Ammo Types

[Hamma]

I stole this thought from another thread but I thought it was an interesting discussion.

Personally to me AP vs Standard Ammo never had a ton of use in PlanetSide. Often times you would end up dead before having a chance to switch out ammo types. It is an interesting mechanic but I never found it extremely useful. Should something like this remain in PSN?

Thoughts?

[DviddLeff]

Nah may as well get rid; it just confuses new players.

[Sirisian]

I agree that switching ammo took a bit too long to make it worthwhile, but I do believe it has a purpose in the game. As mentioned a long time ago there should be a damage matrix for every entity in the game with every weapon and ammo type. Using AP ammo should ideally kill things like spitfires/mines rather quickly where as standard ammo should take a lot of rounds.

Would be interesting to see a magazine customization option with a quick switch option. Like you have say a 30 round clip and you can add ammo types to stacks in the magazine with multiple separate feed mechanisms. Say that a gauss has two stacks. You can place 20 standard ammo rounds into the first one and then 10 AP rounds into the second one. So during battle you could be shooting and see an armored unit and use the quick switch method to change rounds.

On top of this you could do something I've always wanted and that was make AP rounds hit for more versus an infantry's armor but not do as much to its health. So you might have say 200 armor and it would take 14 AP rounds to take down and 18 standard rounds. Then for the health bar standard rounds it would take 5 standard versus 7 AP rounds.

This would end up splitting players into two groups. One that knows the difference in ammo types and able to use 19 rounds to kill a target or one that hasn't figured it out and takes 25 rounds.

I play as VS but ideally this would help TR so they don't have to hold two machine guns. Regarding the VS I never saw the point in using say the AP rounds on the pulsar. Didn't seem all too useful.

[GoldDragon]

You know... I often found myself wondering why AP was less effective than Standard rounds. I'd say if they don't plan on changing the system, then stick with one ammo type. That said, I like the idea of having different ammo types... So here are a few thoughts.

If SOE decides to keep multiple ammo types...

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Standard - Normal damage against all targets, normal accuracy, etc.

AP - Extra damage verse vehicles, can shoot through certain materials (depending on the environment set up), and ignores X% of enemy body armor. Also, AP boxes come with less ammunition and AP clip sizes are smaller than standard (ie. Standard Gauss is 30, AP would be say 20). Assuming AP rounds are heavier, reduced accuracy as well.

So let's say SOE decides to get really creative and add empire-specific rounds for TR and NC (since VS already have energy cells).

NC - Magnetically Accelerated Rounds (MAG Rounds); For weapons such as Gauss rifle and hopefully a heavy rifle in place of jackhammer by default (I think HA needs a common pool shotgun, but this is all speculation). Can be applied to other weapons after achieving (a) specific merit(s). Effect something along the lines of faster projectile speed. (Technically this would reduce recoil as well... but I'll let you all argue over balance issues, also please suggest a negative impact.)

TR - Stabilized Rounds (Creative Acronym here); Due to the Terran's high rate of fire, bullets are stabilized to maintain accuracy and do not fly everywhere but the target. Default for TR weapons and improve the accuracy of non-empire weapons. Same conditions apply as in the MAG rounds. (A con could be reduced damage?)

VS - Plasma Enhanced Rounds (Another Acronym); Rounds that can switch to an armor piercing mode for non-energy weapons. Since the VS are already using powercells I'm not entirely sure how this would fit in, but just a thought. Still thinking of a possible con for the switch as well, first thing that comes to mind is reduced accuracy much like the pulsar if you switch modes.

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These are the primary round types I can think of, adding much else would almost feel pointless and even these are questionable but I still think it's worth exploring.

[Tikuto]

Not sure what to this, really, other than I'd like to see clear visual differences of each Empire. By this I mean something that would greatly correspond to EVE Online: Projectile : TR
Hybrid : NC
Energy : VS
Ability to change visual effect of your weapon ammunition would be an aesthetic change only. No statistics change.


I can agree to keep the game simplified somehow and if that can include removing different ammunition types then, yeah, go for it SOE!

[Firefly]

You know... I often found myself wondering why AP was less effective than Standard rounds.
In the name of balance... AP was essentially a sabot round, Standard was the softer type that fragments and causes more damage to the actual person.

[Timantium]

Honestly, I use the right-click AP orbs in my lasher for maxes. I guess swithing out the rounds for TR/NC HA is trickier as they have to actually switch ammo (X is the hotkey I believe).

Whatever they do, if they leave AP rounds in the game, I think the bonuses (damage to armor or ignore armor) and penalties (accuracy) should be the same across all empires to protect balance. I like the creative acronym idea, but inevitably one empire would get stuck with crap AP while everyone else would get an advantage if they designed the empire specific AP rounds to work differently.

We already have empire specific pros/cons to weapon function and adding another variable layer with ammo functionality would exponentially complicate the balance more than it would add to player strategy or enjoyment.

[Bags]

AP had its place until the cert inflation and now that everyone has everything there's no reason to not have AV certed. AP HA was great for saving 3 certs.

[Raymac]

I found myself using AP rounds less and less as time went on until I basically just ignore them completely now. Unless something changes drastically in PSN, then I'll ignore them there too.

[Galapogos]

As long as there are maxes or even atvs in ps next, I would like to see AP ammo return, since HA + AP is pretty decent for taking down AA and AV maxes, and id rather have it as a last defense against AI maxes than just go down without trying anything. I also hope that not so many people have AV certed in ps next.

[wildcat140679]

I found myself using AP rounds less and less as time went on until I basically just ignore them completely now. Unless something changes drastically in PSN, then I'll ignore them there too.

I agree with Raymac, when I started playing after beta, gold ammo was frequently used and still felt like being of some value. But as I and those around progressed, people started packing one anti infantry weapon and one anti vehicle weapon and the use of gold ammo some what became obsolete.

I would not mind to see that AP rounds have a slightly bigger impact on vehicles, to make switching to AP feel worth it if you don't have any other AV weapon on you.

[kaffis]

I'd say it's the prevalence of both AV certs and RExo.

What does RExo have to do with it? Two rifle holsters = two weapons. Why compromise with an extra ammo type when you can carry a dedicated gun for it?

The other thing I feel suffered in a similar fashion is SA, which was another compromise of sorts.

Finally, a secondary contributing factor, I feel, is that AP requires a critical mass to be worth carrying. If 9 out of 10 guys in your squad rely on AP rounds for taking down appropriate targets, it's worth carrying. If 4 out of 10 rely on AP rounds, and the rest carry AV weapons in their second slot, there's no point in carrying AP rounds because the 6 of them will kill the threat before you've reloaded.

I think, for the record, increasing impact of AP rounds, as wildcat140679 suggests, would proportionately decrease that critical mass.

[Rbstr]

I never used AP ammo. Was about as easy to pack a decimator(?) and much more effective.

Not sure what to this, really, other than I'd like to see clear visual differences of each Empire. By this I mean something that would greatly correspond to EVE Online: Projectile : NC
Hybrid : TR
Energy : VS
Ability to change visual effect of your weapon would be an aesthetic change only. No statistics change.

Yeah, except you got TR and NC completely messed up. The NC have a guass rifle and cannon, which is certainly a "hybrid" gun (def: shooting projectiles with electricity instead of explosions) :)
We can hope the new Vanguard gets a real rail gun to fit the theme, while the Magrider has laser/plasma weapons.

Personally I think AP should take out Rexo faster than standard ammo, be potentially deadly to MAX and harass aircraft. While standard ammo kills agile, standards and infils faster.

But that requires a rethink of rexo - tweaked to be a bit more powerful but also with more drawbacks so it becomes a more niche armor. Same with agile. Then have standard be the go-to dual slot armor, but make one slot smaller so you can't fit two heavy weapons, you basically have to go MA + X.

That means that loading AP could really help against several targets (as opposed to just annoying the tank a teensy bit more than before). But it could also fuck you in the bum if you run into lighter troops.

[CutterJohn]

In the name of balance... AP was essentially a sabot round, Standard was the softer type that fragments and causes more damage to the actual person.

That doesn't work, since the softer ammo won't penetrate armor, while the sabot will. :)

Theres no use explaining it.. It was a completely arbitrary mechanic with no logical sense. Any round that could damage a tank would tear the heck out of meat.


I'd be fine with eliminating gold ammo. I think the original intention was to give grunts some AV capability before they had AV certed, but in practice using it on anything other than an MCG or JH was rather fruitless unless you convinced everyone around you to use it as well.

I would personally prefer white ammo doing decent damage to vehicles and max units, and adding a small AV weapon to the MA cert. Something thats just a direct fire rocket launcher with no guidance nor especially fast speed. Like an M72.

Tbh, I'm pretty sure that gold ammo originated from the fact that PS had very simplistic damage models originally. A bullet did as much as it did, and that was it. So they gave infantry lots of armor, and made a special AI bullet that bypassed this armor to a degree. This shouldn't be an issue if they are using a modern engine.

[I SandRock]

I agree it should either be removed from the game or reworked to actually be useful and effective. Not just do a slightly bit more damage against MAX/vehicles still amounting to nothing :P

Even those saying it was somewhat useful in HA aren't entirely right... (I think).. HA simply did more damage anyway, the difference between using normal vs AP in those guns was very small too and only really noticeable if you could fire a full / several clips into something. Which meant the driver / player was being an idiot ;)

[Bags]

I agree it should either be removed from the game or reworked to actually be useful and effective. Not just do a slightly bit more damage against MAX/vehicles still amounting to nothing :P

Even those saying it was somewhat useful in HA aren't entirely right... (I think).. HA simply did more damage anyway, the difference between using normal vs AP in those guns was very small too and only really noticeable if you could fire a full / several clips into something. Which meant the driver / player was being an idiot ;)

AP JH / MCG eat maxes in less than half 3/4 of a clip. Against any max but an AI max it's plenty easy to kill them.

I never said it was good against tanks. It could scare away mossies at best.

[I SandRock]

AP JH / MCG eat maxes in less than half 3/4 of a clip. Against any max but an AI max it's plenty easy to kill them.

I never said it was good against tanks. It could scare away mossies at best.

And non-AP does it in 1 clip with the JH. (tried on TR max, fun to walk up behind them when deployed and stick a JH up their butt) So 3/4th is 5 shots with AP, non-AP is 6 shots :p

[Bags]

And non-AP does it in 1 clip with the JH. (tried on TR max, fun to walk up behind them when deployed and stick a JH up their butt) So 3/4th is 5 shots with AP, non-AP is 6 shots :p

Good job, we should base everything around stationary targets. I'm assuming against a target that could pop pshield / medikit / nc max shield / dodge part of your shots. Against moving maxes it generally takes 3/4th of a clip, no idea against stationary, AFK targets.

[I SandRock]

Good job, we should base everything around stationary targets. I'm assuming against a target that could pop pshield / medikit / nc max shield / dodge part of your shots. Against moving maxes it generally takes 3/4th of a clip, no idea against stationary, AFK targets.

Yes, you should base it off actual hits. Because misses are totally random and based on nothing. So it's 1 shot less.

[BorisBlade]

Actually, AP MCG's chew up maxes rather well, the times i havent had the AV cert i keep a second AP filled MCG for my dual MCG set ups, i havent ran all the damage numbers lately but wouldnt doubt if up close you could do more damage with an mcg than a striker vs a max in the same time span. AP ammo does double damage versus maxes which is really all that it was meant to be used on. Never meant for vehicles. If you are shooting bullets at a tank or somethin and expecting it to do much you are in trouble. Not even av weapons do a ton to vechicles and they are designed specifically for that.

And yeah it takes a second to switch ammo types (unless you are vs then its instant and doesn need different ammo on the pulsar and just given for free to the normal damage on the lasher (but at slightly reduced damage), but that is intentional. It means you have to make a choice. Vs get it for free as the benefit because they lose out in other areas, the lasher does a little less versus maxes but doesnt need to switch ammo types (very cool imo), The pulsar does less damage per second than the other MA weaps (not by much tho), so it gets a decent clip and the nice AP mode.

Makin you have to choose is nice. Doesnt happen alot so it works out very well. It also allows you to do some solid damage to armor but still remains weaker than the options with AV as it should.

In short, its there to let you have somethin to fight maxes with if you dont have the AV cert that does well but not as good as AV. The ammo switchin is to obvioulsy keep the role for AV and to add choices in the game which in the end are fun, keeping the variety is key to the fun of PS.

[GoldDragon]

Actually, AP MCG's chew up maxes rather well, the times i havent had the AV cert i keep a second AP filled MCG for my dual MCG set ups, i havent ran all the damage numbers lately but wouldnt doubt if up close you could do more damage with an mcg than a striker vs a max in the same time span. AP ammo does double damage versus maxes which is really all that it was meant to be used on. Never meant for vehicles. If you are shooting bullets at a tank or somethin and expecting it to do much you are in trouble. Not even av weapons do a ton to vechicles and they are designed specifically for that.

And yeah it takes a second to switch ammo types (unless you are vs then its instant and doesn need different ammo on the pulsar and just given for free to the normal damage on the lasher (but at slightly reduced damage), but that is intentional. It means you have to make a choice. Vs get it for free as the benefit because they lose out in other areas, the lasher does a little less versus maxes but doesnt need to switch ammo types (very cool imo), The pulsar does less damage per second than the other MA weaps (not by much tho), so it gets a decent clip and the nice AP mode.

Makin you have to choose is nice. Doesnt happen alot so it works out very well. It also allows you to do some solid damage to armor but still remains weaker than the options with AV as it should.

In short, its there to let you have somethin to fight maxes with if you dont have the AV cert that does well but not as good as AV. The ammo switchin is to obvioulsy keep the role for AV and to add choices in the game which in the end are fun, keeping the variety is key to the fun of PS.

/win :D

Well put - I would have to agree. I'd still like to see empire specific rounds tho so if someone picks up a cycler or gauss they can't automatically have the ammo for it... lol

[Bruttal]

The way AP mode is Currently is DUMB, For what reason is it called ARMOR PIERCING? if it doesn't do mild health damage per shot?

Different Ammo would do Different Levels of Health Damage along with the Large ammo damage. for instance Pulsar AP mode would be decent for people in Agil armor while AP mode on HA would be good for fighting Rexo suits. and we already have AV weapons, but if you lit up any of those AP ammos/firing modes it would pierce the vehicles armor and damage the players armor if the players armor = 0 Health damage is applyed

[TRex]

I was about to start a thread about this then the nice forum thing gave me the similar thread pop-up, so here I am.

I remember when I first played this game , and I deduced ( incorrectly ofc) that logic made me believe that everyone except infiltrators was wearing 'Armour' , therefore it made sense to use AP ammo since it was 'Armour Piercing'.

I was going to ask someone with actual Military experience if this was indeed how it should work?

I believed that normal ammo 'squashed' on impact with flesh, therefore doing a lot of contact damage by damaging organs and bone upon impact with said body. Its like instant critical trauma to flesh .

Armour Piercing ammo , as I understand it , has a much harder point therefore allowing it the possibility of penetrating said armour . Maybe not do as much 'squashing' and actual damage overall , but still get into the flesh and weaken them to the point where it hurts or may stun them.

From this deduction , I find it bemusing that if I shoot someone in armour , say a max that the ammo sort of steadily removes the amour . A bit like stripping paint from a wall. It's like the magic bullet theory , my ammo systematically finds every bit of ammo from a body , removes it and then and only then it attacks flesh .

Surely AP ammo should be like a sliding scale eg

Agile armor 30% armour 70% HP damage ( for each bullet )
Rexo armour 50% armour 50% HP
AI Max 80% armour 20% HP
AA Max 95% armour 5%HP
AV Max 95% armour 5% HP

Just random figures, but I hope you get the jist of what I mean. So if white ammo hits a standard for 10HP per bullet , hitting a raxo with AP ammo would do 5HP damage and remove 10 armour.

I suggested that AV/ AA have more armor than an AI max , or maybe a hard point system like that Vindicator guy posts.

My ultimate point is that if AP ammo had a sliding scale , it could rule out the need for white ammo altogether and maybe make Maxes a little less of an irritation indoors , and sustained fire from 2 or 3 grunts take them down pretty fast . Maxes outdoors it would be more effective to carry AV weapons since they have much more armour.

[Aractain]

The confusion behind the Armour Piercing vs Standard ammo is that it was badly named.

Anti-Material - tooltip: "Anti-Material rounds. Used to destroy light turrets, vehicles and MAXs"
Anti-Personel - tooltip: "Anti-Personel rounds. Effective against infantry."

The wonders of modern games...

[LordReaver]

AP MCG is great for taking out aircraft. You can kill a mossy with it in no time.

AP ammo is redundant, but I don't think it would really matter either way. What should be cleared up though, is plasma vs frag.

[FortunadoAE]

AP MCG is great for taking out aircraft. You can kill a mossy with it in no time.

AP ammo is redundant, but I don't think it would really matter either way. What should be cleared up though, is plasma vs frag.

Yeah, even after I "understood" the difference, I still had a hard time deciding/caring between these. And I loved the grenade launcher. The biggest thing I discovered is that plasma is a great psychological tool-- the burning really made people MOVE.

I also agree on AP ammo. It's a simple feature. It's a pain in the butt that provides a small edge to the prepared player. There should be more things like this, not less. But really it's small enough that I don't care either way.

[CutterJohn]

I was going to ask someone with actual Military experience if this was indeed how it should work?

Thats the way it works, excepting for the fact that there is really no such thing as armor piercing bullets for infantry rifles. They either pierce armor, or they don't. Its not till you get into the .50s and above you start seeing the specialty rounds, and those are primarily worried about taking on different sorts of armored targets, or how to spread death over a larger area.

And there is really no call for making AP vs AM rounds, since something that can make it through body armor will royally mess a person up, as is normal with bullets. And it will have no issues messing them up sans body armor. Bodies are pretty frail.



I do think that alternate ammos for weapons wouldn't be a bad idea, but I would approach it more from a useability or functionality standpoint. A harder hitting round that also cranks up the cof and recoil, or has a reduced clip size. That sort of thing.

[Rbstr]

Thats the way it works, excepting for the fact that there is really no such thing as armor piercing bullets for infantry rifles.

Yes there are, just not often used, sometimes because of dubious legality or other issues.
Hollow points and very small exploding projectiles are banned by international law, for instance (yeah, not Armour-piercing ammunition, just an illustration).
Flechette rounds have been explored as well for infantry rifles, they've got all sorts of stuff better and worse than traditional bullets.

There are VASTLY different wound patterns and survivability between a hollow point and an FMJ type round.

Lots of things you can do with a bullet to make it go though body or other armors (which most would call "armor piercing") or do more tissue damage.
It's often a trade-off between the two.

[Silverfish]

I for one enjoyed using AP ammo in my Jackhammer against maxes. Usually had a box of it in my pilot inventory in case some AA max decided to give me trouble. So I'd be happy if it stayed in the game as it is in PS. But like most other people in here, I wouldnt really care if it doesn't make it into the next game.

[SilentHunterNC]

I agree with Raymac, when I started playing after beta, gold ammo was frequently used and still felt like being of some value. But as I and those around progressed, people started packing one anti infantry weapon and one anti vehicle weapon and the use of gold ammo some what became obsolete.

I would not mind to see that AP rounds have a slightly bigger impact on vehicles, to make switching to AP feel worth it if you don't have any other AV weapon on you.

I personally liked the gold(ap) ammo. Shoot when some buddies and I would get bored we would just go around killing maxes w/ AP ammo. Also, with ap ammo it allows newer players the ability to buy rexo, which after the buff everyone had, earlier. IMO no need to remove somethign just because some people claim it to be obsol33t.

[Robert089]

Hell, I dropped AV a little while ago and started using an AP Sweeper to deal with MAXes and it works pretty well I must say.