Israel

[MightyMan]

As an Israeli MAN, I just wanted to know your opinions about my country and all the shit storms around it, you know because of, well... Israel and Palestine and Iran and stuffs.
Fell free to discuss anything about Israel here.

Please be mature, don't be racist and respect other opinions.

If you have any questions or anything, I'l be happy to answer you with MY NEUTRAL OPINIONS.

[ItsTheSheppy]

It would be nice if you and your Muslim neighbors could stop killing and hating each other long enough to work together to build a better and more functional society. You might find they'll be less focused on having their own country if they felt welcomed in yours. I'm speaking more to your government and your culture as a whole rather than to just you, mind. I don't imagine its your fault personally.

It's just such a waste of time, having two cultures of people living in such close proximity who hate each other because they have different invisible friends. It's depressing, and a major source for a lot of unnecessary conflict in that region.

[Vreki]

If you will forgive the expression, both sides are bastards.
But the Israeli are our kind of bastards, and their enemies are mostly our enemies.

And by "our kind" I do not mean race or religion, but a democracy with western values.

[Red Beard]

The problem I see is that it's ultimately a matter of land titles, and for better or worse, that would ultimately defer to which religious text you consider.

I have a lot of people in my facebook network, and most of them have a very distorted portrayal of what's going on there. For example, a picture of Palestinians suffering violence at the hands of soldiers/IDF, without any mention of bombers or rocket attacks.

[MightyMan]

@ItsTheSheppy:
Believe me, hostility is not our choice, not the Israeli's and not the Palestine's.
It is the choice of the terrorist organisations around Israel and some of the countries that surround us.
There is a saying in Israel: "If Arabs would put down their weapons, there would be peace. If Israel would put down her weapons there would be no Israel".
This saying is not far from reality, and we don't really have a choice.

Hamas Mickey Mouse Teaches Terror to Kids - YouTube

As funny as it may be, that is the reality in most of the hostile Islamic countries, and little kids are brain washed from youth, to hate all those who are not Islamic them selves, and some times even each other.

If you will forgive the expression, both sides are bastards.
But the Israeli are our kind of bastards, and their enemies are mostly our enemies.

And by "our kind" I do not mean race or religion, but a democracy with western values.

Not confusing at all.

[ItsTheSheppy]

I never meant to imply that Israel is solely at fault. You just happen to be from Israel so I'm talking mostly to you. If you find a Palestinian friend to come on here, I'll talk to him.

As has been said, both sides are kind of being bastards, and always have been. And really, it all boils down to one side thinking their imaginary friend is slightly LESS imaginary than the other side's. Cue centuries of bloodshed, that we will never be rid of for as long as religion is a thing people take seriously.

So yeah. that problem's never going away. Welcome to the forum.

[MightyMan]

The problem I see is that it's ultimately a matter of land titles, and for better or worse, that would ultimately defer to which religious text you consider.

I have a lot of people in my facebook network, and most of them have a very distorted portrayal of what's going on there. For example, a picture of Palestinians suffering violence at the hands of soldiers/IDF, without any mention of bombers or rocket attacks.

Considering the only thing the media is shows as of today is bad things, and Israel is a big god mine of bad things, the media concentrate on any kind of bad thing that may happen in Israel, usually stripping off facts to make it look more shocking and interesting.

[Vreki]

I remember a novel by Tom Clancy where the Palestinians got "smart" and started to use Gandhi tactics. That would be pretty devastating for Israels moral position, but I don't see it happening.

On the other hand, the settlements are preventing Israel from being considered the good guy instead of the lesser evil. I don't see what they expect to gain from this, but I heard that internal politic battles in Israel are pretty vicious too.

So status quo forever, or at least until it all ends in mushroom clouds.

[MightyMan]

I never meant to imply that Israel is solely at fault. You just happen to be from Israel so I'm talking mostly to you. If you find a Palestinian friend to come on here, I'll talk to him.

As has been said, both sides are kind of being bastards, and always have been. And really, it all boils down to one side thinking their imaginary friend is slightly LESS imaginary than the other side's. Cue centuries of bloodshed, that we will never be rid of for as long as religion is a thing people take seriously.

So yeah. that problem's never going away. Welcome to the forum.

I never meant to imply you were implying that that Israel is solely at fault.
And I agree with you.

[Warborn]

Israel is currently engaged in apartheid against the Palestinians and has left a mountain of civilians behind it in its pursuit of retaliating against Hamas or whoever. Or, hell, even in simply keeping the Palestinians repressed it often results to lethal force without any real provocation (see: the Gaza flotilla massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid)). On the other hand, terrorists themselves have killed Israeli civilians via suicide bombings and rocket attacks. Not to mention the previous Arab-Israeli conflicts wherein the neighboring Arab countries made their best attempt at wiping out Israel.

But, ultimately my opinion is that Israel is more to blame than the Palestinians. Israel is doing everything they can to keep the Palestinians in a state of poverty and continues to build more and more illegal settlements beyond their previously agreed upon territorial restrictions. It is hard to see Israel as the victim in this when the United States will do essentially anything to keep Israel from being held accountable for its human rights/international law violations, and makes sure the IDF has the most potent weapons at its disposal.

As for Iran, I don't like theocracies anymore than the next guy, but considering that Iran exists on the same planet as the United States I find it perfectly reasonable that they would want to pursue nuclear weapons. When Iran's neighbors were invaded so readily and torn apart by the US and its allies, what country in their right mind wouldn't want to have nukes to ward off potential attacks?

I think, given enough time, Iran will outgrow its Ayatollahs and their repressive regimes. I don't think they are in the market for nuclear war. I would be very disappointed if Israel and Iran went to war over this issue.

[Neurotoxin]

I hope that you campaign for Palestinian liberation, for a single state where everyone can coexist peacefully rather than a 100% Jewish state. Those are the two biggest issues for me there, the brutal apartheid regime that kicks people out and walls them off from their family's homes (recent enough to have a key, I'm not talking about claiming biblical land rights) and the promotion of Israel as a 100% Jewish-only state.

As for Terrorism on both sides... A people who had been oppressed by various empires, who finally gained their independence, only for a land-grab by wealthy European **** to ignite the spark that would light the land ablaze with apartheid oppression. And the moment Israel started being backed by the US instead of Europe, they became a tool of US military operations. The Palestinians have a right to fight back, they have a right to self-determination in the face of Imperialism. If someone kicked me out of my family's home of many generations, told me I couldn't live there ever again, and moved me to an uninhabited stretch of non-arable land, you'll be damn right that I'm gonna take up arms against my oppressors despite the overwhelming odds.

That being said, I hope that you campaign for Palestinian liberation. There is no way they are going to be free from the smothering boot of imperialism without a popular campaign from the population of Israel. One side is armed with some of the most advanced military weaponry in existence, the other has always been barred from having weapons or even construction supplies to build new infrastructure when they get kicked out of their former homes. Clearly this has to end if anything is going to improve.

That is my perspective on Israel at least.

[Vash02]

@ItsTheSheppy:
There is a saying in Israel: "If Arabs would put down their weapons, there would be peace. If Israel would put down her weapons there would be no Israel".
This saying is not far from reality, and we don't really have a choice.

You could also say that the Palestinians put down their weapons and then there was no Palestine.
Why should Palestinians put down their weapons to lose what little they have left?

[MightyMan]

I remember a novel by Tom Clancy where the Palestinians got "smart" and started to use Gandhi tactics. That would be pretty devastating for Israels moral position, but I don't see it happening.

On the other hand, the settlements are preventing Israel from being considered the good guy instead of the lesser evil. I don't see what they expect to gain from this, but I heard that internal politic battles in Israel are pretty vicious too.

So status quo forever, or at least until it all ends in mushroom clouds.

Yep. One thing it will not end with is mushroom clouds tough. The "world" is keeping Israel on a very short leash to make sure that no such weapons are in development and that Israel to not engage in wars against other countries.
Well as long there is no war, Israel the others will stay in this "bullshit state" for ever. Hostile Islamic countries will yell "ARGH ISRAEL DIE", Palestine will point a finger at bully-Israel in front of the UN and Israel will try to satisfy everyone but will fail horribly in each case.

[Saifoda]

Well most of what needs to be said in here has been said already so far. The one thing I would like to add though is that more frequently (not always) than not it is the Palestinian groups (PLO etc...) which refuse to have proper talks with Israel. Many of their "preconditions" are simply absurd -- the complete annihilation of Israel, for example...

[Pella]

Think of it as if the Chinese moved 1b people into north America and claimed that this was there land.

How would you feel and most importantly how would you react?. And while trying not to play the "my army is bigger than yours card". The Chinese could look after themselves.


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[ItsTheSheppy]

Think of it as if the Chinese moved 1b people into north America and claimed that this was there land.

How would you feel and most importantly how would you react?. And while trying not to play the "my army is bigger than yours card". The Chinese could look after themselves.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I'm not sure that the analogy really fits. The Palestinians don't outnumber the Israelis three to one, unless I'm mistaken? Also, havn't the Palestinians kind of always lived in that region, or at least nearby? China is a good distance from north america...

Would it be more like the Native Americans reclaiming land? If there were a lot more of them?

[MightyMan]

Israel is currently engaged in apartheid against the Palestinians and has left a mountain of civilians behind it in its pursuit of retaliating against Hamas or whoever. Or, hell, even in simply keeping the Palestinians repressed it often results to lethal force without any real provocation (see: the Gaza flotilla massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid)). On the other hand, terrorists themselves have killed Israeli civilians via suicide bombings and rocket attacks. Not to mention the previous Arab-Israeli conflicts wherein the neighboring Arab countries made their best attempt at wiping out Israel.

But, ultimately my opinion is that Israel is more to blame than the Palestinians. Israel is doing everything they can to keep the Palestinians in a state of poverty and continues to build more and more illegal settlements beyond their previously agreed upon territorial restrictions. It is hard to see Israel as the victim in this when the United States will do essentially anything to keep Israel from being held accountable for its human rights/international law violations, and makes sure the IDF has the most potent weapons at its disposal.

As for Iran, I don't like theocracies anymore than the next guy, but considering that Iran exists on the same planet as the United States I find it perfectly reasonable that they would want to pursue nuclear weapons. When Iran's neighbors were invaded so readily and torn apart by the US and its allies, what country in their right mind wouldn't want to have nukes to ward off potential attacks?

I think, given enough time, Iran will outgrow its Ayatollahs and their repressive regimes. I don't think they are in the market for nuclear war. I would be very disappointed if Israel and Iran went to war over this issue.

"keeping the Palestinians repressed"
Sight, You see: The media focuses only on the bad things Israel does, usually without confirming their facts.
Well lets see. Palestinians are citizens of Israel. They have all the rights that a normal Israeli citizen has. They can vote in the elections, they CAN BE elected into the government and they get full education, funded by the Israeli government.
The thing that you are talking about are Palestinians from the Gaza strip.
Why is it different? Because they are not repressed by the Israeli government, they are repressed by others.
You see, the only thing Israel can control in those territories is what is exported and imported to them. That does not mean "you get 1 bread loaf a month" it means Israel checks what is imported/exported in there in case there are any guns or rockets in there, and prevents those ONLY if there are any guns or rockets in there.
Now the Gaza strip is under the control of another body called the HAMAS.
Other parts of those territories are under the control of a body called the "Palestinian national authority".
Both are almost completely autonomous, the first one wanting to kill us all, the second funded by Israel, and does every thing possible to fart as loudly and as smelly as possible in our face.
Long story short, the repressed Palestinians are not repressed by Israel, mostly because it cannot repress them.
If yo want to know who represses them feel free to ask.

Yet again, sigh: "the Gaza flotilla massacre"
No, erase the massacre part and then you will be right.
So. The Gaza flotilla were a "a group of piece makers" who illegally crossed Israel's borders, while rejecting Israel's demand check the cargo of the ship. Lets analyse this; There was no promise the cargo of the ship held food and humanitarian supplies, it could just as well hold weapons, bombs, terrorists and babies to sacrifice for Satan (yes this is cynicism). Also, there is no need to say that illegally crossing the border, is well, illegal.
So Israel sent a squad of soldiers to hijack the ship and send it to be examined in the closest ship port, before the supplies were sent to Palestine and the "piece makers" were sent home. and hijacking is not a wrong thing, because as I stated, they were aggressively breaking international law.
At first, the squad entered the ship with basically PAINTBALL GUNS that shoot rubber bullets that are used to inflict pain, in case of one of the soldiers being attacked but cause no permanent damage in any way.
You see, the second the soldiers landed on the ship from the helicopter, they were attacked by metal poles, axes and any kind of thing you can throw or use as a melee weapon.
https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS2yP0625gjn-PiDaq-7aGHcaqmC0uz3hoyZNMDYRZOzJqC7AhKhttps://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQW9WBZRRH_ng2DXzEdSpTFZApQQdQyW SUc1GPC03eLN4YmZ6ovUwhttps://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ5P4lKNeP4OuhDOtHvVHxnnzvhIJMUE rSC2tI56MM8lRzn5rob
To save the soldiers, they have sent reinforcements to the ship, who, this time came with REAL guns guns, because now the "peace makers" were treated as full terrorists and there was no justification not to treat them like that. Notice how 9 passengers out 41 passengers died. Massacre= worth killing everyone and better yet, they were killed ONLY because they attacked the soldiers with the clear objective of harming them. Those who really were peaceful, were not harmed at all.
Long story short Israel could have done it in a better way, but saying that it was a massacre is completely wrong.

[Warborn]

"keeping the Palestinians repressed"
Sight, You see: The media focuses only on the bad things Israel does, usually without confirming their facts.

How about almost straight from the source?

WikiLeaks: Israel aimed to keep Gaza economy on brink of collapse (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/wikileaks-israel-aimed-to-keep-gaza-economy-on-brink-of-collapse-1.335354)

Israel controls what goes in and out of Gaza and other Palestinian enclaves. They say the goal is to prevent weapons from being sent in, but the reality is that they want to keep the Palestinian areas "'functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis". Meanwhile, anything the Palestinians or their sympathizers do is met with overwhelming force, up to and including the execution of civilians. (http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/15session/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf)

Meanwhile, who're the real victims of violence here? Is this horrible mistreatment of Palestinians and, as I said, apartheid justified because Israel is under grave threat? Well, considering the entire conflict has seen more than 5x as many Palestinian dead as Israeli, including 1620 Palestinian children killed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities_19 48.E2.80.93present) (more than 10x as many Israeli children killed) I'm not sure Israel is the David in this story.

You can't blame this on the media. The numbers don't lie. Settlements are being built beyond agreed-upon boundaries, the outright repression of the Palestinians is admitted to, and there is a tremendous body count of dead civilians at the feet of the side with the tanks and attack helicopters. The only reason there aren't sanctions against Israel for its behaviour is because it would be political suicide for American politicians to ever suggest Israel be brought to task for its activities. So the US vetoes anything anyone ever does which is even remotely critical of the UN, and governments like my own in Canada who want nothing more than to fellate the American government for eternity follow suit and embarrass us all.

[MightyMan]

I hope that you campaign for Palestinian liberation, for a single state where everyone can coexist peacefully rather than a 100% Jewish state. Those are the two biggest issues for me there, the brutal apartheid regime that kicks people out and walls them off from their family's homes (recent enough to have a key, I'm not talking about claiming biblical land rights) and the promotion of Israel as a 100% Jewish-only state.

As for Terrorism on both sides... A people who had been oppressed by various empires, who finally gained their independence, only for a land-grab by wealthy European **** to ignite the spark that would light the land ablaze with apartheid oppression. And the moment Israel started being backed by the US instead of Europe, they became a tool of US military operations. The Palestinians have a right to fight back, they have a right to self-determination in the face of Imperialism. If someone kicked me out of my family's home of many generations, told me I couldn't live there ever again, and moved me to an uninhabited stretch of non-arable land, you'll be damn right that I'm gonna take up arms against my oppressors despite the overwhelming odds.

That being said, I hope that you campaign for Palestinian liberation. There is no way they are going to be free from the smothering boot of imperialism without a popular campaign from the population of Israel. One side is armed with some of the most advanced military weaponry in existence, the other has always been barred from having weapons or even construction supplies to build new infrastructure when they get kicked out of their former homes. Clearly this has to end if anything is going to improve.

That is my perspective on Israel at least.

Sorry but no, as much as It would be good to all of us, it is impossible and unrealistic. That is the truth.
AS the other things, please read my reply to Warborn.
Us oppressing the Palestinians with our army, is not true, the army is used in this case for no more then regulating hostile situations, such as illegal protests (yes Israel lets Palestinians make protests, by illegal I mean the ones where they burn tires and throw rocks and Molotov cocktails), and massive fights between Israeli and Palestinian people.
No Palestinians were kicked out of their homes, they "ran away" at they'r own will, mostly to other Arab countries in the vicinity. Those that stayed, still live there until today and no one kicks them out.
"land-grab": Oh my, they legally bought plots of lands from those who owned them, just like you will do if you will ever buy a house.

[Malorn]

Meh.

[Baneblade]

Everything was fine May 13th, 1948.

[MightyMan]

How about almost straight from the source?

WikiLeaks: Israel aimed to keep Gaza economy on brink of collapse (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/wikileaks-israel-aimed-to-keep-gaza-economy-on-brink-of-collapse-1.335354)

Israel controls what goes in and out of Gaza and other Palestinian enclaves. They say the goal is to prevent weapons from being sent in, but the reality is that they want to keep the Palestinian areas "'functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis". Meanwhile, anything the Palestinians or their sympathizers do is met with overwhelming force, up to and including the execution of civilians. (http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/15session/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf)

Meanwhile, who're the real victims of violence here? Is this horrible mistreatment of Palestinians and, as I said, apartheid justified because Israel is under grave threat? Well, considering the entire conflict has seen more than 5x as many Palestinian dead as Israeli, including 1620 Palestinian children killed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities_19 48.E2.80.93present) (more than 10x as many Israeli children killed) I'm not sure Israel is the David in this story.

You can't blame this on the media. The numbers don't lie. Settlements are being built beyond agreed-upon boundaries, the outright repression of the Palestinians is admitted to, and there is a tremendous body count of dead civilians at the feet of the side with the tanks and attack helicopters. The only reason there aren't sanctions against Israel for its behaviour is because it would be political suicide for American politicians to ever suggest Israel be brought to task for its activities. So the US vetoes anything anyone ever does which is even remotely critical of the UN, and governments like my own in Canada who want nothing more than to fellate the American government for eternity follow suit and embarrass us all.

So. You know how those facts were pulled out of the ass of pro-palestine idiots in the UN and stuff. For example there was a story last year, when an important ambassador from the UN (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/israeli-u-n-ambassador-calls-for-u-n-employees-dismissal-for-tweeting-misleading-photo-of-dead-palestinian-child/), tweeted a photo of a 6 years old girl, dead and covered in blood, claiming it is the work of Israel. Immediately, everyone started shouting and crying "Israel fuck you".
But whoopsy daisy, someone was smart enough to search that picture in tineye, and it appeared that it was actually a pic of a girl who died after FALLING FROM A SWING. You know where does this ambassador work now after the incident? IN THE UN. Unlike what you may think, many of those who are in charge of finding those statistics are also pro-palestinian and are very much against Israel, which means most of those statistics are faked to present Palestine as a baby angel and Israel as jack the ripper.
Now why is it not possible for 1620 children to be murdered by the IDF?
1. The IDF never EVER attacks peaceful civilians or civilian homes. When homes WERE attacked was when terrorists reinforced in them.
2. THAT'S IT
If children were killed, then it was because of them having a bomb attached to them, or (yes yes) as an accident, which is like maybe 3 after 60 years of a constant warfare.
And your "source", it is a link to wikipedia that says nothing about dead children.
"Israel aimed to keep Gaza economy on brink of collapse": I you would actually be there, you will see that they live better then in most of the muslim countries. This I have seen with my own eyes.

I think Israel's pretty awesome. It's an island of modern society sitting in a sea of culture that is about 600 years behind the rest of the world.

Yey, your not trying to kill me with aggressive arguments, that's refreshing ;)

You could also say that the Palestinians put down their weapons and then there was no Palestine.
Why should Palestinians put down their weapons to lose what little they have left?
What I said had nothing to do with palestine, but with the countries that surround Israel.
If palaetine had no weapons THERE WOULD BE PALESTINE, mostly because that is situation right now. Israel could have easily claimed it as it's territory 60 years ago. Instead it gave it the "Palestinian national authority".

Think of it as if the Chinese moved 1b people into north America and claimed that this was there land.

How would you feel and most importantly how would you react?. And while trying not to play the "my army is bigger than yours card". The Chinese could look after themselves.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

SO: The territory of Israel was given by the UN (well, another international body that the UN was later replaced by the UN and had the same authority) to Britain, after WW1 to be divided into two countries, one Palestinian and the other- Israeli. Britain took this because they thought there is oil sources in this territory, but after they understood they were wrong they treated it as a big burden, and decreased their support and authority over the territory.
Because of that, many disputes started between **** and palestines, that were not solved by Britain (they'r job was to keep peace in the territories).
Those disputes grew bigger and bigger, and more violent and aggressive as time passed and eventually carried over to the day of Israel's declaration, when the new Israeli territories were attacked by pretty much everyone, from the Palestinians to Egypt. To everyone's surprise, Israel did not only win the war, but also captured the new Palestinian country territories, most of which are today under the control of a completely autonomous body called the "Palestinian national authority".
Thus, Israeli territories are completely legal, and the Palestinians have their own territories too.

Well most of what needs to be said in here has been said already so far. The one thing I would like to add though is that more frequently (not always) than not it is the Palestinian groups (PLO etc...) which refuse to have proper talks with Israel. Many of their "preconditions" are simply absurd -- the complete annihilation of Israel, for example...

"Well most of what needs to be said in here has been said already so far."
As the forum section's name implies, this is a debate, it's not how it works, sadly considering 90% of the people here are trying to cut my balls off.

[Saifoda]

...
"Well most of what needs to be said in here has been said already so far."
As the forum section's name implies, this is a debate, it's not how it works, sadly considering 90% of the people here are trying to cut my balls off.

You seem to be doing just fine by yourself ;)


As for Warborn's (I think it was) statistics of Israeli's killing 5x as many children as palestinians, that is an extremely short sighted notation and the understanding of it doesn't take into account any other variables. For example, THEY WERE USED AS HUMAN SHIELDS.

Oh but I digress; I forgot the topic here was about how completely fucked up Israel is. Let me jump on the bandwagon...

[Figment]

As others said, both sides are pretty bad right now.


What can you expect after centuries of hate, disrespect, self-centeredness and events culminating in one sided proclamations, several wars, oppression, land stealing, poverty, indoctrination, extremism - all with different victims and aggressors - and thus the current state of massive paranoia and mass hysteria between both sides.

Both sides can easily point at the other and say "THEY DID THIS TO US!" and they'd be right. It's not at all anymore about who started it, who has the power or "who's more right". It's about a bunch of arrogant, self-important, self-righteous people cramped together in a tiny shed they think is more important than anything else in the world with a fued to the death over who gets to be the biggest immature gits and a lot of dead victims as a result.


Yay.

[Warborn]

So. You know how those facts were pulled out of the ass of pro-palestine idiots in the UN and stuff.

I'm not going to get into this with you. You have made up your mind, that is clear to me, and I know there isn't any source I could name which voices criticism of Israel that you'd accept.

But you wanted it, so here you go. The conservatives in Western nations in general think it's okay for Israel to kill and abuse as many Palestinians as they want. The people who aren't conservatives generally think Palestinians are also people and therefore murdering them or violating their human rights is "a bad thing". So there you go. That's it in a nutshell. Same as everything else, there's a certain segment of our populations which are 100% ideology, and will support Israel unequivocally, primarily because they hate Muslims.

[Figment]

primarily because they feel guilty about the holocaust and can't see **** as anything other than victims.

EDITED quote (sorry, forgot to mention the edit :)).

Plus they're a culture closer to Christian culture than islam due to the wars between the two.



That said, nobody who criticizes Israel here thinks you're wrong when you say Hamas is pure inbred indoctrinating evil and should probably be removed with a rusty scalpel. Just that people expect a western nation to apply civilian casualty restricting tactics. Something nigh impossible when fighting civilian militants who both deliberately and through incapacity and lack of organization and means can't really do any different than fight a guerrilla from within their towns. And yes, most people put almost equal blame on both parties for civilian casualties then, but it's expected from Hamas because they are expected to have lower standards. It's not "fair", but then, when was war fair? People don't expect the easy way out for Israel, which would have been to deport them all as that would have been doing what Germany did to the **** and wouldn't be accepted.

Perhaps it just wasn't a very thoughtout idea to unilaterally declare the Jewish state of Israel back in 1948...

Btw, I'd imagine most people think of the PLO as the IRA: pretty much reformed and beaten into submission with some rogue elements left. Israelis aren't quite as hated as Hamas. But that doesn't mean you can't be critical of Israel, especially if you project western standards on them and expect them to uphold it. Nobody expects anything from a third rate terrorist organization and nobody wishes their methods well. That doesn't mean they can't sympathise with an underdog, which is natural to humans too.

ETA is probably considered to have better ethics than Hamas and that's telling!

[Warborn]

You may want to edit your quote there. I never said anything about **** and Holocaust whatevers. Those are your words being attributed to me.

[Neurotoxin]

Wow, this fascist has so much pro-Zionist rhetoric that it is hard to address it all.

Why is your avatar a hammer, star, and sickle, anyhow? You are no Jewish communist.

Tell ya what: Go to Jerusalem, see the single-file cages Palestinians are corralled into to get through to Jerusalem, IF they are let through. You won't have the same treatment, you can freely enter Jerusalem. Then keep going, all the way into Palestinian territory. Whip out a camera, take a nice picture of an IDF poster, make sure a soldier sees you. Tell us the results, what you see, how you were treated, etc. If you are shot dead, make sure a relative can come back and post your obituary for us.

[Malorn]

Meh.

[Neurotoxin]

Got pics of those Jerusalem "cages"?

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/100221-checkpoint-bcol1-10a.grid-6x2.jpg

http://www.richwainwright.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Israel0008.jpg

http://www.alternativenews.org/english/images/stories/news/2011/June_2011/DSCN6350.jpg

[therandomone]

I think Israel's pretty awesome. It's an island of modern society sitting in a sea of culture that is about 600 years behind the rest of the world.

Of the five most populous Muslim-majority nations, four of them have elected female heads of state.
In fact, 45 percent of American Muslims in one poll said they see evolution as "the best explanation for the origin of human life on Earth," which isn't so shabby, considering only 24 percent of evangelical Christians believed the same. The percentage of Muslims embracing the scientific explanation for the origin of life was about the same as Americans as a whole (48 percent).
And historically, they have a hell of a track record. Science and math as we know it wouldn't even exist without Islam. The Islamic Golden Age caused a revolution in virtually every field of human thought, during which they fucking invented algebra -- and advanced everything from geography and exploration to the arts, architecture, philosophy, urban development, medicine and health.

The Muslims actually came pretty damn close to sharing all this brilliance with the truly ass-backward kingdoms of Christian Europe, since the Islamic caliphates blanketed every country they conquered with schools, libraries, public works and the most comprehensive system of social welfare on the planet. In fact, the case has been made that if the caliphates succeeded in conquering all of Europe an Italian Renaissance would have been unnecessary.

And the Muslims are the ones stuck in the past? Try again.

Granted, I'm a fan of Israel. More specifically, I'm a huge fan of krav maga probably the most awesome hand-to-hand combat. And for that, Israel has my support.

[ItsTheSheppy]

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/100221-checkpoint-bcol1-10a.grid-6x2.jpg

http://www.richwainwright.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Israel0008.jpg

http://www.alternativenews.org/english/images/stories/news/2011/June_2011/DSCN6350.jpg

Dammit Neuro, you weren't supposed to totally deliver, immediately, pictures of the thing you were talking about. What do you think this is?

Besides, those are clearly shopped. I looked at all the pixels.

[GODMOLLY]

Just wanted to say I support Israel with everything and always have. They are America's close ally and we will be side by side in an attack if Iran does not comply with everything going on.

PS. I love Iran on how they say they would demolish the US Navy, which right there makes them seem weak. After the loss of the RQ-170 and saying that they brought it down by "hacking" it basically makes them look like complete fools, how drones and GPS works they can't "Hack" it the way they claim.

[Vreki]

You will also notice that none of their arabic brothers care for the palestinians. They are either considered troublemakers or tools.

[MightyMan]

I'm not going to get into this with you. You have made up your mind, that is clear to me, and I know there isn't any source I could name which voices criticism of Israel that you'd accept.

But you wanted it, so here you go. The conservatives in Western nations in general think it's okay for Israel to kill and abuse as many Palestinians as they want. The people who aren't conservatives generally think Palestinians are also people and therefore murdering them or violating their human rights is "a bad thing". So there you go. That's it in a nutshell. Same as everything else, there's a certain segment of our populations which are 100% ideology, and will support Israel unequivocally, primarily because they hate Muslims.

THIS IS A DEBATE, I am supposed to counter your arguments, and you are supposed to counter mine. Being offended by what I say or whatever, is just stupid. The debate goes on until, one proves that the other is wrong, and it is not personal, that is all.
Anyway, back to the debate:
"Israel to kill and abuse as many Palestinians as they want":
As I have already said. It is not true. You DO NOT know what happens here each time a Palestinian is ACTUALLY dies because of the IDF. Shitstorms everywhere in the local media and lots of Israeli people protesting and stupid things like that. OK. Saying that Israel murders Palestinians or abuses them is absurd. The Palestinians who live in what you would call "legal" Israeli territories are given full israeli citizenship, full rights and have representatives in the government. Those that live in "illegal" territories, are under their own rule. Israel, NEVER attacks Palestinians UNLESS they have weapons on their hands, or bombs attached to them.
They are not abused. in any way. At all. They are under their own rule, and Israel just can't abuse them in any way because of that. It is like if you said the the USA does not give citizenship and rights to people who live in France.
It just makes no sense.

Wow, this fascist has so much pro-Zionist rhetoric that it is hard to address it all.

Why is your avatar a hammer, star, and sickle, anyhow? You are no Jewish communist.

Tell ya what: Go to Jerusalem, see the single-file cages Palestinians are corralled into to get through to Jerusalem, IF they are let through. You won't have the same treatment, you can freely enter Jerusalem. Then keep going, all the way into Palestinian territory. Whip out a camera, take a nice picture of an IDF poster, make sure a soldier sees you. Tell us the results, what you see, how you were treated, etc. If you are shot dead, make sure a relative can come back and post your obituary for us.

"Why is your avatar a hammer, star, and sickle, anyhow? You are no Jewish communist. "
1. This is an avatar, and it nothing with me being Jewish, but with my other internet nickname- the mighty comrade.
2. You're no gorilla in a space suit. Yeh you can see how stupid this argument is -_-.

The other things you said- it is so idiotic, I can't even believe people still believe in that.
SO- you see, Palestinians, yes yes, they are given full rights, FULL CITIZEN RIGHTS, they can go to any place in Israel, without any kind of restriction, soldiers NEVER shoot peaceful Palestinians, and those are allowed freely into both Jewish religious places, and Islamic. Unlike you may think, there is full religious freedom in Israel. Oh and yes I know that from personal experience. My cousin was there, went through PALESTINIAN territories and INTO Jerusalem, she took photos of many things, some of them in front of soldiers, and was not shot even one time. CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?

Got pics of those Jerusalem "cages"?

I have, you know look to your side and you might just see some AIR. Worst cage evar.

[Figment]

I have, you know look to your side and you might just see some AIR. Worst cage evar.

Seen those pics above too?

[MightyMan]

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/100221-checkpoint-bcol1-10a.grid-6x2.jpg

http://www.richwainwright.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Israel0008.jpg

http://www.alternativenews.org/english/images/stories/news/2011/June_2011/DSCN6350.jpg

Oh you mean those cages. Which are basically waiting lines, just like the ones in which you stand when you want to get to the vendor in the shop.
You see, those are borders between two autonomic territories- Israel and the Palestinian national authority. You know, just like between the USA and Mexico, or just any damn country. Israeli citizens go through the same when they want to get to the Palestinian territory.
Those waiting lines exist only to check if those who cross the borders have illegal shipment on them (AKA guns bombs things like that. You can not blame Israel for doing this, and it is the same thing USA does on her borders).

[Figment]

So Canadians are corralled into the USA through tight cages?


Indeed.

http://psud2c.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/indeed-crab1.jpg?w=640

[MightyMan]

Of the five most populous Muslim-majority nations, four of them have elected female heads of state.
In fact, 45 percent of American Muslims in one poll said they see evolution as "the best explanation for the origin of human life on Earth," which isn't so shabby, considering only 24 percent of evangelical Christians believed the same. The percentage of Muslims embracing the scientific explanation for the origin of life was about the same as Americans as a whole (48 percent).
And historically, they have a hell of a track record. Science and math as we know it wouldn't even exist without Islam. The Islamic Golden Age caused a revolution in virtually every field of human thought, during which they fucking invented algebra -- and advanced everything from geography and exploration to the arts, architecture, philosophy, urban development, medicine and health.

The Muslims actually came pretty damn close to sharing all this brilliance with the truly ass-backward kingdoms of Christian Europe, since the Islamic caliphates blanketed every country they conquered with schools, libraries, public works and the most comprehensive system of social welfare on the planet. In fact, the case has been made that if the caliphates succeeded in conquering all of Europe an Italian Renaissance would have been unnecessary.

And the Muslims are the ones stuck in the past? Try again.

Granted, I'm a fan of Israel. More specifically, I'm a huge fan of krav maga probably the most awesome hand-to-hand combat. And for that, Israel has my support.

I think he means that there are many Muslim countries that are years behind the rest of the world as in their treatment to the rest of the world.
Basically, countries like Iran still tell their people that Islam is the prime religion, and that all those who are not Islamic are sinners. The same thing happened 600 years ago in the wars between the Islamic tribes and everyone else who was not Islamic by the way.
I agree, most of the Islamic countries are indeed in the same level of technological progress as western countries.
And yes, krav maga is indeed awesome.

Just wanted to say I support Israel with everything and always have. They are America's close ally and we will be side by side in an attack if Iran does not comply with everything going on.

PS. I love Iran on how they say they would demolish the US Navy, which right there makes them seem weak. After the loss of the RQ-170 and saying that they brought it down by "hacking" it basically makes them look like complete fools, how drones and GPS works they can't "Hack" it the way they claim.

Yep, most of the people consider Israel to be the 51st state of USA.
Now the problem is that, considering Israel is in the size of new jersey, you can imagine what a nuclear bomb will do to us. Basically we will be trapped here with no way to escape, and those that do not die from the explosion (1.5 KM radius) will die from the fallout, which will stretch all over Israel.
That is basically why we are so afraid of Iran acquiring a nuclear bomb.
Now from what I know, the military technology of Iran in any aspect other then rockets, is close to boy scouts technology, which is mostly slingshots and cardboard boxes (AKA their military tech is very old, and cannot compete with any kind of western military technology). What they do have is a GIGANTIC number of soldiers, and the worst part, is that they are suicidal.
They have a whole legion designed for the purpose of running into mine fields, and clearing the mines with their own bodies. Yes, it is pretty insane.
And yes, claiming that they can hack something which belongs to the USA is stupid of them.

So Canadians are corralled into the USA through tight cages?


Indeed.

http://psud2c.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/indeed-crab1.jpg?w=640

What I meant is that those cages are non-existent, so the only other option is NOTHING AT ALL.
I also like the picture, it has two things I like the most- top hats and crabs.
Indeed.

[Vreki]

So Canadians are corralled into the USA through tight cages?


They will be if they try to enter the USA from Mexico:

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/1750/juanosoriocustomsborder.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/824/juanosoriocustomsborder.jpg/)

Also bear in mind that they USA simply can not have as tight cages, since a large portion of their own citizens would be unable to squeeze through. :p

[Necronile]

MightMan
You basicly explained what I wanted to explain to people here in a different thread a while ago,but I couldn't due problems with my english.
Kol Hakavod :)

[Warborn]

THIS IS A DEBATE, I am supposed to counter your arguments, and you are supposed to counter mine. Being offended by what I say or whatever, is just stupid. The debate goes on until, one proves that the other is wrong, and it is not personal, that is all.

Except it isn't debate, I'm not offended, and you didn't counter anything. I presented some facts and you hand-waved it away as the media hating Israel and the UN being pro-Palestine and hating Israel so everyone is lying/skewing the truth. That isn't a debate. There is nothing I could say against Israel that you would accept as valid criticism.

[MightyMan]

Except it isn't debate, I'm not offended, and you didn't counter anything. I presented some facts and you hand-waved it away as the media hating Israel and the UN being pro-Palestine and hating Israel so everyone is lying/skewing the truth. That isn't a debate. There is nothing I could say against Israel that you would accept as valid criticism.

So: 1. look at the name of the sub-forum: "Political Debate Forum".
DEBATE
2. You see; The key word in valid criticism is valid.
Your criticism is not valid. WHY? Well, because it is criticizing false facts and not based.
See, each and every one of your arguments I have countered with FACTS.
What I said about media, is, that you think Israel is a big poopy villain because of the media. But I countered the poopiness with facts and logic.
Considering you have ignored both of them, real facts, those that you cannot possibly pull out of your ass, I would guess you did not read my replies well, or just skipped them entirely.
"UN being pro-Palestine and hating Israel" I'l admit it was wrong of me to say that, but I still backed it up with YET AGAIN facts.
Please come back when you decide to behave maturely.
Thank you.

MightMan
You basicly explained what I wanted to explain to people here in a different thread a while ago,but I couldn't due problems with my english.
Kol Hakavod :)

I am surprised to see that I am not the only Israeli human on the internet :)
Nehmad lirot she gam ata komunist ;)

[Warborn]

http://i.imgur.com/e1sw0.jpg

[MightyMan]

http://i.imgur.com/e1sw0.jpg

I give up. Fuck it.
You won the debate, now please don't post anything on this thread ever again, thanks! ya douche-poop


I will not have access to internet for the next 3 weeks (I am dead serious), so I will not be able to reply this thread. I will necro bump this thread after I have my Internets, and we will all have fun again!

[Warborn]

So: 1. look at the name of the sub-forum: "Political Debate Forum".
DEBATE

Me: *facts*
You: I REJECT YOUR FACTS BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE WITH MY VERSION OF REALITY

Debating!

[Warborn]

Except that Israel can't even stay within the confines of the lands taken from others and given to the soon-to-be Israelis. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories) Conquered peoples having their lands taken from them isn't such a new thing. We have plenty of reserves here in Canada, especially where I'm from, where little Anishnaabek enclaves exist as semi-sovereign groups.

But even that isn't enough for Israel. Settlements continue to be built, Palestinians displaced, and the ultra-zionists pandered to with total disregard for the rule of law. So it's not just a historical territorial thing, it's an ongoing, active seizure of land by Israel and the repression of Palestinian territories to such an extent that nearly half of them are unemployed, and live on only a couple dollars a day.

http://i.imgur.com/LG6dk.jpg

[Malorn]

Meh.

[Baneblade]

I'm pretty sure I didn't see any.

[ChipMHazard]

Lot of anti-semite bigots here.

There is, as with so many other topics, more than one side to consider.
I always find it odd when some people label those who criticise Isreal as anti-semite.
Then again those who support Israel shouldn't be labeled as pro-semite either.
Isreal isn't a theocracy, so...

Personally I don't feel any hate or love towards any country, including my own. I find it really hard to be surprised by any acts of cruelty, performed by any groups of people. Why? Because humans are human in nature, and unless the historical tomes I've read were all filled with lies I'm pretty sure that it' safe to conclude that we humans are right nutters.
I guess that leaves me with this surmise. Israel is just as ffed up as basicly every other country, all of them have skeletons in their respective closets, and just as unwilling to acknowledge it. :p

[Warborn]

Lot of anti-semite bigots here.

Yes, and all **** who are critical of the Israeli government are also anti-semitic and bigoted against themselves. Stunning logic.

Dr. Norman Finkelstein responds to the "Self hating ***" accusation - YouTube

[Figment]

Lot of anti-semite bigots here.

Just like we all hate America? :p

You're not really good at this criticaster analysis thing, are you? :rolleyes: :)




You also do realise that critique on Israel is not critique on ****, right?

And even if you would hate Israel - which people here do not, they just think they misbehave - then you still wouldn't hate **** per se. Just because **** are in charge of Israel doesn't mean you blame every *** for the actions of the government of Israel. Maybe you didn't know this Malorn, but not only isn't every *** in Israel part of its government, but there's also **** living in other nations.


So unless you can find one quote from any person in this thread that says that **** in general, regardless if they're israeli or not, are somehow evil or can find any other degenerating term, then I think you owe some people here an apology for insulting them with supposed bigotry and supposed anti-semitism.


Sounds fair enough?

[GODMOLLY]

Yep, most of the people consider Israel to be the 51st state of USA.
Now the problem is that, considering Israel is in the size of new jersey, you can imagine what a nuclear bomb will do to us. Basically we will be trapped here with no way to escape, and those that do not die from the explosion (1.5 KM radius) will die from the fallout, which will stretch all over Israel.
That is basically why we are so afraid of Iran acquiring a nuclear bomb.
Now from what I know, the military technology of Iran in any aspect other then rockets, is close to boy scouts technology, which is mostly slingshots and cardboard boxes (AKA their military tech is very old, and cannot compete with any kind of western military technology). What they do have is a GIGANTIC number of soldiers, and the worst part, is that they are suicidal.
They have a whole legion designed for the purpose of running into mine fields, and clearing the mines with their own bodies. Yes, it is pretty insane.
And yes, claiming that they can hack something which belongs to the USA is stupid of them.

Exactly, I'm a little drunk right now but I want someone to challenge me regarding Iran. It could be anything from the policy's towards Israel/US, or the "claims" of "hacking" the RQ-170 (my expertise). Open to all challengers motha fuckers.

Oh yeah, I want you on Team GOD. We were ranked #1 outfit on the last Planetside, along with MANY other games you can google us. All these other "outfits" and other bullshit things are all fuckin stupid they all suck and will always suck they are all about numbers and not skill. We have members who are from all walks such as myg0t, the only reason why you interest me is because I have an arab on my team and he is sometimes defensive and it would be hilarious to watch you two fight and argue all the time. I will do anything to have you join my team. team god.net I'm dead serious.

[Dart]

So I'm really not going to get into the whole Israel vs Palestine 'debate' because, as with the actual conflict, neither side is going to adjust their outlook regardless of what the other says. I actually travelled to Israel when I was 17 on business specifically relating to the conflict. My visit was for research purposes so I spent much of my time talking with the citizens of Israel and trying to better understand their mindset having grown up myself in a liberal middle class UK family.

Reading this thread I'm reminded of my overwhelming memory from the trip; the overly politicised, combative and (to a greater or lesser extent) the aggressive nature of everyone I spoke to as soon as anyone mentioned the country or anything relating to Palestinians. I remember being at a cafe with a slight older Israeli man. We were playing Chess and chatting when he asked me what I thought of Israel. Wanting to be polite I was listing things I considered complimentary until I apparently hit a conversational land-mine;

Me: ".... Yeah, I'd like to come back and travel across the whole country. Everything is so close here, it's like you could walk from one side of it to the other!"
His previously warm demeanour instantly changes. He gives me the thousand yard stare.
Him: "And that's a good thing, is it?!"

One thing the Op said caught my eye a few pages ago. "Your (sic) not trying to kill me with aggressive arguments, that's refreshing". I think that's an unintentional insight into the typical - at least in my experience - mindset of an Israeli on this subject. Even the most friendly and otherwise calm people seem to become aggressive, almost militaristic in their expressions and their attitude. Personally, coming from a country where apathy is considered 'cool', at 17 I found this fascinating, if a little intimidating!

[AshOck]

One thing the Op said caught my eye a few pages ago. "Your (sic) not trying to kill me with aggressive arguments, that's refreshing". I think that's an unintentional insight into the typical - at least in my experience - mindset of an Israeli on this subject. Even the most friendly and otherwise calm people seem to become aggressive, almost militaristic in their expressions and their attitude. Personally, coming from a country where apathy is considered 'cool', at 17 I found this fascinating, if a little intimidating!

Just the psychological effect of constantly feeling a threat to your security/existence I suppose.

Who's fault is that? We all take L's (the lose.) Then negotiate with the exact people that won, and settle on their terms. Palestinians never did that.

There is no good or bad guys in war. Just wins and losses. If Japan did not take that L during WW2 they would be glowing till this day.

Taking a L doesn't make you a loser. Simply gives you a chance to heal, befriend your enemy, and move the fuck on in life.

Couldn't have put it any better myself ;)

[Neurotoxin]

Lot of anti-semite bigots here.

Remember that anti-Semitic also applies to anti-Arab rhetoric. Zionists are anti-Semitic by nature.


There is no good or bad guys in war. Just wins and losses. If Japan did not take that L during WW2 they would be glowing till this day.

I disagree. All people have a right to self-determination within their own country. When it comes to imperialism, the aggressor is ALWAYS wrong. If one million soldiers from a foreign nation were deposited in Canada to wage war and try to take it over, how are they in the right in any way? How would the citizens of Canada be wrong to fight them off?

- - - - - -

That's it for now. Waiting for him to get back and bump this.

[Dart]

When it comes to imperialism, the aggressor is ALWAYS wrong.

Just to play devil's advocate, as a citizen of a former Imperial powerhouse; the world came an awfully long way under the rule of the British Empire.

[AshOck]

I disagree. All people have a right to self-determination within their own country. When it comes to imperialism, the aggressor is ALWAYS wrong. If one million soldiers from a foreign nation were deposited in Canada to wage war and try to take it over, how are they in the right in any way? How would the citizens of Canada be wrong to fight them off?


That's gotta be the worst analogy to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict I've ever heard.

Neither Palestinians nor **** had a country when the conflict began.
The land in dispute was a part of the Ottoman empire for more than six centuries
and after that under British mandate from 1923-1948.
When the British left both **** and Palestinians had well established communities living side by side
and there was no formal agreement of how to divide the land. Obviously, war ensued.

So you see, it wasn't 1 million foreign nation soldiers against 35 million Canadians in their own established country.
It was more like 600k **** without a country against 1 million Palestinians without a country + six other Arab nations as allies.

[Warborn]

Just to play devil's advocate, as a citizen of a former Imperial powerhouse; the world came an awfully long way under the rule of the British Empire.

The foundations of many of our formerly Imperial colonies are built on the mass graves of the indigenous populations. Imperialism royally fucked the situation the natives of North America, Africa, and elsewhere. As people who don't belong to those demographics we can kick back and relish in how nice it was for Britain or whoever to pave over some other nations with their own culture, but what if the Empire had cooperated and been something other than dominant and inhumane toward the people they conquered? Maybe now there'd be modern nations whose roots lie in the Cree, Lakota, Ojibwe, and similar peoples. Who is to say whether such a scenario would have been better or worse for the nations as a whole. Certainly it would have been better for the natives.

[Dart]

The foundations of many of our formerly Imperial colonies are built on the mass graves of the indigenous populations. Imperialism royally fucked the situation the natives of North America, Africa, and elsewhere. As people who don't belong to those demographics we can kick back and relish in how nice it was for Britain or whoever to pave over some other nations with their own culture, but what if the Empire had cooperated and been something other than dominant and inhumane toward the people they conquered? Maybe now there'd be modern nations whose roots lie in the Cree, Lakota, Ojibwe, and similar peoples. Who is to say whether such a scenario would have been better or worse for the nations as a whole. Certainly it would have been better for the natives.

I don't disagree with you but that's not human nature. Indistinctly humans do not cooperate with foreign peoples.

[Figment]

I wonder how things would have turned out if Jesus had been Venezuelan.

Depends. In which time period?

Option A: During Roman times: religion would have been trapped by indigenous tribes in the jungle. We'd probably still worship Wodan.

Option B: During Incan times: he'd probably have been sacrificed to Quetzecoatl or some other local deity, or at the very least enslaved for the good of the empire. And if not that, he'd probably DEMAND sacrifices done the RIGHT way. >.> We'd probably still worship Wodan.

Option C: After arrival and conquests by the Spanish? Depends, as a local or as European immigrant? As the first: Would be burned by inquisitors or die of some European flue if indigenous. Would otherwise reform the Spanish Pantheon paganism (neither Christianity nor Islam would have existed and **** would have remained a populace without a nation of their own after the Assyrians stormed in).


Any options I missed? :)

The foundations of many of our formerly Imperial colonies are built on the mass graves of the indigenous populations. Imperialism royally fucked the situation the natives of North America, Africa, and elsewhere. As people who don't belong to those demographics we can kick back and relish in how nice it was for Britain or whoever to pave over some other nations with their own culture, but what if the Empire had cooperated and been something other than dominant and inhumane toward the people they conquered? Maybe now there'd be modern nations whose roots lie in the Cree, Lakota, Ojibwe, and similar peoples. Who is to say whether such a scenario would have been better or worse for the nations as a whole. Certainly it would have been better for the natives.

Well you can look at how that worked between trade with Japan during the isolationist period. Only the Dutch were allowed to trade with Japan, because the Portuguese tried to convert the populace.

[Mutant]

Neither Palestinians nor **** had a country when the conflict began.
The land in dispute was a part of the Ottoman empire for more than six centuries
and after that under British mandate from 1923-1948.
When the British left both **** and Palestinians had well established communities living side by side
and there was no formal agreement of how to divide the land. Obviously, war ensued.



The problem largely comes from Britain promising the land to both Arabs and **** for helping them in WWI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon%E2%80%93Hussein_Correspondence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917

The British did not just leave, they were driven out by terrorists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

[Vreki]

Depends. In which time period?

Option A: During Roman times: religion would have been trapped by indigenous tribes in the jungle. We'd probably still worship Wodan.

Option B: During Incan times: he'd probably have been sacrificed to Quetzecoatl or some other local deity, or at the very least enslaved for the good of the empire. And if not that, he'd probably DEMAND sacrifices done the RIGHT way. >.> We'd probably still worship Wodan.

Option C: After arrival and conquests by the Spanish? Depends, as a local or as European immigrant? As the first: Would be burned by inquisitors or die of some European flue if indigenous. Would otherwise reform the Spanish Pantheon paganism (neither Christianity nor Islam would have existed and **** would have remained a populace without a nation of their own after the Assyrians stormed in).


Any options I missed? :)



E: The lack of Jesus would have little consequence, since another religion would just rise to the top and claim monopoly on the truth.
The history of the Christian church shows quite nicely how the message is adapted to the goals of those in power. It would have worked just the same if The Flying Spaghetti Monster had been the front figure.

[Accuser]

Perhaps you guys can clear up some conceptions I have about the situation:
I believe every human should be able to freely elect the leaders of their own local, regional, and national government. I also believe that restriction of this or other basic freedoms (many of which are listed in the U.S. Constitution, for reference) is grounds for violent revolution.

To the topic; I'm under the impression that some people in Israeli-controlled territory are under voting, movement, property ownership, congregation, or other restrictions of rights. This may or may not be the case. However, were I in such a situation, I'd gladly support any violent effort to subvert this condition, including terrorism against civilian targets.

So fill me in on the details. If I were born in Israeli controlled territory to the "wrong" parents, would I be preparing for a glorious death, bathed in the blood of my enemies... or have I got the facts wrong here?

[Figment]

Perhaps you guys can clear up some conceptions I have about the situation:
I believe every human should be able to freely elect the leaders of their own local, regional, and national government. I also believe that restriction of this or other basic freedoms (many of which are listed in the U.S. Constitution, for reference) is grounds for violent revolution.

Why aren't you revolting then?

You don't have any control over who you elect, you don't elect people if you lose an election, who then elect people using your vote to elect someone else using your vote and if you're in an area with a bigger populace, your vote counts for far less than anywhere else.

THIS IS DEMOCRACY!111!!1!1!!

Oh, no, it's not. Not by a longshot. Long live the illusion of democracy of the electoral system.

To the topic; I'm under the impression that some people in Israeli-controlled territory are under voting, movement, property ownership, congregation, or other restrictions of rights. This may or may not be the case. However, were I in such a situation, I'd gladly support any violent effort to subvert this condition, including terrorism against civilian targets.

So fill me in on the details. If I were born in Israeli controlled territory to the "wrong" parents, would I be preparing for a glorious death, bathed in the blood of my enemies... or have I got the facts wrong here?

Gladly terrorise civilian targets? I thought you wanted to revolt against the government?

[Warborn]

Access to the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories is heavily controlled. The goal is for the Israeli government to keep the Palestinians living in as poor of conditions as possible short of creating a humanitarian crisis. And if someone ever shoots a rocket into Israel settlements from your neighborhood, Israel will level your neighborhood with tanks and helicopters, even if it means a bunch of random civilians being killed in the process.

So yeah, the Palestinians live in a state where their movement, property, ownership, and other rights are routinely infringed upon. And some of them decide to become violent with Israel because of that. And then Israel says: "Look at how we are under attack by the Palestinians, now you see that we are the victims." And the world doesn't do anything, because the United States politicians court Jewish voters through supporting Israel no matter what they do.

[MightyMan]

YEY MY INTERNETS BE BACK!
Me: *facts*
You: I REJECT YOUR FACTS BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE WITH MY VERSION OF REALITY

Debating!

Correction: I REJECT YOU'R FACTS BECAUSE THEY ARE STUPIDLY WRONG AND IF ANY OF THOSE WOULD ACTUALLY BE TRUE I WOULD GLADLY AGREE WITH YOU- AGAINST ISRAEL OR NOT AGAINST IT, AND WOULD LET YOU TO SADOMISE ME WITH A STICK.
That picture was one of the most immature and stupid things I have seen.
LET ME CORRECT YOU
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3950/34188880.png
There we go, just as immature.

"nearly half of them are unemployed, and live on only a couple dollars a day."

1. Those who WANT to work, easily find it, working for an Arab or and Israeli, just like any Israeli citizen.
2. NO. Minimum salary for anyone in Israel- Palestinian or Israeli is about 1100 dollars. minimum per hour is about 6 dollars. Now, it may not sound like much, but in Israel it is more then enough to supply your everyday needs.
3.No, Palestinians are not given a lower salary, because employers who do that can be thrown to jail for up to five years because of that, and employers who actually do that are constantly on the news and are crucified by the media and the authorities, which needless to say, makes it rather uncommon.

Lot of anti-semite bigots here.

Sorry to say that man, but no, none of the arguments here were about **** but about Israel, which makes it illogical.


Oh yeah, I want you on Team GOD. We were ranked #1 outfit on the last Planetside, along with MANY other games you can google us. All these other "outfits" and other bullshit things are all fuckin stupid they all suck and will always suck they are all about numbers and not skill. We have members who are from all walks such as myg0t, the only reason why you interest me is because I have an arab on my team and he is sometimes defensive and it would be hilarious to watch you two fight and argue all the time. I will do anything to have you join my team. team god.net I'm dead serious.

I am flattered by the invitation, and would happily agree, but considering you were "a little drunk" at the time you may want to think it over. Just sayin'.

Just the psychological effect of constantly feeling a threat to your security/existence I suppose.

True, plus the fact that there are a lot people who constantly say that we are murderers/ hitlers/ plain assholes/ slavers/ Poopy bullies and it became so annoying, that most of us start scrubbing you off their back at
the slightest clue of accusation, even if you were not trying to get on their back from the beginning.

Remember that anti-Semitic also applies to anti-Arab rhetoric. Zionists are anti-Semitic by nature.
When will you finally understand that every Zionist is a hater of Palestine just as much as much as a patriot of the USA is a member of the KKK.
Zionist and anti-Palestinian are two completely different things that has nothing to do with each other.


When will you finally understand that every Zionist is a hater of Palestine just as much as a patriot of the USA is a member of the KKK.
Zionist and anti-Palestinian are two completely different things that has nothing to do with each other.

600k **** without a country against 1 million Palestinians without a country + six other Arab nations as allies.

Also known as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

I wonder how things would have turned out if Jesus had been Venezuelan.

He would be cool.

Access to the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories is heavily controlled. The goal is for the Israeli government to keep the Palestinians living in as poor of conditions as possible short of creating a humanitarian crisis. And if someone ever shoots a rocket into Israel settlements from your neighborhood, Israel will level your neighborhood with tanks and helicopters, even if it means a bunch of random civilians being killed in the process.

So yeah, the Palestinians live in a state where their movement, property, ownership, and other rights are routinely infringed upon. And some of them decide to become violent with Israel because of that. And then Israel says: "Look at how we are under attack by the Palestinians, now you see that we are the victims." And the world doesn't do anything, because the United States politicians court Jewish voters through supporting Israel no matter what they do.

I have referred to those accusations in the thread so many times that I am not even going to say anything about that.

BTW: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not the only thing that exists in Israel. Try talking about other themes too. Thank you.

[Warborn]

I don't have any interest in Israel beyond its ongoing apartheid.

http://i.imgur.com/JSd3k.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/WAGQp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/20LIp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/hSXEo.jpg

[MightyMan]

I don't have any interest in Israel beyond its ongoing apartheid.

http://i.imgur.com/JSd3k.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/WAGQp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/20LIp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/hSXEo.jpg

Why are you making me to do this?

First picture: I will not lie to you (because I am totally a poopy Palestinian hater and stuffs, ya know), this image is real. Now, before you sadomise me with a stick, let me tell you this: The guy on he picture is a Jewish extremists, the one who believes that god (at least the horribly mutated version of him) is better then logic (those are like less then 0.002% of the Jewish population). You see, those are the extremist jackasses who create the problem of the illegal settlements and who are constantly in an aggressiveness conflict with Palestinians. I hate them too. Most of us think that they are out of their minds and they need to be tied on a leash.
They are put in prison for such things all the time.
Saying their actions represent the Israeli ideology, or it's government is as stupid as saying that Obama is racist because there is KKK in the USA.

Second picture:
Yes this is a real picture that an Israeli soldier has uploaded to her facebook account with the phrase "the good old days" which was of course sarcastic.
Basically those were Palestinian prisoners (you have those too, but those are Canadians. I know it is hard to believe it, but such a thing exists not only in Israel) and she took a picture with them after they were arrested for assistance in terror actions. Needless to say this childish action was immediately disapproved by any Israeli with a head on his shoulders (including me), and the media crucified her. Sadly, she was not actually judged for anything because she has not disobeyed any law.
Why do I know this? because this was on the news for over an year in here.
BTW there are allot of those that were made by US soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq too, what can I say, dumb people are all over the world. If the actions of one dumb Israeli make me a nazi, I am truly sorry.

Third picture: thanks god for google images, saved me allot of time with this one: http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/188079.php

Fourth image: See Picture number one.

I don't have any interest in Israel beyond its ongoing apartheid.

This was not requested directly from you, but from all of those who take part in this thread. If that is the way you feel, don't state it like it will make you to grow a 3rd testicle because you sound like a total douche bag like that.

[TheDAWinz]

Why are you making me to do this?

First picture: I will not lie to you (because I am totally a poopy Palestinian hater and stuffs, ya know), this image is real. Now, before you sadomise me with a stick, let me tell you this: The guy on he picture is a Jewish extremists, the one who believes that god (at least the horribly mutated version of him) is better then logic (those are like less then 0.002% of the Jewish population). You see, those are the extremist jackasses who create the problem of the illegal settlements and who are constantly in an aggressiveness conflict with Palestinians. I hate them too. Most of us think that they are out of their minds and they need to be tied on a leash.
They are put in prison for such things all the time.
Saying their actions represent the Israeli ideology, or it's government is as stupid as saying that Obama is racist because there is KKK in the USA.

Second picture:
Yes this is a real picture that an Israeli soldier has uploaded to her facebook account with the phrase "the good old days" which was of course sarcastic.
Basically those were Palestinian prisoners (you have those too, but those are Canadians. I know it is hard to believe it, but such a thing exists not only in Israel) and she took a picture with them after they were arrested for assistance in terror actions. Needless to say this childish action was immediately disapproved by any Israeli with a head on his shoulders (including me), and the media crucified her. Sadly, she was not actually judged for anything because she has not disobeyed any law.
Why do I know this? because this was on the news for over an year in here.
BTW there are allot of those that were made by US soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq too, what can I say, dumb people are all over the world. If the actions of one dumb Israeli make me a nazi, I am truly sorry.

Third picture: thanks god for google images, saved me allot of time with this one: http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/188079.php

Fourth image: See Picture number one.


This was not requested directly from you, but from all of those who take part in this thread. If that is the way you feel, don't state it like it will make you to grow a 3rd testicle because you sound like a total douche bag like that.

I want a third testical :(

[The Loverator]

Gladly terrorise civilian targets? I thought you wanted to revolt against the government?


But how?
If you have no Offer how, don't lament over what Solutions someone is going to find. ;)

Jeah, sounds e~eevil, true? But hey, nobody has a Monopole on Violence. " No~body ".


Some People act overstrained with how to think over the following Sentence, but...

'That' does count for Governments, "TOO" ... ... even a certain Government who rules in Israel. ;)



I can only repeat myself over and over: "One Day, it may "bangs" loud... ",
and then, "everyone" is going to whine, to cry - and to complain... ...




And then: No "sane" Person in the World will act shocked or heartstricken...

Why? Because everyone knew, someday, m~aaaybe all the Terror, Violence and Crimes towards the Palestinian People and everyone else who gets insulted and/or assaulted by Fascists who try to hide behind the Flag and Nation of Israel,

m~aaaybe this will let follow a severe, ugly Punishment by some hatefilled Fanatics,
who came from somewhere, got a Weapon of Mass Destruction from somewhere,

and have somehow managed to set it up near enough to create massive Damage in Israel.



And then, "People like me" ( <--- lawl i like that stupid Line ) will say:

" See? We told you, Year's long! We even got insulted as Na*i's sometimes... !"



And then, nothing is important. Nothing is important - if someone is guilty or not - if someone is evil or not - if "some Site is more wrong or right than the other",

then, only one thing Matters:

And that is, that endless, infinite Warmongering, Violence, ugly Crimes, Aggression and "Human Rancidness" have resulted in the probably all expected Consequence: A rare, unsightly Peak of Escalation...


And then, all the stupid People will try to "pop up again", trying to whine loudly with the boring Line "aka" :
" But we/Israel/who'ever was only always defending themself/ourselves/"yxz" ... !"


And People like me will respone:

" N~o' ... ... you are now whining and complaining because 'You' thought it would always continue this Way, without "the other Site" or who'ever successfully fighting back and the Violence always flowing only in One Direction for the most Part,

because you thought that "one Side" is superior and would never get ugly Consequences at all no Matter how much Calamity and negative Karma would get spread... !"



Well, of Course i would or WILL be in Cover before saying this, if you understand... ;)


When i say this, i want to emphasize that this Scenario written from my Imagination,

well, umm - i expect it "someday - or Never " - to happen.
I write this only for the annoying " What if it would "-Case/Possibility.



So that -- for the rare Case that it interests someone -- someone/everyone here can read how i would react.

By the Way, i want to say this, too,
we may ALL know this very well - but in this kind of ugly Conflict, it's best to stay out,

and take no Site for whatever the Reason, ever...


Because it just isn't important at all of "who started it", or "who is right and who is wrong",

in the End - it only counts that EVERYONE is wrong" who is and act's just like an A**ho** ... ... ... and is nothing but a sore Idiot who wants to see many People on one Side angered, insulted, "domineered" by who'ever the pathetic Bully would be,


and well, umm - " Sorry ". The stronger Site is always the one more responsible and in the wrong, if she doesn't stop the Conflict with as much Effort as possible.

Jeah, s~ooo Sorry, or not? "Israel" doesn't look to well in this and will likely never be.



I could continue this Post for annoyingly many Line's, but everything important is said.

For "whoever" is trying to defend a Government who is obviously acting like a Terrorist-Organisation,
or is in other Word's, "satisfied" as how Things are and wants everything to continue this Way,
'cause he or she doesn't like Muslim People or Stuff, - i advise to pray v~eeery much with all his or her's spiritual Strength...


That " Godfather Coincidence " is not in the Mood to be a lousy Bi*** - and will never be.

Like in the Mood of some really dangerous and pissed off People to get one or several, really dangerous Weapon's into their Hands and successful set them up in the Near of the Country Borderline or Israel - or even within the Country.


'cause this People -- well can all guess -- have no Fear, give a Sh** on their own Life's -- fear no Revenge or what'so'ever -- and are so freakin' filled up with Hatred, that "reasoning" with them is just as impossible that it is with the People from the israeli Government.



We can "just" sit there and hope that no One will ever set up a really h~uge "Bang",
'cause we all know - that then, the "Warmonger-Bit**es" will pop up...

And try to annoy and pester us for the next XX Year's to start a third WorldWar,
this Time against the arabian World and maybe some other People...



One of these " Bi***s " will hopefully not get elected as the next american President...
I hope for Obama, again. He hasn't even repaired most of the Damage that Bush has fabricated...


... ... and there is already the next Imbecil on the Start and trying to make Things worse, again.




greetings, LV. :wave:

[MightyMan]

@TheDAWinz:
NO. DO YOU EVEN KNOW HOW MUCH POOR AFRICAN KIDS WORK IN THE FACTORY TO MAKE EXTRA TESTICLES? DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH TIME IT TAKES? DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THEY SUFFER, JUST TO MAKE ONE TESTICLE? BUT NO. YOU JUST WANT ONE? YOU JUST WANT ONE!
THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE REALLY IN NEED OF A 3RD TESTICLE, SUCH AS THOSE WHO'ES BALLS GOT WRAPPED INSIDE THEM AFTER A KICK FROM THEIR GIRLFRIEND. OR THOSE WHO'ES BALLS GOT PENETRATED FROM A BEAR ATTACK.
DO YOU KNOW HOW LOW IS THE TESTICLE SUPPLY IN THE WORLD FOR THOSE KIND OF CASES. DO YOU EVEN KNOW? BUT NO. HE JUST WANTS ONE!
DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH LIVES YOU HAVE JUST RUINED? THOSE WHO REALLY NEEDED ONE WOULD RECYCLE THEIRS AFTER THEIR DEATHS. YOU'R TESTICLE WOULD JUST MELT INSIDE YOUR BALLS SACK BECAUSE OF THE EXCESS TESTICLE AND GET ABSORBED INTO YOUR BLADDER. BLADDER!
YOU HAVE JUST RUINED THE LIVES OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE OVER THE GENERATIONS. HOW CAN YOU LIVE WITH YOU'R SELF HOW?! HOW???????????????????????????????????
YOU EGOTISTIC JACKASS. I HATE YOU! I HATE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Trololos aside:
@The Loverator:
Nope. Nope nope nope nope. NOPE. I'm not even going to reply that.
Have fun with you'r ignorant life!

[Warborn]

Why are you making me to do this?

I didn't.

First picture: I will not lie to you (because I am totally a poopy Palestinian hater and stuffs, ya know), this image is real. Now, before you sadomise me with a stick, let me tell you this: The guy on he picture is a Jewish extremists, the one who believes that god (at least the horribly mutated version of him) is better then logic (those are like less then 0.002% of the Jewish population). You see, those are the extremist jackasses who create the problem of the illegal settlements and who are constantly in an aggressiveness conflict with Palestinians. I hate them too. Most of us think that they are out of their minds and they need to be tied on a leash.
They are put in prison for such things all the time.
Saying their actions represent the Israeli ideology, or it's government is as stupid as saying that Obama is racist because there is KKK in the USA.

If the KKK goes out and does this kind of stuff to people in the USA they get picked up by the police. There's a difference between having some kind of hardline assholes in the country, and tolerating said assholes' bullshit. Once upon a time the KKK, like the settlers, were able to get away with doing illegal stuff as well because the authorities didn't care or even tacitly condoned their activities. But then people decided that maybe treating dark-skinned Americans like shit wasn't such a cool thing to do.

Second picture:
Yes this is a real picture that an Israeli soldier has uploaded to her facebook account with the phrase "the good old days" which was of course sarcastic.
Basically those were Palestinian prisoners (you have those too, but those are Canadians. I know it is hard to believe it, but such a thing exists not only in Israel) and she took a picture with them after they were arrested for assistance in terror actions. Needless to say this childish action was immediately disapproved by any Israeli with a head on his shoulders (including me), and the media crucified her. Sadly, she was not actually judged for anything because she has not disobeyed any law.
Why do I know this? because this was on the news for over an year in here.
BTW there are allot of those that were made by US soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq too, what can I say, dumb people are all over the world. If the actions of one dumb Israeli make me a nazi, I am truly sorry.

I didn't call you a Nazi.

When these pictures came out the general consensus seemed to be, by Palestinians, that this was typical and indicative of the sort of treatment they endure on a regular basis. This woman was dumb enough to post pictures of it on public space, but how many more took similar or worse pictures and kept them private? It's not about this former IDF soldier, it's about the problem this represents as a whole.

And the government/military simply expressing their disapproval of the pictures and taking no steps to curb this kind of behaviour at all doesn't really amount to anything.

Third picture: thanks god for google images, saved me allot of time with this one: http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/188079.php

So the cutting-edge reporting team at TheJawaReport.com aren't convinced the picture is legit, although they have no proof to the contrary, they just think it looks suspicious. I think you need to reconsider what you consider a valuable source of information. It's not like this would be the first missile fired at Palestinian children. Hundreds of children have been killed or wounded by Israeli forces in the last decade.

This was not requested directly from you, but from all of those who take part in this thread. If that is the way you feel, don't state it like it will make you to grow a 3rd testicle because you sound like a total douche bag like that.

Why would that make me sound like a douche bag? I'm not Jewish and I live across the world from Israel. Would you say you are particularly interested in Canada? Unless you have relatives here or if there are some of our own crimes (like how we treat our First Nations population) have caught your eye, why would you? It's not meant to be offensive, it's just that Israel is not very significant to non-**** except for how it interacts with the Palestinians and, I guess, the arabs at large.

[Neurotoxin]

I wish I could find the photo of the Palestinian boy tied to the hood of an Israeli jeep. Oh wait: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0424-03.htm Funny thing in that article, they are being treated this way as they protest Israel worming its territory into remaining Palestinian land, back in 2004. Just like in America, the people coming from a position of authority or power are often overzealous and brutal in their methods of trying to "control" the people they are oppressing.

Seriously though, MightyMan, go get me a photograph of an IDF poster on the Palestine side of the Apartheid walls. Make sure a soldier sees you take the picture. Photograph the soldier too. It may be a bit of a cultural experience for you, or you might be shot dead, it'll be an adventure either way.

[MightyMan]

I didn't.



If the KKK goes out and does this kind of stuff to people in the USA they get picked up by the police. There's a difference between having some kind of hardline assholes in the country, and tolerating said assholes' bullshit. Once upon a time the KKK, like the settlers, were able to get away with doing illegal stuff as well because the authorities didn't care or even tacitly condoned their activities. But then people decided that maybe treating dark-skinned Americans like shit wasn't such a cool thing to do.



I didn't call you a Nazi.

When these pictures came out the general consensus seemed to be, by Palestinians, that this was typical and indicative of the sort of treatment they endure on a regular basis. This woman was dumb enough to post pictures of it on public space, but how many more took similar or worse pictures and kept them private? It's not about this former IDF soldier, it's about the problem this represents as a whole.

And the government/military simply expressing their disapproval of the pictures and taking no steps to curb this kind of behaviour at all doesn't really amount to anything.



So the cutting-edge reporting team at TheJawaReport.com aren't convinced the picture is legit, although they have no proof to the contrary, they just think it looks suspicious. I think you need to reconsider what you consider a valuable source of information. It's not like this would be the first missile fired at Palestinian children. Hundreds of children have been killed or wounded by Israeli forces in the last decade.



Why would that make me sound like a douche bag? I'm not Jewish and I live across the world from Israel. Would you say you are particularly interested in Canada? Unless you have relatives here or if there are some of our own crimes (like how we treat our First Nations population) have caught your eye, why would you? It's not meant to be offensive, it's just that Israel is not very significant to non-**** except for how it interacts with the Palestinians and, I guess, the arabs at large.

1. Those assholes do get picked off by the police.

2. Yes I am completely aware that you have not called me a nazi. What I meant is that you are trying to imply that one mans action represent the actions of all of us. I have expressed my self in a dumb way, and thus I am sorry. And this is not typical behavior. Perhaps a very uncommon one.
Also, what else can they do but expressing their disapproval? She really did not violate any law at all. The same thing would happened in Canada if such did would occur.
3. Clearly you have not read the article. They have cutting evidence that the picture is fake. Try actually reading the article until the end.

About your non-interest in Israel. I'l have to agree with you. If not for the shitstorms we would be on the news only like only 5% of the time (probably less) we are now. But who would not. I can't remember the last time I heard about Canada on the news.

Also, I am perfectly aware that this was not supposed to be offensive. A nicer way of saying the things would be better. "I am sorry but in my opinion the Israeli occupation and stuffs is the most important theme right now, and thus I would much rather prefer to concentrate on it only.
Of course you don't have to say it like an A class gentleman and it could be much shorter, but your way of expressing it reminded me of the term "fuck off". It's probably just me though. So yeh another broken way of expression by me. Sorry.

I wish I could find the photo of the Palestinian boy tied to the hood of an Israeli jeep. Oh wait: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0424-03.htm Funny thing in that article, they are being treated this way as they protest Israel worming its territory into remaining Palestinian land, back in 2004. Just like in America, the people coming from a position of authority or power are often overzealous and brutal in their methods of trying to "control" the people they are oppressing.

Seriously though, MightyMan, go get me a photograph of an IDF poster on the Palestine side of the Apartheid walls. Make sure a soldier sees you take the picture. Photograph the soldier too. It may be a bit of a cultural experience for you, or you might be shot dead, it'll be an adventure either way.

First paragraph: Yes it happened. Yes they were sent to prison. No it does not happen all the time and does not represent a common way of controlling such protests. No, the fact that it is a protest does not mean it is against an actual issue. If it would be, Israels balls would be cut off by the UN right away. In all of the history of the country, Palestinian territories were never taken by the government or any kind of sane citizen. The only one who try to claim those lands are individuals from the more extremist orthodox *** who are a very little per cent of the Jewish population (less the 0.001%) in Israel. They build illegal settlements, and those are constantly removed by the Israeli government. So it is an actual issue, but saying that it is done by Israelis in common is not true.

Second paragraph:
You have already talked about this, and I have already replied this.
I think it is like on the second or 3rd page.
What happened? Running out of accusations?

[Neurotoxin]

If everyone was their own cousin, I'd be a doctor AND a lawyer. Go do it yourself, don't defer to your relative's experience. Post the pictures you take, too.

If the ultra-Orthodox are the ones causing all the trouble, do something about it, don't maintain an Apartheid and say "well I'm not the one doing it so its okay, plus I've been taught they they are brutal and unreasonable."


Do you know WHY peace talks failed and no longer go on? I'd like to hear your side of it, what you've heard, what you know about it. Refer me to where you've already posted about this if you have.

[TheDAWinz]

I hate ignorant fucks who like to bash other people's countries while thinking its peaches and cream in their own.

[andehh]

I think Israel's pretty awesome. It's an island of modern society sitting in a sea of culture that is about 600 years behind the rest of the world.

Couldn't agree more, credit to Israel! Not only 600 years behind the rest of us...but who want to drag us back 600 years...

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Warborn]

I hate ignorant fucks who like to bash other people's countries while thinking its peaches and cream in their own.

It's a thread about Israel. We're talking about issues related to Israel in it. Why is this difficult to understand?

[TheDAWinz]

It's a thread about Israel. We're talking about issues related to Israel in it. Why is this difficult to understand?

Making and pulling false info is difficult to understand.

[Warborn]

Making and pulling false info is difficult to understand.

You need to stop posting while high.

2. Yes I am completely aware that you have not called me a nazi. What I meant is that you are trying to imply that one mans action represent the actions of all of us. I have expressed my self in a dumb way, and thus I am sorry. And this is not typical behavior. Perhaps a very uncommon one.
Also, what else can they do but expressing their disapproval? She really did not violate any law at all. The same thing would happened in Canada if such did would occur.

3. Clearly you have not read the article. They have cutting evidence that the picture is fake. Try actually reading the article until the end.

About your non-interest in Israel. I'l have to agree with you. If not for the shitstorms we would be on the news only like only 5% of the time (probably less) we are now. But who would not. I can't remember the last time I heard about Canada on the news.

Also, I am perfectly aware that this was not supposed to be offensive. A nicer way of saying the things would be better. "I am sorry but in my opinion the Israeli occupation and stuffs is the most important theme right now, and thus I would much rather prefer to concentrate on it only.
Of course you don't have to say it like an A class gentleman and it could be much shorter, but your way of expressing it reminded me of the term "fuck off". It's probably just me though. So yeh another broken way of expression by me. Sorry.

"I'm not 100% sure it's fake, but I definitely lean that way. Why? The odds, that's all. It's an extraordinary claim to say you captured a photo of a bomb milliseconds before it hits with such high resolution and clarity. And, in my mind, extraordinary claims take extraordinary evidence."
- The Jawa Report's famed reporter, "Rusty Shackleford, PhD" (that's not a real person by the way, it's from the show King of the Hill)

The IDF defends settlers and their homes despite their activity being a significant part of the tension between the Palestinians and Israelis, and the settlements themselves are of course considered illegal by the international community. Great, some people disapproved of an IDF soldier humiliating Palestinian prisoners. Amazing, sometimes some Jewish extremists might get picked up by the police for assaulting Palestinian women. The bottom line is that the state is currently engaged in illegal activity, and is using its military to defend said illegal activities. The small shit, like settlers jeering at a recently evicted Palestinian woman, are just indicative of the larger issue. And that is, of course, the complete disregard for the Palestinians, their lands, and the international law which says they are Palestinian lands.

Also, have you seen Louis Theroux's BBC documentary, The Ultra Zionists? I thought it was a quite interesting look at the whole settlement situation.

[MightyMan]

You need to stop posting while high.



"I'm not 100% sure it's fake, but I definitely lean that way. Why? The odds, that's all. It's an extraordinary claim to say you captured a photo of a bomb milliseconds before it hits with such high resolution and clarity. And, in my mind, extraordinary claims take extraordinary evidence."
- The Jawa Report's famed reporter, "Rusty Shackleford, PhD" (that's not a real person by the way, it's from the show King of the Hill)

The IDF defends settlers and their homes despite their activity being a significant part of the tension between the Palestinians and Israelis, and the settlements themselves are of course considered illegal by the international community. Great, some people disapproved of an IDF soldier humiliating Palestinian prisoners. Amazing, sometimes some Jewish extremists might get picked up by the police for assaulting Palestinian women. The bottom line is that the state is currently engaged in illegal activity, and is using its military to defend said illegal activities. The small shit, like settlers jeering at a recently evicted Palestinian woman, are just indicative of the larger issue. And that is, of course, the complete disregard for the Palestinians, their lands, and the international law which says they are Palestinian lands.

Also, have you seen Louis Theroux's BBC documentary, The Ultra Zionists? I thought it was a quite interesting look at the whole settlement situation.

"I'm a military Explosive Ordnace Disposal technician. I've seen lots of bomb and lots of bombs being dropped (both in person and in testing videos). I concur with the previous poster about this photo being of a GBU (Guided Bomb Unit). Further, it appears to be a package installed on a 500lb Mk82 bomb. Once the GBU is installed on a particular bomb it gains the appropriate digits 10, 12 etc. I'd have to look at tech data to tell you precisely what the nomenclature of the pictured bomb is, but I can tell you that this picture is bogus. For the fins to still be folded the bomb would have to have just been dropped. You'd still be able to see the plane that dropped it. This would however account for the clarity of the image. A bomb dropped on a combat target, even one dropped at very low altitude, would still be blurred. We're talking about jet fighters here, not biplanes. I've watched test video taken by scientists with high speed cameras designed for the purpose of studying bomb impacts. Even their film comes out blurred sometimes. Also, the scale is definitely off as yet another commenter mentioned. The blast in other fauxtoes is yet another fakery. The apparent blast seat is not in line with impact point you would expect from the previous picture. The blast itself does not look right for a heavy cased bomb either. It looks very much like the result you would get from a bare charge placed on the surface. Finally, as another astute commenter pointed out, neither the fauxtographer or his subjects would have been likely to survive the blast in the image. The blast wave would have knocked them all off their feet and caused serious injuries, but not before they had all been ripped to shreds by primary and secondary fragmentation. In spite of what Hollywood (and Paliwood) would have you believe, it is not possible to outrun a high order explosion."

^The photographer WOULD DIE. But as you may know, he is still alive.

"Look at the feet. the man in the green shirt and the person in the grey sweats does not have feet"

Also: Some of the people there appear in several "bombing pictures".
Also, If you have ever used a camera, you would know that the slightest move of those who you take a picture of, would get blurred on the pic. Now, yes he probably had a professional camera, but the missile would move at a speed of about 500 meters per second. Needless to say, it would not be as clear as it is on the picture.
Can we stop talking about this picture now?

The IDF does defend settlers and their homes. Why? Because they are often attacked by Palestinians. Palestinians are also often attacked by settlers. Thus Palestinians are defended too. Aggressors from both sides get arrested.
And if you ask, why does the IDF defend them, well: The police cannot operate in those territories, and even though they violate the law, the authorities have to protect their health as human beings (they protect the health of Palestinians too). The same thing would happen in any other sane country of the world at other occasions too.
Also: the offenders of those conflicts ALWAYS get picked up by the police. Why? Because it is the police (in those territories the IDF can arrest violators of law too). If they come back to the police station from an aggressive conflict with no one arrested it would arise suspicion to say the least, so the possibility of the police being in favor of the settlers seems very low.
Also, where the hell did you hear about the IDF defending the settlers?
BTW: Settlements that are considered illegal are first evacuated and then demolished. There was a big story like 3 months ago one of the biggest illegal settlement called "ulpana hill", where About 1000 settlers were evacuated and the buildings were completely demolished. Why because those were Palestinian territories. Saying that it is common and that it is not enforced is ridiculous.

If everyone was their own cousin, I'd be a doctor AND a lawyer. Go do it yourself, don't defer to your relative's experience. Post the pictures you take, too.

If the ultra-Orthodox are the ones causing all the trouble, do something about it, don't maintain an Apartheid and say "well I'm not the one doing it so its okay, plus I've been taught they they are brutal and unreasonable."


Do you know WHY peace talks failed and no longer go on? I'd like to hear your side of it, what you've heard, what you know about it. Refer me to where you've already posted about this if you have.

Sigh. No I can't go there because of WORK. It exists, ya know.
If you want videos or pictures of the walls from the Palestinian side just search it on Google or Youtub, I assure you that the one who took pictures were not shot, because you can see the damn pictures.
Stop saying that there is nothing done about those assholes, it is ludicrous.
No I am not going to become a vigilante because of a problem that is already controlled by the authorities, as in, they hold those jackasses on a very short leash anyway.

Why do the peace talks fail? Both sides have ridiculous demands from each other, and each time they disagree to follow those terms thus the talks end.
Both the Israeli and the Palestinian sides are guilty of this. What can I say, politics....

[Warborn]

"I'm a military Explosive Ordnace Disposal technician. I've seen lots of bomb and lots of bombs being dropped (both in person and in testing videos). I concur with the previous poster about this photo being of a GBU (Guided Bomb Unit). Further, it appears to be a package installed on a 500lb Mk82 bomb. Once the GBU is installed on a particular bomb it gains the appropriate digits 10, 12 etc. I'd have to look at tech data to tell you precisely what the nomenclature of the pictured bomb is, but I can tell you that this picture is bogus."

[citation needed]

"Look at the feet. the man in the green shirt and the person in the grey sweats does not have feet"

They're running. You can see their legs quite clearly.

Can we stop talking about this picture now?

You're the one who linked to the shitty no-name website that doesn't have any actual evidence of anything. And who really cares, anyway? Would that picture being fake mean that no Palestinian civilians ever get nearly killed by Israeli missiles?

The IDF does defend settlers and their homes. Why? Because they are often attacked by Palestinians. Palestinians are also often attacked by settlers. Thus Palestinians are defended too. Aggressors from both sides get arrested.

So an Israeli illegally moves into a Palestinian neighbourhood after the building's former owners are either paid to leave or forcibly evicted, and then they complain about how they're not safe because the Palestinians try to attack them. You seriously do not see the problem here? Maybe if the settlers don't want to get attacked they should stop settling in the occupied Palestinian territories. Someone get Netanyahu on the horn, we've really cracked the case with this one.

[Necronile]

[citation needed]



They're running. You can see their legs quite clearly.



You're the one who linked to the shitty no-name website that doesn't have any actual evidence of anything. And who really cares, anyway? Would that picture being fake mean that no Palestinian civilians ever get nearly killed by Israeli missiles?



So an Israeli illegally moves into a Palestinian neighbourhood after the building's former owners are either paid to leave or forcibly evicted, and then they complain about how they're not safe because the Palestinians try to attack them. You seriously do not see the problem here? Maybe if the settlers don't want to get attacked they should stop settling in the occupied Palestinian territories. Someone get Netanyahu on the horn, we've really cracked the case with this one.

You dont understand one thing...
They are orthodox ****!,they believe that those territories are part of Israel (They also believe jordan and sryia are part of israel too).
And we all know religous people are kinda crazy when you try to interfere with their faith.

[Warborn]

Also, if you want to stop talking about Palestinians we could actually start talking about the apparent upswing in anti-African sentiment (http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/tel-aviv-hospital-bars-african-migrants-from-visiting-patients-citing-health-concerns-1.448292).

But don't worry guys, they'll even have special camps where African migrants can be concentrated into one area (http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/discipline-and-punish-blueprint-for-migrant-incarceration-1.448674?block=true).

You dont understand one thing...
They are orthodox ****!,they believe that those territories are part of Israel (They also believe jordan and sryia are part of israel too).
And we all know religous people are kinda crazy when you try to interfere with their faith.

I am aware of this, but words in a stupid old book about land ownership are irrelevant. They don't change the fact that their activities are recognized as illegal by the international community.

[ItsTheSheppy]

One could even get a feeling of how fucked up and wrong that whole part of the world is by watching something as innocuous as An Idiot Abroad. People look at the Berlin wall as this great insult to human dignity, ignoring the fact that the Palestinians are living that right now.

It's chancy thought because you know that if the Israelis weren't vigilant, the arab nations would gladly crush them at the earliest opportunity, as they've tried before.

Religions. It all comes down to dumbshit religions. It'll end us if we don't end it.

[MightyMan]

[citation needed]



They're running. You can see their legs quite clearly.



You're the one who linked to the shitty no-name website that doesn't have any actual evidence of anything. And who really cares, anyway? Would that picture being fake mean that no Palestinian civilians ever get nearly killed by Israeli missiles?



So an Israeli illegally moves into a Palestinian neighbourhood after the building's former owners are either paid to leave or forcibly evicted, and then they complain about how they're not safe because the Palestinians try to attack them. You seriously do not see the problem here? Maybe if the settlers don't want to get attacked they should stop settling in the occupied Palestinian territories. Someone get Netanyahu on the horn, we've really cracked the case with this one.

So. Yes. The facts that photographer would die and that the rocket is fake is true (the rocket is to clear; from personal experience. Unless the rocket was used as a blunt weapon, or had an explosion radius of 1 meter he would die). On the other hand, maybe they were running from a tank or something which did not feet into the picture. Maybe there were illegal settlers shooting at them at the time. Maybe it was not in Israel at all. Who the hell knows?
Shit site or no, logic still wins this argument.

"Would that picture being fake mean that no Palestinian civilians ever get nearly killed by Israeli missiles?"
I'd admit here. Civilians DO get killed by missiles. Like once every year. If they ignore the warning from the IDF before the bombing. If civilian targets are near a place where the bombing cannot be announced, there is no bombing. There is head-on approach. Why do I know that? If they would not announce the bombing beforehand the civilian casualties really would reach thousands of people over the years. Also the IDF gladly shouts it every time there is a casualty to look like an angel.
When such civilian casualty does occur, other Palestinians march with the grave all over their territory to show how bad and demonic their oppressor is, a thing which is shown all over both Israeli news and Palestinian news like once every~ year, with no such occasion being missed, to show the great sins of the satan. And because it is profitable for the news. Half of those have been proved to be fake. What can I say. As much as I am not happy with this (I am not), there is nothing more that could possibly be done to prevent those occasion, other then no attacking at all, in which case terrorism would flourish all over the place.

"So an Israeli (illegal settler please) illegally moves into a Palestinian neighbourhood after the building's former owners are either paid to leave or forcibly evicted"

There are so many wrong things with this. Settlers do not illegally move into Palestinian houses. They build their own on a free territory. Palestinians have no reason to move out of their houses because unlike what you may think, Palestinians are not squishy snails and can defend themselves, thus such an encounter would be just as dangerous for the settlers. Also, if the owner is paid to leave then what is wrong with that? It is called buying property.
Settlers do not complain about them not being being safe. It is the authorities duty to stop such conflicts.
Think about it: at the occasion of gang wars, the police does not wait for the gangs to kill each other and then comes afterwards to collect the bodies. Instead, the police breaks in, as fast as it can, and tries to stop it and arrest the participants without using lethal force. While the
settler-Palestinian conflicts do not go up to that level (replace pistols with rocks and shouting), the authorities still have to stop those conflicts because they are fully aggressive.
And getting Netanyahu on the horn would not help because he is a total donkey. No one likes him. Or, at least 70% of us don't like him. He is a liar and tells everyone only what they want to hear, without him actually doing anything. Thanks god the elections are near.

Also, if you want to stop talking about Palestinians we could actually start talking about the apparent upswing in anti-African sentiment (http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/tel-aviv-hospital-bars-african-migrants-from-visiting-patients-citing-health-concerns-1.448292).

But don't worry guys, they'll even have special camps where African migrants can be concentrated into one area (http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/discipline-and-punish-blueprint-for-migrant-incarceration-1.448674?block=true).



I am aware of this, but words in a stupid old book about land ownership are irrelevant. They don't change the fact that their activities are recognized as illegal by the international community.

So what is wrong with you'r argument about the Africans?
Mostly that they are not immigrants. They are illegal immigrants. It is not racial hate, but enforcing the borders.
Same thing goes to the camps. The camps in which they stay before they are deported to their original country. Instead of being homeless. Legal African immigrants (Ethiopia and Yemen) leave here peacefully since 1950.
The same thing happens in most of the other countries in the world.
Congrats on making an issue out of nothing.
Though I do agree that the hospital thing went to far.

"words in a stupid old book about land ownership are irrelevant. They don't change the fact that their activities are recognized as illegal by the international community"

Agreed. That is why I am an atheist. To me the bible seems mostly like bullshit. That counts the millions who prayed to god to save them, right before the were burnt alive in the gas chambers.

One could even get a feeling of how fucked up and wrong that whole part of the world is by watching something as innocuous as An Idiot Abroad. People look at the Berlin wall as this great insult to human dignity, ignoring the fact that the Palestinians are living that right now.

It's chancy thought because you know that if the Israelis weren't vigilant, the arab nations would gladly crush them at the earliest opportunity, as they've tried before.

Religions. It all comes down to dumbshit religions. It'll end us if we don't end it.

"People look at the Berlin wall as this great insult to human dignity, ignoring the fact that the Palestinians are living that right now."
Not really. Those are two different "countries" (they even have their own representatives in the Olympiad) under completely different rule. The rate of smuggling and illegal board crossing was way to high to leave the borders naked. Ever since the walls were built such cases have decreased to about a fifth of what was before that. It is like if the USA did the same thing on the border with Mexico.
I'l agree with you on the other subjects though. Religions are dumbshit indeed.

[Neurotoxin]

Berlin wall

Funny thing is that the conditions were already bad in east Berlin before the World War era, so putting up a wall didn't worsen the area. The workers in East Berlin were well-trained, and were being taken care of better than before the wall went up. When the wall came down, workers in the East divisions were better trained and educated, but would be exploited the same as any other worker, and it is cited that the East division workers were responsible for German innovation and economic growth after the wall came down.

I wouldn't consider the apartheid to be anything close to East/West Berlin. Berlin was a matter of two opposing ideologies represented by two super-powers of the time. Israel and USA vs Palestine is much more of a one-sided oppression, in the form of apartheid.

Israel would not be "wiped out" by Arab nation if it is a one-state that gives fair rights and liberties to all citizens, Jewish or Muslim or Christian or otherwise, Arab or *** or anything else. It would make no sense to wipe out a nation that is peaceful and doesn't oppress its citizens, and doesn't have the goal of becoming a 100% Jewish state.

-

Peace talks broke down in Israel because the PLO was declared the representatives of the Palestinian people (not by Israel), despite being one of many organizations struggling for peace. It would be like if America was invaded, and the Tea Party was selected to represent all American citizens in the now-occupied country.

After PLO was declared the representative of Palestinian people, it was easy to pick a few things about them that Israeli government didn't approve, and then declare that they would not conduct any more peace talks with the only group that is recognized as representing Palestinians. Current leadership is Israel refuses to try to make peace with a group that all Palestinians don't even feel represent them or their ideals. So no, it isn't on the side of Palestinians, the fault and failure of peace negotiations is a combination of the recognition of PLO as the only group to represent Palestinians, and the ability for Israel's leadership to decline further peace talks with the one organization that got to be recognized to represent Palestinians.

The average Palestinian citizen has no voice, has no power, has no group to join in with peace talks or liberation that can make progress with the government. Sounds like the only things they can do are fight back or leave, kinda tough place to be in.

Then again, if you kick me out of my home, drive me to a dirt lot, and tell me to live there from now on, I'm gonna come back with the meanest things I can to try to reclaim my home, or at least make it unlivable for those who kicked me out. Palestinians who fight for their liberation aren't doing any different. The original settlements purchased by European Zionists are tiny little places, and they were bought long before the World War era. Everything else Israel has gained has been through military action.

[TheDAWinz]

This thread should be renamed U.S. vs Mexico. I say we carpet nuke them!

[Warborn]

So what is wrong with you'r argument about the Africans?
Mostly that they are not immigrants. They are illegal immigrants. It is not racial hate, but enforcing the borders.
Same thing goes to the camps. The camps in which they stay before they are deported to their original country. Instead of being homeless. Legal African immigrants (Ethiopia and Yemen) leave here peacefully since 1950.
The same thing happens in most of the other countries in the world.
Congrats on making an issue out of nothing.
Though I do agree that the hospital thing went to far.

"African infiltrators threaten the State of Israel" (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-israel-could-be-overrun-by-african-infiltrators-1.431589)

The parallels I could draw between what this guy is saying and what people used to say about **** is staggering. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/31/israeli-minister-racial-tensions-infiltrators)

There's a difference between enforcing immigration laws, and wanting to deport all Africans and put them into camps and deny them health care and charge anyone who offers them aid.

So. Yes. The facts that photographer would die and that the rocket is fake is true (the rocket is to clear; from personal experience.

I am not interested in more conjecture. If you don't have any actual evidence the picture is a fraud then just let it go. As I said, who even cares about this particular photo? There are hundreds of children who've been killed by airstrikes by the IDF, it's not like that picture would be some kind of smoking gun.

[Necronile]

"African infiltrators threaten the State of Israel" (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-israel-could-be-overrun-by-african-infiltrators-1.431589)

The parallels I could draw between what this guy is saying and what people used to say about **** is staggering. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/31/israeli-minister-racial-tensions-infiltrators)

There's a difference between enforcing immigration laws, and wanting to deport all Africans and put them into camps and deny them health care and charge anyone who offers them aid.



I am not interested in more conjecture. If you don't have any actual evidence the picture is a fraud then just let it go. As I said, who even cares about this particular photo? There are hundreds of children who've been killed by airstrikes by the IDF, it's not like that picture would be some kind of smoking gun.
And what ? you think the IDF aims for the civillians on purpose?
The only reason civillians get killed is the fact that hamas and other terror organizations hide behind them while firing hundreds of rockets if not thousands.

[MightyMan]

This thread should be renamed U.S. vs Mexico. I say we carpet nuke them!

Sorry man but the 1st of April is too far for me to do that.

Funny thing is that the conditions were already bad in east Berlin before the World War era, so putting up a wall didn't worsen the area. The workers in East Berlin were well-trained, and were being taken care of better than before the wall went up. When the wall came down, workers in the East divisions were better trained and educated, but would be exploited the same as any other worker, and it is cited that the East division workers were responsible for German innovation and economic growth after the wall came down.

I wouldn't consider the apartheid to be anything close to East/West Berlin. Berlin was a matter of two opposing ideologies represented by two super-powers of the time. Israel and USA vs Palestine is much more of a one-sided oppression, in the form of apartheid.

Israel would not be "wiped out" by Arab nation if it is a one-state that gives fair rights and liberties to all citizens, Jewish or Muslim or Christian or otherwise, Arab or *** or anything else. It would make no sense to wipe out a nation that is peaceful and doesn't oppress its citizens, and doesn't have the goal of becoming a 100% Jewish state.

-

Peace talks broke down in Israel because the PLO was declared the representatives of the Palestinian people (not by Israel), despite being one of many organizations struggling for peace. It would be like if America was invaded, and the Tea Party was selected to represent all American citizens in the now-occupied country.

After PLO was declared the representative of Palestinian people, it was easy to pick a few things about them that Israeli government didn't approve, and then declare that they would not conduct any more peace talks with the only group that is recognized as representing Palestinians. Current leadership is Israel refuses to try to make peace with a group that all Palestinians don't even feel represent them or their ideals. So no, it isn't on the side of Palestinians, the fault and failure of peace negotiations is a combination of the recognition of PLO as the only group to represent Palestinians, and the ability for Israel's leadership to decline further peace talks with the one organization that got to be recognized to represent Palestinians.

The average Palestinian citizen has no voice, has no power, has no group to join in with peace talks or liberation that can make progress with the government. Sounds like the only things they can do are fight back or leave, kinda tough place to be in.

Then again, if you kick me out of my home, drive me to a dirt lot, and tell me to live there from now on, I'm gonna come back with the meanest things I can to try to reclaim my home, or at least make it unlivable for those who kicked me out. Palestinians who fight for their liberation aren't doing any different. The original settlements purchased by European Zionists are tiny little places, and they were bought long before the World War era. Everything else Israel has gained has been through military action.

Neurotoxin you dumb, dumb infantile. If I can still respect Warborn's arguments for making logic in theory, you'r arguments are just a bunch of things that a terrified kid would tell to his mother after he was scared by the monster under his bed. There are so many things that are flawed in you'r logic and you'r basic knowledge, that it just amazes me.
In you'r arguments you have presented nothing but conspiracies, and you choose to completely ignore not only my arguments but also reality.

LETS START:

1. USA IS NOT WITH ISRAEL ON THIS CONFLICT. INFACT, THE USA HELPED TO MAINTAIN THE CONFLICT PEACEFUL (lol, but there is bombing ( only at terrorists). LOL BUT THERE IS NO WAR). They are on neither side of the conflict and are natural.
The USA did not take part in any of the wars of Israel with the surrounding countries. In fact, they are the one who helped to organize most of the peace treaties of Israel with the surrounding countries, and the one who organizes the peace talks between Israel and Palestine.

2. Israel WOULD be wiped out. YOU KNOW WHY? Because of ideology. Not because we are in a conflict with the Palestinians. Religion (or at least religious leaders) tell them that Israelis are sinners, demons, satan, drinkers of arab baby blood, and should be punished for insulting Allah with their religion.
That is the common ideology in countries like Iran who shout all the time stuff like "LOLZ WE GONNA MAKE BOMB AND THROW IT ON YOU" "LOLZ WE ARE GOING TO MASSACRE YOU". Now other countries, who are a bit more sane then Iran, would go in war with Israel, for the simple reason of gaining profit from it. The rule gets more popularity, and in case of victory, they gain new territories and resources. Unlike what you may think, the rule of most of the arab countries do not give two shits about Palestinians. And unlike what you may think, if Israel puts it's guns down and gives away all of the territories, there wouldn't be a big tea party with balloons and cakes, instead, the territories would be used to launch attacks on more populated territories of Israel. Palestinian people will not just say "hey hey hey, you gave us the territories now we are BFFs, they would demand all the remaining territories too. It is simple human logic.

3. PLO was not declared as the representative of the Palestinian nation. The
"Palestinian National Authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Authority)" was declared as the representative. Now you may say "But hey, it was still declared Israel and not by the Palestinian nation" and I would slap you. The PNA is only the government in general. Just like in any democratic country. The actual members of the government are chosen by the Palestinian people. The only thing that Israel has declared about the PLO is the fact that they are no longer hostile towards each other (before 1993 the PLO was a terrorist organisation who called for wiping out Israel).
It was elected as the ruling party in the Palestinian government by Palestinian citizens only. Now you may say: hurr durr Israel was responsible for the election, by using fake votes and stuffs. The funny thing is that the PLO is no longer the ruling party of the Palestinian government. Beginning from 2005 until today, the ruling party is the Fatah. The REAL funny thing here is that the Fatah is completely hostile towards Israel. So saying that Israel somehow steers the elections in it's favors is ridiculous.

"The average Palestinian citizen has no voice, has no power, has no group to join in with peace talks or liberation that can make progress with the government. Sounds like the only things they can do are fight back or leave, kinda tough place to be in. "

Ludicrous. As said above, Palestinians CAN vote. They DO have power. As citizens of Palestine (they even have their own Palestinian passports for gods sake). Why don't they have power in Israel? Because they are not citizens of Israel, just like French people don't have power in Britain.

"Then again, if you kick me out of my home, drive me to a dirt lot, and tell me to live there from now on"

Fuck off. No Palestinians have EVER been kicked out of their homes. Those that lost their homes, were the one who left them willingly after the establishment of Israel to the surrounding countries. Years later they come back, crazed by flawed ideology and start shouting "Those are our homes. It's not like our families willingly gave them up years ago to move into different territory, and it's not like the Palestinians who stayed in Israel are now Israeli citizen who's homes were never touched by other Israelis, totally. We are the rightful owners of those territories even though we have no documents what so ever about it".
Does that sound logical to you? DOES IT?

"The original settlements purchased by European Zionists are tiny little places, and they were bought long before the World War era. Everything else Israel has gained has been through military action."
So, half the country was Israel's as it was divided by the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine.
The other half was Palestinian. Right after the establishment of Israel (on the same day), 6 surrounding arab countries have declared a war on Israel, to try and conquer the Israeli half. At the time of war the Palestinian territory was under the rule of Jordan. At then, Israel won the war and conquered Jordan's Palestinian territories. Now, Instead of having 100% of the territories, 25% were given to the Palestinians (willingly, without war), and those territories are now fully under Palestinian. Another territory that was conquered by Israel is the Gaza strip which is about 5% of Israel which was given to the Palestinians too. Which means that as of now 70% of the territories belong to Israel and 30% belong to Palestine.
Originally, 55% of the territories were supposed to be Israel's which means that right now, 15% of Israel's territory were actually occupied from another country. A hostile country. One that has nothing to do with Palestine.

You did not even try to research the history of this conflict before you rammed in shouting that Israel is jack the ripper and that Palestine is mother Teresa did you?

[MightyMan]

"African infiltrators threaten the State of Israel" (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-israel-could-be-overrun-by-african-infiltrators-1.431589)

The parallels I could draw between what this guy is saying and what people used to say about **** is staggering. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/31/israeli-minister-racial-tensions-infiltrators)

There's a difference between enforcing immigration laws, and wanting to deport all Africans and put them into camps and deny them health care and charge anyone who offers them aid.



I am not interested in more conjecture. If you don't have any actual evidence the picture is a fraud then just let it go. As I said, who even cares about this particular photo? There are hundreds of children who've been killed by airstrikes by the IDF, it's not like that picture would be some kind of smoking gun.

Wait... So you mean that the fact that he would die from the explosion of the rocket is not enough? Nice one.
"hundreds of children who've been killed by airstrikes by the IDF"
Clearly you have chosen to completely ignore my replies.
Oh and BTW: If you don't actually have any actual evidence that the IDF did this then just let it go.
HOW WOULD HUNDREDS OF CHILDREN DIE IF THE IDF DOES NOT ATTACK CIVILIAN TARGETS. HOW?

"wanting to deport all Africans and put them into camps and deny them health care and charge anyone who offers them aid. "

Why would wanting to deport illegal immigrants be a wrong thing? They are illegal. Why would putting them into camps be wrong? Does it mean that they would be treated like animals? No. It means that instead of sleeping on the ground with no means of acquiring money other then illegal activity and collecting bottles, they are given a bed, warm meals, a toilet and safety.
Where the hell did you read that they are denied health care, and that those who offer them aid a charged is a mystery to me.

And as of the things told by Netanyahu and Yishai, as I said Netantahu is a dumb ass while Yishai is a racist idiot who is in favor of the illegal settlers and is no less of a donkey, and I am ashamed that he is part of the government.

[Warborn]

Operation Cast Lead alone resulted in over 300 children and almost 100 women being killed by Israeli airstrikes and artillery. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War) It may be that IDF commanders do not begin an operation like this specifically deciding they want to kill children or civilians in general, but it's quite obvious that they do not care if they do. After Cast Lead, Israel was roundly condemned by the UN and international community (except the US, Canada, Australia, and a couple other shitholes) and accused of war crimes by the UN.

[Necronile]

Operation Cast Lead alone resulted in over 300 children and almost 100 women being killed by Israeli airstrikes and artillery. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War) It may be that IDF commanders do not begin an operation like this specifically deciding they want to kill children or civilians in general, but it's quite obvious that they do not care if they do. After Cast Lead, Israel was roundly condemned by the UN and international community (except the US, Canada, Australia, and a couple other shitholes) and accused of war crimes by the UN.
Lets also accuse US of war crimes aswell after the shit they did in Iraq...
and believe me that the IDF commanders do care...
last thing they would want is to sit in jail for careless decisions.

[ItsTheSheppy]

Lets also accuse US of war crimes aswell after the shit they did in Iraq...
and believe me that the IDF commanders do care...
last thing they would want is to sit in jail for careless decisions.

This is a thread about Israel. While I would certainly not argue with you that crimes against humanity were committed by the US (and its allies, and enemies... it's impossible to conduct a war and not commit atrocities), this is a conversation about Israel and pointing at someone else and saying "But he does it too!" does not absolve someone of their action.

I think the point here is that Israel is particularly egregious because it has in this case in specific and in other cases in general launched attacks on civilian populations under the guise of striking military or insurgent targets.

[Necronile]

This is a thread about Israel. While I would certainly not argue with you that crimes against humanity were committed by the US (and its allies, and enemies... it's impossible to conduct a war and not commit atrocities), this is a conversation about Israel and pointing at someone else and saying "But he does it too!" does not absolve someone of their action.

I think the point here is that Israel is particularly egregious because it has in this case in specific and in other cases in general launched attacks on civilian populations under the guise of striking military or insurgent targets.

Nope...there is nothing for Israel to gain by killing civillians.
Civilian casualties are part of war,sad but true...
and again the only reason civillians are getting killed is beacuse terror organizations like hamas use them as human shields.

[ItsTheSheppy]

Nope...there is nothing for Israel to gain by killing civillians.
Civilian casualties are part of war,sad but true...
and again the only reason civillians are getting killed is beacuse terror organizations like hamas use them as human shields.

Does it not strike you as being much more likely that Hamas lives and operates among the Palestinian citizenry because many of them are, in fact, Palestinian citizenry? I find it very unlikely that Palestinian members of Hamas are using their friends and neighbors as 'human shields', and are rather hiding in plain sight among their own people.

[Neurotoxin]

Yeah, you are right, Israel is perfect, they totally stole the Golan Heights from Syria because it was justified, they totally need to finish the job of wiping out those pesky natives that wanna call themselves Palestinians. Just like America is perfect, American murder and genocide of Native Americans was fine because they were godless savages who didn't understand property rights, and theft of property from Mexico (at gunpoint in Mexico City) was fine because America said it wanted a parallel country.

No sense arguing with someone who is brainwashed by ideology that supports them. You may have a few facts right, but your history of the struggle in the region is very biased and one-sided. I listen to the stories of the victims to learn about what is going on, not from learning the oppressor's ideology and justifications for brutal occupation. I know many Palestinians that still have the key to the lock on the front door of the house they used to live in, some even have photos or other details connecting them with their legitimate homes.

To everybody else, if you ever meet someone who has an oxidized key around their neck, who appears to be of Middle-Eastern descent, ask them about the key. If they turn out to be Palestinian, ask them more. Learn from victims, not oppressors.

This discussion has been a clinic in Zionist defense and deflection against blame for crimes against Palestinians. No more posts from me on this discussion, as you know my stance by now.

One last detail for anyone who cares, I organize with ANSWER Coalition (http://www.answercoalition.org/national/news/?headlinesissues=palestine&headlinesdateType=publication_date&headlinesstartDate=&headlinesendDate=) to defend the rights of all oppressed people to self-determination within their own country, as well as fighting to end Apartheid wherever it exists in the world, and that isn't all ANSWER does either. Click the link and read up on Palestine from a different perspective than the Zionist pro-Israel narrative.

[Figment]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-july-31-2012/democalypse-2012---national-geogaffe-ic

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-july-31-2012/democalypse-2012---national-geogaffe-ic---romney-abroad

Israeli's? Mexicans? This seems fitting for this thread.

[Warborn]

Lets also accuse US of war crimes aswell after the shit they did in Iraq...
and believe me that the IDF commanders do care...
last thing they would want is to sit in jail for careless decisions.

Sure, the US is probably guilty of some war crimes fro Iraq. Maybe Falluja, if not the entire war being an illegal war of aggression? The Allies also perpetrated many war crimes in World War 2. Robert McNamara, in The Fog of War, says outright that them firebombing Tokyo and elsewhere and especially deciding to drop the nukes were war crimes, and they'd have been hanged if the war were lost.

IDF commanders aren't going to go to jail. Who's going to charge them? The Israeli courts? Are you kidding? They have nothing to fear. There isn't anything the government wants more than to be rid of the Palestinians. They aren't going to throw their own people to the wolves over a few hundred dead Palestinian children.

Nope...there is nothing for Israel to gain by killing civillians.
Civilian casualties are part of war,sad but true...
and again the only reason civillians are getting killed is beacuse terror organizations like hamas use them as human shields.

What they want is to force the Palestinians into submission. It's why they keep Gaza and the West Bank on the brink of economic collapse indefinitely. They want to make life as shitty as they can without causing a major humanitarian crisis, and that's straight from Wikileaks.

[WildGunsTomcat]

It would be nice if you and your Muslim neighbors could stop killing and hating each other long enough to work together to build a better and more functional society. You might find they'll be less focused on having their own country if they felt welcomed in yours. I'm speaking more to your government and your culture as a whole rather than to just you, mind. I don't imagine its your fault personally.

It's just such a waste of time, having two cultures of people living in such close proximity who hate each other because they have different invisible friends. It's depressing, and a major source for a lot of unnecessary conflict in that region.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/FeralTomcat/3ocy42.jpg

I agree.

As an aside: Neither Christ...Nor Muhammad...would want this. They both taught tolerance and peace, something the modern religious don't really have much of a grasp on.

Jesus would go to Chik-Fil-A...and break bread with a married gay couple. Guaranteed. I'm not even joking either. All of this bullshit about "Well he's not like me...and he doesn't believe what I believe...so he's going to some imagined hell..." Is BS. I patently reject the King James Bible. Humans are humans...gay...straight...black...white. We're all on the same ride...so why be hateful to each other? Why tell someone they're going to hell because they don't believe the same things you do, because a 2000 year old book says so? Do you think that a loving creator would banish someone to hell because they loved someone that a book says they shouldn't love? Rubbish. Unadulterated rubbish.

People are interpreting a book different ways...and telling gays they can't marry...or killing each other...etc...over an interpretation of a book.

If one believes in God/Allah...and what Christ/Muhammad said...then you should embrace your neighbor as your brother...you should rejoice in someone being in love and finding their soul mate...be they gay or not...

I myself believe in a higher power. I don't call it God...because that diminishes what it is for me. I don't subscribe to religion...because that is a shackle.

Live in peace...and embrace knowledge.

/thread

[Warborn]

Hey guys I found the solution to crime: Criminals just need to stop committing crimes.

/thread

Unfortunately shit isn't as easy as "why can't we just get along". One side has the army, the police, the political power, and all the other cards, and they ain't taking a step.

[WildGunsTomcat]

Hey guys I found the solution to crime: Criminals just need to stop committing crimes.

/thread

Unfortunately shit isn't as easy as "why can't we just get along". One side has the army, the police, the political power, and all the other cards, and they ain't taking a step.

And that's why I choose not to get involved. I live my life, and leave the rest of the world to figure it out. It's not worth my sanity.

[Necronile]

What they want is to force the Palestinians into submission. It's why they keep Gaza and the West Bank on the brink of economic collapse indefinitely. They want to make life as shitty as they can without causing a major humanitarian crisis, and that's straight from Wikileaks.
Again,what is it to gain from forcing the Palestinians into submission?
And dont tell me resources,because there are no resources to gain from those specific territories.

Yeah, you are right, Israel is perfect, they totally stole the Golan Heights from Syria because it was justified, they totally need to finish the job of wiping out those pesky natives that wanna call themselves Palestinians. Just like America is perfect, American murder and genocide of Native Americans was fine because they were godless savages who didn't understand property rights, and theft of property from Mexico (at gunpoint in Mexico City) was fine because America said it wanted a parallel country.

No sense arguing with someone who is brainwashed by ideology that supports them. You may have a few facts right, but your history of the struggle in the region is very biased and one-sided. I listen to the stories of the victims to learn about what is going on, not from learning the oppressor's ideology and justifications for brutal occupation. I know many Palestinians that still have the key to the lock on the front door of the house they used to live in, some even have photos or other details connecting them with their legitimate homes.

To everybody else, if you ever meet someone who has an oxidized key around their neck, who appears to be of Middle-Eastern descent, ask them about the key. If they turn out to be Palestinian, ask them more. Learn from victims, not oppressors.

This discussion has been a clinic in Zionist defense and deflection against blame for crimes against Palestinians. No more posts from me on this discussion, as you know my stance by now.

One last detail for anyone who cares, I organize with ANSWER Coalition (http://www.answercoalition.org/national/news/?headlinesissues=palestine&headlinesdateType=publication_date&headlinesstartDate=&headlinesendDate=) to defend the rights of all oppressed people to self-determination within their own country, as well as fighting to end Apartheid wherever it exists in the world, and that isn't all ANSWER does either. Click the link and read up on Palestine from a different perspective than the Zionist pro-Israel narrative.
Same thing I can say about Palestinian and other arab people.
If I am brainwashed by ideology they are also brainwashed,thats what we learned through history...
and its kind of stupid for you to say its biased one sided struggle when you only concentrate on what happend to the palestinians only and not the ****.
Also get your facts straight about the golan heights,Israel didnt steal It,she occupied it after syria attacked her.
The only reason its still not in syria's hands its because they did not want to make peace like the rest of the arab countries.

[Figment]

Again,what is it to gain from forcing the Palestinians into submission?
And dont tell me resources,because there are no resources to gain from those specific territories.

Land. And time to 'legally' obtain it subtly through grandfather rights, basically. For instance, they want to have full say over all of Jerusalem, much like the Palestinians, who want to settle at half the city. To strengthen the Jewish claim on Jerusalem, more and more small bits of territory around Jerusalem and other areas are virtually annexed piece by piece (see map I've posted before).

Same thing I can say about Palestinian and other arab people.
If I am brainwashed by ideology they are also brainwashed,thats what we learned through history...

I believe everyone says both sides are not just trying (and in many cases succeeding) to brainwash, but pretty damn badly too. Nobody here has claimed one sided brainwashing or one sided baddies.

and its kind of stupid for you to say its biased one sided struggle when you only concentrate on what happend to the palestinians only and not the ****.

See above. You're putting words in people's mouths to strawmen them.


I would advise both you and Neurotoxin to read this without going "OHHH THEY DID IT" at the first sign of one side doing something:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

Both sides are to blame for the Palestinian refugees, both sides stimulated the Palestinians to leave their homes, be it for different reasons and with different goals in mind.

Neither side wants to take responsibility for them. Basically, they've been screwed pretty badly, some of which self-imposed. Some after all considered it a calculated risk and expected the **** to, as Nasser put it "be driven into the sea" swiftly. To blame it all on the Arabs is too much. To blame it all on the **** is also out of line.


To blame all of it on ethnic and religious hatred, egomaniacs and bigotry, now you're getting somewhere.

[Sgt Shultz]

One last detail for anyone who cares, I organize with ANSWER Coalition (http://www.answercoalition.org/national/news/?headlinesissues=palestine&headlinesdateType=publication_date&headlinesstartDate=&headlinesendDate=) to defend the rights of all oppressed people to self-determination within their own country, as well as fighting to end Apartheid wherever it exists in the world, and that isn't all ANSWER does either. Click the link and read up on Palestine from a different perspective than the Zionist pro-Israel narrative.

You organize with ANSWER and you expect anyone to take your view points seriously? Supporting socialists back in the 50s and 60s was excusable due to lack of information about the results of socialism. However in this day and age where the terror and hell on earth it created is well documented, I can't even fathom the level of intentional ignorance one would have to summon to endure a Marxist.

[Warborn]

Again,what is it to gain from forcing the Palestinians into submission?
And dont tell me resources,because there are no resources to gain from those specific territories.

They want Israel for themselves and want the Palestinian problem to go away. Their handling of the Palestinians makes them look like shit internationally. It is a major nuisance for them. So if they could convince all the Palestinians to leave and go to Jordan, or to surrender all claims to the Palestinian occupied territories, or to otherwise make some deal that'd finally cede the area to Israel, then the Israeli government would have a big, ongoing burden lifted from it.

[Necronile]

Land. And time to 'legally' obtain it subtly through grandfather rights, basically. For instance, they want to have full say over all of Jerusalem, much like the Palestinians, who want to settle at half the city. To strengthen the Jewish claim on Jerusalem, more and more small bits of territory around Jerusalem and other areas are virtually annexed piece by piece (see map I've posted before).



I believe everyone says both sides are not just trying (and in many cases succeeding) to brainwash, but pretty damn badly too. Nobody here has claimed one sided brainwashing or one sided baddies.



See above. You're putting words in people's mouths to strawmen them.


I would advise both you and Neurotoxin to read this without going "OHHH THEY DID IT" at the first sign of one side doing something:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

Both sides are to blame for the Palestinian refugees, both sides stimulated the Palestinians to leave their homes, be it for different reasons and with different goals in mind.

Neither side wants to take responsibility for them. Basically, they've been screwed pretty badly, some of which self-imposed. Some after all considered it a calculated risk and expected the **** to, as Nasser put it "be driven into the sea" swiftly. To blame it all on the Arabs is too much. To blame it all on the **** is also out of line.


To blame all of it on ethnic and religious hatred, egomaniacs and bigotry, now you're getting somewhere.

I agree with you that both sides are to blame for the problems now,but there wouldn't be this problem of territory if the palestinians agreed with the first plan to divide the country to jewish and arab states in '48.

[Figment]

The problem is you never asked them then and just did your thing quickly to make sure they didn't beat you to it. And apparently you don't realise you are basically asking them to part with something on the same level as Mecca and the St. Peter. And I'll readily agree they may not have acted understanding nor welcoming at the time at all so that this may have been one of the only ways to get exactly what you wanted without compromise, but it was always going to lead to war.

It was a stupid thing and way to do it then. Had their been an agreed upon plan in advance, things might have gone different. Question of course is whether the Palestinians would have ever accepted a Jewish state or influence on their state, or a state with both religions treated as equal.


It just was a plan that was probably always going to go bad fast. :/ Tbh, if you had managed a secular state, perhaps a federal state, with fair guarantees for all religions regarding holy sites... Too late for that now though.

[Baneblade]

In fairness to the Palestinians, they were there first (both times), they haven't done anything any of us wouldn't do in their position, and the **** didn't need special treatment Holocaust or no.

[Necronile]

The problem is you never asked them then and just did your thing quickly to make sure they didn't beat you to it. And apparently you don't realise you are basically asking them to part with something on the same level as Mecca and the St. Peter. And I'll readily agree they may not have acted understanding nor welcoming at the time at all so that this may have been one of the only ways to get exactly what you wanted without compromise, but it was always going to lead to war.

It was a stupid thing and way to do it then. Had their been an agreed upon plan in advance, things might have gone different. Question of course is whether the Palestinians would have ever accepted a Jewish state or influence on their state, or a state with both religions treated as equal.


It just was a plan that was probably always going to go bad fast. :/ Tbh, if you had managed a secular state, perhaps a federal state, with fair guarantees for all religions regarding holy sites... Too late for that now though.
The federal state proposal was denied by both sides I think..so yea...
Problem is that two religions would never get along,they might look like getting along,but tension will allways be there.
The situation here is phucked up.
and Baneblade
Its kinda harsh to hear from you saying ''holocaust or not''...
after that kind of tragedy the whole world (most of it I think) thought the **** deserved their own state.

[ItsTheSheppy]

It wouldn't be a problem at all if there was no such thing as a '***' or a 'muslim'. They'd all just be 'semitic'.

The problem is religion. At it's core. If this conversation strays from that it's beating around the bush. The **** are on top and so the muslims are getting the stick. If it was the other way around, the **** would be getting the stick. Simple as that.

[Necronile]

It wouldn't be a problem at all if there was no such thing as a '***' or a 'muslim'. They'd all just be 'semitic'.

The problem is religion. At it's core. If this conversation strays from that it's beating around the bush. The **** are on top and so the muslims are getting the stick. If it was the other way around, the **** would be getting the stick. Simple as that.

I have to agree with that

[BuzzCutPsycho]

I'm glad we can all agree that the **** are once again the cause of yet another of the world's major problems.

[Warborn]

What previous major world problems would you say **** are responsible for?

[Necronile]

What previous major world problems would you say **** are responsible for?

Dont mind him he is probably trolling

[Kyonye]

Also bear in mind that they USA simply can not have as tight cages, since a large portion of their own citizens would be unable to squeeze through. :p

Oh man that made me laugh. It's so true. Every time I see an extremely overweight person, I cringe. I am well versed in physical education, and I always offer FREE consultation/help to anyone who wants to lose weight and better themselves... never happens. It also doesn't help that I live in Texas and they currently have two cities on the top 10 list. Surprised they aren't on the top 10 states list.

As for this debate. I'm pro-Israel. I understand that both sides can be placed at fault. In terms of media coverage, they tend to be more sympathetic towards the Palestinians. Many times articles are printed without ultimate fact checking.

Overall, that is the current model of world media. Lie first, continue to ignore facts.

[Figment]

I'm glad we can all agree that the **** are once again the cause of yet another of the world's major problems.

I'm glad we can all agree you haven't read a single post in this topic nor understand a single one of the arguments since you don't want to read nor understand a nuanciated argument. :)

[MightyMan]

So, the only reason I necro-bump this is to bring this to closure and this is the last I'l post anything on this thread.
Last time I was here was like 2 or 3 months ago. As always I have spent an hour of my day maintaining this thread and shouting at those who in my opinion had a wrong idea of the conflict. After an especially stupid argument with my purple gorilla friend, I just gave up and rage quit not only from the thread but the forums at general, a thing that I regret and ashamed of.

You see, I came to a conclusion that no matter how much I or anyone else argues with each other on this or a similar subject with two clear view points (save for a small amount of smart asses ;) ) always go the same, someone says something bad about one side, and the other replies by countering the claims and says something bad about the second side.
Now the fact is that no matter what anyone says, they will never change the other side's opinion because both sides will always be sure that the other's side views are biased and false, which results with nothing but a pointless waist of time.

This is why I ask you to never start threads like this, because they serve as nothing more then an ugly mole on the political forum's face.

I am sorry for ever opening this thread, and god forbid I ever make such a mistake again.

Oh, and I'ma back :|

[Figment]

See the thread could easily be fine. But I'm sorry to say, you and a few others don't handle critique well: national pride gets in the way of a proper discussion. If you ask for opinions, don't cry whenever they don't corresspond with your own views.

There were a few people in this thread that gave a subjective good + bad view, where all bad was either waved away and quickly excused with a "but they did", or denied or interpreted as hate, but at the very least it was insinuated to be prejudice.

Did you ever acknowledge your own prejudices though? I honestly can't recall that, what I do recall is you feeling attacked and acting indignified when critized and in some cases basically calling us liars even if we see or provide footage. Even if we say both sides are at fault, etc. Thing is, you asked us what we think of Israël, not of the syrian or palestinian authorities.

The irony is, you described yourself to have "neutral opinions", I think it was clear you do not. You're not Suiss or Swedish, you are an involved, Israëli party, you are proud of your countries achievements and a clear patriot in a way. What you are not, is neutral. You would be neutral if you stood on the sideline like say a Canadian, rather than in the field. (Republican) Americans (in particular) tend to have picked the israeli side. Europeans are inclined to in principle support Israël, but will also be more critical. Many left wing fend to side with the underdog. So expect critique and accept it when you ask for it