Everybody gets to drive everything? WTF?

[Rivenshield]

Maybe I'm just being a reactionary old fart, but this puts me slightly off my feed.

In all modern FPS's anyone can jump into a tank, a chopper, a jet, etc.... but that's for battles that rarely last for more than ten minutes, and then the map resets. In a persistent game like Planetside, I'd kinda like to see us stick with the old system. You get a few free certs to start off with, but you have to make a commitment of sorts. You have to choose whether to spawn or drive a given class of vehicle.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

And on a related note: I have looked, but cannot find, any news on whether or not PS2 will allow us to re-spec our certs. Can we or can't we? or is this another Wait Until Beta issue?

[Kayos]

I don't think we can re-spec certs as they have said there is no need since we can get every cert anyway.

I think we should have to cert for vehicles too.

[Doxy]

You can't respec and to be effective with that vehicle you gotta spec in it.
Each vehicle cost resources to spawn, so you can't spawn them all day long.

[fvdham]

I would assume a medic to be more likely a passenger in a Galaxy or Sunderer than a driver.

[Electrofreak]

Yeah, I'm not too keen on everyone being able to drive everything too, particularly when the driver can be a gunner as well.

I mean, sometimes it was hard to get a full tank column because not everyone was certed in it, but that's why you had specialty outfits.

I'll wait until Beta before I decide if I want to complain about it.

[BillyBob]

I can certainly see where OP is coming from, and being able to just jump into any vehicle and be able to drive or fly it certainly is a considerable step away from how it worked in the original PlanetSide.

However, I imagine I can also see why SOE would go this way with PS2.

Granting immediate use of all vehicles will make the game more accessible from an entry point perspective. It will allow players to very quickly get into the vehicle aspects of the game and figure out if it's something they think is fun and perhaps would like to specialize further in. If there is a vehicle-related role in the game suitable for you, you'll find it quicker and without having to spend certpoints.

Also, as OP mentioned, this is the way most FPS players are used to when it comes to vehicles in those modern shooters that have them. I think it's safe to say that a rather large number of new PS2 players will crossover from that specific category of games.

From what little we've seen of the certification system in PS2, it seems pretty extensive. This could suggest that even though everyone and anyone could use any given vehicle, certing into it will still make a considerable difference and be something of true worth in terms of gameplay.

As for "respeccing" the cert points...I don't know. But if they would allow for it then my guess is there would most likely be a cost involved.

In short, initial access is wide open (basic use of all vehicles), but most likely it's the cert points you put into the vehicles in question that will turn you into that highly specialized unit which for example your Outfit would need or your personal combat role would demand.

If that's the case then I'm perfectly ok with it, as long as what you cert into really does matter and makes a considerable difference.

/BB

[NoDachi]

When I first started hearing details about ps2 I was really put off by the whole class/inventory/cert/vehicle changes, but after playing planetside 1 and watching the e3 streams again I realised I was just being abit of a bitter vet and I can understand and approve of most of the new changes.

[SixShooter]

I'm fine with it. More accessability will mean a larger playerbase and realistically, there just aren't all that many vehicles to choose from at launch anyway.

[Electrofreak]

I can certainly see where OP is coming from, and being able to just jump into any vehicle and be able to drive or fly it certainly is a considerable step away from how it worked in the original PlanetSide.

However, I imagine I can also see why SOE would go this way with PS2.

Granting immediate use of all vehicles will make the game more accessible from an entry point perspective. It will allow players to very quickly get into the vehicle aspects of the game and figure out if it's something they think is fun and perhaps would like to specialize further in. If there is a vehicle-related role in the game suitable for you, you'll find it quicker and without having to spend certpoints.

Also, as OP mentioned, this is the way most FPS players are used to when it comes to vehicles in those modern shooters that have them. I think it's safe to say that a rather large number of new PS2 players will crossover from that specific category of games.

From what little we've seen of the certification system in PS2, it seems pretty extensive. This could suggest that even though everyone and anyone could use any given vehicle, certing into it will still make a considerable difference and be something of true worth in terms of gameplay.

As for "respeccing" the cert points...I don't know. But if they would allow for it then my guess is there would most likely be a cost involved.

In short, initial access is wide open (basic use of all vehicles), but most likely it's the cert points you put into the vehicles in question that will turn you into that highly specialized unit which for example your Outfit would need or your personal combat role would demand.

If that's the case then I'm perfectly ok with it, as long as what you cert into really does matter and makes a considerable difference.

/BB

Your post brings up some excellent points; well written.

[exoteror]

I think having access to all the vehicals is great, Don't you just hate it when someone shouts "everyone pull a reaver" and you need to run to a bio lab waste your respec timer to join the fun.

You can now join in with any fun event, but to be fully effective in the vehical of your choosing you will have cource have to cert into it and buy the extra weapons for the vehical. I think it is a great trade off.

[diLLa]

I think the resource system will make sure not everyone can just spam vehicles all day long.

And certing still makes you specialized in something.

[Crator]

thoughts

Very well said... Was thinking along the same lines myself...

[Notturno]

Maybe I'm just being a reactionary old fart, but this puts me slightly off my feed.

In all modern FPS's anyone can jump into a tank, a chopper, a jet, etc.... but that's for battles that rarely last for more than ten minutes, and then the map resets. In a persistent game like Planetside, I'd kinda like to see us stick with the old system. You get a few free certs to start off with, but you have to make a commitment of sorts. You have to choose whether to spawn or drive a given class of vehicle.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

I feel inclined to agree to a certain point.

I firmly believe that the maximum amount of certifications should be capped. I do not believe anyone should be able to certify in every single specialization if they invest the time into it. I believe it gives veterans too much of an advantage and ultimately homogenizes gameplay at the latter end of the game's lifetime. A year or two after release, you will be left with nothing but maxed out characters who have maximum certifications and no weaknesses in their certification tree. This discourages new players from entering the game, as it will take them an exorbitant amount of time to reach veteran status.

I believe that certifications should have a capped amount that one can achieve; it should be a number decided upon by the development team that allows an individual to "max" maybe four "play styles" and an arbitrary number of weapons and gadgets. For example's sake, let's say twenty-five.

When I say a maximum of four "play styles," I am specifically referring to combinations of classes and vehicles. Play styles would include the six infantry classes, light ground vehicles, heavy ground vehicles, light aircraft, and heavy aircraft. So, someone who is really into infantry combat may choose to max out four different infantry classes. Or maybe someone wants to max out light and heavy ground vehicles, heavy assault, and engineer. What this essentially says is that you can either choose to specialize in a few core areas of the game, or you can spread out your certifications so you can be a more flexible player who can cover more roles. I think this provides a more even footing in the long run; no one person can be maxed out in every single certification, as they must choose a specific path they want to take as a player.

The same logic would apply for weaponry. To have maximized certifications in each weapon is insane; you ultimately end up with veteran players having a raw power advantage over new players, simply because they have the most decked out weapons available in the game. I believe that by capping the number of certifications one can spend on weapons, you are again forcing specialization of roles so players cannot realistically be "the best" at every single weapon and gadget in the game. I believe this would end up following along the same lines as the aforementioned cap on maximized "play styles." You would end up with people spending certifications specializing in their preferred tank's weapon systems, their top five to ten infantry weapons, and top used gadgets for their infantry classes and vehicles. Again, you are offering players the opportunity to either specialize or diversify depending on their preferences.

Now that I've kind of outlined some thoughts on the subject, I guess I'd like to explain the rationale behind it. Like the OP said, I think it's kind of silly to allow everyone to ultimately achieve maximum specialization in every single weapon and class in the game.

To me, it makes more sense to offer a capped certification count to create meaningful role assignments in the game. If everyone can perform every role in the game, I think it kind of defeats the purpose of having progression elements in the first place. To me, it would make more sense to allow everyone to use every game feature available, but individuals would ultimately have to decide what their favorite roles are and spend their certification points on those roles to become better suited to performing them. Creating demand for particular roles in the game is healthy to promote more teamwork among each faction's population, rather than having particular groups becoming insulated due to their ability to perform every role at its maximum potential.

I guess it's just some longing for more MMORPG elements in the game. I just do not like the idea of "maxing" every certification and having nothing left to aspire to.

And on a related note: I have looked, but cannot find, any news on whether or not PS2 will allow us to re-spec our certs. Can we or can't we? or is this another Wait Until Beta issue?

The current certification system allows you to maximize everything, thus the logic is that certification resets will not be available under the current iteration of the system. However, they do not seem firmly decided on the issue; I think it's very likely beta opinions could sway the way certifications ultimately work, and whether or not certification resets are available. However, I recall from numerous interviews that Higby would only want to offer limited resets to prevent abuse of the system.

[Daemonn]

I feel inclined to agree to a certain point.

I firmly believe that the maximum amount of certifications should be capped. I do not believe anyone should be able to certify in every single specialization if they invest the time into it. I believe it gives veterans too much of an advantage and ultimately homogenizes gameplay at the latter end of the game's lifetime. A year or two after release, you will be left with nothing but maxed out characters who have maximum certifications and no weaknesses in their certification tree. This discourages new players from entering the game, as it will take them an exorbitant amount of time to reach veteran status.

I believe that certifications should have a capped amount that one can achieve; it should be a number decided upon by the development team that allows an individual to "max" maybe four "play styles" and an arbitrary number of weapons and gadgets. For example's sake, let's say twenty-five.

When I say a maximum of four "play styles," I am specifically referring to combinations of classes and vehicles. Play styles would include the six infantry classes, light ground vehicles, heavy ground vehicles, light aircraft, and heavy aircraft. So, someone who is really into infantry combat may choose to max out four different infantry classes. Or maybe someone wants to max out light and heavy ground vehicles, heavy assault, and engineer. What this essentially says is that you can either choose to specialize in a few core areas of the game, or you can spread out your certifications so you can be a more flexible player who can cover more roles. I think this provides a more even footing in the long run; no one person can be maxed out in every single certification, as they must choose a specific path they want to take as a player.

The same logic would apply for weaponry. To have maximized certifications in each weapon is insane; you ultimately end up with veteran players having a raw power advantage over new players, simply because they have the most decked out weapons available in the game. I believe that by capping the number of certifications one can spend on weapons, you are again forcing specialization of roles so players cannot realistically be "the best" at every single weapon and gadget in the game. I believe this would end up following along the same lines as the aforementioned cap on maximized "play styles." You would end up with people spending certifications specializing in their preferred tank's weapon systems, their top five to ten infantry weapons, and top used gadgets for their infantry classes and vehicles. Again, you are offering players the opportunity to either specialize or diversify depending on their preferences.

Now that I've kind of outlined some thoughts on the subject, I guess I'd like to explain the rationale behind it. Like the OP said, I think it's kind of silly to allow everyone to ultimately achieve maximum specialization in every single weapon and class in the game.

To me, it makes more sense to offer a capped certification count to create meaningful role assignments in the game. If everyone can perform every role in the game, I think it kind of defeats the purpose of having progression elements in the first place. To me, it would make more sense to allow everyone to use every game feature available, but individuals would ultimately have to decide what their favorite roles are and spend their certification points on those roles to become better suited to performing them. Creating demand for particular roles in the game is healthy to promote more teamwork among each faction's population, rather than having particular groups becoming insulated due to their ability to perform every role at its maximum potential.

I guess it's just some longing for more MMORPG elements in the game. I just do not like the idea of "maxing" every certification and having nothing left to aspire to.



The current certification system allows you to maximize everything, thus the logic is that certification resets will not be available under the current iteration of the system. However, they do not seem firmly decided on the issue; I think it's very likely beta opinions could sway the way certifications ultimately work, and whether or not certification resets are available. However, I recall from numerous interviews that Higby would only want to offer limited resets to prevent abuse of the system.

This was my exact fear coming from PS1 - Players who do put in the time to have a significant amount of specialization, in nearly everything perhaps, are going to have a tool for nearly every situation. This creates the "jack of all trades" situation - but in which the veteran player is actually pretty good at all of the things he wants to do.

It may not seem like a huge issue but in 6mo-1yr I wonder how far through the cert tree the hardcore players will end up. Designers say 3 years, which would be great, but can they tell the community in confidence "yes it will take the most hardcore of players 3 years at minimum to reach all or 90% maxed certs"? If they can, I'm cool with their system because I'm sure within 3 years they will add enough content to keep those hardcore players chasing the carrot, hopefully never being able to max out everything.

But if 3 years is a generous guess, and people end up maxing out as quick as battlefield games, I think there will be a serious problem with the game. One of the great and innovative things PS1 did that I feel many games missed, is leaving your role open ended. You got to choose your combat role. Certifications and that whole system made sense, you had to basically go get a license to do what you wanted to do. You had to get a more advanced license to do the really specialized stuff.

Earning and permanently unlocking things is ok, but if eventually people do unlock 75-90% of everything at peak, then they become able to counter whatever is going on in any fight. Vehicles? I'm certed in one way or another to kill em pretty good. Infantry? See above. MAXes or Air? See vehicles or infantry. On top of that, you'll be able to fly, drive or fight in or with specialized weapons and vehicles. It sounds like you get to have your cake and eat it too. Fun for some, but diminishes the need for teamwork over time. It might have sucked to not be able to counter armor or air, but thats why you were hopefully in a squad or platoon where a buddy did have the certs. Or at the very least someone near you... It gets easier to become a lone wolf over time if you unlock everything and get to keep it all.

Sure PS1 eventually did BR40, but the best days were before that. You had some basics everyone ran with, but past that you knew who the specialists were. Who the hardcore hackers were. Or who the best reaver pilots were. Or why that certain tank squad always seemed to best you. Outfits were known for their specialized roles they defined for themselves. It was a "player restriction that ultimately limited what you could do" but it worked for the better of the game! And the best part was... it was successful!

Players in PS1 didn't feel limited - they felt specialized and elite. This cert system has the potential to take it to the next level, the framework is there. It looks great from what I've seen and I love the depth. I think with the current system and amount of options that the PS2 team has come up with putting a cap on certs or battle ranks can be a good thing. Something that stimulates life into the game more so than allowing everyone to unlock everything - or to head in that direction at least.

Allow players to respec certain amount of points at a time on a timer and/or make it cost money, but cap it as Notturno said to "4 playstyles" or something close to that. I would say at max, a soldier should be able to do 50-65% of everything available in game. This would allow them to specialize deep enough while maintaining enough options to let them feel accomplished and veteran. As new content releases the cert cap will rise, but no one will ever be able to do everything - which will keep players playing as it means something and takes time to specialize into certain roles but once you earn the certs you can shift them around to dynamically change your playstyle.

Once you've maxed out or near maxed out everything in PS2, whats the point? Wait for new content? Again, this is unless the PS2 cert system really is 3 years worth of time to complete at launch... Beta will tell a lot. Can't wait to start playing and giving feedback.

[Figment]

I can certainly see where OP is coming from, and being able to just jump into any vehicle and be able to drive or fly it certainly is a considerable step away from how it worked in the original PlanetSide.

However, I imagine I can also see why SOE would go this way with PS2.

Granting immediate use of all vehicles will make the game more accessible from an entry point perspective. It will allow players to very quickly get into the vehicle aspects of the game and figure out if it's something they think is fun and perhaps would like to specialize further in. If there is a vehicle-related role in the game suitable for you, you'll find it quicker and without having to spend certpoints.

Considering the speed with which people get cert points and that they'll never have to make a definite choice yes.


The problem with this argument is that players won't always be beginners and that this facilitates everyone getting the same super heavy setups.

Also, as OP mentioned, this is the way most FPS players are used to when it comes to vehicles in those modern shooters that have them. I think it's safe to say that a rather large number of new PS2 players will crossover from that specific category of games.

Being used to something is no reason to not ever get used to something else that might be more balanced or have other perfectly valid arguments for different design decisions in a different context.

It's always funny how PS2 is refered to as "another game from PS1", but when it's related to other games than PS1, it should all be the same to not alienate players...


...Uh...

From what little we've seen of the certification system in PS2, it seems pretty extensive. This could suggest that even though everyone and anyone could use any given vehicle, certing into it will still make a considerable difference and be something of true worth in terms of gameplay.

This whole argument of having to put specialisation in a class doesn't really hold up, because there's not going to be much difference between a specced and a non-specced player, remember? And over time, people get to have everything AND thus be good at everything...

Short term thinking was what got us over 150 CR5s in the past few days in one command channel, 75% or more of which are incapable of thinking because they reached CR5 too fast thanks to their zergfit and the increase in CEP gain (doubled) that became permanent at some point.

As for "respeccing" the cert points...I don't know. But if they would allow for it then my guess is there would most likely be a cost involved.

I would assume Station Cash or the Pro7 valuta yes.

In short, initial access is wide open (basic use of all vehicles), but most likely it's the cert points you put into the vehicles in question that will turn you into that highly specialized unit which for example your Outfit would need or your personal combat role would demand.

And over time in an overspecialised unit = a generalist.

If that's the case then I'm perfectly ok with it, as long as what you cert into really does matter and makes a considerable difference.

/BB

So you say it's fine that everyone can make a 'considerable difference' in every role over time (though we'll just have to see how considerable), JUST because it's a long way from now? Okay. Hypocritical, but okay.

[Notturno]

Above post.

I just wanted to say I really enjoyed reading that, and I basically agree with everything you've said. I think capping the maximum specialization to a specific percentage of the overall content is a great way to offer veterans an opportunity to feel empowered as long time players, without giving them an option for every single situation that can occur within the game. I believe you also open up the ability to potentially have a "re-certification" process, in which players sacrifice their current certifications in a particular tree, then re-earn the certifications to invest them somewhere else. It gives a potentially infinite progression system where players are always able to "re-cert" into their ideal play style, but they have to earn those certifications by playing.

It's essentially further incentive to encourage playing the game, particularly the sale of experience boosters. I just thought I would highlight that in case any SOE staff members are reading. ;)

[Xyntech]

I think it will be good as long as the game is well balanced for it. In the first Planetside, vehicles like the ATV and its variants were balanced by the fact that they were such cheep certs compared to other vehicles. Now, everyone will have access to every vehicle, so the importance of making sure that none of them are too over or underpowered and that all of them have valuable niches is very important.

I think it will be a good thing for support vehicles. From my experience in the early days of the first Planetside, a lot of players didn't cert in AMS's or Galaxies because it took valuable cert point space away from stuff that they liked to use a lot more often, such as tanks and combat aircraft, or even infantry certs. Now a player can spend a majority of their time in any other role, but pull a Galaxy or Sunderer if their squad, outfit, or empire in general really needs it. At least I know I'll do that. I'll probably be spending most of my time and cert points on LA and the Scythe, but I'll be more than happy to fill in on support if it's needed.

Where I see it hurting the most are on ATV's and other formerly certed items which don't have a ton of value on their own merits. ATV's were a cheap cert and even Rexo could ride them, but beyond that and some occasional surprise tactics with some of their weapons variants, they were pretty useless. Only the Wraith had intrinsic value due to it's unique Infiltrator support abilities.

I don't see the ability for everyone to suddenly pull reavers as a bad thing. In the first game, an entire outfit could plan ahead and have everyone cert into them for a night to suddenly pull en mass, but PS2 is speeding a lot of things up. It will still take a decent amount of organization to pull off large scale aircav swarms or MAX crashes, just a little less pre-planning.

Players who don't tend to like flying won't fly very often, while players who love using a MAX will tend to use them a lot. I think that personal preference will play a large part in keeping vehicle usage in check to a similar degree to how it was in PS1. If you really wanted to use a vehicle in PS1, you would just cert into it. If you didn't want to use it, it wouldn't matter if you had free access to it, because you still usually wouldn't use it. Like I was saying earlier about me and support roles, I'll be happy to switch to them as needed in PS2, but I probably still won't use them that much, just because they aren't my thing.

So we'll end up with a few more mass tank or aircav pushes than in PS1, but we'll all be able to counter them with our own free access to units such as AA MAXes. It will be a little different, but we'll get used to it, and I think it will actually even out to being more similar to how the distribution of units was in the first game than some are thinking.

As for the problem of it making some units like ATV's more useless, I actually welcome this. I'd like to see more done to make every weapon, item, class, and vehicle be well balanced and approximately as useful as everything else. I'm not saying to buff an ATV to be as strong as a Lightning, just to make sure there is sufficient reason to consider pulling one instead another vehicle. Preferably more than just costing a minimal amount of resources and sometimes having a cloaking module.

[Figment]

It's essentially further incentive to encourage playing the game, particularly the sale of experience boosters. I just thought I would highlight that in case any SOE staff members are reading. ;)

Actually it wouldn't surprise me too much that one of the marketing arguments behind the move is that it guarantees more drivers and pilots, thus more chance of selling skins to individuals rather than groups.

If it was the compelling argument, very doubtful, but undoubtedly and understandably a "plus" from SOE's perspective.

Players who don't tend to like flying won't fly very often, while players who love using a MAX will tend to use them a lot.

All in all agree, but this part should read this:

"Players who don't tend to like flying won't fly unless they need fast transport, while players who are playing defense and hold will tend to use them en mass."

[Kalbuth]

I feel inclined to agree to a certain point.

I firmly believe that the maximum amount of certifications should be capped. I do not believe anyone should be able to certify in every single specialization if they invest the time into it. I believe it gives veterans too much of an advantage and ultimately homogenizes gameplay at the latter end of the game's lifetime. A year or two after release, you will be left with nothing but maxed out characters who have maximum certifications and no weaknesses in their certification tree. This discourages new players from entering the game, as it will take them an exorbitant amount of time to reach veteran status.

I believe that certifications should have a capped amount that one can achieve; it should be a number decided upon by the development team that allows an individual to "max" maybe four "play styles" and an arbitrary number of weapons and gadgets. For example's sake, let's say twenty-five.


[...]


I just wanted to say I really enjoyed reading that, and I basically agree with everything you've said. I think capping the maximum specialization to a specific percentage of the overall content is a great way to offer veterans an opportunity to feel empowered as long time players, without giving them an option for every single situation that can occur within the game. I believe you also open up the ability to potentially have a "re-certification" process, in which players sacrifice their current certifications in a particular tree, then re-earn the certifications to invest them somewhere else. It gives a potentially infinite progression system where players are always able to "re-cert" into their ideal play style, but they have to earn those certifications by playing.

It's essentially further incentive to encourage playing the game, particularly the sale of experience boosters. I just thought I would highlight that in case any SOE staff members are reading. ;)


If they cap certifications, capped player will stop upgrading their caracter, and this is a loss of income for them.
They can't do that.
They want every player trying to reach 100% of the content they put in and potentially buying for it (through direct buy or XP boosters)
If they permit access to only 40% max, they lose income.
Imho that's the key point why they cannot put a hard cap. So we have to deal with it.

Which does not answer the concerns you outlined.
Class system is supposed to deal with the Jack-of-all Trades scenario.
The question we'll have to ask during beta is : does the class system fullfill this role? If not, what to improve?

[Figment]

Or you could make multiple characters and have to pay twice or for other things? :p

[Kalbuth]

Or you could make multiple characters and have to pay twice or for other things? :p

You think they would risk a business model on people making multiple caracter to overcome a limitation they put?

[Figment]

You think they should risk losing the added income of extra characters considering it won't pay to have multiple characters on the same empire now?

Btw, what if you could cert in everything, but only select X infantry classes and Y vehicle classes (and if it had been separate from suits, W weapon classes) at the same time (ie like with recerting, change only one or two selected things per day of playing for instance)?

[FastAndFree]

If they cap certifications, capped player will stop upgrading their caracter, and this is a loss of income for them.
They can't do that.
They want every player trying to reach 100% of the content they put in and potentially buying for it (through direct buy or XP boosters)
If they permit access to only 40% max, they lose income.
Imho that's the key point why they cannot put a hard cap. So we have to deal with it.

They also sell sidegrades and zebra warpaint, maxed out players will still buy those. I wonder what's more popular, cosmetic items or boosters

I would prefer if opening up a tech tree would require an investment in cert points, this feels like another feature that makes vehicles throwavay ablative armor (resource cost notwithstanding)

Or alternatively, this points towards vehicles becoming valid playstíles by themselves as opposed to being infantry upgrades. It just occurred to me that no one made a fuss about people not having to spend cert points to play Heavy Assault or Infiltrator (or I just missed it)

[BillyBob]

Considering the speed with which people get cert points and that they'll never have to make a definite choice yes.

The problem with this argument is that players won't always be beginners and that this facilitates everyone getting the same super heavy setups.

Being used to something is no reason to not ever get used to something else that might be more balanced or have other perfectly valid arguments for different design decisions in a different context.

It's always funny how PS2 is refered to as "another game from PS1", but when it's related to other games than PS1, it should all be the same to not alienate players...

...Uh...

This whole argument of having to put specialisation in a class doesn't really hold up, because there's not going to be much difference between a specced and a non-specced player, remember? And over time, people get to have everything AND thus be good at everything...

Short term thinking was what got us over 150 CR5s in the past few days in one command channel, 75% or more of which are incapable of thinking because they reached CR5 too fast thanks to their zergfit and the increase in CEP gain (doubled) that became permanent at some point.

I would assume Station Cash or the Pro7 valuta yes.

And over time in an overspecialised unit = a generalist.

So you say it's fine that everyone can make a 'considerable difference' in every role over time (though we'll just have to see how considerable), JUST because it's a long way from now? Okay. Hypocritical, but okay.

You make a lot of assumptions which depend on facts you don't have.

The only things we know at this point, are mere indications based on what SOE devs have said in interviews etc. If anything, they've suggested that the certification point system will be deep, very extensive and allow for a lot of specialization.

They've also said that fully speccing into everything would take years for constant playing. That's not even taking into consideration the regular additions they have said are planned to the certsystem over time.

As for the "there will be no difference between a specced and a non-specced player" speculation (because that's basically all it is at this point), it would first of all completely depend on what you consider to be a valid difference or not.

Again, the devs have stated in interviews that the certification system will offer a lot of specialization and that it will allow you to tailor your gameplay in great detail to your personal preferences...but not in a way as to make the game imbalanced.

This suggests that you're right in that there would be no difference in terms of power or factors that could be considered to cause imbalance, but that it WILL allow for considerable differences in terms of personal gameplay/gamestyle options or when it comes to very specific tasks.

So, what we basically have here, are the comments of the devs explaining how things will work in the game they've made themselves, vs your own completely unfounded outsider speculations on how you think it will ultimately affect the game.

Forgive me if I believe that the devs have a slightly better grip on what's what when it comes to this. :p

Simple fact remains...not you, me nor anyone else but the devs know enough at this point to make anything but pure speculations about how this will work in detail, let alone any long-term effects it may have on the game.

Now, all I did was speculate as to why SOE would be taking the route they seemingly are with the cert system pertaining to vehicles in PS2. If anyone wants to attack/question that, fine...but when you do, please just keep in mind how little we all know about this in the first place.

Finally, I think the following point might also be worth mentioning when it comes to the cert system:

Even if everyone hypothetically would end up having all the certifications, how likely is it that everyone would be using them in the exact same way all the time?

Any tendencies towards all players using one specific setup for a certain task, may indicate it being overpowered...in which case it's a balance issue which is a completely different matter altogether.

In short, having the same set of equally valid options to select from...doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will pick the exact same one.

/BB

[Kezz]

Yeah, everyone gets to drive everything, because that drives specialisation, which drives team play.

Oh, wait.

[Masterr]

Maybe I'm just being a reactionary old fart, but this puts me slightly off my feed.

In all modern FPS's anyone can jump into a tank, a chopper, a jet, etc.... but that's for battles that rarely last for more than ten minutes, and then the map resets. In a persistent game like Planetside, I'd kinda like to see us stick with the old system. You get a few free certs to start off with, but you have to make a commitment of sorts. You have to choose whether to spawn or drive a given class of vehicle.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

And on a related note: I have looked, but cannot find, any news on whether or not PS2 will allow us to re-spec our certs. Can we or can't we? or is this another Wait Until Beta issue?

I like the new method. I was actually afraid that if i cert into infantry I would never drive anything. In other words....I would only be playing 1/3 of the game, I want to experiance everything the game has to offer.

[Figment]

You make a lot of assumptions which depend on facts you don't have.

Anything I say is based on Higby and other dev quotes. I don't assume anything.

The only things we know at this point, are mere indications based on what SOE devs have said in interviews etc. If anything, they've suggested that the certification point system will be deep, very extensive and allow for a lot of specialization.

Pay better attention: we know more. We even saw samples and we know their intentioned upgrade range difference and you falsely assume we need to research everything to setup the characters the way we want. FULL options takes years. Options in SIDEgrades.

They've also said that fully speccing into everything would take years for constant playing. That's not even taking into consideration the regular additions they have said are planned to the certsystem over time.

And how does that disagree with my mention of us now, 9 years into PS1 having severe issues with br40 and an overdose of cr5s osing everything?

You are a model example of a shortsighted thinker. By postponing the problem a year or more ahead, you pretend the situation won't occur or become commonplace.

And I hope you realise by then you can't take it away from the player anymore, because he would feel stripped of his or her rights.

As for the "there will be no difference between a specced and a non-specced player" speculation (because that's basically all it is at this point), it would first of all completely depend on what you consider to be a valid difference or not.

Which is why I asked you if you thought the 20% difference was enough to call it a specialization that would render them seemingly useless it they do use a role they have access too in a 82,33% of the optimal strength or anywhere in between with a few certs in it.

Again, the devs have stated in interviews that the certification system will offer a lot of specialization and that it will allow you to tailor your gameplay in great detail to your personal preferences...but not in a way as to make the game imbalanced.

Which again is my point: what specialization if you don't get any significant advantage?

You are inconsistent with yourself: one moment you speak of specialization so they can't really be seen as a threat through use of the basic, yet you then continue to say "but they won't be better either". Suiting playstyles is tweaking, not specialising.

So again, what have I said that you don't also say, just that you seem to not understand what you are concluding: make up your mind, is it an advantage that makes the basic dismissable, is it finetuning a class to your liking, or is it like I say, bit of both, but not a HUGE need to do to complete with said class in its basic form?

This suggests that you're right in that there would be no difference in terms of power or factors that could be considered to cause imbalance, but that it WILL allow for considerable differences in terms of personal gameplay/gamestyle options or when it comes to very specific tasks.

So, what we basically have here, are the comments of the devs explaining how things will work in the game they've made themselves, vs your own completely unfounded outsider speculations on how you think it will ultimately affect the game.

So by looking at what the devs said, you conclude I'm right and then call it unfounded? :confused: You have any idea what you are saying at this point?

Forgive me if I believe that the devs have a slightly better grip on what's what when it comes to this. :p

Simple fact remains...not you, me nor anyone else but the devs know enough at this point to make anything but pure speculations about how this will work in detail, let alone any long-term effects it may have on the game.

This is where you are wrong. Plain and simple: we both know eventually you have all the upgrades you want or need. You are the one keeping yourself ignorant of the facts while admitting the facts. That is one hard position to maintain, please enlighten how you can say it will take years, but its never going to be an issue? You presume far too much that tweaking is needed and that people need full specs acquired over years in order to spam all kinds of units and classes at any moment in time even if they are not optimal.

Now, all I did was speculate as to why SOE would be taking the route they seemingly are with the cert system pertaining to vehicles in PS2. If anyone wants to attack/question that, fine...but when you do, please just keep in mind how little we all know about this in the first place.

I love missing-link argumentation. Shame it is the same argument as "god of the gaps". We know enough to have this particular debate, but you will always insist we need to know more.

Finally, I think the following point might also be worth mentioning when it comes to the cert system:

Even if everyone hypothetically would end up having all the certifications, how likely is it that everyone would be using them in the exact same way all the time?

It is about context and the amount of options available to the player.

Having to make a choice and ensure an advantage in one context, but lose options in other contexts. For instance, not being an engineer at all is very different from now and then being an engineer. Big difference if you can or not wield something permanently or after a class change, which as far as I am aware does not require divine intervention.


Engagements in a game like Planetside and PS2 are about what a player can do with one character over time, not in one life. The typical period to check is one assault or defense till its conclusion, though more generally a play session. Players who don't see a problem tend to think in one duel and lack the insights for looking at the bigger longterm picture and the events leading up to and after that engagement.

Does or did he open terms? Change class to heal those you just killed? Did he get to use a big gun and then changed class again at the local term and got to hack faster too? Etc etc.

Any tendencies towards all players using one specific setup for a certain task, may indicate it being overpowered...in which case it's a balance issue which is a completely different matter altogether.

Is it always? And is it? You assume too much and dismiss too easily.

In short, having the same set of equally valid options to select from...doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will pick the exact same one.

/BB

No but then you can't argue your starting point and maintain your position that you need to specialize for years in anything if it is 'all equaly valid'.

[Daemonn]

I like the new method. I was actually afraid that if i cert into infantry I would never drive anything. In other words....I would only be playing 1/3 of the game, I want to experiance everything the game has to offer.

You would get to experience everything the game has to offer - just not all at the same time. It seems pretty simple - you will have close to 3/4 of everything available to you but that last 1/4 you can't means you need a squad mate or someone else to help you get that done - or play smarter and change objectives and go where you are most effective. Both I feel are better options when compared to becoming a super soldier over time.

If you cert heavily into infantry early on, you'll prolly end up running a lot. But that doesn't mean you can't be part of a squad that rolls armor or is doing inner base holds etc... or even just standing at vehicle pads and jumping in as a gunner for anything that spawns. That is usually a quick way in to combat - especially if you played PS1, you'd know what I mean. I don't want to argue semantics about hypothetical situations but really even infantry certing players will have plenty of opportunities to ride in style with team mates - many vehicles offer gunner and passenger seats.

Further more once you're a few certs into infantry, you could for pretty cheap I'm sure (if it would be equivalent to PS1 cert cost) get a lightning/flash cert and boom - you have a tank or ATV. It wouldn't take more than 1-2 battle ranks. That is probably one session worth of play.

I digress. Beta will tell all, I'm sure our feedback will be heard loud and clear once we get rolling. I return to patiently awaiting entry to "New" Auraxis...

[Figment]

Daemonn, if you cert heavily in infantry... You still get ALL basic vehicles. For free. That is what this thread is about. You getting too much choice as a player.

Why would you run more? You would just fight in infantry in a manner closer to your prefered playstyle.

[Daemonn]

I just wanted to say I really enjoyed reading that, and I basically agree with everything you've said. I think capping the maximum specialization to a specific percentage of the overall content is a great way to offer veterans an opportunity to feel empowered as long time players, without giving them an option for every single situation that can occur within the game. I believe you also open up the ability to potentially have a "re-certification" process, in which players sacrifice their current certifications in a particular tree, then re-earn the certifications to invest them somewhere else. It gives a potentially infinite progression system where players are always able to "re-cert" into their ideal play style, but they have to earn those certifications by playing.

It's essentially further incentive to encourage playing the game, particularly the sale of experience boosters. I just thought I would highlight that in case any SOE staff members are reading. ;)

Yea, dead on man. See the issue might be if SOE Execs see "every player accessing everything means overall pool for more potential store customers to purchase skins, decals, sidegrades for all the great and fun things they always have access to..." More money up front/short term for SOE and then the player base will decline until it levels off, as will store purchases. But now that left overbase will have access to new content as it comes out, no restrictions to access it immediately - steady cash stream because its predictable economics....

Release everything, people will buy things for currently available vehicles, weapons etc, they will stale over time becoming old news, new vehicle or weapon enters the game - people will need to skin/add things to them to match outfits, tastes, combat or trends which is a guaranteed revenue stream. If people had to earn certs or recert to use the newly released items - people may decide they aren't worth it so whatever, no need. Or others will say they dont like how it works or it gets bad player reviews so less people will cert meaning less new skins/store items on that new item. That revenue stream becomes more variable and diminished.

Again..... beta. Truths will be had.

Daemonn, if you cert heavily in infantry... You still get ALL basic vehicles. For free. That is what this thread is about. You getting too much choice as a player.

Why would you run more? You would just fight in infantry in a manner closer to your prefered playstyle.

Actually Notturno and I were talking about our opinion on how the cert system should be in our eyes. And my references were mostly to PS1's original system. Basically us saying keep it that way.

If you read my post all the way or more thoroughly, you would certainly see I am talking about a solution to your problem... I was directly addressing the "too much choice" issue.

And actually, you would hoof it more if you were in base fights where the enemy was not yet in the courtyard or interior... you'd have to run to the walls and all around the base while fighting instead of pulling air or armor. And if it was a large fight between two base areas, assaulting with vehicles in between and slowly moving up front lines, you'd certainly be running more if you weren't constantly a passenger/gunner... Did you play PS1?

[Rivenshield]

I think capping the maximum specialization to a specific percentage of the overall content is a great way to offer veterans an opportunity to feel empowered as long time players, without giving them an option for every single situation that can occur within the game. I believe you also open up the ability to potentially have a "re-certification" process, in which players sacrifice their current certifications in a particular tree, then re-earn the certifications to invest them somewhere else. It gives a potentially infinite progression system where players are always able to "re-cert" into their ideal play style, but they have to earn those certifications by playing.

Me three. There are fanbois out there who will blow massive gobs of dough -- at least as much as they spend on renting game modules for their Wii -- to be the best at everything faster than everybody else. It won't be years until they max out; it will be a few MONTHS. And there will be plenty of them.

There needs to be a hard cap, and there needs to be some sort of mechanism whereby they can surrender certs and pick up others.

[Figment]

@Daemonn: was confused with what you were talking about.

Did I play Ps1? Played since 2004. Perma-sub since 2005 with about 12 months missing.

[BillyBob]

*snip*


Sorry, don't have time for internet crusaders who are more or less just arguing for arguments sake.

I've stated time and time again that these were only my speculations as to why I think SOE is going the way they seemingly are with the certifications system. Furthermore, all I've said is based on official statements as well, making my guesses (because that's all they are at this point) just as valid as yours.

However, you can't seem to comprehend this simple fact and instead seem hellbent on "proving" me "wrong", even though there's nothing to prove. :p

Now, if you'll excuse me, I actually do have more important things to do than to get into pseudo-arguments, kindergarten semantics and silly prestige contests with someone who can't even realize the basic difference between well-founded established facts and pure personal speculation.

Due to this, I've used this forums ignore function on you. Please feel free to do the same on me...I would take it as a compliment. ;)

/BB

[Figment]

Wow. Ignoring based on having a difference of opinion and pointing out hypocrisy within his speculation without even bothering to put up a defense. Then why post his own opinion if it is not to be critiqued?

Going "NANANANANANANAANA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" is so unlike-kindergarten though... Oh well, that's the level of argument people: get countered, different scenario "IGNORE!".

I suppose it's childish to take the time to take someone's speculation or opinion serious enough to post a reply though!

Brilliant. Mature. Ignoring all people with an opposite opinion in a discussion is the perfect way to retain pink goggles and pretend your argument is never under need of scrutiny. But hey, he'll never read this till this gets quoted. :)

[stalkish]

Wow. Ignoring based on having a difference of opinion and pointing out hypocrisy within his speculation without even bothering to put up a defense. Then why post his own opinion if it is not to be critiqued?

Going "NANANANANANANAANA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" is so unlike-kindergarten though... Oh well, that's the level of argument people: get countered, different scenario "IGNORE!".

I suppose it's childish to take the time to take someone's speculation or opinion serious enough to post a reply though!

Brilliant. Mature. Ignoring all people with an opposite opinion in a discussion is the perfect way to retain pink goggles and pretend your argument is never under need of scrutiny. But hey, he'll never read this till this gets quoted. :)

:rofl:

[BillyBob]

Me three. There are fanbois out there who will blow massive gobs of dough -- at least as much as they spend on renting game modules for their Wii -- to be the best at everything faster than everybody else. It won't be years until they max out; it will be a few MONTHS. And there will be plenty of them.

There needs to be a hard cap, and there needs to be some sort of mechanism whereby they can surrender certs and pick up others.

For all we know, there could already be some sort of mechanism like that in the game...or at least something that has a somewhat similar effect on player/item progression.

I seem to remember some devs talking about how certain things will not be accessible by purchase, but that you'd only be able to earn those points the "old fashioned way" so to speak.

At this time, we don't know the exact stage at which all specific items can be unlocked, or what their individual cost in certpoints is...let alone which ones are open to shortcuts via purchase.

We also don't know the long-term strategy as far as new lock-ups and certpoints are concerned. What we've seen so far, suggests that there are tons of them...but who know how many of those options will be available from day one of launch and how many will be added later...and at what pace?

Needless to say, depending on how all these factors and parameters are distributed within the system and the overall timeframe in terms of its implementation, could also be crucial to its effects on overall player progression...and also have this effect vary greatly depending on how you tweak it.

We simply know too little at this time to draw any conclusions, let alone pass any reasonably sound judgment on how it will eventually pan out in game.

As someone else pointed out, we'll just have to wait until beta.

/BB

[Xyntech]

All in all agree, but this part should read this:

"Players who don't tend to like flying won't fly unless they need fast transport, while players who are playing defense and hold will tend to use them en mass."

Well the fast transport issue is why I tend to be concerned about ATV's being useless. Mostly because ATV's are so fragile. At least with Galaxies and especially Sunderers, you will have a lot more armor than in aircav.

As for MAXes, I really don't see it being a huge issue. Players who hate using them will still hate using them even in defensive situations, and players who are okay with using them will use them situationally. If the enemy has a ton of MAXes, it will make it that much easier for you to counter them with anti-MAX weapons. I don't see them getting overused, or making another class be underused in the same way I'm worried about with ATV's and aircav. If MAXes do end up too useful and overused, that's something that a few tweaks could solve as well.

Personally, I'm fine with BR40 except for the fact that the first Planetside wasn't well balanced for it. Things like Adv Medic, Adv hacking and Combat Engineering used to be balanced out by the fact that if you took all of those certs at BR20, you wouldn't have a lot of room left to cert in too much else. With BR40, you can cert in lots of support certs while still having enough room to diversify your character in a lot of other ways.

There are two ways to fix the BR40 problem in PS2. You either decide to never ever raise the level cap (or it's equivalent), or you embrace the problems head on and balance the game to incorporate them into a balanced structure. PS2 opts for the latter.

It's the same as with Orbital Strikes. In the first game, it was assumed early on that they would be a rare thing, but eventually pretty much everyone has them. There is no downside now, since if you waste yours now, someone else will probably have one for the next enemy AMS that gets spotted. PS2 seems to be looking at balancing them against the possibility that everyone will have them eventually, which is good.

So in Planetside 2, we'll all be able to access the basic (basic still being effective) versions of all classes and vehicles right from the start, and we'll potentially all have access to every side/upgraded version of them down the road. The difference is that the entire game is being designed around this dynamic, instead of using limited progress as a balancing factor. In PS2, the equivalent of a BR20 will be no more able to use every support ability at once than the equivalent of a BR40 will be able to, and orbital strikes will be a costly decision no matter if you are a career commander or someone who just certed up the command tree to get the OS option.

Certainly the first Planetside was balanced around what an individual could do over a period of time instead of each life, but this isn't Planetside. Planetside 2 is very similar in a lot of ways, and very different in others, and I don't think that this particular change is a bad one.

Ideally, specialization will provide a nice carrot on a stick to unlocking more customization options over time, while never giving much of a straight upgrade to ones overall ability to help out on the battlefield. In this sense, I think PS2 will be better than PS1, since a BR5 was significantly less useful than a BR20 was. Over the course of several lives, any player of any level will be able to fill every major role, but I can't think of one game off the top of my head where this was a bad thing. It's not like we'll be able to switch roles every time we are revived in the middle of combat. This is the equivalent of logging out and logging back in with an alt in any other MMO, except streamlined and sped up to match with PS2's faster pacing. I think it just fits better with Planetside 2's FPS heritage in this case, instead of going with it's slower RPG heritage like the first game did in this regard.

I just think the freedom for anyone to freely switch between every class and vehicle will do more good than harm. I'd rather there be a reason to take LA over a MAX, or an ATV over aircav, based purely on the classes and vehicles own merits.

[Kezz]

I seem to remember some devs talking about how certain things will not be accessible by purchase, but that you'd only be able to earn those points the "old fashioned way" so to speak.
You're right, I think. The intention does seem to be that certs, per se will not be for sale in the cash shop. I believe the "gobs of cash" will only be useful to acquire Certs in that they will allow you to permanently have XP boosters running. So, there's the "old fashioned way", and the "monied individual's" way of earning points. But if it's supposed to take 2 years to get 90% of the certs, that's just 1 year for someone permanently under the effects of a doubler. If bigger XP boosters are available, proportionately less.

Edit: and as has been said, there's a difference between "all the certs" and "all the certs you could ever actually want to use". /edit

Perhaps SOE are intending Certpoint gain to be so slow that nearly everyone will be buying a booster. Kindof a voluntary subscription.

[Flaropri]

Brilliant. Mature. Ignoring all people with an opposite opinion in a discussion is the perfect way to retain pink goggles and pretend your argument is never under need of scrutiny.

If it works for Politicians and media pundits...

[Ipimpnoobs]

Maybe I'm just being a reactionary old fart, but this puts me slightly off my feed.

In all modern FPS's anyone can jump into a tank, a chopper, a jet, etc.... but that's for battles that rarely last for more than ten minutes, and then the map resets. In a persistent game like Planetside, I'd kinda like to see us stick with the old system. You get a few free certs to start off with, but you have to make a commitment of sorts. You have to choose whether to spawn or drive a given class of vehicle.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

And on a related note: I have looked, but cannot find, any news on whether or not PS2 will allow us to re-spec our certs. Can we or can't we? or is this another Wait Until Beta issue?


First off, the certification system is almost exact to eve online. There will always be an accessibility cert which should take you about 10mins of game play to gain. But, in order for one account to unlock all specializations to their maximum potential, it will take a player roughly 7 years of playing. An example is as follows
Gun A damage output Cert
level 1 Dmg increase 1% Cost 1 cert point
lvl 2, 5% Cost 3 cert points
lvl 3, 8% Cost 5 cert points
lvl 4, 10% Cost 10 cert points
lvl 5, 15% Cost 20 cert points (just this cert lvl will take 3 hours and 33mins to get)

1 cert point is averaged at roughly ~10mins of direct game play (source Total Biscuit video). Currently offline cert point accumulation not known. (The above data is fictitious to show how the cert points work.)

As you can see from the above information to be effective, you will need to have multiple accounts with different specializations for the same faction. For instance...(account = acct) acct 1: Eng, Medic, All main attack vehicle Pilot; acct 2: Leadership, Light assault, heavy infantry; acct 3: max and infiltrator. (there may be cross certifications so keep in mind this is an example). I'm no math expert but this will cut at least 30% off of that 7 year duration to max cap a char.

This means you will not see everyone in a tank, even though they have the ability to get one, if the resource pool meets that quota. They can be easily be countered. And, since they did not specialize in the vehicle, a competent smaller fully certified reactionary force will make quick work of them. See the e3 video where Higby is fighting a vanu armor column that has no air support in a reaver. There is so much more, I can tell you but you'll really have to see it for yourself.

No, you will not be able to respec. This is the game equalizer. Choices you make will have a long lasting effect. If you play more, then you can quickly fix any mistake, for instance, perhaps you chose a weapon that wasn't quite what you expected. Choose your main wisely or be flexible with your account name by creating more the then one by doing the following: acctusername1, acctusername2 and acctusername3 with email address to follow suit. I would even go as afar as to say to do the same thing with your passwords.

Trust me when I say, you will have multiple accounts otherwise you'll be very sad when 7 years rolls around and one of your main chars finally caps and planet-side 3 comes out only to do it all again.

My 2 cents is this will make PS2 population count swell to a point that this game will easily go platinum within a matter of months after release.

In conclusion, I absolutely do not feel the same way as you. You will understand only when you see the amount of time it takes to cap a skill, then you'll be like OHHHH I get it. Add that with being at war with 1332 players trying to kill you and you will get Holy shhhzam I need a PS2 T Ray VANU autographed diaper..this game is gonna be epic. Oh and If your thinking about lone wolfing it....your going to be very sad my friend...very sad.

[Redshift]

The only issue i've got with it so far is i feel the prowlers main guns should be passenger only, otherwise there's no distinction between the MBT and the lightning

[VaderShake]

Some great points shared here....all I have to say is if your talking about a potential problem 3+ years from now...well...that's not to shabby.

[Pvt Badger]

For all we know, there could already be some sort of mechanism like that in the game...or at least something that has a somewhat similar effect on player/item progression.

I seem to remember some devs talking about how certain things will not be accessible by purchase, but that you'd only be able to earn those points the "old fashioned way" so to speak.

At this time, we don't know the exact stage at which all specific items can be unlocked, or what their individual cost in certpoints is...let alone which ones are open to shortcuts via purchase.

We also don't know the long-term strategy as far as new lock-ups and certpoints are concerned. What we've seen so far, suggests that there are tons of them...but who know how many of those options will be available from day one of launch and how many will be added later...and at what pace?

Needless to say, depending on how all these factors and parameters are distributed within the system and the overall timeframe in terms of its implementation, could also be crucial to its effects on overall player progression...and also have this effect vary greatly depending on how you tweak it.

We simply know too little at this time to draw any conclusions, let alone pass any reasonably sound judgment on how it will eventually pan out in game.

As someone else pointed out, we'll just have to wait until beta.

/BB

Without breaking NDA, I can tell you that I felt odd about some Cert Costs.

Also guys, The current Cert System handles well, imho. Won't go too far but Vehicles and Certs are well balanced. As mentioned in the streams at E3 you gain Certs without even playing. Now you might immediately jump on the "I hate this" wagon but fear not. Things are going great in the beta and we're waiting for you guys to join the fun. With the current number of players battles are fierce and with more... Everything will be more epic. Just find what seems to work for you and stick to that. I know I have. I just have to learn to aim on the move.

The only issue i've got with it so far is i feel the prowlers main guns should be passenger only, otherwise there's no distinction between the MBT and the lightning

Wait until you're under fire. There's a difference.

[Redshift]

Wait until you're under fire. There's a difference.

Nah there really isn't, there's no point in the lightning atm because the MBT is essentially the same but slightly bigger.

[andehh]

And slower, and more powerful and better protected (about to get a boost armour wise as well), and with the additional anti personnel machine gun, and more accurate.... the list goes on.

There is room in game for them both.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Pvt Badger]

And slower, and more powerful and better protected (about to get a boost armour wise as well), and with the additional anti personnel machine gun, and more accurate.... the list goes on.

There is room in game for them both.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

More accurate? I dunno... I've shot infantry from a pretty decent distance. Plus a lightning is smaller making long range combat more difficult for an MBT.

[Redshift]

And slower, and more powerful and better protected (about to get a boost armour wise as well), and with the additional anti personnel machine gun, and more accurate.... the list goes on.

There is room in game for them both.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Exactly, the mbts are better in every way except a little speed, which means the lightning is essentially pointless, we're missing different vehicles like the buggies and still have a redundant tank, making the mbt a driver/gunner vehicle gives it back its distinct role.

[Pvt Badger]

Exactly, the mbts are better in every way except a little speed, which means the lightning is essentially pointless, we're missing different vehicles like the buggies and still have a redundant tank, making the mbt a driver/gunner vehicle gives it back its distinct role.

Lightnings are fast and work best as a support to other tanks in flanking. It has already been said that armor is weakest in the back of a tank. Also consider a spearhead of tanks to absorb the brunt of an attack while the MBT's hit in the second wave. In the weakened state, the defenders will have fewer rounds and less armor meaning the MBT's can crush the defenders.

[Rago]

Of Course i want to drive and Fly everything , Thats the fun isnt it.
The Resources System is a Great Idea.I dont see any ned of a Change, with this.

[dustin]

ya sumthing not cool with leting every 1 hav every thing & yes i want to respek all redy u shod haf to put at lest 1 point into sumthing b4 u can uss it cuss nawe u got pepl ussing all the best stuff licke why even uss a ATV if u can get a tank willy nilly its rilly missing that thing wen pepl want to no wut u can do cus every 1 can just do everything and u no every 1 in a tank or jet is a engy i miss PS1 wen u can say im a engy medic with a AMS and pepl no u r speked for suport or a max stether haker with a ATV it mackes it u thing and no 1 can bug u to do stuff u dont want to do i dont licke the way thay lock u into a class and every 1 elss in that class is the same as u i dont mined that u have classes but dont block me frum being a medic engy if i want at the same time u class shod only lock u wep and armor and class abilty but not tool&items licke i wood give up my engys ACE truit for a med gun eney day let pepl custom thaer class if thay but points into the stuff thay licke if i but points into medic stuff i shod get to uss it on eney class sept maybe maxes ill give up my hand gun for a med tool on my engy i licke saying i can fix or heal eneything just licke in reallife no1 is just 1 thing we all got meny skills no1 is sheff & thats all thay can do i no real life trooper that r haker and engy at the same time its silly to think u can do 1 thing and that it

ya sumthing not cool with leting every 1 hav every thing & yes i want to respek all redy u shod haf to put at lest 1 point into sumthing b4 u can uss it cuss nawe u got pepl ussing all the best stuff licke why even uss a ATV if u can get a tank willy nilly its rilly missing that thing wen pepl want to no wut u can do cus every 1 can just do everything and u no every 1 in a tank or jet is a engy i miss PS1 wen u can say im a engy medic with a AMS and pepl no u r speked for suport or a max stether haker with a ATV it mackes it u thing and no 1 can bug u to do stuff u dont want to do i dont licke the way thay lock u into a class and every 1 elss in that class is the same as u i dont mined that u have classes but dont block me frum being a medic engy if i want at the same time u class shod only lock u wep and armor and class abilty but not tool&items licke i wood give up my engys ACE truit for a med gun eney day let pepl custom thaer class if thay but points into the stuff thay licke if i but points into medic stuff i shod get to uss it on eney class sept maybe maxes ill give up my hand gun for a med tool on my engy i licke saying i can fix or heal eneything just licke in reallife no1 is just 1 thing we all got meny skills no1 is sheff & thats all thay can do i no real life trooper that r haker and engy at the same time its silly to think u can do 1 thing and that it

[Pvt Badger]

ya sumthing not cool with leting every 1 hav every thing & yes i want to respek all redy u shod haf to put at lest 1 point into sumthing b4 u can uss it cuss nawe u got pepl ussing all the best stuff licke why even uss a ATV if u can get a tank willy nilly its rilly missing that thing wen pepl want to no wut u can do cus every 1 can just do everything and u no every 1 in a tank or jet is a engy i miss PS1 wen u can say im a engy medic with a AMS and pepl no u r speked for suport or a max stether haker with a ATV it mackes it u thing and no 1 can bug u to do stuff u dont want to do i dont licke the way thay lock u into a class and every 1 elss in that class is the same as u i dont mined that u have classes but dont block me frum being a medic engy if i want at the same time u class shod only lock u wep and armor and class abilty but not tool&items licke i wood give up my engys ACE truit for a med gun eney day let pepl custom thaer class if thay but points into the stuff thay licke if i but points into medic stuff i shod get to uss it on eney class sept maybe maxes ill give up my hand gun for a med tool on my engy i licke saying i can fix or heal eneything just licke in reallife no1 is just 1 thing we all got meny skills no1 is sheff & thats all thay can do i no real life trooper that r haker and engy at the same time its silly to think u can do 1 thing and that it

ya sumthing not cool with leting every 1 hav every thing & yes i want to respek all redy u shod haf to put at lest 1 point into sumthing b4 u can uss it cuss nawe u got pepl ussing all the best stuff licke why even uss a ATV if u can get a tank willy nilly its rilly missing that thing wen pepl want to no wut u can do cus every 1 can just do everything and u no every 1 in a tank or jet is a engy i miss PS1 wen u can say im a engy medic with a AMS and pepl no u r speked for suport or a max stether haker with a ATV it mackes it u thing and no 1 can bug u to do stuff u dont want to do i dont licke the way thay lock u into a class and every 1 elss in that class is the same as u i dont mined that u have classes but dont block me frum being a medic engy if i want at the same time u class shod only lock u wep and armor and class abilty but not tool&items licke i wood give up my engys ACE truit for a med gun eney day let pepl custom thaer class if thay but points into the stuff thay licke if i but points into medic stuff i shod get to uss it on eney class sept maybe maxes ill give up my hand gun for a med tool on my engy i licke saying i can fix or heal eneything just licke in reallife no1 is just 1 thing we all got meny skills no1 is sheff & thats all thay can do i no real life trooper that r haker and engy at the same time its silly to think u can do 1 thing and that it

Can I get a translator and a dictionary?

[Gugabalog]

ya sumthing not cool with leting every 1 hav every thing & yes i want to respek all redy u shod haf to put at lest 1 point into sumthing b4 u can uss it cuss nawe u got pepl ussing all the best stuff licke why even uss a ATV if u can get a tank willy nilly its rilly missing that thing wen pepl want to no wut u can do cus every 1 can just do everything and u no every 1 in a tank or jet is a engy i miss PS1 wen u can say im a engy medic with a AMS and pepl no u r speked for suport or a max stether haker with a ATV it mackes it u thing and no 1 can bug u to do stuff u dont want to do i dont licke the way thay lock u into a class and every 1 elss in that class is the same as u i dont mined that u have classes but dont block me frum being a medic engy if i want at the same time u class shod only lock u wep and armor and class abilty but not tool&items licke i wood give up my engys ACE truit for a med gun eney day let pepl custom thaer class if thay but points into the stuff thay licke if i but points into medic stuff i shod get to uss it on eney class sept maybe maxes ill give up my hand gun for a med tool on my engy i licke saying i can fix or heal eneything just licke in reallife no1 is just 1 thing we all got meny skills no1 is sheff & thats all thay can do i no real life trooper that r haker and engy at the same time its silly to think u can do 1 thing and that it

ya sumthing not cool with leting every 1 hav every thing & yes i want to respek all redy u shod haf to put at lest 1 point into sumthing b4 u can uss it cuss nawe u got pepl ussing all the best stuff licke why even uss a ATV if u can get a tank willy nilly its rilly missing that thing wen pepl want to no wut u can do cus every 1 can just do everything and u no every 1 in a tank or jet is a engy i miss PS1 wen u can say im a engy medic with a AMS and pepl no u r speked for suport or a max stether haker with a ATV it mackes it u thing and no 1 can bug u to do stuff u dont want to do i dont licke the way thay lock u into a class and every 1 elss in that class is the same as u i dont mined that u have classes but dont block me frum being a medic engy if i want at the same time u class shod only lock u wep and armor and class abilty but not tool&items licke i wood give up my engys ACE truit for a med gun eney day let pepl custom thaer class if thay but points into the stuff thay licke if i but points into medic stuff i shod get to uss it on eney class sept maybe maxes ill give up my hand gun for a med tool on my engy i licke saying i can fix or heal eneything just licke in reallife no1 is just 1 thing we all got meny skills no1 is sheff & thats all thay can do i no real life trooper that r haker and engy at the same time its silly to think u can do 1 thing and that it

Yeah, we don't tolerate this on non-official forums.

[vVRedOctoberVv]

I didn't like it much when I first heard of it, but having seen it in practice, it's really not that big a deal.

Anybody CAN do/be anything (more or less), but you rarely see people going out of their comfort zones. Tankers are almost always tankers, air jockeys always fly, MAX users are always MAX users, etc. I almost exclusively play as Light Assault now, with occasional forays into tanks or heavy infantry.

Anybody can pull a MAX, for example, but most the time, even when being one might be beneficial, people tend to stick to what they like or feel they're best with.

There are always exceptions, of course, but I don't see as it matters much. As others have brought out, you gain a lot of functionality by certing additionally into something, so people who like/want one thing, will tend to concentrate on it at a detriment to some of the other things.

@Dustin

TCDR (Too Confusing, Didn't Read)

[Redshift]

Also consider a spearhead of tanks to absorb the brunt of an attack while the MBT's hit in the second wave. In the weakened state, the defenders will have fewer rounds and less armor meaning the MBT's can crush the defenders.

Yea but then you'd just use MBT's for the spear head too... and you'd do more damage and take less casualties.

They essentailly fulfill the same roll atm. It's no where as distinct as it was in PS1, where you had a 1 man weaker tank or a two man tank that was stronger but required teamwork.

[Pvt Badger]

Yea but then you'd just use MBT's for the spear head too... and you'd do more damage and take less casualties.

They essentailly fulfill the same roll atm. It's no where as distinct as it was in PS1, where you had a 1 man weaker tank or a two man tank that was stronger but required teamwork.

Okay... look. Lightnings require 1 person to operate. In a full platoon of tanks, you can have 48 Lightnings fitted for specific roles or about 24 MBT's. The loss of one Lightning is half the pain of lossing a MBT. It's about massed numbers. More targets you have to face the worse off you are when defending. I play Tyranid in Warhammer 40K. I understand swarm tactics. Plus the Lightning is faster to spawn in than a MBT. Less armor is peanuts to blasting down a mass of infantry or tanks. And if you are good enough the Lightning can out-perform a MBT any day. It turns faster and shoots faster.

The 24 MBT's will have around 6 tanks dedicated to different roles than 12 Lightnings dedicated to the same roles. Again... NUMBERS!

[Rago]

ya sumthing not cool with leting every 1 hav every thing & yes i want to respek all redy u shod haf to put at lest 1 point into sumthing b4 u can uss it cuss nawe u got pepl ussing all the best stuff licke why even uss a ATV if u can get a tank willy nilly its rilly missing that thing wen pepl want to no wut u can do cus every 1 can just do everything and u no every 1 in a tank or jet is a engy i miss PS1 wen u can say im a engy medic with a AMS and pepl no u r speked for suport or a max stether haker with a ATV it mackes it u thing and no 1 can bug u to do stuff u dont want to do i dont licke the way thay lock u into a class and every 1 elss in that class is the same as u i dont mined that u have classes but dont block me frum being a medic engy if i want at the same time u class shod only lock u wep and armor and class abilty but not tool&items licke i wood give up my engys ACE truit for a med gun eney day let pepl custom thaer class if thay but points into the stuff thay licke if i but points into medic stuff i shod get to uss it on eney class sept maybe maxes ill give up my hand gun for a med tool on my engy i licke saying i can fix or heal eneything just licke in reallife no1 is just 1 thing we all got meny skills no1 is sheff & thats all thay can do i no real life trooper that r haker and engy at the same time its silly to think u can do 1 thing and that it

ya sumthing not cool with leting every 1 hav every thing & yes i want to respek all redy u shod haf to put at lest 1 point into sumthing b4 u can uss it cuss nawe u got pepl ussing all the best stuff licke why even uss a ATV if u can get a tank willy nilly its rilly missing that thing wen pepl want to no wut u can do cus every 1 can just do everything and u no every 1 in a tank or jet is a engy i miss PS1 wen u can say im a engy medic with a AMS and pepl no u r speked for suport or a max stether haker with a ATV it mackes it u thing and no 1 can bug u to do stuff u dont want to do i dont licke the way thay lock u into a class and every 1 elss in that class is the same as u i dont mined that u have classes but dont block me frum being a medic engy if i want at the same time u class shod only lock u wep and armor and class abilty but not tool&items licke i wood give up my engys ACE truit for a med gun eney day let pepl custom thaer class if thay but points into the stuff thay licke if i but points into medic stuff i shod get to uss it on eney class sept maybe maxes ill give up my hand gun for a med tool on my engy i licke saying i can fix or heal eneything just licke in reallife no1 is just 1 thing we all got meny skills no1 is sheff & thats all thay can do i no real life trooper that r haker and engy at the same time its silly to think u can do 1 thing and that it

haaf of the muff is up in the puff, wich is teh Stuff,
teh wuff from the suff :p:p:p:cool::D HAHAHA

You dont expect me to read that right ? Man at least you gave me a
Laugh from the buff.

[Redshift]

Okay... look. Lightnings require 1 person to operate. In a full platoon of tanks, you can have 48 Lightnings fitted for specific roles or about 24 MBT's. The loss of one Lightning is half the pain of lossing a MBT. It's about massed numbers. More targets you have to face the worse off you are when defending. I play Tyranid in Warhammer 40K. I understand swarm tactics. Plus the Lightning is faster to spawn in than a MBT. Less armor is peanuts to blasting down a mass of infantry or tanks. And if you are good enough the Lightning can out-perform a MBT any day. It turns faster and shoots faster.

The 24 MBT's will have around 6 tanks dedicated to different roles than 12 Lightnings dedicated to the same roles. Again... NUMBERS!

Or.... you could have 48 prowlers without the shitty second gunner....... point is a 1 man prowler in this game is better than a lightning, in PS1 a 1 man prowler is useless.

[Pvt Badger]

Or.... you could have 48 prowlers without the shitty second gunner....... point is a 1 man prowler in this game is better than a lightning, in PS1 a 1 man prowler is useless.

Are we also not considering size in the equation? A prowler on flat ground is like hitting a building that can shoot back. The lightning is faster, cheaper, smaller, and more agile. If I were in a bomber, I'd target MBT's due to the sheer size and then go after the Lightnings. Now I'm not ignoring the benefit of MBT's I just can't see why you would prefer to have a sledgehammer when a crowbar would work just fine to open a box.

[Gugabalog]

Mercenary Mantra: "There is no such thing as overkill."

[Redshift]

Now I'm not ignoring the benefit of MBT's I just can't see why you would prefer to have a sledgehammer when a crowbar would work just fine to open a box.

Sledgehammers can open several boxes at once.....

[Pvt Badger]

Sledgehammers can open several boxes at once.....

But in some cases rapid response is better than a battalion of lumbering tanks.
Let's say that your side has just captured quite a bit of territory with little resistance. Looking for more to shoot at, the platoon sets its sights elsewhere when suddenly the NC or VS have just plunged three kilometers into TR territory. It'll take a while to get into the fight in a MBT. A couple of Lightnings can easily get there before the MBT's can turn around and join in.

[Redshift]

If you want rapid response you fly.

I'm sorry but i just don't think the odd occassion where arriving a few seconds earlier is enough to justify an entire vehicle, if we can't have AMS's or ESbuggies or skyguards because there's no role for them i fail to see how the lightning can justify it's place, not while the MBT is essentially the same.

[Pvt Badger]

If you want rapid response you fly.

I'm sorry but i just don't think the odd occassion where arriving a few seconds earlier is enough to justify an entire vehicle, if we can't have AMS's or ESbuggies or skyguards because there's no role for them i fail to see how the lightning can justify it's place, not while the MBT is essentially the same.

Problem with that... AA is now hell for aircraft with that last patch. If you're trying to respond to an area via air and one guy with a Skyguard or AA MAX sees you, you could very well be fucked. The same guy sees you while you're in a Lightning and you can just drive on by. Sure, he's going to shoot at you but it's AA not AP. And if you're so keen on AMS's then go play PS1. Stop trolling the PSU PS2 forums.

[Redshift]

no need to call troll just because your arguements suck.

Your last argument about an AA MAX is shit also, i could make the point that if a heavy sees your lightning you're toast... it means nothing and doesn't change the fact the lightning is pointless..

[Pvt Badger]

no need to call troll just because your arguements suck.

Your last argument about an AA MAX is shit also, i could make the point that if a heavy sees your lightning you're toast... it means nothing and doesn't change the fact the lightning is pointless..

So if you're out of appropriate resources and have a cooldown active means the Lightning is useless when you can't spawn a MBT? I'm almost exclusively Lightning. I stay alive by keeping my speed up. An MBT can take a few more hits than a Lightning.

Also I noticed you didn't even support your claims. Lightnings are smaller and can Cert to be quieter when firing. To my knowledge MBT's can't. And talking about useless why is it that the TR love speed but are fascinated to sticking to the floor? I'm talking about Siege Mode for a Prowler and PS1 MAX's.

[Redshift]

So if you're out of appropriate resources and have a cooldown active means the Lightning is useless when you can't spawn a MBT?
That's not lightning exclusive that's any vehicle, we're talking about the MBT and lighting being too similar, the different resource is not related to the vehicle design itself.

Lightnings are smaller and can Cert to be quieter when firing. To my knowledge MBT's can't.

Everyone notices a tank firing .....unless you're blind.

But please remember i'm not arguing that we should remove the lightning (the more vehicle varieties the better imo) I'm arguing that the MBT currently drives like a big lightning and instead should require a second person to use the main gun.

[Pvt Badger]

The main gun of the MBT's are suited for Anti-armor or Anti-Infantry duties. The (Default) secondary gun, in my opinion, lacks the punch of a true AA weapon. A group of Skyguard can hold an area while the Aircraft take off. Using an MBT for the same role lets your Galaxy-mounted troops die before they can get out of the warzone in an extraction scenario. Yes, I'm aware of the AA gun you can fit to a MBT. I'm saying that it's more efficent to have Skyguards watching the skies instead of one-manned MBT's with AA guns. If you have two people in AA equipped MBT's and a tank dies then you have the problem of losing both AA and Anti-tank. AT Lightnings can patrol an area looking for Tanks or Heavy Assault while the Skyguards pound the air.

There's also the fact that the MBT's play off of Faction tactics. The Prowler is the fastest of the three while the Vanguard is slow and painful. So the MBT's being upgraded Lightnings is false.

[Redshift]

We're never going to agree so i think we'd better just let it die :)

[Sunrock]

Ok first of all way do you call Vanguards a Medium Battle Tank? I did not know there was a larger tanks..

But putting up a Lightning with a skyguard on it against any other tank is doomed to fail. Only way a Skyguard-Lightining can kill a Vanguard for an example is if the Vanguard ignores the threat.

Also the only way a skygaurd-lighting can shoot down anything is if the pilot ignores it. 1 Vs 1 Skygaurd equipped lightnings have no chance against Reavers or Shythese with rockets at least.

[Pvt Badger]

Why would ANYONE engage a MBT with a Skyguard? I'm talking about squad tactics! Having a group of Skyguard in an area helps to protect from air threats while AT's hunt tanks. I've been killed by a Skyguard before in my Scythe. I was quite embarrassed actually since I was looking above me to find the threat and not suspecting a ground target.