The Speed of Combat

[Peacemaker]

I feel this is something that was very important for Planetside and is equally if not more important to Planetside:Next/2 (Further to be called N/2). I imagine some people may be wondering what I mean. Let me compare some games to give you an idea of "The Speed of Combat"

Battlefield Series to Call of Duty Series (MP only)

Battlefield is a game where if you stop and look around you, you can see tactics unfold. You can see an enemy flanking you. You can figure out that theres a gunship in the area before he kills you. You have time to look for a launcher to take it out. When the fighting gets up close, you die. You die fast. You respawn within 30 seconds - 1 minute of the action most of the time. Death sucks, its down time, you have to start over somewhere the enemy knows is a good chance of you being, and is probably watching. Life spans in this game ON FOOT as well as in a vehicle are possible to last half an hour. Its not incredibly difficult to hit a target at range in this game, but it is harder than being up close where the speed is very fast.

Call of Duty on the other hand is Run, shoot at bad guy, die. Respawn die within 1 minute be respawned again. The pace is incredibly fast. Speed is almost always very high. There is no stopping, there is no setting up in a tactical position with a group, if you do, its just you or one other guy, usually to die soon. You dont hold a building that over looks a bridge like you do in Battlefield, you run in and look for people to kill while you glance out the windows to see for targets of opportunity. You may die 5 times in a 20 minute round and have done well.

Planetside

Planetsides Speed of Combat was even slower than Battlefields. You didn't want to die, because if you died you have to walk across the sniper infested no mans land between the tower and your objective, or the AMS. Respawning could take 30 seconds sometimes. Vehicles lost had timers. Just like in battlefield you can think about what your doing, what your squad is doing, what the enemy squad could be doing, and use tactics. Flanking worked. Stormtroopers attacking from the air worked. Vehicle and infantry integration worked.

Close combat was slightly slower than Battlefields and I feel it was just about perfect. Choke points existed, 5 guys could hold off 15 at the back door of a base. The enemy didn't run so fast and strafe back and forth so fast you couldn't hit him. They had to STOP to fire their weapons. You couldn't fire accurately on the move, and I think that above everything is most important here. The only thing I don't think was so good with all of this was sniper rifles, when you moved them the COF bloomed out too much, making shots on moving targets harder as you had to aim infront of them, stop moving your mouse, and wait for the cursor to settle, and they cross the magic leading point and you fire. I think if they had halfed the "Moving gun COF" it woulda been perfect.

I really hope they get this right. The Speed of Combat in PS was near on perfect. This is one of the things SOE needs to nail with a laser guided hammer if they want N/2 to be a hit. Especially with the old community.

Comments?

[Grimster]

Well I agree with you those parts were perfect about Planetside. I hope that SOE manages to capture that feeling and sense of atmosphere you have in the old game.

I also loved how organised squads would benefit your side against a side that were not organised.

[Insinfinity]

I think you're spot on.

I used the same example to describe it to someone who hasn't played Planetside before. I own the latest versions of Battlefield BC2 and Call of Duty. I always end up going back to Battlefield because even though the Call of duty games are good, in the long I find them unrewarding and a bit boring.

I've been thinking since the announcement and I cant really pin point anything drastic they should change. If anything I think they should reboot it back to the original weapons and vehicles (pre bfr and core) and strongly consider if the community needs or wants additional stuff in the future, update the graphics a bit but leave them scalable so it can run on older machines and increase the pop caps and stability with new server tech.

Im sure everyone who used to play PS will be falling over them selves to come back then, and they will bringing a new generation of players with them.

[Sifer2]

Well if they just recreate it without adding much there is no reason to believe it wont do just as poorly as it did before. Unless Next is free to play or something.

I believe Peacemaker is right that the pace of Planetside was interesting/tactical an appeals to many people. But as he points out also death was painful an perhaps too cumbersome at times. Which probably also turned away a lot of people. So its an area that actually could be improved.

It's hard to make any suggestions though until they give real info an what the game is about.

[Tikuto]

Medics. Their role could be greatly refined for just to sustain battles.
Medics could give the 'downed' player a disposable item for them to use on themselves instead of having the Medic poke an item in you waiting to be shot. This disposable item gives the 'downed' player their own timing and instancey of revival with a hazey adrenaline-like visual effect.

The ammunition charges for this disposal item is used it two ways:
It is administered on 'live' players. (Medic runs around poking people)
It is dispensed to 'downed' players. (Medic runs around throwing injectors to people)
Some vehicles or weapons may completely obliterate players denying any revival.

This ought to greatly reduce that lengthy speed of battle.

[BlazingSun]

Personally I would like to see a slight increase in the 'Speed of Combat' as you put it.


Slightly faster time to kill especially in Infantry combat


Faster respawn!


Faster revive of fallen soldiers.


If there will be stamina system again, it has to refill much faster than it did before - just beeing able to walk around is lame (don't implement things like Personal shield though)



To keep things balanced:

No instant kill weapons/grenades/rockets for Infantry.


Better (smaller) hitboxes of characters and a better crosshair.


More cover and less plain open field.



In addition, I would really like to see a sprint ability, like in Battlefield for every soldier! If you think about it, the time it took you to get back into action in Planetside was just too long. I'd prefer some more action this time around.


PS: No more 15 minute hack timers for normal bases. What a waste of time that is, to sit around for so long!

Edit: PPS: on a second thought: maybe the hack timer should change, depending if there are enemies still in the base or not ... if the spawnroom is still intact or not. No enemies in the base = faster hack timer. Maybe have a little control console in the spawnroom: when the base gets hacked and there are defenders in the spawnroom, an advanced hacker can slow the hack timer down by hacking that console. From 10-15 or 5-15 minutes.

[Hamma]

I always felt PS's combat speed was perfect as well. But the death timers could be a drag often times.

While we are on this discussion, Smed himself commented on this in his blog:

Planetside had a lot of really great things about it, but it also had some frustrating things. The whole Sanctuary concept is something that slowed things down too much. We also didn't get people back into the action quickly enough.

http://john-smedley.livejournal.com/833.html

This makes me think they have other ideas this time around as far as getting people into battle quicker. The recent Galaxy news may also support this comment.

[2coolforu]

Main things

TTK (Time to kill)

Time to kill was fine, it was a large amount compared to a game like Call of Duty where its something like 0.25 seconds for some of the guns. For close range HA it rested around 1.2 seconds however with medikits this generally rose to around 1.5 ish.

However in Call Of Duty you are fighting 2 or 3 people one on one at most, not 200 man fragfests. If you make the TTK twitch style then people will just get fed up of dying constantly. The TTK needs to be relatively high so that people can manouver under fire and not just instantly die, the TTK was that high so that you could enter a battle and not just feel like you achieved nothing when you get instagibbed, it's also the reason why alot of instagib weapons were hated. Keep the TTK the same, if the battles are going to get bigger then lower damage degredation with range. Guns become peashooters at long range, perhaps if this wasn't present people would be happier.

Call of Duty style vs Planetside style

Ok, I've never been a fan of Call of Duty, the only ones I liked are 2 and 4, even then 'liked' is pushing it. They are fun to blow off steam but they don't require any depth or major skill and are plagued by balance issues. We don't want planetside to be full of instakill grenades and rocket launchers. The reason Call Of Duty is so popular, especially among the consoles, is because there isn't that much skill involved, there is some on the PC but on Xbox 360 your weapon/perk choice has far much more effect.

One of my favourite things about planetside was that the devs had the balls to make rockets worthless against infantry and grenades only moderately damage. Why are these brilliant ideas you may ask? Because they stopped people killwhoring AV on infantry for cheap instakills and made grenades actually fill the role they are made for Clearing rooms. Here I can believe realism should be sacrificied for balance, rockets would never be deployed at close range against infantry because they are expensive assets for dealing with armor, with Planetside's system people saved their AV for vehicles and MAX's and used their guns for infantry combat, it was a welcome relief from grenadespam games. Grenades were also good, they were used to stop people from holding entrenched positions which is their role IRL and they were effective at this job, the 30 odd HP damage they would do to the rexo gave you the edge and prevented corner humping, if they were made to do too much damage people would just use them instead of guns, E.G. CALL OF DUTY.

Cone of Fire
The cone of fire system was a very good idea, this should be kept in the game. It made tactics key and also made the various sandbags/crates placed around useful, people would crouch and fire from covered positions and it made battles good. It also added a major skill of Planetside which was recoil control, it's also key to maintaining large battles because if everyone has pinpoint accurate laserpointer guns then it would simply be impossible to advance because you'd get mowed down as soon as you left cover. The CoF system should definately make a return.

Respawn Time
Respawn time was fine, if you didn't constantly die it was around 3 seconds at a good base. 15-20 seconds at an AMS, 5-10 seconds at an un-bonused base. If you can't wait 3-15 seconds then you are playing the wrong game. The timers in Planetside, be they hack, respawn or vehicle timers were the pacing of the battle. They prevented everything becoming to chaotic and too crowded. If respawn timers are too high then attacking becomes to easy, bases lose their advantage over forward respawn points and attacking the interior of a base would be impossible. It would also diminish already underused roles like advanced medic.

Leave the respawn as is.



More cover in fields is a good idea though, with the better, newer technology how about adding some thick undergrowth to sneak through? We have an alien world, how about some Pandora style Jungle? I'd love to see a Mountainous landzone, seeing as we can now have far more detail how about the swamps of Hossin get decorated with weeds and marshland so special forces teams can wade through it concealed to their waists? That would be BAD-ASS.

Or what about some silent attack Dinghy's? Like a PBX or something, then add in more rivers. They would be friggin awesome for silent attacks! Or perhaps we could have frogmen, or some kind of Force Recon divers for sneaky sneaky into enemy riverside bases/ports!

[Bags]

The speed of combat is fine as is. Only tweak I wouldn't mind is slightly faster respawn timers.

Also, maybe give everyone access to a no weapon, no mowing power ATV.

[Gogita]

I really liked the pace of Planetside, more slow, tactic based instead of fast reaction skill based.
As Peacemaker stated very well, Planetside is not BF or CoD, both much faster shooters. Imagine if the TTK of Planetside would be the same in as in CoD, imagine trying getting in a well defended back door.... Or one skilled person taking down a group of 5 people. This is not something that should occur in Planetside. If you want it to be as CoD or BF, then play those games! No, the "slow" killing in Planetside is the right way of how it should be in a game as in Planetside.

About the respawn times, they are fine in my opinion. If it was made faster, taking over towers or bases will be too frustrating I think. It would be nice if SOE can experiment with different times during the beta to see what is the perfect amount of seconds.
One thing that I would change, is the penalty on the respawn. I think they should change the respawn penalty system in such a way, so when you die in the first 5 seconds after you respawn, there should not a penalty. One of the things that frustrated me A LOT was when I just spawned at an AMS, and half a second later, it's OS'd, which gives me an extra 10 seconds of respawn...

[Bags]

One thing that I would change, is the penalty on the respawn. I think they should change the respawn penalty system in such a way, so when you die in the first 5 seconds after you respawn, there should not the a penalty. One of the things that frustrated me A LOT was when I just spawned at an AMS, and half a second later, it's OS'd, which gives me an extra 10 seconds of respawn...

This. Nothing more annoying than dying the second you respawn and then getting a huge respawn penalty.

[Peacemaker]

Its annoying but it prevents you from spilling out of the spawn tubes every 3 seconds when weve left one up so you cant spawn at a different spot. :D Sorry DOOD. But its gotta stay. Im glad everyone feels for the most part the same. I think the respawn timers were just fine. If it aint broke dont fix it. Making them shorter could make attacking hard as hell.

Edit: Although attacking was too easy. TBH I think they should better flexible spawn timers. For example, 100 TR defend against 50 NC. NC spawn times are faster. But for 150 attackers vs 100 defenders spawn times should be normal (IRL 4 men are required for every 1 enemy to assault a defended position, bunker, house, super fortress... it matters not) 250 attackers to 100 defenders should make a faster defender spawn time. Spawn times should not be increased because of population only by frequency of death (IN AVERAGE, NOT JUST THE PAST THREE DEATHS) If your dumb enough to spawn out of a camped tube ten times your spawn time should increase. But if you run out the door all the way to the back door and get shot in the face twice, your respawn rate should not significantly change. If you make spawning slower because there is more of your team then people will get mad they are waiting 35 seconds to spawn. This makes defending a little easier, with "more" men to throw at the attacking enemy. Fastest spawn time 7.5 seconds, stock 15%, and someone with an average life spawn of 1 minute for the past 10 lives should be somewhere around 30.

[Bags]

Its annoying but it prevents you from spilling out of the spawn tubes every 3 seconds when weve left one up so you cant spawn at a different spot. :D Sorry DOOD. But its gotta stay. Im glad everyone feels for the most part the same. I think the respawn timers were just fine. If it aint broke dont fix it. Making them shorter could make attacking hard as hell.



So they shouldn't fix spawning at an ams and instantly dying adding a timer because if given the option idiots will keep respawning in a tube that's being camped?

The logic some people use is mind boggling.

[Peacemaker]

If your an attacker and your killing people as they spawn, and they spawn 2 - 5 seconds after you kill them you CANNOT keep up if theres alot of them. If there is no penalty for these defenders to spawn into death, then they will do it untill they have retaken the spawn room or the attackers blow the tubes. The rate of spawn will be too high. I do not understand why you think this is illogical. Sorry AMS's arnt supposed to respawn you in 5 - 10 seconds. They are mobile spawn points and should have disadvantages over normal spawns. One of them is longer spawn times, and the possibility you could spawn while the AMS is getting raped by a group of prowlers.

[Gogita]

If your an attacker and your killing people as they spawn, and they spawn 2 - 5 seconds after you kill them you CANNOT keep up if theres alot of them. If there is no penalty for these defenders to spawn into death, then they will do it untill they have retaken the spawn room or the attackers blow the tubes. The rate of spawn will be too high. I do not understand why you think this is illogical. Sorry AMS's arnt supposed to respawn you in 5 - 10 seconds. They are mobile spawn points and should have disadvantages over normal spawns. One of them is longer spawn times, and the possibility you could spawn while the AMS is getting raped by a group of prowlers.

I can see more or less what your argument is, but I think there is a simple solution for this:
Make it that if you die within the first 5 seconds after spawning you do not get any penalty, but if you die again within the next 5 seconds in your next spawn, the penalty will hold.
The first time that the person dies instantly will make sure that that person knows that the spawn location is certain death and if he wants to spawn there again, it's at his own risk.

EDIT:
One thing that all the sudden popped up in my head is the way how penalties were given (could be wrong, please correct me then). As far as I know a penalty is given if you die twice or more in a row if you do not kill anyone, no matter the time span in between. So even if the last time you died was 15 minutes or more ago, just because you didn't make any kill in that timespan, you get a penalty due to "frequent" deaths.

I think the death penalty system should be something like this:
-Died within 5 seconds after you spawn?
-Previous death also within 5 seconds? Penalty on top of your previous spawn time.
-Previous death not within 5 seconds? No penalty
-Died between 5 seconds and 10 minutes after you spawn? Penalty on top of your previous spawn time.
Died after more than 10 minutes after you spawn? No penalty

I'm not 100% sure yet if 10 minutes is too long or too short, but this can be beta tested of course.

What do you guys think?

[Bags]

I can see more or less what your argument is, but I think there is a simple solution for this:
Make it that if you die within the first 5 seconds after spawning you do not get any penalty, but if you die again within the next 5 seconds in your next spawn, the penalty will hold.
The first time that the person dies instantly will make sure that that person knows that the spawn location is certain death and if he wants to spawn there again, it's at his own risk.



This sounds fine. I hate spawning at an AMS as it explodes and seeing a 30 second respawn timer.

[Traak]

This sounds fine. I hate spawning at an AMS as it explodes and seeing a 30 second respawn timer.

Eliminate OS's. Make it so if you want to destroy an AMS then you have to shoot it. OS's, if they exist, unless they are a once-a-day thing, will become too numerous and annoying just like they are now.

But, the best solution is no OS's, period. No one would unsubscribe because they didn't exist.

[Sirisian]

Eliminate OS's. Make it so if you want to destroy an AMS then you damn well have to shoot it. OS's, if they exist, unless they are a once-a-day thing, will become too numerous and annoying just like they are now.

But, the best solution is no OS's, period. No one would unsubscribe because they didn't exist.
That's crazy talk. The counter to AMSs was the OS. You can pull an AMS every few minutes and the cooldown for an OS is huge so the AMS always wins out.

The reason there are more OSs is because pretty much everyone can use them.

However, I wouldn't be against making the AMSs bubble invulnerable to an OS strike using some silly explanation like "the bubble grounds the OS strike". That would leave the job of destroying AMS to artillery which never really took a large role in Planetside mostly because no one carried around waypoint things. Speaking of that I hope those laser things are built into the suits now.

[Tikuto]

OS's, if they exist, unless they are a once-a-day thing, will become too numerous and annoying just like they are now.

But, the best solution is no OS's, period. No one would unsubscribe because they didn't exist.Not the best solution. We like them. What we don't like is exactly what you've stated: they're too excessive and uncontrolled.

Zone-wide control systems applied to super-powers including the use of BFRs if the devs ever reconsider them. This could lead to altering how command works, which I have already contributed to also.

[2coolforu]

Orbital strikes are there for culling AMS populations, like tikuto said the only reason they are annoying is because 8 years into Planetside the population is 75% CR5's, 25% CR4's so the spam of OS'es is ridiculous.

In early days Planetside (2003 - early 04) there were barely any CR5's. OS'es were rare, just make it slightly harder to get CR5 and introduce limiting factors on OS.

How about a jamming module for bases that prevents OSes, or you have to take a certain amount of orbital uplinks on the map. Or maybe you have to physically secure an orbital platform above your continent to gain OSes.

Personally I think it would be cool that on continents away from the equator you only had OS'es for a limited amount of time e.g. the amount of time the platform was above you in its orbit. You could track your Empires platforms on the map and see where they are above at the moment, and the area in which they can fire OS'es. It would be a cool new dimension.

Equatorial continents would have constant cover from geostationary platforms.

[Sentrosi]

How about a jamming module for bases that prevents OSes, or you have to take a certain amount of orbital uplinks on the map. Or maybe you have to physically secure an orbital platform above your continent to gain OSes.

Best idea of the day. In order for an invading empire to orbital strike, they would have to control facilities on the invading continent. Let's say all the Interlink facilities and the Dropship Center for the centralized uplink to the orbital station.

[Hamma]

Agreed I really like that idea.

[Traak]

the only reason they are annoying is because 8 years into Planetside the population is 75% CR5's, 25% CR4's so the spam of OS'es is ridiculous.

Having to physically secure an orbital platform above your continent to gain OSes.

Personally I think it would be cool that you only had OS'es for a limited amount of time e.g. the amount of time the platform was above you in its orbit. You could track your Empires platforms on the map and see where they are above at the moment, and the area in which they can fire OS'es. It would be a cool new dimension.


I altered what you said a bit.

The problem is not in percentage of people with OS power. It is the NUMBER of people with OS powers.

The OS is overpowered, allows cowards to strike from afar, and has no retribution, just to satisfy some twit's desire to strike an OS without having to even leave his base.

Nah. PS:Next will be far more popular than PS, I think, and as a result we will be drowning in OS's once again, making the support guys have one more thing other than idiots of their own empire to deal with.

Since when did AMS's ever need a counter that required cowardice to properly function anyway? It isn't like most assaults have ever drowned in AMS's.

I quit NC because I got tired of being the only AMS driver in the entire SOI of an enemy base, and because the NC, after Pig and Burn didn't play much, descended into gibbering monkeys all trying to direct the zerg for no CEP and maximum (for them) BEP.

PS was fantastic before the OS, and the new PS doesn't need them. It won't lose subscribers because people have to actually get out of their base to destroy an enemy AMS.

Rewarding lazy cowardice is not the way to improve the game. Rewarding team-based disciplined action is the way to improve the game.

[Hamma]

OS's are not cowardice. People who use them are not lazy, we often used them as part of our team assaults as a diversion.

They are useful tools in battle that can help change the course of battle. They are simply tools in the arsenal and I believe very useful. You just aren't a fan of getting killed by them :p

In all seriousness it does need some restrictions on it, 2cool had some good idaes for that. Just make it require a bit more teamwork to put in play and it will be just as useful and not quite as overpowered as it is now (99% of people havin them)

[Peacemaker]

OS limitation idea - By default an attacking empire on a continent with no bases (or a certain type of base) (Orbital Uplink Facility?) Cannot use OS's untill they do.

For an attacking team to use OS's without the uplink facility, they would need to have a vehicle on continent which would provide OS coverage with in a limited range. They would also be visible from far away. OS cool down timers are longer with this.

[Furret]

They really need to change the command structure around a lot so if they change it in a way to minimize the number of OS's flying around, that could be another solution to the problem.

One of my other ideas for the command system (which I'm not going to go into great detail about) involved having the top command ranks (I went from 0-10) being a percentage instead of a certain minimum EXP. That way, no matter how long people have been playing the game, there's only the top (100?) commanders in each empire who have access to an orbital strike.

The top commanders would be ranked based on a monthly CEP gained, not a cumulative total.

[Evilmp]

i didn't read much of the thread past post 10 or 11..

but i believe having to walk everywhere was a pretty cool thing. it made you hitch rides and use the transports.

[Grimster]

They really need to change the command structure around a lot so if they change it in a way to minimize the number of OS's flying around, that could be another solution to the problem.

One of my other ideas for the command system (which I'm not going to go into great detail about) involved having the top command ranks (I went from 0-10) being a percentage instead of a certain minimum EXP. That way, no matter how long people have been playing the game, there's only the top (100?) commanders in each empire who have access to an orbital strike.

The top commanders would be ranked based on a monthly CEP gained, not a cumulative total.

I like that idea partly. The one problem I see with that system is that the top commanders will be those who have the most free time and put in most time to the game and not necessarily those who are good at commanding.

I think if a new system were to be put in place it should benefit skills and not the amount of time you put in. :)

[BlazingSun]

PS was fantastic before the OS, and the new PS doesn't need them. It won't lose subscribers because people have to actually get out of their base to destroy an enemy AMS.


Well how about giving the person with OS powers different things to choose from. Instead of firing off an OS, you could choose to order an AMS via airdrop to the chosen location? (you'll be able to use it for an hour or so, if you don't have the cert).
Or make it a stationary spawning location, which comes down from orbit with a bigger drop pod.

[Traak]

but i believe having to walk everywhere was a pretty cool thing. it made you hitch rides and use the transports.

I agree. It was VERY motivating for me as a new player to cert AMS when I saw guys making pilgrimages to the battle that were just WAAAAY too long. In fact, it became so important to me it support became my primary thing.

I invented the term "More gunning, less running". I hate seeing our guys have to hike a mile to get shot in ten seconds. Hate it.

I also coined the term "The AMS is my weapon, and soldiers are my ammo!"

[Traak]

Well how about giving the person with OS powers different things to choose from. Instead of firing off an OS, you could choose to order an AMS via airdrop to the chosen location? (you'll be able to use it for an hour or so, if you don't have the cert).
Or make it a stationary spawning location, which comes down from orbit with a bigger drop pod.

Or just being able to put an empire-wide WP on it that anyone can see. Then they STILL have to run up and kill it. This is effectively how it is or was with the cheaters we were swamped with, at least before they banned trial accounts, anyway. I think a heck of a battle could result in from an AMS being waypointed instead of OSed.

How to prevent abuse of empire-wide WP's? Make them ONLY work if PRECISELY placed on the CENTER of an AMS. That implies having to actually get off the wall where you were huddled in the door of your staircase to get close enough to SEE and PLACE the WP. AND they can only be used once per hour per empire. AND they have to be set by a very short-range laze pointer.

As I said, earlier, AMSes have never been a problem in there being too many. But the OS, as the game matures again, will once again, if not properly checked, just make cowardly idiots reign supreme like it did in PS.

[Bags]

Or just being able to put an empire-wide WP on it that anyone can see. Then they STILL have to run up and kill it. This is effectively how it is or was with the cheaters we were swamped with, at least before they banned trial accounts, anyway. I think a heck of a battle could result in from an AMS being waypointed instead of OSed.

How to prevent abuse of empire-wide WP's? Make them ONLY work if PRECISELY placed on the CENTER of an AMS. That implies having to actually get off the wall where you were huddled in the door of your staircase to get close enough to SEE and PLACE the WP. AND they can only be used once per hour per empire. AND they have to be set by a very short-range laze pointer.

As I said, earlier, AMSes have never been a problem in there being too many. But the OS, as the game matures again, will once again, if not properly checked, just make cowardly idiots reign supreme like it did in PS.

Traak, you seem like a very angry person. May I ask why using the tools provided to you by command rank makes people cowardly idiots?

[Traak]

Traak, you seem like a very angry person. May I ask why using the tools provided to you by command rank makes people cowardly idiots?

It's legal in some countries to utilize underage prostitutes. Just because something is allowed by some rule set doesn't make it wonderful or acceptable.

The command tools don't make them cowardly idiots, the tools make it possible for cowardly idiots to thrive. And cowardly idiots thriving is something we get enough of in real life, at the office, in politics, wherever. We don't need to artificially create situations where the same species has one more place to succeed.

I mean, why stop there? Why not make it so one faction can sue the other faction also? Claim racial discrimination if I make a slur against the Vanu?

The point is that I think combat should be about having to close with the enemy and kill them, the definition of the infantry soldier. Not be able to be far away and inflict death at no risk whatsoever of even being noticed, let alone discovered.

The problem is that over time, we will again be swamped with CR's that can use the OS, and again, who will suffer? The CR4 and 5 cowards, or the support guys? Having AMSes last longer doesn't ruin battles, it makes them better.

Too often, a battle will be going great guns LOL, another pun, these just seem to be so easy to come by here, anyway, and then the only AMS gets OSed, battle drops to zero. Whoop de doo. Momentum lost, from both sides, fun plummets, XP stops. All because one *** had an OS? Or ten **** had OSes?

Yes, they were every three hours. Sure. Great. Problem is they will once again go to being every five minutes if they are not severely controlled. Leave any privileges of rank at the level of monitoring or information, not uber-weapons that will end up in the hands of too many.

It's hard enough to get a good assault going without morons being able to switch it off with a CUD. It provides a negative overall effect for the game. People will, again, use it to kill wall turrets that are having great effect, OS vehicle pads with friendlies on them so he can get to the front of the line, all sorts of stuff that has absolutely no positive impact on anything related to the game whatsoever. I would rather see a gigantic indiscriminate base-and-everyone-in-the-SOI killing nuke that was available once a YEAR than OSes that would again, be drastically overused.

If you want OSes that come from an orbiting platform, then make it so we can shoot the thing down with AA.

Again, making the game suck for the entire support class just so some childish CR's can have their fun is stupid.

As I said, if you want an AMS destroyed, grow at least one ball and go do it in person. This isn't supposed to be Cowardiceisrewardedside, which it has turned into.

[Hamma]

Honestly Orbital Strikes were the least of this games balance problems. Sure now it might be a bit OP because everyone has one but I still don't think it's on the scale you describe.

[Tikuto]

Excessive Orbital Strikes.
Excessive super-powers.

I see multiple small O.S. at the same time: yeah. cool.
I see one big O.S. at one time: yeah. cool.
I see the two same things frequently, seperately or together: no. lame.

[BlazingSun]

I'd like to mention, that OSes were pretty much the only way, to temporally break free from a siege and get out from inside the base again.

I really don't see them as such a big problem. Sure there might be too many CR5s after 7 years into the game, but if the only problem that PS:N will have is, that there are too many people with OSes after 3-4 years, I'd be happy.

[Tremadog]

At the risk of steering this back on topic, I agree that Planetside has a unique pacing, I think the combat itself is fine, but getting back into combat needs to be done quicker, but I'm not sure what methods that would require.

Either there needs to be a more intelligent respawn system, more incentive to use transport vehicles, but from the moment you die, you really need to be able to get back into the action in a meaningful manner more quickly. Even if you can't respawn more quickly, being able to organise loadouts when you are waiting to respawn or something, so you don't need to run to a terminal after respawning? Perhaps the AMS could function like a transport vehicle that people could respawn inside? These ideas may be old, or utter rubbish, but I think they should be considered, at least.

I think the fighting itself is fine, since it takes a while to kill your character in many cases, outdoor combat often giving you time to look for cover, heal up and try different tactics if you get attacked (unless a stray tank shell lands on your head, of course). Making a player easier to kill just means more time spent staring at the respawn screen, after all.

[Traak]

I'd like to mention, that OSes were pretty much the only way, to temporally break free from a siege and get out from inside the base again.


If you want to get out, get to sanc, spawn an AMS, and get back in the battle. Or a plane, or something. I have done it many times.

If you have no spawn points on the cont, then get a mob of people, work as a unit, rush one door, and bust out.

OMG teamwork! If you can't get the people together, your empire can't work as a unit, you don't deserve the OS anyway.

[Peacemaker]

Derailed. (Its 2:30 am. I cant be bothered to find a "Derailed" train pic and post it here.)

[Sirisian]

Derailed. (Its 2:30 am. I cant be bothered to find a "Derailed" train pic and post it here.)
3 AM here. Can't tell if he's a troll that hasn't played Planetside before. But anyway (http://assaultwars.com/pictures/threadfun.jpg).

[DviddLeff]

Regarding the speed of combat:

I much prefer the feel of the BF games where as you guys have said it takes significantly less time than in old PS, and a bit more time than in CoD games. Main factor that effect it is the TTK of weapons. For the most weapons it is simply too long, especially at range with MA rifles where damage degradation makes it even slower.

With med packs it makes combat even more lop sided; those with high TTK weapons (HA, most vehicle guns) kill even quicker than low TTK weapons (MA, pistols, mag main gun even) as the enemy has more time to pop med packs or even get back into cover.

While yes, it does suck to be killed, unless you are zerging from base to base the travel time from the AMS (or possibly the Gal in the sequel?) should not be too long, and if you are in a vehicle its not a long travel time at all.

I also feel that base hack timers are way too long; if you cant re-secure a base in ten minutes, the only way you will get it back in the last five is if the defenders get so bored they go AFK or leave to find some fun (which often happens).

Spawn timers are fine as is.

Orbital Strikes I find irritating, they are a cheap way to grab kills and ruin a fight. They should not be a reward granted to those that lead, leaders should only get helpful perks, like the reveal enemies or perhaps the ability to place a Simple Medical Station (instead of the Advanced Medical Station) to allow people to respawn in the field.

Instead of OS's you can already slap a waypoint on the AMS and have your platoon direct their fire, be it in the form of Reaver air strikes, tank shells or artillery. You can always spawn at another base or at sanc to grab your vehicles to do the job (except in a pop lock of course).

[Robert089]

I think a command ability where you can call in a spawn point would help to speed up combat and perhaps help to deal with peoples worries about orbital strikes.

It could be something similar to a HART drop pod with equipment terminals on the sides. Perhaps if a squad leader uses it all of his squad will automatically be bound to it allowing them to spawn there, making it useful for assaults or just regrouping.

[DviddLeff]

I just added that to my PUP :D

[CutterJohn]

Said it before.. Expand the grouping options for players. Not just squad, and platoon, but company, brigade, army, as well. Instead of command ranks, grant the command tools based on your 'rank' in the current games command hierarchy, and the number of troops you have under your command.

In other words, command ranks are entirely temporary, and you only get them when actively leading. If you aren't actively leading and supporting your troops with your tools, players will notice, and bail for a commander that does. It makes command ranks a continuous democratic process, and the number of things like OSes in the field are directly limited by players online. If you only get a small OS when in command of a platoon with 20+ people, there won't be many OSes being used. at best 1 in 20 players will have them.


Regarding speed of combat, I think its ok, but I think that the turnaround to get back into combat could use some help. Things like:

-Being able to use the big glue gun to repair MAXes or other soldiers(not self heal).

-Better respawn timers if you've managed to stay alive for a certain time.

-Better revives for medics.

-A run mode for soldiers like MAXes have, with downsides like no weapon, drained stamina(though it doesn't stop), cancels if shot. Not surge.. Surge is useful for combat.

-Micro vehicle spawns at towers and possible AMS or Lodes for ATVs, to go along with a suggestion I saw earlier in the thread about giving everyone a free, weaponless ATV cert.

-More respawn options so you're not trapped somewhere. Perhaps you bind to another base automatically. A nearby one, or a far away one.

-Improved vehicle repair times, to get you back into the fight faster. Or somehow improving the lodestar pilot experience to encourage more of them.

-Have certs include both a 'premium' vehicle with a long respawn timer, and a 'cheap' one with a short timer, with the same general role. An example would be a normal tank, and something like a 2man lightning. Players that lose the tank, rather than having to wait for the vehicle timer, can get back out in the lighter tank and still have fun, instead of waiting out the five minutes.

-Shorter paths in the base, at least while it is not under siege. When enemies come, doors can lockdown(that can't be bypassed).

-Being able to select your fit during the respawn timer, rather than having to wait until you respawn to get your gear. Perhaps even being able to respawn directly into a vehicle, though that at least I would see on a longish timer.



Time to kills I think are pretty decent, all things considered. Looked at on 1v1, yeah, they seem rather long compared to other games, but you'll oftentimes be charging into so many enemies that shorter ttks would just mean pushing into an entrenched position is nearly impossible.

[Aractain]

1 to 3 seconds of constant accurate fire is not too long to me - its FAR easier to get kills in COD games. Planetside's system actually promoted skill, although I do realise the agile/HA players often wanted a more fast paced game but I don't think that's really appropriate given the clientside/wargame style.

The biggest problem IMO to the speed of the combat was aoe spam; plasma, maelstrom, tank guns. Never mind the fact your were facing several streams of lasher bolts or Gauss rounds while on fire - the more 'casual' players (those people who left) would just die and die and die. Remove all that spam and everyone gets more fun gameplay, sans spammers. The top tier players (that's basically everyone still playing) can mitigate most of the pain but the fodder who just want a good fight die in more like 0.1 seconds.

There's a place for AOE area denial weapons but not indoors thanks.

The respawn penalty for deaths didn't make anyone I knew play better - they just got annoyed at yet another feature of the game that was boring or frustrating. (seriously who cares if someone gets spawn camped a lot if he chooses that? Hes already throwing away his own time, why waste more?)