Satans Greatest Accomplishment

[MrVicchio]

I believe that Evil, has a face, a name, Satan. Prince of Darkness. I could be wrong, but I do believe, just as Jesus is the Son of God, Evil has a personifiable figure.

What is Satan's greatest accomplishment then? Making sure people quit believing he could even exsist.

Think about it for a moment, throught history, Evil has always been seen as having an entity that promotes said evil through the world of man, who corrupts, twists and ruins mens lives. Satan is the western Christian view of this, the fallen angel cast out of paradise.

For centruies the Churches held the faithful aware of the temptations of Satan, that evil is real, and we should guard against it. But now, we live in a world not of absolutes, black and white, good versus evil, but a world dominated by shades of moral grey. What better enviroment for Satan and his minions to control then one in which there is no "evil" and Satan's just like God, a fairy tale of the enslaved mind reliant upon "religion" to get them through life?

I read this premis somewhere, forgot to save it, but it made me think. Satan can only flourish when no one is looking for him.

[I Hate Pants]

“To see by faith is to close the eye of reason.” - Benjamin Franklin

[DaShiznit]

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/9509/satan3eg.jpg

This is the face if evil, my friends.

EDIT: In other news, Iraqis seem to still believe in the existence of Satan:

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050409/capt.bag12004091107.iraq_bag120.jpg

[JohnClark]

What's your point Vic?

[MrVicchio]

Is it not clear?


When Man turns from God, and religion, he loses the ability to see evil for waht it is. Moral relativism, secularism...

[DaShiznit]

Is it not clear?


When Man turns from God, and religion, he loses the ability to see evil for waht it is. Moral relativism, secularism...
Really? Because I think that evil is constituted by bigots, homophobes and prejudice. Wait...oh my God! That's moral relativism! I'M EVIL!

[MrVicchio]

Really? Because I think that evil is constituted by bigots, homophobes and prejudice. Wait...oh my God! That's moral relativism! I'M EVIL!


Perhaps, but so is escuseing immoral behavior because others tell you it's okay.

[Baneblade]

What about not excusing it because others tell you its not okay?

[_-Gunslinger-_]

If the world had only good, it would eventually fall into chaos. A balance is needed. IMO people who "obey" that balance live full and interesting lives, and in general are productive members of society.



For centruies the Churches held the faithful aware of the temptations of Satan, that evil is real, and we should guard against it. But now, we live in a world not of absolutes, black and white, good versus evil, but a world dominated by shades of moral grey. What better enviroment for Satan and his minions to control then one in which there is no "evil" and Satan's just like God, a fairy tale of the enslaved mind reliant upon "religion" to get them through life?

Thats my problem with orginized religion. They hold you to their beliefs, and everything else is wrong. If man had to be held aware of satan by the acolytes of god, who is to keep the acolytes honest? and then whos to keep the next level up honest? so on and so forth...

Thus it would make sense for everyone to keep themselves honest, not to a churches standard but rather thier OWN beliefs that they came to. With that in mind I believe, and this is the really harsh part, that orginized religion is a tool of the ignorant or lazy, that is satans greatest accomplisment.

[MrVicchio]

I don't like organized religion in many ways, but for centuries they kept people aware of Satan. Look at the 20th Century, some of the worst crimes by governments were committed by secular regimes... China, Russia, NK, Cuba...

That's not to say religious governments have been any better, the Taliban anyone? I know it's not a perfect example, but I brought this up as a discussion on good and evil.

[DaShiznit]

Just a question: if Satan is so clever and such a trickster, how can we be sure that humanity hasn't been tricked into worshipping him (Yahweh) as God?

[firecrackerNC]

I like Satan. God doesn't let me do fun stuff cause its evil but Satans like" Ah who fucking cares do whatever". God is like your parents and Satans like the cool older brother I never had.

[DaShiznit]

I like Satan. God doesn't let me do fun stuff cause its evil but Satans like" Ah who fucking cares do whatever". God is like your parents and Satans like the cool older brother I never had.
OMG U R SO HRDCORE! LOL!

[firecrackerNC]

OMG UR S)( COL! OLL!1!one!!exclamtionmark1!

Im just saying, Id rather live life having fun and making best of things then not being allowed to do anything and have to waste my sundays at church when I could paintball.

[Mag]

http://www.chandleronline.co.uk/Jesus/1.jpg http://www.chandleronline.co.uk/Jesus/10.jpg
http://www.chandleronline.co.uk/Jesus/11.jpg
http://www.chandleronline.co.uk/Jesus/12.jpg
http://www.chandleronline.co.uk/Jesus/13.jpg
http://www.chandleronline.co.uk/Jesus/14.jpg
http://www.chandleronline.co.uk/Jesus/15.jpg
http://www.chandleronline.co.uk/Jesus/16.jpg
http://www.chandleronline.co.uk/Jesus/17.jpg
http://www.chandleronline.co.uk/Jesus/18.jpg
http://www.chandleronline.co.uk/Jesus/19.jpg
http://www.chandleronline.co.uk/Jesus/2.jpg
http://www.chandleronline.co.uk/Jesus/20.jpg
http://www.chandleronline.co.uk/Jesus/21.jpg
http://www.chandleronline.co.uk/Jesus/22.jpg

[DaShiznit]

If I may ask, why is this in the POLITICAL DEBATE forum? Last I checked, Church and State were supposively seperated. Politics is the State aspect of those two.
Apparently, you're not familliar with the modern Republican party.

[Mag]

I changed my post to reflect that.

[ChronoSphere]

Apparently, you're not familliar with the modern Republican party.

Rofl.... so true :P

[JohnClark]

Is it not clear?


When Man turns from God, and religion, he loses the ability to see evil for waht it is. Moral relativism, secularism...

So, prior to man "turning from god" there was no evil?

[MrVicchio]

Uhm, Political debate and religion are allowed here. Both are subjects Hamma I feel would rather not infest his general forum.

[Incompetent]

Satan can only flourish when no one is looking for him.
Just remember, it's even worse when people are.

[MrVicchio]

Just remember, it's even worse when people are.

No, religious Zelots are misguided fools that have been lead down Satan's path willingly by putting their ego first, God second.

[LimpBIT]

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Baneblade]

*Pushes Vic off the Republican Party Bus*

[MrVicchio]

No pushing me off bub.

[Headrattle]

Think about it for a moment, throught history, Evil has always been seen as having an entity that promotes said evil through the world of man, who corrupts, twists and ruins mens lives. Satan is the western Christian view of this, the fallen angel cast out of paradise.

Yes, but at that time EVERYTHING was because of Satan. Plagues, Famine, Whores, Witches. If something bad happened to you, that was because you deserved it. Satan is a Boogie Man. He is there to keep the laity in line. Most of the idiotic double talk in Religion has to do with the Bad guy.

For centruies the Churches held the faithful aware of the temptations of Satan, that evil is real, and we should guard against it. That’s what they keep telling us. And when you think about it, EVERYTHING leads to Satan. Anything that is fun, or interesting, is a path to Satan except going to Church and giving them your money.

But now, we live in a world not of absolutes, black and white, good versus evil, but a world dominated by shades of moral grey.
Yep, and thank God for that! We finally grew up! Finally instead of basing our beliefs on fire and Brimstone, we are actually thinking about stuff. And what we have found that there is very little Evil on Earth. Sure, there are evil people. People who do bad things and must be punished. But many of the things that were previously evil are now just misunderstood. Now, if you aren’t a Christian, then you aren’t automatically Evil, instead you are simply, not a Christian, and a perfectly fine person with different beliefs. Sure, I might feel that those beliefs are wrong, but that doesn’t mean that you are evil.

Today, Evil is Stupidity, Close-mindedness, Misunderstandings, and ignorance. Because usually, that is what evil acts are based on.

What better enviroment for Satan and his minions to control then one in which there is no "evil" and Satan's just like God, a fairy tale of the enslaved mind reliant upon "religion" to get them through life?

I read this premis somewhere, forgot to save it, but it made me think. Satan can only flourish when no one is looking for him.

That may be true. But according to the Fundamentalists I am already on my way to hell no matter what I do. I listen to Heavy Metal (Evil!) Play computer and paper RPG’s (Evil!) accept Homosexuals for who they are (Evil!) Form opinions of my own (Evil!) question authority (Evil!) Don’t go to Church (Evil!) and don’t believe in Satan (Evil!)

So I really don’t have anything to lose anyway.

Hey, if you want to Believe in Satan, great. Go ahead. I don’t mind or even care. I'll even fight for your right to do so. But I personally don’t believe in the Biblical Satan or Hell. The Ancient Hebrew Satan and Hell is more believable to me because there, Satan is just God's servant punishing the wicked. But that would mean that I would have to fully believe in God. And I am still on the fence about that.

So, no. I don’t agree.

[Baneblade]

No pushing me off bub.

I changed my mind anyway, it's easier for the real Republicans to clean up after the Party Bus when ya'll are in one spot goin one direction.

[MrVicchio]

Real Republicans??

I'm sorry did someone pass out rules that I broke somehow?

[Baneblade]

Yes, you know, the majority?

[MrVicchio]

Sobekus, I am kinda fuzzy on all of these claims you have. I still don't know what majority you represent throwing me out of the GOP. Nor the grounds there in. I think you think you are funny I guess.

[Baneblade]

Actually the humor in it was not my intention. I honestly believe my party is off the ball.

[Headrattle]

I'll agree with that. There is too much catering to the Religious Right and not enough care in what the Republicans actually used to stand for. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it wasn't for their stance on social issues, I would be a Republican. But because of them, I am a Moderate.

[MrVicchio]

Actually the humor in it was not my intention. I honestly believe my party is off the ball.


I won't argue the GOP is off track in some areas. President Bush is earning serious shit points with me atm.

[Baneblade]

Some people would ridicule your admission of the faults in the party, but I applaud it.

One who does not see flaws, does not see.

[MrVicchio]

Hey I might be a Die Hard Conservative Republican but that doesn't mean I am a robot that just takes my orders and marches lock step

[Baneblade]

Amen. I'm a Die Hard Moderate Republican (essentially Libertarian), but I can see holes in nearly everything. Sometimes even moderate agendas.

[MrVicchio]

If you were to meet me RL, you'd peg me libertarian, except for the whole drug use thing as the main hell no I have with those people.

Aside that, I am about 75% in agreement with them.

BUT I also know they have no power, seriosuly, that party as a force is nothing. So I hang GOP, but that doens't mean I don't fight to change it.

[_-Gunslinger-_]

If you were to meet me RL, you'd peg me libertarian, except for the whole drug use thing as the main hell no I have with those people.

Aside that, I am about 75% in agreement with them.

BUT I also know they have no power, seriosuly, that party as a force is nothing. So I hang GOP, but that doens't mean I don't fight to change it.


Are you in agreement with libritarians more than GOP then? The only reason I ask is because choosing one party over another based on thier political clout is stupid because its part of the reason why weaker parties are weak.

[Baneblade]

If you were to meet me RL, you'd peg me libertarian, except for the whole drug use thing as the main hell no I have with those people.

Aside that, I am about 75% in agreement with them.

BUT I also know they have no power, seriosuly, that party as a force is nothing. So I hang GOP, but that doens't mean I don't fight to change it.

Only reason I went GOP is I might actually want to be a Senator one day...or try.

[Atog]

for the love of god, please add an apostrephy to this thread's title. It's driving me crazy.
Satan's greatest accomplishment-the downfall of grammar in the United States

[MrVicchio]

Are you in agreement with libritarians more than GOP then? The only reason I ask is because choosing one party over another based on thier political clout is stupid because its part of the reason why weaker parties are weak.


No, the clout is only part of it. The biggest hit on the Libertarians is the fact they keep trying to

A: Push All Drugs to be Legal (or most which I have a HUGE prob with )

B: Running a presidential canidate... who tend to be a bit looney IMHO.


Stay local build a power base and drop the stupid drug thing... I might switch parties.

Till then they are weak because they lack the appela to get me to waste (for now it would be a waste) on a party in capable of genereating any real political clout.

[Electrofreak]

For centruies the Churches held the faithful aware of the temptations of Satan, that evil is real, and we should guard against it. But now, we live in a world not of absolutes, black and white, good versus evil, but a world dominated by shades of moral grey. What better enviroment for Satan and his minions to control then one in which there is no "evil" and Satan's just like God, a fairy tale of the enslaved mind reliant upon "religion" to get them through life?

I'd like to point out the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Dark Ages in general, the Salem Witch Trials, and Hitlers genocide of the **** in the name of Christianity to name a few.

Yeah. The Church REALLY does a great job of preventing the spread of evil.
:rolleyes:

This is why I'm an atheist and proud of it.

[Atog]

for the love of god, please add an apostrephy to this thread's title. It's driving me crazy.
Satan's greatest accomplishment-the downfall of grammar in the United States

i'm freaking out, man.

[MrVicchio]

I'd like to point out the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Dark Ages in general, the Salem Witch Trials, and Hitlers genocide of the **** in the name of Christianity to name a few.

Yeah. The Church REALLY does a great job of preventing the spread of evil.
:rolleyes:

This is why I'm an atheist and proud of it.


No one said religion was perfect. Nor invulnerable to ignorance, hate stupidity and yes, the influences of Evil ala Satan's grip.

To turn your back on God because man has from time to time lost sight of the teachings of Jesus Christ is a poor way to live life.

[internetn]

No one said religion was perfect. Nor invulnerable to ignorance, hate stupidity and yes, the influences of Evil ala Satan's grip.

To turn your back on God because man has from time to time lost sight of the teachings of Jesus Christ is a poor way to live life.


It's hard being minority isn't it Mr. V? Don't worry I'm one of the few that agree with you.

I believe it's wrong to be homosexual, but my aunt is a lesbain and I don't hate them, or tell them there going to hell.
My best friend is addicted to pot, I simply try to tell him thats not the right way to go.
son on and so forth..

Why do you all have such a problem with religion (i can't even just say christianity, because most religion supports being a moral person).. Just because it teaches that some things are wrong, and maybe the fun things aren't right doesn't make it oppresive and whatnot... I'd say a little moe if I didn't have to go to work

[Baneblade]

Well many problems originating from religion are the fact that they impose their morals on others. Just look at all the crap goin on now.

[MrVicchio]

Well many problems originating from religion are the fact that they impose their morals on others. Just look at all the crap goin on now.
Do they impose thier morals, or is your problem the fact they HAVE moral standards and you aren't sure you are ready, willing or able to live by them?


I think alot fo the anti-religious drive comes from today's "do whatever you want it's okay" mindset of many(on the left yes) and that's far easier for people to adapt too then to live life by the moral guidelines of thier parents church.

"gee, do I have hot sex with the hottie wanting my body and show my friends I am a stud, or do I save myself for Marriage like the Bible says...."


A universal question age old, but today's TV, Music, Movies and schools... make it VERY hard for people to choose God. It's easier to list the litany of problems over the 2000 years with religion and the bad apples today thent o keep oneself on the path God has laid out for us all.

[DaShiznit]

"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him."

-Nietzsche

[JohnClark]

Do they impose thier morals, or is your problem the fact they HAVE moral standards and you aren't sure you are ready, willing or able to live by them?


I think alot fo the anti-religious drive comes from today's "do whatever you want it's okay" mindset of many(on the left yes) and that's far easier for people to adapt too then to live life by the moral guidelines of thier parents church.

"gee, do I have hot sex with the hottie wanting my body and show my friends I am a stud, or do I save myself for Marriage like the Bible says...."


A universal question age old, but today's TV, Music, Movies and schools... make it VERY hard for people to choose God. It's easier to list the litany of problems over the 2000 years with religion and the bad apples today thent o keep oneself on the path God has laid out for us all.

Or, perhaps, we live in an age where it's finally become socially acceptable to cast off the yoke of religion. It's easy enough to say, "You just don't want to play by the rules." However, for me at least, I don't believe because I see no reason to believe. I'm not sitting here saying, "Well, god exists, but I don't want to follow his rules so I'm going to be an atheist," and I doubt that anyone else is saying that.

[MrVicchio]

Faith is a hard thing for many today, in this world of instant gratification and high distraction. "what has God done for me?" is the question my Athiest friends most often ask me when we discuss this subject. People want everything, now, in front of them. It's sad really, the proof of God is all around you, inside you, yet most people choose not to ask the qeustion seriously, or bother to look and see.

It's far easier to feel the rebel throwing off the "yoke" of religion...

If you really want to toss the Yoke of Religion, you abandon the Churches and Organized religions that worry more about themselves and their power then they do about God. I have, I gave up the Catholic Church.

That is tossing the Yoke of religion.

Jesus frees us, enlightenns us, and loves us. There is no Yoke giving oneself to Jesus Christ.

[JohnClark]

There's also no evidence that god exists.

[MrVicchio]

There's also no evidence that god exists.
Sure there is. Look around you, look inside yourself.

There is God, "Let he who has eyes see"

[internetn]

There's also no evidence that god exists.


He might not exist to you but some of us still cling to the fleating hope that he does..

About morals.. Would you want your wife/girlfriend cheating on you? If she did that would be breaking some sort of moral code? Bah, and we don't need morals..

Also many people believe that the main cause of the Roman empires fall was the lack of morality of its citizins.. I think that could happen with all these great nations if we don't watch out, in fact its already happening

[JohnClark]

He might not exist to you but some of us still cling to the fleating hope that he does..

About morals.. Would you want your wife/girlfriend cheating on you? If she did that would be breaking some sort of moral code? Bah, and we don't need morals..

Also many people believe that the main cause of the Roman empires fall was the lack of morality of its citizins.. I think that could happen with all these great nations if we don't watch out, in fact its already happening

Ok, but what does any of that have to do with believing in god?

[internetn]

Err.. well sorry bout that, only the first part about some of us actually do believe that there is a God out there that cares for what happens in this life...

I can't say that I'm a good christian, cause I still do bad things, but I try not to. I think God understands that sometime we mess up, even if its on purpose.

Besides what is the point of living if you don't have someone to believe in

[steeldragon01]

Agree, dont you want to believe there is an awesome place to go after you die.

[DaShiznit]

Also many people believe that the main cause of the Roman empires fall was the lack of morality of its citizins.. I think that could happen with all these great nations if we don't watch out, in fact its already happening
That's right. It was morality that lead the visigoths to sack Rome. Not the abundance of incompetent emperors or over-reliance on mercenaries. It was moral bullshit.

[Knightwyvern]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnClark
There's also no evidence that god exists.
Today 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by MrVicchio
Sure there is. Look around you, look inside yourself. There is God, "Let he who has eyes see"

...But you are not giving any reasons as to why your statement is truthful, no evidence.

That's what is known as "blind faith." In other words, you accept something to be true, and then never change your mind, even if no evidence or factual information supports this belief. I can't prove thatthis description fits you, but from what I have seen so far, it is the conclusion i have come to. If you have an arguement, would you mind presenting it? It would help me for one understand your point of view, and I would appreciate it.

[internetn]

That's right. It was morality that lead the visigoths to sack Rome. Not the abundance of incompetent emperors or over-reliance on mercenaries. It was moral bullshit.

I could careless about the visigoths.. but being that the Romans relied on mercs to do their work for them instead of still having the pro. army's of the past, who dare I say, had a stronger connection with roman gods thus making them a little more moral, caused the fall of the empire..

Incompetent emperors? Nero was very incompetent, and very immoral, and hell he set fire to half of rome just to root out christianity? I religion thats founded on principles of kindness?! Absurd!

As I said earlier, without morals the mighty nations will crumble...

[DaShiznit]

I could careless about the visigoths.. but being that the Romans relied on mercs to do their work for them instead of still having the pro. army's of the past, who dare I say, had a stronger connection with roman gods thus making them a little more moral, caused the fall of the empire..

Incompetent emperors? Nero was very incompetent, and very immoral, and hell he set fire to half of rome just to root out christianity? I religion thats founded on principles of kindness?! Absurd!

As I said earlier, without morals the mighty nations will crumble...
Morals have absolutlely nothing to do with the army. Anyway, Roman society had always been immoral. During their most prosperous time, the Pax Romana, there were fantastical amounts of blood shed in the colleseum and crazy sex orgies in Rome. Moral indeed. Also, when Rome collapsed, most of its emerors were by that time Christian. These men who were supposedly so moral could not save Rome.

[Kam]

There is no way to prove that God exists or doesn't exist. The entire idea is something for each person to decide on, you can think of it as a crutch for hard times or a source of hope whenever you need it. Knowing the answer to the "existing of God" question is not the point. We are here, we exist, and we will continue breeding until a meteor hits the earth or something. There is no point in fighting in the name of one faith or another because it is a question of a single persons beliefs. Accept people for what they are and move the fuck on.

[321]

/agree

[hex222]

evil and good are just a fault in humanity, i say, you can do anything you want, as long as i don't find out about it or become influenced by it, whether directly or indirectly, whether purposefully or accidentally, unless if i first state otherwise

[spoonkiny]

uhhhhhhh huh?

[hex222]

or in other words, look at me and i'll get you thrown away...

[Headrattle]

Do they impose thier morals, or is your problem the fact they HAVE moral standards and you aren't sure you are ready, willing or able to live by them?

Morals, like the speed of light, are a local event. My morals differ from your morals, who differ from the morals of the Administration, who differ from the Pope's morals. I am an agnostic, and I am questionable on the subject of God, but that doesn't mean that I don't have morals. I simply have different morals from those who would ban gay marriage, and then turn around and pray for the Death of a Supreme Court member.

Do some religious people impose their morals on others?
Yes. Yes they do. All of the freaking time.

I think alot fo the anti-religious drive comes from today's "do whatever you want it's okay" mindset of many(on the left yes) and that's far easier for people to adapt too then to live life by the moral guidelines of thier parents church.
And I would disagree. People who don't believe in God can still be a good person and do good things. Almost all of the agnostics of atheists are like this. In fact, in my experience, the ones that are more likely to commit a crime and act immorally are the ones who believe in God. Go figure. People become Agnostic or Atheist because they realize that there might not be a God. They question and their either can't reach a conclusion or they reach the conclusion that God doesn't exist. Atheists and Agnostics simply don't reach the same conclusion as Christians or any other religious group. They notice the hypocrisy of those in the church. They read the bible and realize that it doesn't make any damn sense. But they don't do it so that they can party more.

There is some animosity against religious people by non-religious people and that is because the fundamentalists are always attacking us. They are always imposing their religion upon us. We get annoyed and we start to point out our opinion. After all, they had complete disregard for my beliefs, why should I respect theirs? So we start to point out the problems with the religion in question and MAN do they not like that!

But that has NOTHING to do with morals.

"gee, do I have hot sex with the hottie wanting my body and show my friends I am a stud, or do I save myself for Marriage like the Bible says...."
Yet, plenty of people that go to church say something similar. Why? because they don't take their own morals seriously.

A universal question age old, but today's TV, Music, Movies and schools... make it VERY hard for people to choose God. It's easier to list the litany of problems over the 2000 years with religion and the bad apples today thent o keep oneself on the path God has laid out for us all.

The Path God laid out for us makes no fucking sense. In the words of George Carlin.

Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you.

Those who believe in the Christian Religion and those who actually fallow the plan that God lays out aren't always the same people. In fact, more often then not those who believe in a Religion don't follow a damn thing it says except when they can warp the words in order to kill their neighbors.

[MrVicchio]

HR You quote a Comedian to make a point.... lol funny!

So what your saying is that since there are Christians (so called atleast) that pay lip service to the Churches and the Bible, but do thier own thing, it's no different then an athiest that pays no attention to start with doing thier own thing.

Good and Evil are not relative HR.

[Kam]

In a hundred years religion and race will be so mixed up, no one will be able to tell who is what. Therefore, it doesn't matter.

[Headrattle]

HR You quote a Comedian to make a point.... lol funny!
He is isn't he? He makes a good point boiled down into a few lines though.

So what your saying is that since there are Christians (so called atleast) that pay lip service to the Churches and the Bible, but do thier own thing, it's no different then an athiest that pays no attention to start with doing thier own thing.

Again you state that Athiests don't lead moral lives. Yet many of them do. Religion and morality have little to do with each other. This has been proved by simply opening up the history books and looking at it. Some Athiests live moral lives, some don't. Some Christians lead moral lives. Some don't. Keep in mind that most athiests and agnostics have given religion a chance. They just decided that it isn't worth it.

That doesn't mean that they are evil.
That doesn't mean that they are immoral.
That doesn't mean that they can't be good people.
And just because you are a Christian doesn't mean that you aren't an evil, immoral, asshole. These two things don't have much to do with each other.

Good and Evil are not relative HR.
That may be true, but morality is relative. Morality is one's definition of what he believes is good and evil. What you are stating is that your definition of good and evil is the correct one while everyone else's isn't. That is a little full of your self don't you think?

[Rbstr]

Why can't people just go about there own business? If it doesn't hurt you or someone else why should you care.

Some couple gets together for a session of baby-making out of marriage(totaly concentual, let say they are 26 years old, and it's repsonsibly done with birth control ect.(or are you agasint that too?)). Ask yourself, does that hurt you? Does it in any way effect you at all? Does it even hurt your chance to go to heaven(assuming your version of religion if correct)?

Now ask the same questions with say gays or lesbians.

Why do you insist on banning homosexuals from having anything near a legal "mariage" status? Have any hetero mariages been in the least effected by two gays marrying? I think if you wanted to protect the sancity of marriage you'd ban divorses

[Derfud]

I gave my life to Jesus Christ, but he returned it for in-store credit and bought a new plasma TV instead. Good on him too.

[hex222]

i say get rid of legal marraige, if all people are gonna be equal, then marital status is a status we could do without...

i'm an atheist, i think, but i believe in god, i believe in all gods, i believe everything is true in some way, in some other existence, but we don't allow unfair slavery in modern times, so why should we bow down as slaves to this 'God', who has been to lazy to show his existence atall, when he apparntly is the ruler of everything and anything and is all powerful.
if some guy came up to me on the street and told me to follow him and do what he wants me to do, i would not, so why should i do so to somebody who i cannot see, but have to work for through other people who i have no proper respect for anyway

as so many people say, 'he's never done me any favours, why should i do him the favour of dedicating my life to him'

[Kam]

Ya and while we're at it, lets lose any sense of grounding. I'd like to tell my kids that their parents will be there, which is kind of hard to do with no legal attachment. If equality is what you want, then different religions and races need to stop vocalizing their special wants and needs.

[internetn]

lol, its horrible how many athiests (SP) are on this board, not to say that you are bad people.

To me, I would rather live MY life by a code that I believe follows certain moral beliefs. Though I think gay marraige is wrong, I won't stop it.. (even if I find it disgusting)...Mainly because you can't stop it.

BTW in the bible it does say that NO man is without sin, so just cause we call ourselves christians doesn't mean that we actually can be completely holy and just, we can try, but it is impossible to live a perfect life. If we had no brains and were mindless slaves, then it would be very possible to live a just life. But God gave us a choice, and because we choose him, he loves us and excepts us into his house..

I really can't think of anything else to say but I hope that all of you one day will experience the love of jesus christ, and I say that from my heart to.

[Baneblade]

I'm too lazy to be Athiest.

I'm Agnostic...aka don't care.

[Headrattle]

I really can't think of anything else to say but I hope that all of you one day will experience the love of jesus christ, and I say that from my heart to.

I will respond to this with this little essey I found.

How to listen to an atheist

John S. Wilkins

In Western society, or in Islamic society, or in Eastern society, an atheist is someone who has had to think through the issues of their local religious consensus and others available in order to come to a conclusion about the way the universe is.

This means they have had to work at it. It is not easy to go against the conventions and mores of your community and of all of them religion is perhaps the hardest to question, let alone discard. Religions act like social and political glue. To become an atheist is, at the very best, to become isolated or excluded from the values and ideas of those with whom they must share their life. It can mean that one fails to agree with one's spouse, family or friends.

So you should pay attention to those who do this, just as, in an atheist society, you should pay attention to those who disregard that consensus and become religious. Truth can often be approached by thinking about alternatives and how they reflect back on the easy assumptions which you got from your parents, your school, your society, or your priest.

But dissenters against the core beliefs of a society can become bitter. Discrimination is rife against minorities - real minorities, not the faux minorities of the Christian or Islamic majority, which have to assert that True Believers are really very rare, but the minorities that find they cannot access the same rights or resources that the religious can. That find they have no place in a democratic legislature because they are atheists. Whose children can be bullied with impunity and the tacit complicity of the authorities, all of whom, unsurprisingly, are religious in the West.

So when you discuss ideas with an atheist, assume they have been bitten before by the Noisy Majority. Assume they have reasons to stick by something that gives them so much grief, and to which they assign so much worth they will not take the easy way out.

Perhaps the atheist is onto something; perhaps just talking with one will make you reassess the foundations for your own religious views and discard the silly, contingent or contradictory aspects in favour of a more mature faith. Perhaps they will open your eyes. Perhaps you will open theirs, but only if you listen with respect and care.

John, an apatheist.

I would also like to say that Atheists have morals. They are just different morals then yours. And sometimes they are better ones.

[Incompetent]

To me, I would rather live MY life by a code that I believe follows certain moral beliefs.
Heres a fun activity. Dredge up around twenty people and line them up. Have the person at the back of the line whisper a short phrase to the person in front of him, who in turn passes it on to the person in front of him, and so on and so on. When it gets to the front, see if it in any way resembles the original phrase.

Now, try the same excercise, spread it out over thousands of years, add in a very long interval of time between when the person hears the phrase and has to repeat it. And give them all an incentive to change it for personal gain. That is, effectively, what you are deriving your code from, and more like then not the same place you came across the arrogant assumption that it was the only valid code in existence and that no one elses counts.
I'm Agnostic...aka don't care.
Agnostic = win, someones probably got something close to the right idea, but everyones too busy lying about everyone who doesn't agree with them (and probably themselves) to everyone (probably including themselves) for anyone to figure it out.

[Derfud]

I agree with incomp. Don't take everything the bible (holy book) says for granted, sure some of the ideas still apply today, but others are just plain absurd, remember we know a lot more today than we did 2000 years ago.

It is important to diversify yourself, by your own means, not by someone else's.

[hex222]

yeah, back then 50 year old men would marry 12 year old girls...

the thing about religions is that it is not your experience or your families experience that teaches you and makes the rules, its a bunch of 2000 year old **** and romans, and jesus wasn't born on the 25 of december, thats a pagan festival, and sundays were pagan events aswell, which is why the sabbath was moved from saturday...

coming to a conclusion on my beliefs, either everything is the result of a beings creativeness and intelligence, in which case there would be more beings of that kind, unless if we're saying god is a nazi who killed all his peer's, which i know some people would take offence to, or everything is one huge accident in a huge feild of nothingness, i'm tilting towards the accident thing, and if you don't beleive god is a nazi, perhaps you should open you mind to the fact that he might be lieing about his true power... or that it is all just an accident.

also, it seems one word can sum up most of the christians here, hypocritical, it's like one of those pyramid subscribing systems where if you want to sign up you need to get your freinds to sign up, then their freinds, and so on. stop converting and wait for the apocalypse if you believe it will ahppen, if we deserve hell, then let us go there, perhaps when we have proof you're saving us, we'll all understand and change our views...

it looks as if this thread is dying now, so i'll end it there...