SoE should invite hackers to break the game

[Grapes]

I really think they should do this at some point in the closed beta. Since this is a F2P game, there will be a LOT of people trying it out, and a lot of them will probably create grief-accounts aswell. I think it would be a good move from SoE to pay some hackers to find at least the easiest exploits before launch, so that they can get sorted out and be better prepared.

Thoughts?

[Vetto]

One should not ever Encourage hackers, but deal with them when found. Hackers are not in it to help a company, there in it for the Lulz, or to ruin a game.

[Grapes]

One should not ever Encourage hackers, but deal with them when found. Hackers are not in it to help a company, there in it for the Lulz, or to ruin a game.

I think you miss the point. I'm not saying SoE should encourage players to hack, but rather get in contact with people who have experience with hacking, and work with them to find flaws in their system.

[Vash02]

Hire hackers, never invite them.

[Shigins]

I have a Network Security Degree myself and this is pretty common within the corporate world... SoE should look at this

you hire a white hat hacker to come in and test your system to find the exploits so you can fix them before they get attacked..... it easier to prevent something then to repair the damage.

[NewSith]

No decent hacker would sacrifice his profit. Those who did, though, are not in lines of the current source code.

[Mechzz]

Have to agree with this. I even suggested that SOE hire white hats in the "Oh noes, First Platoon" thread the other day.

They (SOE) should try hard to break their own game. I know I would if it was my game and I was serious about trying to defend it.

[ringring]

I have a Network Security Degree myself and this is pretty common within the corporate world... SoE should look at this

you hire a white hat hacker to come in and test your system to find the exploits so you can fix them before they get attacked..... it easier to prevent something then to repair the damage.

Exactly and after SOE accounts were hacked I'd be astonished if they didn't do just this.

Actually actually, thinking about this again there is PCI DSS standard, I wonder if the banks 'fined' SOE? (Slightly off topic.)

[Vetto]

I think you miss the point. I'm not saying SoE should encourage players to hack, but rather get in contact with people who have experience with hacking, and work with them to find flaws in their system.

People who "hack" for companies are called devs, they do that now, a hacker finds something a dev over looked, Again NEVER Encourage hackers, do not put a sign up saying "Hey, do you enjoy breaking games! Have a history of it!? ruin the game for others! Why not come help us in are game!"

Most hackers will keep a few secrets to exploit for profit, As i said, Deal with hackers as they are found move on and show the community you would deal with them correctly and not hand them an invitation to do so.

Edit: And if you mean Network Security they have those, that there job BUT Network Security =/= Hacker, you HIRE a Network Security you do not invite a hacker.

[Grapes]

People who "hack" for companies are called devs, they do that now, a hacker finds something a dev over looked, Again NEVER Encourage hackers, do not put a sign up saying "Hey, do you enjoy breaking games! Have a history of it!? ruin the game for others! Why not come help us in are game!"

Most hackers will keep a few secrets to exploit for profit, As i said, Deal with hackers as they are found move on and show the community you would deal with them correctly and not hand them an invitation to do so.

Stop being ignorant, and re-read what you just wrote.

"Hackers find what devs overlooked" exactly the point, Mr.Intelligence

[Vetto]

Stop being ignorant, and re-read what you just wrote.

"Hackers find what devs overlooked" exactly the point, Mr.Intelligence

This coming from the idiot who doesn't get the point of what I am saying. They have people for them that think like hackers to try and find exploits.

A REAL Hacker as in a REAL not a hired on tech help IS NOT THERE TO HELP! They are there to make a profit, find an exploit other over looked and to abuse the living shit out of it threw external means, They have 0 desire to help SoE cause it far more Fun/Profitable to just sell or use the exploit.

It be like giving all of Anonymous a invite to Ps2 Does that seem like a good idea to you?

[Mechzz]

This coming from the idiot who doesn't get the point of what I am saying. They have people for them that think like hackers to try and find exploits.

A REAL Hacker as in a REAL not a hired on tech help IS NOT THERE TO HELP! They are there to make a profit, find an exploit other over looked and to abuse the living shit out of it threw external means, They have 0 desire to help SoE cause it far more Fun/Profitable to just sell or use the exploit.

It be like giving all of Anonymous a invite to Ps2 Does that seem like a good idea to you?

You're maybe being a littlle overly literal in your interpretation Vetto. We understand that "real" hackers don't want to help SOE. But there are "good guys" out there with hacking skills who can and do want to help out, maybe for a fee. SOE need to engage with that group.

Because Anonymous will come calling, asked or not.

[Fanglord]

One should not ever Encourage hackers, but deal with them when found. Hackers are not in it to help a company, there in it for the Lulz, or to ruin a game.

white hats.

[Papscal]

I am sure beta will have many hacking attempts.

[Nasher]

This is something games devs seem to skip on. Your supposed to test software in this way :/

[GuyShep]

white hats.

This. You should look it up, Vetto.

Also, Anonymous isn't real.

[fishirboy]

This coming from the idiot who doesn't get the point of what I am saying. They have people for them that think like hackers to try and find exploits.

A REAL Hacker as in a REAL not a hired on tech help IS NOT THERE TO HELP! They are there to make a profit, find an exploit other over looked and to abuse the living shit out of it threw external means, They have 0 desire to help SoE cause it far more Fun/Profitable to just sell or use the exploit.

It be like giving all of Anonymous a invite to Ps2 Does that seem like a good idea to you?

Yes, yes I do, it would be funny first off because they would love the game and want more! :love: then release the whole game before it came out! Also they would not show up because there in some other country so that they can't get hit by Americans stupid government. :love:

[Vetto]

This. You should look it up, Vetto.

Also, Anonymous isn't real.

Ya that large attack on Sony that shut down servers never happened. Also white hat =network dev=\= hacker

[Trafalgar]

Hacker

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Luieburger]

Chances are they already have a group of these folks working for SOE.

They'd be stupid not to, especially with a game like this. Rest assured, SOE has most likely hired a crack team of security folks.

[Trafalgar]

If not, some of the beta-testers will poke the beta with pointy sticks and see what comes loose (but it (finding potential security flaws and exploits, testing for whether they're really exploitable, and reporting them) is obviously far more efficient and effective with source code, which is why SoE would likely want a team working for them).

[GuyShep]

Ya that large attack on Sony that shut down servers never happened. Also white hat =network dev== hacker

That doesn't prove anonymous' existence.

Also, white hats are hackers. The difference is that their role is to help whomever they're hired by, while the hackers that are in it to profit off of aimbots or cracking into things to ruin somebody's day are what you're concerned about, black hats.

[Shigins]

Ok as a person with a degree in the subject im going to stop all this bitching...

a Hacker = someone who likes to play with code and find vulenarbilities

a Cracker = a Malicious person who attempts to cause damage by performing hacking techniques

THERE A DIFFERENCE!!!!

Please dont post on the subject if you dont know what it means

[Trafalgar]

I don't bother correcting people on that anymore. Easier to just quote Inigo Montoya at them.

[JHendy]

They have people for them that think like hackers to try and find exploits.

And he's saying they should hire more of them to further proof the game.

The OP was pretty clear, you need to re-read his posts Vetto.

[TheInferno]

Vetto, while hacker has a primarily negative connotation, especially in the gaming communities, it's just a term. In fact, White Hat Hackers and Black Hat Hackers are terms used to differentiate a hacker who's out to actually help improve security from one out to break in.

You should not confuse the activity with the intent. Also, calling someone an idiot when they actually know what they are talking about, unlike you, is not good form.

(also, cool to see someone else going into Network Security! :))

Also I just realized GuyShep said basically what I did. Oh well.

[Pella]

If you learned how to hack a game, And create undetected software.

Would you:

A: Sell it to the masses and pull in £30k Tax free a month from subscribers
B: Go work for SOE with the fear of redundancy.
C: Tell SOE how you developed this money printing machine.

[Fanglord]

Ya that large attack on Sony that shut down servers never happened. Also white hat =network dev== hacker

Im by no far programmer savvy, but as far as I am aware white hat is a term to describe a hacker that hacks for the enjoyment and to direct company's to flaws in their own code/systems. Also from what i've read alot of these people get hired as QA and security.

[TheInferno]

If you learned how to hack a game, And create undetected software.

Would you:

A: Sell it to the masses and pull in £30k Tax free a month from subscribers
B: Go work for SOE with the fear of redundancy.
C: Tell SOE how you developed this money printing machine.

If I had a legitimate business as white hat hackers? C. I'll make more money with a good reputation and multiple jobs, and, this is just me, but I like playing games, and I hate it when people hack them and ruin it for everyone else.

The point is, though, if they do hire hackers, they shouldn't be picking people up off the street to do it. They would need to go to a big security organization with a good reputation who's done work for big companies before (such as banks, Fortune 500 corporations, and governments, aka people who they can steal a lot more from) with no problems.

Besides, it's not like they don't get paid well.

[Cuross]

Not all hackers have malicious intent. There are ethical hackers or the otherwise known and aforementioned "white hat" hackers. Yes, they are part of the development team, but they are indeed hackers, fishing around the codes within the program and looking for loopholes, variables, redundancies, etc, etc, etc,. Then there are their counterparts, the ones that DO try to break into a program and exploit it, it's the job of these ethical hackers to take apart the system and figure it all out to try to prevent further breaks. A hacker is any person who tweaks, changes, or modifies a piece of hardware or software, whether for good or evil, the title is the same.

As far as the OP, I agree, they should hire some hackers to take a look at their software, the more things they can figure out before full launch, the better. But I bet they already have at least a good core group of software and system managers doing that all as we speak :)

[Pella]

If I had a legitimate business as white hat hackers? C. I'll make more money with a good reputation and multiple jobs, and, this is just me, but I like playing games, and I hate it when people hack them and ruin it for everyone else.

The point is, though, if they do hire hackers, they shouldn't be picking people up off the street to do it. They would need to go to a big security organization with a good reputation who's done work for big companies before (such as banks, Fortune 500 corporations, and governments, aka people who they can steal a lot more from) with no problems.

Besides, it's not like they don't get paid well.

I am sure sure SOE employ people of this caliber already. As financial insurance if shit hits the fan like it did with Sony.

And in all fairness you look at all of SOEs MMO's and you wont find hacks. Other than planetside which we have to admit is ancient.

[The Degenatron]

You don't have to invite them, they'll come all by themselves.

The question is: Will the mods swing a Ten-Ton Ban Hammer fast and often enough to put a dent in their numbers.

What I wish for is a suit of ban options to be leveled on cheaters all at once:
Account Ban
IP Ban
MAC Ban
OS S/N Ban
Video S/N Ban
CPU S/N Ban
ISP Router Ban (when applicable)

By locking out multiple identifiers at once - the mods have a better chance at frustrating hackers and forcing them to jump though many hoops if they want to attack our game again.

I hope the Mods have the courage to ruthlessly ban on sight, without warning, and without appeal and lose what SOE will (mistakenly) consider a revenue source.

[Pella]

To be honest people that tend to hack wont pay for anything. Thats was even stated in APB quote in this thread someplace.

So banning will come thick and fast im sure. As there not loosing money.

[Timealude]

No decent hacker would sacrifice his profit. Those who did, though, are not in lines of the current source code.

thats not actually true i dont want to bring up non planetside things but look at the leader of anonymous. anyways i think it would be a good idea to hire hackers for temp job showing the anti hacking team what exploits are available. We also dont know a whole lot about the actually team itself for all we know they could be ex hackers hired to do it

[Biscuit]

This reminds me of the story of the Scorpion and the Frog

[TheInferno]

I am sure sure SOE employ people of this caliber already. As financial insurance if shit hits the fan like it did with Sony.

And in all fairness you look at all of SOEs MMO's and you wont find hacks. Other than planetside which we have to admit is ancient.

Oh, I'm not saying they need to, I'm just saying it's a legitimate option.

This reminds me of the story of the Scorpion and the Frog

That's really insulting. Network security guys do have ethical codes about things, report any breaches, never mess with the clients data, etc. Like I said, we aren't talking about people who just hack for fun and lulz, we're talking about professionals.

[Trafalgar]

A few people seem to be making some very broad generalizations and assuming that everyone that could be classified as a "hacker" is a "black hat hacker" and is somehow going to be trying to make money by hacking PS2 (Doesn't seem likely, I mean, they'd have to hack the website and upload a trojaned version of the game or something as a new patch, and it would probably get spotted by AV software unless they used something they wrote from scratch, or a rootkit against an AV software that can't detect it trying to install, and one hopes that the folks running the website hosting the patches, game installers, etc, are paying attention to keeping it secure nowadays), and that no "hackers" would ever pay for anything (ludicrous).

Are you assuming that there are no "white hat hackers?" Although they may be looking for exploits, their purpose in doing so is not to use them for any kind of advantage but to report them in a sufficiently detailed report such that they can be corrected, to improve the game. Personally, if I find an exploit in the beta, I would report it. I want the game to be as exploit-free as possible (and I mean exploits, not balance issues), because I want to play a fair game, which means it's obviously in my best interests and the best interests of anyone else thinking the same thoughts to report all exploits that I or they find.

Of course, getting enough detail to make a really good report may require a fair amount of testing, e.g. to determine what is actually going on and make sure you're not going to submit an incorrect report blaming the wrong thing for the issue, how to reliably reproduce it, etc, whether we're talking about normal bugs or something exploitable.

Also, the kind of hacks that you hear about on the news are different from exploits in games, which tend to be along the lines of flaws in game logic allowing you to do something you aren't supposed to be able to do, such as (random example) bypassing ability cooldowns by doing something which happens to reset the cooldowns to 0 which really shouldn't be doing so, or glitching through walls using vehicles, or any number of other things. On the more complicated and effort-requiring end, investigating the messages between the client and server (a lot of effort without source, so probably not worth it if the devs have their own team) to see if it would be possible to exploit anything there, such as making guns say they hit all the time if the hit detection is client-side, or attempting to tell the server that you've pulled off an impossible maneuver / acceleration / deceleration to see if it validates the client's input properly (rejecting invalid input, or constraining input to valid values). It isn't impossible for someone without source access to test things that would require modifying the client or understanding and possibly modifying the datastream between client and server, it's just more difficult and requires a ton of effort (usually).

[maradine]

I am sure sure SOE employ people of this caliber already. As financial insurance if shit hits the fan like it did with Sony.

This is not likely the case. Professional whitebox and blackbox testers are frequently too expensive to retain permanently due to general demand. This is doubly so in the games industry, where salaries are already depressed due to supply. AppSec tends to get brought in for contract SDLC work, as a gate for promotion of code bases to production status, as a contractual requirement with a third party, or not at all.

[Nephilimuk]

I would have thought the product would have gone through extensive and vigorous penetration testing before released into beta. This must be true after last years fun and us losing our personal details. A repeat incident would be lethal to SOE's reputation and Sony's stock.

[indirect]

One should not ever Encourage hackers, but deal with them when found. Hackers are not in it to help a company, there in it for the Lulz, or to ruin a game.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Hackers are hired by multi BILLION dollar companies to crack their software. See; Microsoft, Apple, Mozilla, etc.

Please don't pretend to know what you're talking about.

[maradine]

I would have thought the product would have gone through extensive and vigorous penetration testing before released into beta. This must be true after last years fun and us losing our personal details. A repeat incident would be lethal to SOE's reputation and Sony's stock.

It probably did. They probably caught a big pile of low hanging fruit, and probably found a number of risks that the business will accept. Even with full source access and documentation, there is no penetration testing regimen sufficient to simulate your code being out in the wild over the lifespan of the product. Too much time, too many actors, and you're on a budget.

[Mepper]

I will defenitely try to find glitches, and hack the game in any possible way. Whenever I find something I'll just tell the devs how I did it, and how it could be prevented. And I won't ask any money.

[Nephilimuk]

It probably did. They probably caught a big pile of low hanging fruit, and probably found a number of risks that the business will accept. Even with full source access and documentation, there is no penetration testing regimen sufficient to simulate your code being out in the wild over the lifespan of the product. Too much time, too many actors, and you're on a budget.

I agree once the product has gone live your in reactive patch and test mode. But at the point of release you should have closed down all the common exploits and the obvious exotic.

Free to play or not your still dealing with personal information, which is a commodity, so due diligence at least is expected.

[maradine]

Free to play or not your still dealing with personal information, which is a commodity, so due diligence at least is expected.

And we have no reason to believe it hasn't been applied. :)

[GuyShep]

To be honest people that tend to hack wont pay for anything. Thats was even stated in APB quote in this thread someplace.

So banning will come thick and fast im sure. As there not loosing money.

Actually, it was the exact opposite that was said. G1 and the APB devs were a bit dumbstruck that a good number of hackers spent money on the cash shop, since hackers get banned in waves instead of the moment they get detected, and there's some considerable amount of time between waves.

[RadarX]

I'm fairly certain we aren't going to invite hackers but I've never been involved in a Beta where folks didn't report memory modification, blotting, speedhacks, etc... We will be watching and listening.

[Xaine]

I'm fairly certain we aren't going to invite hackers but I've never been involved in a Beta where folks didn't report memory modification, blotting, speedhacks, etc... We will be watching and listening.

Getting white hats to try and break the game is always a pretty good idea.

Saves nasty people doing it at launch.

[Nasher]

I'm fairly certain we aren't going to invite hackers but I've never been involved in a Beta where folks didn't report memory modification, blotting, speedhacks, etc... We will be watching and listening.

But those are just players reporting stuff they come across, usually after the damage has been done. They are not knowledgable enough to properly test for vulnerabilities.

After Sony got hacked last year and were storing data IN PLAIN TEXT. I'm worried that they really don't know what they are doing when it comes to security :/

[Pillar of Armor]

But those are just players reporting stuff they come across, usually after the damage has been done. They are not knowledgable enough to properly test for vulnerabilities.

Just players, do include software engineers that want to see the game they love working at it's best.

[TheInferno]

It's an option, and whether or not they choose to take it is a higher level decision than probably even Higby or anyone on the Planetside 2 team. If it's made, I doubt we'll ever know about it.

[Figment]

One word: Secant. >.>

[Mepper]

Everyone here could hack if he/she wanted. It doesn't have to be difficult. Just quite a few players should try to hack the game, I hope there are enough people who will try it, just for fun. I will, definetely.
If you don't like your game to get hacked, stop complaining, and help.

[Nasher]

Everyone here could hack if he/she wanted. It doesn't have to be difficult. Just quite a few players should try to hack the game, I hope there are enough people who will try it, just for fun. I will, definetely.
If you don't like your game to get hacked, stop complaining, and help.

Not, not everyone could do it. Everyone could run some script or program that an actual hacker has made. They are known as "script kiddies" and usually become victims themselves :P

[Stew]

I really think they should do this at some point in the closed beta. Since this is a F2P game, there will be a LOT of people trying it out, and a lot of them will probably create grief-accounts aswell. I think it would be a good move from SoE to pay some hackers to find at least the easiest exploits before launch, so that they can get sorted out and be better prepared.

Thoughts?

No need to invite them they already have 10000 beta key at this very momments how you think all those key as been taken in less than 4 second ?

And they have been in battlefield pc alpha and beta so yeah they will be in the beta preparing themself to sell some monthly subscribtion based aimbot

No need to invite them lol

[Pepsi]

Not, not everyone could do it. Everyone could run some script or program that an actual hacker has made. They are known as "script kiddies" and usually become victims themselves :PI think that's the core of this issue. A good hacker is always going to be better than Punkbuster or whatever defense SOE is planning to construct. The most you can hope for is to patch the existing hack methods and wait the few hours until the hacker breaks your program again and distributes the hack among their script kiddie followers. It's a never ending cycle.

I'd say the difference between video game hacking and IRL corporate hacking is there isn't much enforcement in the video game world besides banning (after which the person will make a new account since this is F2P) and there is a lot more demand for hacks since it's unregulated. When one person cracks your game, everyone has cracked your game.

The best thing you can do is make sure no serious hacks like station money frauding come out, which is probably already covered among the devs. I don't really see much of a point to hire "white-hats" in this context.

[Rumblepit]

lmao you will see them in beta.... they wont be invited but some witless wounder is gonna try something.

[Trafalgar]

No need to invite them they already have 10000 beta key at this very momments how you think all those key as been taken in less than 4 second ?

Gee, I don't know, maybe by one of the innumerable people who want to get in after seeing it from E3 footage or hearing about it, typing them in faster? I can be sure there aren't bots instantly grabbing all the publicly tweeted keys, because if there were, I would never have been able to register one of them.

If you (or anyone) is trying to get them by repeatedly refreshing the twitter website, that's just a waste of time. Get an application that streams data from twitter, like TweetDeck or Seesmic Desktop.

[maddoggg]

I actually like the idea of SOE hiring a hacker or two to find and fix their weak spots.

[Chewy]

Ok as a person with a degree in the subject im going to stop all this bitching...

a Hacker = someone who likes to play with code and find vulenarbilities

a Cracker = a Malicious person who attempts to cause damage by performing hacking techniques

THERE A DIFFERENCE!!!!

Please dont post on the subject if you dont know what it means

Im kinda certain that you have that wrong.

Hacker- Anyone that abuses code of any type to gain in one way or another
Cracker- Anyone who's job is to find errors in code that may lead to abuse

Hackers are the guys that use aim-bots and such. Crackers are the ones that are paid to find the loopholes or back doors in code so that they can be fixed.

[Stew]

Gee, I don't know, maybe by one of the innumerable people who want to get in after seeing it from E3 footage or hearing about it, typing them in faster? I can be sure there aren't bots instantly grabbing all the publicly tweeted keys, because if there were, I would never have been able to register one of them.

If you (or anyone) is trying to get them by repeatedly refreshing the twitter website, that's just a waste of time. Get an application that streams data from twitter, like TweetDeck or Seesmic Desktop.

no need for a public beta key here but i know these such thing are doable and iam pretty much sure we will have the artificial aiming crew with us in the beta

100 % sure

[FreekilXAlpha]

Ok as a person with a degree in the subject im going to stop all this bitching...

a Hacker = someone who likes to play with code and find vulenarbilities

a Cracker = a Malicious person who attempts to cause damage by performing hacking techniques

THERE A DIFFERENCE!!!!

Please dont post on the subject if you dont know what it means

Im kinda certain that you have that wrong.

Hacker- Anyone that abuses code of any type to gain in one way or another
Cracker- Anyone who's job is to find errors in code that may lead to abuse

Hackers are the guys that use aim-bots and such. Crackers are the ones that are paid to find the loopholes or back doors in code so that they can be fixed.


By technical definition of many jargon files, Shigins is correct (see: http://www.retrologic.com/jargon/B/black-hat.html )

But if you search the broad source that is the net, you generally wont find a any real consensus, but most hackers i know like to use the "hat" reference. Here's the types I've ran into:

White hat: Considered the good guy, these are our system administrators, and from time to time, our moderators. Their general duty is maintaining, protecting, reinforcing and fixing problems.

Black hat: Considered the bad guys, these are what the general populous consider as "hackers", "crackers", "phreakers", and the general in game cheaters. In reality they are the guys that make the malicious software, not necessarily the guys that use it. But again, if they made it, they generally intend to use it.

Grey hat: A person that doesn't take sides, and does not have malicious or benign intent. This is what the majority of real life hackers, crackers, and phreaking are. If you have the skills, and practice, you fall into this category.

Blue hat: (debatable) This is a term used by Microsoft for the white and grey hats that they higher to do penetration tests. Name is based on the idea of blue and orange morality (not good and evil). Best summed up as hackers for higher.

Hacker: Shigins is mostly correct on this, however a hacker doesn't necessarily find vulnerabilities. see link: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html

Cracker: Chewy is somewhat correct on this, as part of cracking does require finding error in code, however its the use of this technique that determines whether the hacker in question is a white, grey, or black hat. But in reality cracking is simply a technique or method. for more information see: http://catb.org/jargon/html/C/cracker.html

Phreakers: the proto-hackers. They applied the hacking method to phone networks, and started hacker culture as we know it. see: http://catb.org/jargon/html/P/phreaking.html

Script Kiddies: a would be hacker who uses the tools and programs made by coders and hackers. In game cheaters who use aim bots are considered this by the majority of hackers. It should be noted that most hackers will start out as script kiddies unless they get a more formal education in coding.

for more information on hacker culture, i recommend this website: http://catb.org/jargon/html/

I can't stress this enough: Hackers and Crackers are not evil or malicious; in fact a hacker or cracker who is good at what they do will be unknown by you, unless they want you to know their handle. Intent defines your hat, not just the method.

[RadarX]

But those are just players reporting stuff they come across, usually after the damage has been done. They are not knowledgable enough to properly test for vulnerabilities.

After Sony got hacked last year and were storing data IN PLAIN TEXT. I'm worried that they really don't know what they are doing when it comes to security :/

You'd be very surprised what "average players" can be capable of breaking. I know it may be difficult to believe as you can't see what we do, but i assure you a lot will be caught in Beta.

[BigBossMonkey]

You'd be very surprised what "average players" can be capable of breaking. I know it may be difficult to believe as you can't see what we do, but i assure you a lot will be caught in Beta.

Please dont ban me for hacking because I'm going to totally try and wreck stuff.

[SniperSteve]

That is actually an interesting point. Are we allowed to try to hack in beta? o.O

[CidHighwind]

The thing is, the line of what "hacking" is can actually be established in the beta. The beta testers should be the ones who discover what is possible legitmately and what is actually going beyond the design ambitions of the devs in an unconstructive way. 'hacking' as we know it only really becomes firm past release because of the fact that a hard line is established by whatever the balance is established as at release.

In a sense, we are all hacking, because we are being pushed into coding that is inherently incomplete. We are intended to stumble into those holes. That's our job.

[Jinxsey]

The function of beta testers is to break things in a controled and structured environement, before handing the broken things back to the devs and then carefuly explaining what actions you took to break them in the first place.

I imagine, so long as you behaved in a forthright manner the PS2 team would be only too happy for you to go nuts trying to break their game. That's kinda what beta is all about.

[Revanmug]

That is actually an interesting point. Are we allowed to try to hack in beta? o.O

That will depend on your definition of "trying". Sadly, if some people "try" to help, some will "try" for the pleasure of breaking if you understand what I mean. Some element in the testing phase will be alot harder to actually test.

I doubt they will "permit" it for that very reason. If you do it for the good reason and actually succeed and report it, you better be careful.

[Thoreaux]

I think it'd be a pretty good idea to have an acknowledged-but-not-advertised program of rewarding those who come forward with information about previously unknown hacks or security vulnerabilities (provided there was no evidence they had exploited them or profited from them). That's give people some incentive to report stuff to SOE, if they knew they weren't just going to get their account banned for trying to help.

Poor management of stuff like this turns white hats grey. Speaking of which, a nice reward might be a snazzy in-game hat.

[Trafalgar]

Im kinda certain that you have that wrong.

Hacker- Anyone that abuses code of any type to gain in one way or another
Cracker- Anyone who's job is to find errors in code that may lead to abuse

Hackers are the guys that use aim-bots and such. Crackers are the ones that are paid to find the loopholes or back doors in code so that they can be fixed.

Your certainty does not make you correct.


Hacker (term), a term used in computing for several types of person:

Hacker (computer security) or cracker, who accesses a computer system by circumventing its security system
Hacker (hobbyist), who makes innovative customizations or combinations of retail electronic and computer equipment
Hacker (programmer subculture), who shares an anti-authoritarian approach to software development now associated with the free software movement



The second and third definitions are older, along with the definition of "cracker." That definition was misappropriated and crackers were referred to as hackers by the media, pissing actual hackers off, etc etc, leading to the situation today where the public thinks that hacker = evil, when originally it meant something good, and the good meanings are still in use despite the misappropriation of the word for a negative meaning.

[Edit: Of course, I'm going by my own memory, which could also be fallible as well - you never know - and by what I quoted from wikipedia, which might not be quite the same as what other locations would list, but seems close enough]

Your definitions don't match these, either. Perhaps these links will help you understand why.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-certainty-bias
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2011/08/04/4-things-most-people-get-wrong-about-memory/

[I bet there are 10 posts already and the forums will probably post this without showing them to me.]

[Edit: Remarkably close!]

[MonsterBone]

Look anyone messing around hacking the game beta test or not will be in violation of the coc and terms and conditions of the game.

And no doubt will get their asses IP and hardware banned.

[Espion]

You'd be very surprised what "average players" can be capable of breaking. I know it may be difficult to believe as you can't see what we do, but i assure you a lot will be caught in Beta.

I can't remember for sure, but I think it was FireFall that recent gave the OK to hacking in beta so long as the player reported what they had done and didn't share the cheat with anyone else. Doesn't seem like a bad idea imo.

[starshine]

this is what beta's for. beta isn't just some shiny VIP-pass for early access to the game. play beta, report hacks, hacks get fixed. the fact that damage has already been done doesn't matter coz as TB so aptly puts it "beta is beta"

do not hack, reporting is our responsibility, unless one is specifically asked to by the company.

[Otleaz]

Please dont ban me for hacking because I'm going to totally try and wreck stuff.

In beta, this is usually handled by getting permission and reporting your findings to the developers. If you do it without getting permission you are probably going to get banned.

[SKYeXile]

hacks have been a thorn in SOE's side for like a decade now, i think they will be onto this shit.

[Logon]

I've acually always hacked games to learn how they work, never every played with the ones i've figured out tho.
RadarX if i reverseengineer stuff in the beta and report it will i be banned for modifiying my client?

[metziih]

Well it couldn't hurt to invite white-hats to crack/hack the game and see what could be improved.

[Logon]

In all likelihood, yes. In PS1 any memory reader would get banned. So if they catch you snooping whether it be for good intentions your result may be.. :cry:

Remember private hacks never gets you banned :)

Every cheat i have ever made has never banned anyone, even how outragous they are.(always private for myself or maybe a close friend but mostly for education and not really for cheating)

Memory reading is impossible to detect, DirectX wallhacks are almost impossible to detect as they are done after the inital directX call from the game.(PB is acually best at this :P)
The things they look out for is Injected DLL's that are not allowed or memory writing that is very strange.

[Biscuit]

looking over this thread again, cant say im all really for the idea, but am convinced that it is necessary something like this in place, for the greater good per se.

[Blackwolf]

One should not ever Encourage hackers, but deal with them when found. Hackers are not in it to help a company, there in it for the Lulz, or to ruin a game.

Don't confuse punks with programs with hackers. True hackers can actually help a buiseness by, as the OP suggested, getting into the system, finding backdoors, and closing them.

In fact calling them hackers is wrong, even the ones creating the programs. They are programmers, like DEVs, who understand the language well enough to create programs that exploit aspects of it. They don't infiltrate the system at all. A hacker is someone who actually gets into a system they don't belong in, whether physically or through the net.

I actually think people give "hackers" hard ons just by calling them hackers. A bit of prestige involved and all that.

[LightningDriver]

There will be enough people who will try anyways without needing an invitation. The whole point of hacking is to catch people off-guard, inviting them in sort of defeats the purpose.

Hopefully, every hacker that comes in will make security stronger, and in a year, the game will be (mostly) hack free.