Want to piss off a liberal?

[Baneblade]

Ask them who said this:

"The soundest way to raise revenues in the long run is to cut taxes now. The purpose of cutting taxes now is... to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus."

[Krowe]

JFK, and it does really bother me. I always saw it as more of a joke anyways.

[Sovereign]

You left out another great JFK quote, which said "In short, it is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now." In other words, he lowered tax rates in order to raise revenues to the federal government at the time. Ergo you obviously misinterpreted his proposition by taking the quote out of context.

:doh: ;)

[CutterJohn]

I think nobody disagrees with this idea, but it can only be taken so far. 0% taxes would be as ludicrous as 100% taxes. There is as yet a great deal of debate on what levels are too low and too high. If you figure out what level is perfect, I suggest submitting it to the Nobel prize committee so you can claim your reward.


PS: When kennedy said that in 1962, the top bracket was 91%, and capital gains 25%. Food for thought...

[Mezorin]

Want to piss off a republican?

Dwight Eisenhower on The Military Industrial Complex - YouTube

[Baneblade]

Ike was awesome. In every sense of the word.

[Traak]

Jesus is Lord.

[Accuser]

Jesus is Lord.

That won't piss off a liberal any more than an Amish guy saying that technology is the devil :evil: You feel bad for their kids, but it has an adorable child-like quality to it.

If you want to piss off a liberal, ask them how the Patriot Act is working out for them under Obama. But then, that should piss all Americans off imo.

[Baneblade]

Jesus has nothing to do with liberal or conservative. I mean, wouldn't Jesus be considered quite liberal in the context of his time?

[Traak]

No, I have just found most liberals are anti-Christianity.

[Krowe]

Probably because religion (in general) means nothing.

[Traak]

Especially when it is a basis for morals that the average liberal doesn't have.

[Krowe]

Considering the fact that you're attacking a group over the internet, it seems you don't have those morals either.

[Traak]

Not an attack. An observation. Take, for instance, abortion. To the average liberal, it's a wonderful way to get rid of a lifestyle-hampering blob of flesh.

Christians, generally, don't agree with this. Thus, by discarding the religion that espouses not murdering the unborn, it is easy to approve of it.

If you don't like the baby, you just throw out the bathwater. Or call it a blob of tissue.

Liberals largely don't embrace Christianity because it doesn't agree with much of what they believe, morally. Easier to just reject Christianity. And any other religion. Then claim that religions are for the weak, etc. etc. etc.

[Accuser]

Fun fact: If you kicked every atheist and agnostic out of America, you'd lose 90% of the scientific community and 1% of prison inmates.

Also, guess who's in favor of executing those Christian M'F'ers in prison? How's that for morals?

[Vecha]

Not an attack. An observation. Take, for instance, abortion. To the average liberal, it's a wonderful way to get rid of a lifestyle-hampering blob of flesh.

Christians, generally, don't agree with this. Thus, by discarding the religion that espouses not murdering the unborn, it is easy to approve of it.

If you don't like the baby, you just throw out the bathwater. Or call it a blob of tissue.

Liberals largely don't embrace Christianity because it doesn't agree with much of what they believe, morally. Easier to just reject Christianity. And any other religion. Then claim that religions are for the weak, etc. etc. etc.


Liberals don't want to kill babies...many don't consider the early developing fetus as life just yet.


Take, for instance, the difference between some Catholics who are against birth control(condoms, etc) vs. Protestants who are A-OK with stopping sperm from hitting that egg.

The sperm has the "potential" for life...just as much as the fetus.

You are welcomed to disagree...but doesn't matter too much.

Not all Liberals are atheists.

Not all conservatives are evangelical Christians.

[Krowe]

Not all conservatives are evangelical Christians.

And the ones that are, are mongoloids.

Bottom line is that religion does not belong in politics, and people who try to bring it up in politics are equally as retarded.

[Firefly]

Not an attack. An observation. Take, for instance, abortion. To the average liberal, it's a wonderful way to get rid of a lifestyle-hampering blob of flesh.

Christians, generally, don't agree with this. Thus, by discarding the religion that espouses not murdering the unborn, it is easy to approve of it.

If you don't like the baby, you just throw out the bathwater. Or call it a blob of tissue.

Liberals largely don't embrace Christianity because it doesn't agree with much of what they believe, morally. Easier to just reject Christianity. And any other religion. Then claim that religions are for the weak, etc. etc. etc.
You know what the funniest part of this utterly ass-backwards statement is? Most American **** are inherently Democrat and inherently "Liberal". My mother's Jewish. My grandmother and grandfather are Jewish. They're devout ****. They disagree with abortion. Pretty much all of their "average liberal" Jewish friends are against abortion. I'm Jewish. Not exactly devout. Mostly agnostic. Not quite liberal, but not quite conservative. Against abortion.

[Vecha]

You know what the funniest part of this utterly ass-backwards statement is? Most American **** are inherently Democrat and inherently "Liberal". My mother's Jewish. My grandmother and grandfather are Jewish. They're devout ****. They disagree with abortion. Pretty much all of their "average liberal" Jewish friends are against abortion. I'm Jewish. Not exactly devout. Mostly agnostic. Not quite liberal, but not quite conservative. Against abortion.

I should have mentioned this as well...not All democrats/Liberals are for abortion. :D

Guess I should have said..."those that are...."

[CutterJohn]

Hell I'm against it, in that I would not approve of someone getting one in most circumstances. But I also do not think it should be banned.

I've got this crazy idea that people should decide on their own about things that affect themselves. If you're ultra religious, and think abortion is sin, by all means, don't get one. Just don't talk about it to me. If you're ultra liberal, and think nothing more of it than squeezing a pimple, again, great. Don't want to hear about it.

[Vecha]

I've got this crazy idea that people should decide on their own about things that affect themselves. If you're ultra religious, and think abortion is sin, by all means, don't get one. Just don't talk about it to me. If you're ultra liberal, and think nothing more of it than squeezing a pimple, again, great. Don't want to hear about it.

Sounds good to me.

[BUGGER]

I've got this crazy idea that people should decide on their own about things that affect themselves. If you're ultra religious, and think abortion is sin, by all means, don't get one. Just don't talk about it to me. If you're ultra liberal, and think nothing more of it than squeezing a pimple, again, great. Don't want to hear about it.

Don't ask, don't tell?

[Firefly]

Don't ask, don't tell?
This was a stupid policy for the military. Either ban homosexuals or don't ban them. Some half-assed halfway policy just leaves massive loopholes for overzealous Bible-thumping commanders to go after someone they suspect of being gay. That's even if the person never once said "I'm gay".

[Traak]

Liberals don't want to kill babies...many don't consider the early developing fetus as life just yet.

I know they don't. A baby has its own DNA, full chromosome set, and is growing, no matter its size.

Strange how a bacterium is much smaller, less complex, but is considered to be a life form.

It only becomes debatable when the baby gets in the way of someone's convenience. Then, suddenly, though it is a distinct entity, oh, well, we can turn the womb, formerly known as the safest place in the universe into a legalized murder scene.

And the USA was founded by people who believed in God, and actively invited his participation in the formation and protection of the country. The "separation of church and state" was to protect the church from some ruler/king proclaiming himself the head of the church, as happened in England.

If you are so against the whole Christianity thing, why not find another country where it is illegal? Oh, that's right, those are some of the worst holes on Earth to live in.

Like most who hate God/put it under not believing he exists/peeved off with the church for some reason, you guys love to reap the benefits of a nation started by Christians, based on Godly principles, but want to deny the God who was largely to do with it happening.

As I said, go find some countries that were founded on something other than non-Catholic Christianity, and live there. The Muslim, Buddhist, or atheist world is waiting for you.

Same thing has been happening since Adam; take what God provides, then reject his rulership. It ain't new. Yes, you can use any excuse you want, but the root issue is that you don't want God, at least the God of the New Testament. And you are free to do that.

We, the Christians, are free to believe what we believe and do what we do. If your conscience doesn't bother you to murder the unborn, there isn't much else that could bother you, is there?

And you, many of you, are against the death penalty? On what grounds? That you have to be an innocent baby to deserve death, but mass murderers are somehow higher and better because they don't live in the womb of a slut/career woman/rape victim/whatever?

[Baneblade]

I know they don't. A baby has its own DNA, full chromosome set, and is growing, no matter its size.

Strange how a bacterium is much smaller, less complex, but is considered to be a life form.

It only becomes debatable when the baby gets in the way of someone's convenience. Then, suddenly, though it is a distinct entity, oh, well, we can turn the womb, formerly known as the safest place in the universe into a legalized murder scene.

Well in strictly scientific terms, a life form must be able to live of its own volition. Most humans don't enter that category until they are almost teenagers though... yet I have met a few who are in their thirties and still don't qualify. Fuckin mouth breathers.

The "separation of church and state" was to protect the church from some ruler/king proclaiming himself the head of the church, as happened in England.

Completely the opposite actually, it was to protect the state from the interference of the church that Europe had been suffering throughout its post-Roman history. Remember, the USA was supposed to be the Great What-If-Europe-Could-Start-Over Experiment.

Like most who hate God/put it under not believing he exists/peeved off with the church for some reason, you guys love to reap the benefits of a nation started by Christians, based on Godly principles, but want to deny the God who was largely to do with it happening.

God was involved for the same reason he is always involved, to make the humans involved feel better about what they were doing.

As I said, go find some countries that were founded on something other than non-Catholic Christianity, and live there. The Muslim, Buddhist, or atheist world is waiting for you.

Nice country, I'll take it.

We, the Christians, are free to believe what we believe and do what we do. If your conscience doesn't bother you to murder the unborn, there isn't much else that could bother you, is there?

Actually from what I understand, the entire process is generally considered a traumatic experience for the former mother.

And you, many of you, are against the death penalty? On what grounds? That you have to be an innocent baby to deserve death, but mass murderers are somehow higher and better because they don't live in the womb of a slut/career woman/rape victim/whatever?

I'm for the death penalty and against abortion. I just didn't have to thump an old book to arrive at those convictions.

[Vecha]

If you are so against the whole Christianity thing, why not find another country where it is illegal? Oh, that's right, those are some of the worst holes on Earth to live in.

Like most who hate God/put it under not believing he exists/peeved off with the church for some reason, you guys love to reap the benefits of a nation started by Christians, based on Godly principles, but want to deny the God who was largely to do with it happening.




Oh Jesus Christ. Where did I say I hated Christians? I EVEN SAID that not all liberals are atheists. Where did I say I didn't believe in GOD?


You totally ignored my argument about how Catholics see Sperm in the same light as the fetus.

Do you think you are ruining the potential of life every time you whack off?

This may be interesting to you.(Probably not...as you don't want to debate...you want to be fucking idiot and preach.) http://nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

Also....I love this country as it has the freedom to choose any religion you want! I'm not going to move out of this country because I don't side with people like you.

And...where did I say I was against the death penalty??? Just because I may be liberal?

Hate to tell you...but not everyone is alike.

There are PLENTY more sane-minded Christians who can have Civil conversations without getting hostile or telling those who disagree with them that, "NAH NAH NAH I DON'T HEAR YOU...LEAVE MY COUNTRY!!! NAH NAH NAH"

[Firefly]

Strange how a bacterium is much smaller, less complex, but is considered to be a life form.
Nobody has a problem with using anti-bacterial hand soap. So I fail to see how this is relevant - if you don't like abortion, don't have one. It's really that simple. Who the fuck are you to tell people what they can and can't do? Is it affecting your quality of life that some random female decides to have an abortion?

you guys love to reap the benefits of a nation started by Christians, based on Godly principles, but want to deny the God who was largely to do with it happening.
First thing wrong with this statement? The Founding Fathers were not all Christian, especially in the way that you abuse the term. A few of them were anti-clerical (which means they don't want Church involvement, period, in public, political, or personal lives) and a few were Deist. One of the tenets of Deist philosophy is that they believe that G-d does not alter the universe by intervening in the affairs of human life. Which leads me to the second thing wrong with your statement - "deny the G-d who was largely to do with it happening". I rather think that Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson would frown on the idea that G-d involved Himself in the creation of the United States. So the idea that Benjamin Franklin, a Deist, thought G-d came down and said "Hey Benny, go start a revolution" is about the most warped idea about the Founding Fathers since Michele Bachmann asserted that the Founding Fathers fought to end slavery.

Finally, the third thing which is utterly incorrect about the little sliver that I quoted is the whole Christian-nation vibe I get from your post. This is not a Christian nation. It is a nation without obeisance to any particular religion. Which means that I, as a ***, and Hamma, as an atheist (and an example, sorry Hamma), have every fucking right to live here as you, a Christian. So you can spare us the Bible-thumping rhetoric about how This Land Is Jesus' Land and nobody else's.

And this whole "If you don't like Christian America then go live elsewhere" bullshit is completely against the very idea that brought people to America in the first place, to say nothing of being a complete anathema to every immigrant since 1776 who came here to escape people like you. If *YOU* don't like that *WE* live here, how about *YOU* find some other place to live? Why should the rest of us have to up and move just so you can praise Jesus?

[Traak]

Who the [Jesus is Lord] are you to tell people what they can and can't do? Is it affecting your quality of life that some random female decides to have an abortion?

Is it affecting the quality of your life if someone murders a six-year old child? Since when was the victim of the murder not the primary concern when it comes to discussing murder?

Who are the police to tell people what they can and can't do? Who are the judges and court systems? You are saying that in no society, at any time, does anyone, anywhere, have any right to say anything about what is going on in it? Under no circumstances should anyone say anything about anything, because they have no right? No one can say "That is wrong."?

Or, who do you select to regard as having any say? The laws of the land? If it's legal, it's okay? So the line between right and wrong for you is if it is legal? Define, please, who you do think can say something about what is right or wrong. Suicide is illegal in many places. Illegal. That is someone else telling us that we can't kill ourselves. Have you ever even said ONE thing against that? How much more should people say that abortion, which is a person murdering someone else who is the very definition of innocence is wrong.

The Founding Fathers were not all Christian... I know. The majority of them were, however. Just like those who voted for Obama were not the entire population of the USA, but it was said that the USA elected him, yes?

Finally, the third thing which is utterly incorrect about the little sliver that I quoted is the whole Christian-nation vibe...

I didn't say the USA was a Christian nation. Leave off the "My interpretation of vibes, as colored by my emotions" stuff, and just go on what I said.

The USA was founded, largely, by Christians. Yes, it is the one place where anyone is free to practice their religion. That is part of the point. There are other countries that are just as rabidly anti-Christianity as you are. Have you noticed how miserable those places are? Interesting how people are freer to believe what they will in the nation founded, largely, by Christians, on Christian principles, than they would be in just about anywhere else on Earth.

The USA, unlike so many [all] of the EU countries, has a black president. Yes, this nation, founded, largely, by Christians, and having its laws based, largely, on New Testament principles, is the one where in spite of people such as yourself being so opposed to Christians, has elected a president who is black. The only time in history, I think, that any country that is largely white has done so.

So, in the countries that are dominated by people who tout whatever your preferred belief or unbelief is, has that ever happened? No.

Oh, and abortion is murder, for sure. The child is no less a person when he or she is one cell than the child is when its head is stuck halfway out the birth canal. I have never met anyone who grew to adulthood who said they wished they were aborted.

To try to arbitrarily assign some stage of life after conception as when the liberal gets to play God and rip the child to shreds with a vacuum source, scrape it out of the womb, poison it with salt solution, or smash its brains in so the smashed-up residue can be more easily removed (these are all methods of abortion, by the way) is to try to say murdering the unborn is okay.

So, how do you make a liberal mad? As I said. Say Jesus is Lord. that seems to do it, and any statements that stem from that. Another way is to say "Abortion is murder."

Yes, I know not all liberals approve of abortion, so you don't have to bother restating that. And I know some people claim to be liberal and Christian, but I would have to know what they believed to see if that was an oxymoron in their case.

Oh, Jesus is Lord.

[Accuser]

I love how Firefly points out that most Founders who expressed their religious beliefs were not Christian, but Taak keeps saying it anyway. It's even better that the Founders explicitly stated their fear of religion corrupting their new democratic republic. And as has been pointed out, there's a big gap between the millions of single-cell potential people living in my pants and infanticide. "Jesus is Lord" isn't offensive especially because the majority of people in the world (and most Founders of the U.S.) disagree.

In fact, I think it's rather difficult to piss off an atheist or agnostic liberal with a religious statement because the non-religious are now winning so thoroughly. Many more minds are free from the bondage of theology now than in the thousands of years before the scientific method helped us to see that the crops would grow even without a human sacrifice. And in the decades and centuries to come, we will push more deities from "religion" to "ancient myth" where they rightly belong.

[Firefly]

Is it affecting the quality of your life if someone murders a six-year old child? Since when was the victim of the murder not the primary concern when it comes to discussing murder?
It doesn't affect me unless it's my child. Just as when someone else has an abortion it doesn't affect me. Just as when someone on death row is executed it doesn't affect me. The primary concern during a murder investigation is catching and punishing the murderer. Being concerned about the murder victim more than anything else is myopic and false. It won't bring them back.

Who are the police to tell people what they can and can't do? Who are the judges and court systems?
In our country, the police and the judges and the court systems are part of our executive, legislative, and judicial system. If you don't like it, I recommend finding another country where the laws are more to your liking.

No one can say "That is wrong."?
Sure, you can say "that is wrong" all you want. It doesn't change anything unless you do something about it. You and people like you have been attempting to inflict your Christian morals on the law as it pertains to the subject of abortion since 1973's Roe vs Wade. Whether you like it or not, the law says a woman has a right to privacy under the due process clause under the 14th Amendment depending on fetus viability as defined by medical experts' consensus on what constitutes viability. Furthermore, people like you have been trying to change that law and it STILL hasn't happened. Which tells me that perhaps *IF* our political system is functioning more or less as intended that the majority-vote goes towards abortion being legal. I know it's a stretch to presume our political system works, but you get the idea. I hope. You can picket outside a clinic all you want, knock yourself out, have fun with that, watch out for traffic. Other more rabid fundamentalist extremist Christians practicing love and kindness and good Christian values take the morally righteous path (/sarcasm) of blowing up clinics and/or shooting clinic staff. Because, you know, that's what Jesus would do right?

If it's legal, it's okay?
If it's legal, it's legal. Full stop. Your definition of "okay" may not be the same as your neighbor's definition which may not be the same as Michele Bachmann's definition which may not be the same as John Doe's definition of what is okay. I don't care about what you think is okay. I care about what pertains to me. Furthermore I don't try to inflict my point of view on abortion on other people. As I said before - if you don't like abortion, don't have one.

Suicide is illegal in many places. Illegal. That is someone else telling us that we can't kill ourselves. Have you ever even said ONE thing against that?
My view on suicide is this: if you're going to kill yourself, do us all a favour and don't make a fucking mess. I see suicide as a tragedy but I see it as the weak weeding themselves out. I see suicide as people with problems taking the cheap and selfish way out and leaving their problems for everyone else. And before you get a wild hair up your ass and ask if I've ever known someone who committed suicide, the answer is yes - my closest friend and Army mentor. My answer hasn't changed.

There are other countries that are just as rabidly anti-Christianity as you are.
You're a failure at reading comprehension if you think I'm anti-Christian. I'm not anti-Christian. I am anti-hypocrisy, anti-shove-your-belief-down-my-throat and anti-moral-high-horse. I object to someone inflicting their faith on me by way of trying to tell me how to live. I object to anyone, Muslim *** or Christian, who says "This is my religious belief, you have to live this way." I don't have to do a goddamned thing except obey the laws of my country. I rather like and admire your Jesus Christ, a man who was a rebel but was not the Messiah and was not the Son of G-d. What I don't admire is the fact that I don't find many Christians to be Christ-like. You want to be a Christian? Fine, cool, do it over there. You want to be an atheist? Fine, great, do it over there. You want to be a Pastafarian? Excellent, have fun with that, do it over there. Not a damned one of you needs to be passing religious dogma as law, not in this country hell no. When your Jesus is allowed to start telling me how to live, you can start paying my bills and buying my groceries and fucking my girlfriend. Until that day, keep your morals to yourself and try to live by them. Not everyone shares them, and not everyone thinks they are good morals for the rest of us.

And I know some people claim to be liberal and Christian, but I would have to know what they believed to see if that was an oxymoron in their case.
A very telling remark. I'm glad you mentioned this. Now, if I get this right... from what you said, you think it's virtually impossible to be a liberal and a Christian. Correct me if I'm wrong here. Anyone else besides Traak, feel free to chime in - did YOU interpret Traak's statement this way?

Let's examine the greatest Christian of all time, who happened to be a ***. I believe you know him. His name is Jesus. His philosophy was based in compassion, equality, inclusion, forgiveness, tolerance, (and to rip off Elvis Costello) peace love and understanding. Sounds 100% "liberal". Jesus commanded you to love everyone, feed the poor, and help the needy without any sort of conditions whatsoever. Jesus rejected greed, violence, the glorification of power, the amassing of wealth without social balance, and the personal judging of others, their lifestyles and beliefs. Yet here you are, Mister Christian, judging others, their lifestyles and their beliefs because they aren't YOUR Christian beliefs. You're defining what constitutes Christian beliefs, setting that standard, and essentially looking down your nose in judgment (I daresay condemning) anyone who isn't LIKE YOU. Here you are, defining any woman who has an abortion as a slut, a career woman, rape victim, or "whatever". Mighty fucking judgmental of you there.

Matthew 19:21: "If you would be perfect, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven". Obviously I'm paraphrasing since clearly **** don't know the New Testament as well as Christians. But the gist is clear. That's pretty liberal. Oooh, how about the Tea Party? NO TAXES! NO TAXES! How many Christians identify with the Tea Party? I can tell you two: Michele "Hell's Barbie" Bachmann and Rick "Yeehaw!" Perry. NO TAXES! NO TAXES! Matthew 22:21: "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto G-d what is G-d's." Now again obviously I'm paraphrasing off the top of my head. But clearly this must be liberal, right? And hell, Christians can just throw this out because hey, Caesar's been dead for over 2000 years! You don't owe him shit!

Certainly liberals don't have a monopoly on compassion, equality, inclusion, forgiveness, tolerance, peace, love and understanding. But neither does the conservative/right have a monopoly on Jesus.

And as has been pointed out, there's a big gap between the millions of single-cell potential people living in my pants and infanticide.
Better watch out, Traak will have you arrested for genocide if you so much as have a wet dream, let alone jerk off.

[Vecha]

Well Said Firefly.

[Traak]

It doesn't affect me unless it's my child. Just as when someone else has an abortion it doesn't affect me. Just as when someone on death row is executed it doesn't affect me. The primary concern during a murder investigation is catching and punishing the murderer. Being concerned about the murder victim more than anything else is myopic and false. It won't bring them back.

I am interested in murder prevention, actually. Unborn or not.

...I don't try to inflict my point of view on abortion on other people. As I said before - if you don't like abortion, don't have one.

Abortion victims had even less say in the matter than you do on having someone else express their point of view. If I passed by a child, bound and gagged, with someone about to murder him or her, I think I would be inclined to prevent the murder. Even if the child could not speak on their own behalf. Even if the child wanted to be murdered, which would never happen. Suicide: I was making the point that suicide only involves one person, and it is illegal. That means that it is people telling you what you can and can't do, when it only involves yourself. Interfering, as it were.

Psalm 106:38
38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

I object to someone inflicting their faith on me by way of trying to tell me how to live.

Abortion victims, as I said, aren't consulted on the matter. Why do they get no say? Who will speak for them? I will. If that means people getting all offended, well, undesirable byproduct. God helped me help a girl I knew not have an abortion, once. I saw the boy years later, and his proud and happy mother. Do I think it is a bad thing that I spoke up? No.

I object to anyone, Muslim *** or Christian, who says "This is my religious belief, you have to live this way."

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Luke 1:41
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Baby=person

What I don't admire is the fact that I don't find many Christians to be Christ-like.

Jesus is as he is expressed in the Bible. God, being almighty, made sure we would have his Word, in written form, so we could know him.

1 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The reason many things aren't in the Bible is because they aren't scripture, not given by inspiration of God, and thus, not the word of God. It doesn't matter if Clem the prophet wrote a book, and the book has some true stuff in it. If it wasn't given by inspiration of God, and isn't scripture, it doesn't make it into the Word of God.

What is in the Bible, especially the New Testament, we are obligated to follow. This includes proclaiming truth. Not only mentioning quietly whatever truth someone else approves.

Let's examine the greatest Christian of all time...judging others, their lifestyles and their beliefs because they aren't YOUR Christian beliefs.

The Word of God is what judges between right and wrong. Expressing what the Word of God says isn't judgmental any more than someone saying to you "You can't park there." is judgmental.

Matthew 19:21: "If you would be perfect, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven".

I quote this much for context:
Mark 10
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

That was a single instruction given to a specific man on a specific occasion.

Certainly liberals don't have a monopoly on compassion, equality, inclusion, forgiveness, tolerance, peace, love and understanding. But neither does the conservative/right have a monopoly on Jesus.

Unborn children are people, too. And they, more than any others in society qualify for equality, inclusion, tolerance, peace, love, and understanding.

[Crator]

Suicide: I was making the point that suicide only involves one person, and it is illegal. That means that it is people telling you what you can and can't do, when it only involves yourself. Interfering, as it were.

United States

Historically, various states listed the act of suicide as a felony, but these policies were sparsely enforced. In the late 1960s, eighteen U.S. states lacked laws against suicide.[10] By the late 1980s, thirty of the fifty states had no laws against suicide or suicide attempts but every state had laws declaring it to be felony to aid, advise or encourage another person to commit suicide.[11] By the early 1990s only two states still listed suicide as a crime, and these have since removed that classification.

[Firefly]

Suicide: I was making the point that suicide only involves one person, and it is illegal. That means that it is people telling you what you can and can't do, when it only involves yourself. Interfering, as it were.
Crator did much to address your statement on suicide, which was the only intelligent non-biased point you made to address ANYTHING I said in rebuttal to your heretical views on Christianity. In light of that, I'm going to take it easy on you and provide my own reply to the quoted portion.

Unless the person is alone, unmarried, no parents, no siblings, no children, no partner, and has ZERO obligation to the rest of the world by way of car payments, rent, things like that, it is impossible that suicide "only involves yourself".

Suicide is an incredibly selfish act in that one removes themselves from the problem and yet saddle those burdens PLUS their death on everyone around them. The suicide "victim" is gone, but their messy remains are all over the place for someone else to clean up. G-d forbid they have a family. My close friend committed suicide, leaving behind a wife and three kids. All of whom happened to be present when he killed himself. So yeah. Gonna have to say you're still full of shit that suicide affects only one person. Probably because of instances like that did they try to make it illegal, in terms of the spirit of the law. Crator already covered the letter of the law.

Jesus is as he is expressed in the Bible. God, being almighty, made sure we would have his Word, in written form, so we could know him.
None of the long-winded crap you wrote does a single thing to address anything that I said, particularly the bits about your bold and false assertion that Jesus was a Conservative Christian as that term is defined within America today. At no point did you do anything to address Jesus being a flaming Liberal except for some token answer about Jesus' statement about the poor being to one person. I could destroy that, but I think your inability to reply coherently proved my point. So I'm going to presume you have no rebuttal and cannot refute the statement. I now consider the matter closed. What have we learned, folks?

Jesus was not only a Liberal, he was also a ***. And many Christians are not very Christ-like.

[Effective]

God approve of infanticide

[Traak]

Actually, I just left off arguing with you. If that makes you feel that your position is thus, somehow perfect and awesome, feel free to do so.

As Christians, at least Christians who follow the Word as best we can, we tend to just look to the Word for stuff that you base on other things. You may call this unscientific, or whatever it is you call it, but it is how we work.

If believing in God, and attempting to follow what the Word says is your basis to assure yourself that you are thus vastly superior and more evolved than us, well, no one can make you think otherwise. No point in going on, as you said.

People will find reasons to back up what they believe, whatever it is. My reasons are in the Word of God for much of what I believe.

[Crator]

If believing in God, and attempting to follow what the Word says is your basis to assure yourself that you are thus vastly superior and more evolved than us, well, no one can make you think otherwise. No point in going on, as you said.

Wat? Someone here claiming vast superiority/more evolved over someone else?

[Quovatis]

Ah yes, god is so concerned for babies:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB

[Geist]

Ah yes, god is so concerned for babies:
Ah yes, because the bible hasn't been around for thousands of years and hasn't been changed by corrupt leaders trying to justify their own cruelty. The bible can't be used as evidence of anything, ever.

And you don't need a religion to be against abortion, you just have to understand human nature. We will always go for convenience over inconvenience, and it certainly doesn't help when scientist get paid off to say, " That's not a baby, that's a parasitical creature known as a fetus and needs to be removed." And now that this has been legal for over 30 years, outlawing it now would be the same as admitting to the largest case of infanticide in the history of mankind.

Personally, killing the potential for life is the same thing as killing a life, as soon as that baby dies, that's a lifetime of memories that will never happen, and I don't think anyone has the right to take that chance to live away.

That is not to say I disagree with sex ed and contraceptives, as long as it's not fertilized, you can kill all the sperm and eggs you want.

[Accuser]

That is not to say I disagree with sex ed and contraceptives, as long as it's not fertilized, you can kill all the sperm and eggs you want.

I hope you can at least see how that distinction is a little arbitrary. The Catholic Church (by discouraging contraception) effectively says that 1 cell is a person. You say that 2 cells is a person. Pro-choice advocates say it takes quite a few more.

[Quovatis]

Ah yes, because the bible hasn't been around for thousands of years and hasn't been changed by corrupt leaders trying to justify their own cruelty. The bible can't be used as evidence of anything, ever.

I agree. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of Traak's posts, where he cherry-picks the bible for stuff he likes, but ignores the rest.

it certainly doesn't help when scientist get paid off to say, " That's not a baby, that's a parasitical creature known as a fetus and needs to be removed."

What? You're saying scientists get paid to say it's a fetus and not a baby? An unborn child is called a fetus. That's the meaning of the word. Once the child is born, it's called a baby. Do farmers get paid off to call an orange an orange? That's silly. Do you call fish "sea kittens" like PETA does?

[Geist]

I hope you can at least see how that distinction is a little arbitrary. The Catholic Church (by discouraging contraception) effectively says that 1 cell is a person. You say that 2 cells is a person. Pro-choice advocates say it takes quite a few more.

Sperm/eggs have your own DNA, killing them yourself, is like getting a haircut, no one cares because it's a part of yourself. Now, when an egg is fertilized, guess what? It has a new, unique DNA belonging only to itself. Thus why I believe life upon conception and not life before conception.

What? You're saying scientists get paid to say it's a fetus and not a baby? An unborn child is called a fetus. That's the meaning of the word. Once the child is born, it's called a baby. Do farmers get paid off to call an orange an orange? That's silly. Do you call fish "sea kittens" like PETA does?
I'm not saying that's not what their called, but you have to admit that scientists are being used to support the abortionist cause and devalue the life of a child before birth.

Fetus isn't a bad word, but the word of scientists concerning when life begins is more political than fact. After all, if life began when the baby could support itself, most people on the earth can't be considered life.

[Quovatis]

After all, if life began when the baby could support itself, most people on the earth can't be considered life.

I think most pro-choice people would say life doesn't begin when a baby can support itself, it's when the a baby/fetus is viable, meaning it can survive outside the womb, given the proper care. That cutoff is around 22-25 weeks after conception. Most state abortion laws are around 21 weeks, and I agree with that.

[Geist]

I think most pro-choice people would say life doesn't begin when a baby can support itself, it's when the a baby/fetus is viable, meaning it can survive outside the womb, given the proper care. That cutoff is around 22-25 weeks after conception. Most state abortion laws are around 21 weeks, and I agree with that.

Okay, I can respect that, but even so, if the baby would be able to grow, to live, if it went through the natural stages of pregnancy, then it is viable, as in "having a reasonable chance of succeeding".

Not that any of you need to listen to me, but don't any of you find the great loss in potential in every baby aborted regrettable? You never know if one of them could have been the next great leader, or scientist, or even a guy who saved the world due to blind luck and the fact that he was alive(you never know :p)

[Quovatis]

Not that any of you need to listen to me, but don't any of you find the great loss in potential in every baby aborted regrettable? You never know if one of them could have been the next great leader, or scientist, or even a guy who saved the world due to blind luck and the fact that he was alive(you never know :p)

They could also be the next mass murderer. You never know.

[Geist]

They could also be the next mass murderer. You never know.

Touchè.

Still, I don't think we should be killing babies because of something they may do.

[Vecha]

Not that any of you need to listen to me, but don't any of you find the great loss in potential in every baby aborted regrettable? You never know if one of them could have been the next great leader, or scientist, or even a guy who saved the world due to blind luck and the fact that he was alive(you never know :p)


First off, I want to say I appreciate your civil tone/approach.

I respect your opinion and I would never say it's "wrong."

However...every Sperm/Egg(while part of "your" DNA) also has the potential, if given the chance, to become something great.

With that said...for the most part...I "personally" would never tell my wife to have an abortion..but I would also never tell her not to.

I think we should leave it up to whoever is in that situation to decide...just like we let people choose to use a condom or not.

I won't say no to restrictions on abortions(20 weeks or less)...but an outright ban I could not agree with. Mostly because those who don't....may end up looking for other alternatives....

[Firefly]

I just committed infanticide. Or rather, my girlfriend did.

She swallowed.

[Accuser]

I just committed infanticide. Or rather, my girlfriend did.

She swallowed.

Jonathan Swift would be proud.

[Quovatis]

The atoms in that burnt piece of toast you threw in the garbage has the potential to be part of an embryo too. You never gave that carbon atom a chance! It could have been part of a life. How far do you go?

[Firefly]

The atoms in that burnt piece of toast you threw in the garbage has the potential to be part of an embryo too. You never gave that carbon atom a chance! It could have been part of a life. How far do you go?
I just got rid of a large container of moldy Mystery-mass in my fridge. SOMEONE STOP ME! I AM THE DESTROYER OF WORLDS!

[BUGGER]

I think most pro-choice people would say life doesn't begin when a baby can support itself, it's when the a baby/fetus is viable, meaning it can survive outside the womb, given the proper care. That cutoff is around 22-25 weeks after conception. Most state abortion laws are around 21 weeks, and I agree with that.

I believe this is just. I think everyone agrees here abortion is something no one wants to settle on. But in a case of an unwanted pregnancy, whether it was because of ignorance or every measure of protection was used, there should be a fall back if they don't want a child. Is it selfish? Yes, absolutely. So is offloading a newborn to another family (that said, I believe adopting is very noble and I wish many blessings upon them). For me investing a need or wanting is when a child becomes a child. If it's been 6 months and you think up some reason for why you cannot go on with a pregnancy, your a moron. You accepted that the bellymonster is indeed a living human, and now you want to kill it. Sorry, no veto. If you hanger the baby out you've committed murder.

Other extreme cases abortion should be used is if it is detremental to the woman's health. Ofcourse every attempt should be made to prolong life, but if the risk is too great....sorry Timmy. Doctors do this every day when they're dealt two crash victims. Don't go telling me that is wrong or else the world's biggest serial killers work at Kaiser.


In the end, it's simple. Don't want one, don't get one. Don't tell me I have to build a fence around my yard because you don't like looking at my boat. And don't tell me you don't like looking at my fence. It's her body, it's her choice.

http://ih1.redbubble.net/work.5241745.1.fig,red,mens,fbfbfb.lost-john-locke-dont-tell-me-what-i-cant-do-v3.jpg


And frankly, I believe I am Lutheran, liberalish (libertarian, tests tell me), and I agree with abortion (along with gay rights, gun rights, etc). Why, obviously some of these ideas counter each other.

Because I can. The reason why I invest in a religion is like having moral insurance. If I'm wrong and gay people are indeed scum of the earth, atleast I go to church on the weekends to forgive myself for all my wrongs that I either knowingly or unknowingly committed. Think that's stupid? It's ok, I believe you have a right to your own opinion as well. Be vocal, don't be shy.

[Vecha]

The atoms in that burnt piece of toast you threw in the garbage has the potential to be part of an embryo too. You never gave that carbon atom a chance! It could have been part of a life. How far do you go?



That's my point.

It's up in the air what "life" is. It's different to many people.

A catholic way of viewing it...at least a traditional catholic view...is to see the sperm as a potential of life.

So...how far should it go?

The way "I" or someone else dictates?

[Geist]

I just got rid of a large container of moldy Mystery-mass in my fridge. SOMEONE STOP ME! I AM THE DESTROYER OF WORLDS!

BURN IT!!! BURN IT WITH FIRE!!!!
That's my point.

It's up in the air what "life" is. It's different to many people.

A catholic way of viewing it...at least a traditional catholic view...is to see the sperm as a potential of life.

So...how far should it go?

The way "I" or someone else dictates?
In regards to the whole sperm/egg thing, I'm a Libertarian, it's part of your body, you do whatever the hell you want with it, potential or not, I won't say anything. However, my personal belief is when something starts growing in a woman's uterus and has it's own unique DNA, it is a separate entity, with it's own rights and I feel they deserves every chance to succeed.

Instead of killing off the ones who haven't decided who they will be yet, why not purge the ones who've proven they're too fucking idiotic to live, and are a danger not only to themselves, but everyone around them. I'd support that 100%. ;)

[Firefly]

How about if you have The Worms and you take a shit? Is it murder?

[Geist]

I think I won the argument. That's a first. :D

[Accuser]

Arguing about abortion is like the dairy challenge. Nobody wins.

[Vecha]

Arguing about abortion is like the dairy challenge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enY771qAmvk). Nobody wins.

YES!!!

[BorisBlade]

PS: When kennedy said that in 1962, the top bracket was 91%, and capital gains 25%. Food for thought...

People always forget that, and btw our economy was still tops even at that rate, totally killing most republican . And yes the beginning quote to this thread, totally out of context. Goes well with death panels and all the other completely idiotic spin comin from republicans since they went nutso in the last 10-15 years.

[Geist]

Goes well with death panels and all the other completely idiotic spin comin from republicans since they went nutso in the last 10-15 years.

Have been listening to politicians in general over the past 10-15 years? Our entire government has gone completely insane, it's no one party's fault. Anyone who believes that is blind.