Sunderer as transport vehicle?

[Azren]

Hey

OK, so as we all know, you will not need to put any certs into aquireing all vehicles in game. This of course means that everyone can pull aircav or other, cheap type of transporation like the Flash.

With this given, why would the sunderer ever be used as a transport. What does it have to offer to the troops to make it a viable option? We know what it lacks, speed and survivability.

[PhoenixDog]

Sundys can sneak into places, where as a galaxy is flying high above everything. Sundy is Surprise! Galaxy is Hey FUCKERS!

[Naz The Eternal]

It serves as a covert means of travel transport for troops without alerting the air radar

[GreatMazinkaise]

It's got resupply capabilities... possibly (probably) even superior to the MAST deployable. Too bad it doesn't get a shield like its spiritual predecessor, the Jericho Mobile Point Base.

[Brusi]

People will find a use for it ;p

[Sikee Atric]

I'll be building a cert spec for a Sunderer, with the abilities it has, even defensive groups will find them so useful. Resupply option, full squad transport and decent movement speeds, complete with the longer (developer) term plans for certing variants later in the game, they'll become a mainstream unit as the game expands.

[Zebasiz]

We know what it lacks, speed and survivability.

Wait. The SUNDERER. The giant armored transport with defensive guns mounted upon it... lacks survivability?

Also consider the fact that, while a flash is fast... you're just sitting out in the open. Not surrounded by 3 feet of solid steel.

[Kezz]

Hey

OK, so as we all know, you will not need to put any certs into aquireing all vehicles in game. This of course means that everyone can pull aircav or other, cheap type of transporation like the Flash.

With this given, why would the sunderer ever be used as a transport. What does it have to offer to the troops to make it a viable option? We know what it lacks, speed and survivability.
Lacks survivability you say? When the devs have been yukking about it being able to ram MBTs to death, it's that heavily armoured?

[Soyokaze]

The flash has so little survivability you can die from hitting a tree. Once you get 30+ dudes all flashing towards a base, you're nigh guaranteeing that they're not going to get there at the same time, and some may not make it at all. (Though I'd LOVE to see that and could see, with practice, a team of people using such tactics for quick-strike infantry.)

Of further import is the design of the bases. A Sunderer is capable of ramming its way INTO the base and dropping off its payload under cover, bursting through the front lines.

That being said, Galaxys are the best and Galaxy pilots are the best people. :)

and PDog, who says my Galaxy can't sneak? ;)

[Figment]

and PDog, who says my Galaxy can't sneak? ;)

*raises hand*

In a game with 600+ enemies per side and an out of bounds area that forces you to go through an enemy front line, you'll be as sneaky and unnoticable as a formula 1 car on the Monaco circuit.

[CardiffGreens]

Plus, think of all the foot zergers you could squash with one of those beasts.

Especially if you could customise the horn to play "La Cucaracha" =)

[Rabb]

Especially if you could customise the horn to play "La Cucaracha" =)

And a how's my driving bumper sticker.

[MasterCalaelen]

Plus, think of all the foot zergers you could squash with one of those beasts.

I like how you think ;)

[Coreldan]

We also know that the Sunderer is the heaviest armored vehicle in game, as in it can take more beating than any of the MBTs for example.

[Canaris]

I can see this new Sunderer being well utilized, unlike the original this one will have the necessary speed, armour and ramming force (such a good idea) for punching through a defensive position. I'm very interested in the array of weapons it will have host, I hope they are also formidible.

And a how's my driving bumper sticker.
[I break for ducklings, all others beware] ;)

[Kalbuth]

Sundy transports MAXes

[MrKWalmsley]

I just realised how great of an asset it can be to defence. I mean one defensive tool is the Engy turret, but with the Sundy you have 2, both customizable, and both with the ability to turn 360 and look directly up and slightly down. Plus the protection it gives to the gunners from direct fire, plus the massive amounts of armour.

Given the option I would rather deploy a couple of sundys as a defence for a base than engy turrets, on the exterior and open areas of the base of course.

[Hrongar]

Two words: "Bang" "Bus"

[StumpyTheOzzie]

People will find a use for it ;p

Filming porn doesn't count.

I often use the bangbus as a suicide minesweeper. Sure, I die a horrible death but isn't that the job of 'point'? :lol:

[Figment]

There's a lot of ways to utilise the Sunderer, most people underestimate the power of Ground Transportation. Killed about 6 Magriders, 3 Prowlers and 1 stolen Vannie driving the Sunderer Mk1 in direct one on one combat.

Sunderer Mk2 is fastly more powerful.

The PS2 "Mk3" will be a bit in between the Mk1 and Mk2 in combat, but even more powerful in specific roles from the looks of it.

[Azren]

Lacks survivability you say? When the devs have been yukking about it being able to ram MBTs to death, it's that heavily armoured?

The problem is size. That thing makes a huge target, near impossible to miss for any AV.


This topic was not meant to question the sunderer's viability in general, only as transport vehicle. This is important. It will obviously be a very useful support vehicle, but how does it fare as a mass transport when you can have everyone roll their own Flash/mossy/whatever.

[TerminatorUK]

The vehicle certification requirement in PS1 proved not to promote the use ground transport as you would expect. In fact, outside of organised squads, the use of ground transport became quickly obsolwte with most people opting for a mossie.

In PS2 the very fact that people haven't already had to pay the cert cost for a mossie, the obvious speed/armour/power of the vehicle, increased player count (including new players happy to hop on a transport, high density of places viable to fight (not needing to traverse such large distances) and finally (very importantly) the associated (and maybe quite high) resource cost to pull an aircraft will probably mean they are actually used more frequently.

[Flaropri]

With this given, why would the sunderer ever be used as a transport. What does it have to offer to the troops to make it a viable option? We know what it lacks, speed and survivability.

I don't think it lacks survivability really (and it's a smaller target than a Galaxy IIRC). It also has the benefit of being able to safely (for it, not necessarily for the target) ram tanks out of it's way. The Galaxy can't do that; it can't provide that sort of disruptive charge through infantry and armor that the Sunderer can.

The Sunderer also has easier access to gateways and the interiors of buildings or other locations that are underneath some natural or man-made roof.

Depending on engine noise and skill of the pilot/driver, the Sunderer can, as others mentioned, be more stealthy in its approach than a Galaxy.

[Turdicus]

The gal is good for hot drops and for setting up a mobile spawn outside of the battle, but the sundy has been advertised as a battering ram. A flash, or even a squad of flashes, would likely fare much less well trying to get into the courtyard of an occupied base, whereas the Sundy would be able to punch right through and drop an entire squad (maybe even two if the rumors are correct) into the heart of an enemy base.

It depends on what strategy you're going for. Sure you COULD drive in a squad of flashes, but that won't be terribly effective at getting you past a defensive line like the sunderer is supposed to.

[FastAndFree]

And don't forget that the Sunderer is a supply vehicle. So if you have 2 Sunderers... Not even Chuck Norris could stop them

[Hamma]

The sunderer is quite a beast as well it will be used to plow through vehicles including tanks. This isn't your PlanetSide 1 Sunderer. ;)

[Redshift]

I want it to have a bubble shield, so it can smash full pelt into a base wall and deploy a shield for protection while the grunts run indoors

[Jaegen]

I want it to have a bubble shield, so it can smash full pelt into a base wall and deploy a shield for protection while the grunts run indoors

That might be a little OP, but it does bring up a good point. How vulnerable will squads coming out of Sunderers be? There aren't getting out of vehicle animations like in PS1 but I can see defenders just chucking grenades at a Sunderer and killing everyone coming out of it. Are players able to exit the Sunderer while it is moving?

[Baneblade]

The Sunderer is going to be a very important vehicle for War Machine. You will see some very interesting tactics from us using it.

[Redshift]

The Sunderer is going to be a very important vehicle for War Machine. You will see some very interesting tactics from us using it.

You can't possibly know that yet... it could be shit.

[Baneblade]

You can't possibly know that yet... it could be shit.

You are right, perhaps we shouldn't plan on using Vanguards or Lightnings either, because they might be shit.

[Redshift]

if you want to be any good you want to use whatever is effective. If you're just going to build an outfit around a vehicle that may not be very good then you may end up with a shit outfit. I don't think its unreasonable to state that, any outfit based on the sunderer in PS1 would be shit.

[Baneblade]

if you want to be any good you want to use whatever is effective. If you're just going to build an outfit around a vehicle that may not be very good then you may end up with a shit outfit. I don't think its unreasonable to state that, any outfit based on the sunderer in PS1 would be shit.

The Sunderer in our hands will be mostly a support station servicing our armor. Our plans are subject to change, just like everyone else does.

[Dubious]

My lightning will destroy ur stupid sunderer !

[Figment]

if you want to be any good you want to use whatever is effective. If you're just going to build an outfit around a vehicle that may not be very good then you may end up with a shit outfit. I don't think its unreasonable to state that, any outfit based on the sunderer in PS1 would be shit.

So you presume anyone who uses the PS1 Sunderer would be shit?

Good. Good. You keep believing it's the only thing you use and it makes you shit. :)



Or try and be creative. PS1 Sunderers used right are very powerful tools. Like Aurora's, most people don't use them right and don't want to take the time to learn to use them right.

[Redshift]

So you presume anyone who uses the PS1 Sunderer would be shit?

Good. Good. You keep believing it's the only thing you use and it makes you shit. :)



Or you could read what i said properly? I said if you as an outfit decide you'll only ever use one thing, you will end up sucking. The better outfits will use whatever is best for the job they're doing.

Feel free to try to respond to hacks on other conts in a sunderer if you want.....

[Figment]

Or you could read what i said properly? I said if you as an outfit decide you'll only ever use one thing, you will end up sucking. The better outfits will use whatever is best for the job they're doing.

Feel free to try to respond to hacks on other conts in a sunderer if you want.....

"If you'll only ever use one thing".

/argument.

[Kalbuth]

@figment : that's the whole point of redshift, basing on only 1 vec is recipe for disaster

@redshift : OTOH, no one ever said they would use ONLY Sunderer.

/diplomacy

[Flaropri]

Back on topic, I just remembered one other major reason to use a Sunderer over a Galaxy:

Galaxy production is more limited in the locations that can make it (Tech Stations, Footholds), Sunderer (IIRC) can be made at any main ground vehicle terminal. Of course it's all subject to change.

[Figment]

@figment : that's the whole point of redshift, basing on only 1 vec is recipe for disaster

@redshift : OTOH, no one ever said they would use ONLY Sunderer.

/diplomacy

I believe I said that in the first response:

"Good. Good. You keep believing it's the only thing you use and it makes you shit. :)"

RedShift simply needs a bit more imagination what people mean when they state it's going to be a key unit in their strategies.

[Redshift]

RedShift simply needs a bit more imagination what people mean when they state it's going to be a key unit in their strategies.

My point is more that he's never driven the vehicle, he's no idea what it's like, we don't even know what it does yet, and he wants to build an outfit around it, before beta. That outfit is doomed to failure.

[robocpf1]

@ the OP:

In PS1, go to a vehicle terminal with 30 people and all pull ATVs.

It takes around 7 seconds per vehicle coming off the pad. For thirty people. That's around three and a half minutes just to pull vehicles for yourselves, and that's not including the other 100 people probably trying to pull a vehicle from that same terminal. In PS1, vehicle queues can get very long. Even at a base behind your front lines, you're looking at an increased travel time (because you're using a base that's behind the front line to avoid the vehicle queue) plus the time to pull everyone's vehicle.

With ATVs specifically, they have a large weakness - to everything. I can kill an ATV with one clip of Lancer ammo, boom, you're down a member. Ten of them hit a mine field, boom, now you've wasted three and a half minutes (sounds like a short amount of time, but it's not, comparatively). And they have to go back and get more vehicles.

With a bus? Pull bus, everyone should be able to load within 10 seconds, and you're off and running towards the next base in a huge armored juggernaut before the first five people have pulled their ATVs.

That's why we have transport vehicles.

I have people tell me every so often that large outfits shouldn't use Galaxies anymore, they should all cert Mosquito instead. Well, I had 110 people online a couple of Thursdays ago. I'm not waiting that long for individual vehicles.

[Troika]

Twelve guys in a Sunderer is a big fat target. Twelve guys in tanks is an army.

[GreatMazinkaise]

Twelve guys in a Sunderer is a big fat target. Twelve guys in tanks is an army.

It also costs six to twelve times as much (at the bare minimum) and would be slower. There's a tradeoff...

[Troika]

Most valuable asset in game are the players. It might take a few minutes longer to assemble your tank army and it might cost 12 times more. Still, when you encounter an enemy - pound for pound your boys will ditch out at least as much damage to the enemy as they are ditching out at you and that justifies the cost - whatever it is and I refuse to gimp my boys for the journey for the sake of saving few minutes.

[robocpf1]

Most valuable asset in game are the players. It might take a few minutes longer to assemble your tank army and it might cost 12 times more. Still, when you encounter an enemy - pound for pound your boys will ditch out at least as much damage to the enemy as they are ditching out at you and that justifies the cost - whatever it is and I refuse to gimp my boys for the journey for the sake of saving few minutes.

I don't think anyone's debating the effectiveness of 1 Sunderer vs. 12 Tanks in a straight-out fight, I think the key phrase was "transport vehicle".

If you're transporting people, usually you need to get somewhere within a certain time (timers on missions, or on base hacks) or you need to respond to a threat by an enemy as quickly as possible. Waiting around for twelve people to pull their tanks isn't going to cut it for fast(ish) transport. That is what the Galaxy and Sunderer are for.

[Troika]

I don't think anyone's debating the effectiveness of 1 Sunderer vs. 12 Tanks in a straight-out fight, I think the key phrase was "transport vehicle".

If you're transporting people, usually you need to get somewhere within a certain time (timers on missions, or on base hacks) or you need to respond to a threat by an enemy as quickly as possible. Waiting around for twelve people to pull their tanks isn't going to cut it for fast(ish) transport. That is what the Galaxy and Sunderer are for.

My argument is that players should always be equipped to fight at max effectiveness as they are the ones winning fights. 12 guys in tanks are going to win fights 12 guys in a sunderer probably not as they are gimped against enemy force of same size.

Sunderer is good assault vehicle when you need to get your guys reliably to the objective through enemy defences in an expendable vehicle which you can then discard and that is about it. Traversing a longer distance should not be done In a Sundy as if you get jumped, you are not capable fighting at your max effectiveness, and couple guys in tanks/reavers can own you.

If we are in a hurry I still refuse leaving to the fight unprepared, if time runs out so be it. We cap it when we get there.

[Kalbuth]

Most valuable asset in game are the players. It might take a few minutes longer to assemble your tank army and it might cost 12 times more. Still, when you encounter an enemy - pound for pound your boys will ditch out at least as much damage to the enemy as they are ditching out at you and that justifies the cost - whatever it is and I refuse to gimp my boys for the journey for the sake of saving few minutes.

In the time you prepare your tanks, I'll get my sunderer squad in your gen and prevent you from getting your tanks ;)

[Flaropri]

If we are in a hurry I still refuse leaving to the fight unprepared, if time runs out so be it. We cap it when we get there.

So you'd rather have an assured defeat (resetting the battle or worse) than take a risk for victory?

Besides, with the resource system it isn't always an option to have everyone mount up in tanks or fighters rather than use a transport.

[Troika]

So you'd rather have an assured defeat (resetting the battle or worse) than take a risk for victory?.
We are not fighting in a void, if other teams can't do their part in the fight then we lose - sure. But in a game like this you can seldom foresee the exact time you have to get the job done - hundreds of people are fighting beside you, and you ow them to fight at your max effectiveness and not charge in in a gimped setup.

Besides, with the resource system it isn't always an option to have everyone mount up in tanks or fighters rather than use a transport.

Well then of course there is no other option. You work with the tools you have.

[Baneblade]

My point is more that he's never driven the vehicle, he's no idea what it's like, we don't even know what it does yet, and he wants to build an outfit around it, before beta. That outfit is doomed to failure.

Holy shit dude...

For one, War Machine is built around Vanguards, Lightnings, and Sunderers. We plan based on what we know, and adjust based on what we learn... just like everyfuckinbody else.

Don't be a twit.

[Flaropri]

We are not fighting in a void, if other teams can't do their part in the fight then we lose - sure. But in a game like this you can seldom foresee the exact time you have to get the job done - hundreds of people are fighting beside you, and you ow them to fight at your max effectiveness and not charge in in a gimped setup.

Timers and missions can give you a fairly good idea though.

For me, precisely because you're fighting with hundreds of people, it is important to be able to have a timely response. If the battle is lost because you're late, you're doing a disservice to those that were fighting in it.

Fighting with full capacity is valuable, but so is flexibility and the ability to adapt to changing battlefield conditions. You want to specialize? Please do, hopefully there will be enough of an active population that it won't be a problem so you can enjoy your style of play while still performing important functions for others. I do however think you're holding a narrow view as to the value of transports and responding to a situation quicker.

[Redshift]

Holy shit dude...

For one, War Machine is built around Vanguards, Lightnings, and Sunderers. We plan based on what we know, and adjust based on what we learn... just like everyfuckinbody else.

Don't be a twit.


Sorry figments extending a small point into a hypothetical argument.

Our conversation is you say you'll use the sunderer loads and me saying you don't know what it does yet

[Top Sgt]

have you listened to the devs op? The sunderer is super heavily armored equal to a main battle tank level.. has 2 guns on top 1of which can be set to AA. With how full the air will likely be around bases.. it's the new gal drop for PS2.. drive a platoon using 3 of these into a base and jump out and rush the cap points.. that will be a very effective tactic in this game.

First vehicle i am spawning in game is the sunderer.. they are also faster than your giving credit for.

[Firearms]

If we are in a hurry I still refuse leaving to the fight unprepared, if time runs out so be it. We cap it when we get there.

Double bagging is cool an'all but I'm sure you're not both talking about the same situations.
A Sunderer is gonna roll in and drop off the guys for the hack etc. Hopefully even drive back and get the next lot - Like a Galaxy but without all that Z-axis craziness.
A tank column is slick and will lead the way no doubt, but you're not really gonna roll in with 12 of 'em and get the valet to park them while you all pile out are you?
If that's really true you're the guy that takes the only tank to get to the airfield in BF1942...nobody likes that guy :cry:

[Baneblade]

Sorry figments extending a small point into a hypothetical argument.

Our conversation is you say you'll use the sunderer loads and me saying you don't know what it does yet

It is a mobile vehicle repair station with more armor than an MBT, it can carry our mobile infantry, and it can push through an enemy Prowler line. I plan to call our Sunderer drivers, Linebackers.

What else do we need to know?

[JesNC]

It is a mobile vehicle repair station with more armor than an MBT, it can carry our mobile infantry, and it can push through an enemy Prowler line. I plan to call our Sunderer drivers, Linebackers.

What else do we need to know?

That it's got an infantry supply station, too ^^

These things will be the backbone of any coordinated assault.

[Baneblade]

Well there you go, the only thing it doesn't do is spawn players. Which I don't want it to do anyway.

[Figment]

Well there you go, the only thing it doesn't do is spawn players. Which I don't want it to do anyway.

Agreed as well. Btw, cheap and heavily armoured?



Who says you ever use one Sunderer at a time? ;p

[Baneblade]

Who says you ever use one Sunderer at a time? ;p

'They're moving in herds!'

[/Dr. Alan Grant]

[DukeTerror]

One area the Sundy (or the smaller ground transports) was great at was places with top cover from aircraft like tree canopies and canyons. The flyboys have a harder time hitting ground targets in those areas so the focus shifts to hitting Galaxies instead. With less infrantry needing to shoot AA, there is even more flyboys around for those targets. Ground transport in this case takes advantage of the cover, while the airborne alternative is getting the brunt of the air superiority.

Edit: BTW, I will throw money at the devs if they add a cattlecatcher as a customization for the Sunderer.

[Rodel]

Hey did you guys notice how base designs allow you to drive straight into some places. PS2 seems to have opened up a new tactical approach to assaulting some bases. Think about it. Fill up a Sunderer and drive straight into the base all the while Max units and heavy assault pop out in a spread rushing the hallways. Don't forget about the two gunners providing INDOOR ARTILLERY SUPPORT!!! Sounds like one hell of a fun spec ops mission. This is also why in PS2 you'll have an incentive to use a sunderer as well as the Galaxy unlike PS1.

Now please stop the stupid bickering :confused: work on your witty and intelagent bickering