World of Warcraft

[Harps]

Im at school and right now and im pretty bored ... But i was just wondering how many of u think this game is going to be good, do u guys think you'll be playing it ?

Im a long time blizzard fan and i think it is going to be great .. but i dont know if ill be playing it since planetside will be out =X

[TheRegurgitator]

i am going to get the game and go crazy over it

[Squeeky]

:rofl: YOu know what the funny thing is? I can walk to foster's school right now :lol: we live really close to eachother

[Matuse]

I think that WoW has the potential to be good, but going from extensive battle.net history, Blizzard has demonstrated an awe-inspiring ability to underestimate their customer base, both in numbers and in ingenuity to cheat.

If I did decide to get WoW, I'd definately wait at least a month before I did, to avoid the large number of problems that will crop up around the release date.

[JonnyK]

well out of these games Planetside>SWG>WOW i don't think world of warcraft will be that good of a game, but i haven't really payed much attention to it. but from what i have seen, star wars galaxies looks like a way cooler game

[Doobz]

dude, if you haven't paid much attention, go check out the latest movie on gamespot, it looks great

i think it's going to be great, blizzard hasn't done much wrong
it will be good, i'll play it constantly

i especially love the cityscapes in the movie, it looks cool to chill in a tavern with some friends :)

[Warborn]

Matuse:
I think that WoW has the potential to be good, but going from extensive battle.net history, Blizzard has demonstrated an awe-inspiring ability to underestimate their customer base both in numbers

That was a problem with Starcraft and Diablo 2. It wasn't a problem with Warcraft 3. Blizzard learned their lesson and plans accordingly now.

... and in ingenuity to cheat.

Not a serious problem in other MMORPGs, won't be a problem in WoW. You can't compare something like Diablo 2 to World of Warcraft. One is an MMORPG, one isn't. One you pay a subscription for, one you don't.

Originally posted by JonnyK
well out of these games Planetside>SWG>WOW i don't think world of warcraft will be that good of a game, but i haven't really payed much attention to it. but from what i have seen, star wars galaxies looks like a way cooler game

I find it insane that people can say this. Exactly how much do you know about WoW? You don't even know all the races, you don't know any classes, you don't know how their PvP will work, you don't know how leveling will work, you don't know how skills and spells will work, and you don't know any other miscellaneous details. It's pointless for anyone to make a solid statement against WoW being good, because they've released such little information on it that it's impossible to tell (and given how much SWG said they'd have, and how much they had to cut, I'm glad Blizzard is holding back).

The only thing you know for certain is that it's being made by Blizzard, and Blizzard will not allow their reputation to falter, so there is no chance that they'd release the game if it isn't extremely good.


And to add my two cents, I think it's going to be excellent. As I said, it's Blizzard, and they have a reputation to keep. Not only is the setting the game takes place in one I've been playing in for years through the Warcraft franchise, but they have more talent, money, and committment to outmatch any other development team making an MMORPG at the moment. Unless they do something stupid like make those fucking panda men a playable race, WoW will kick ass for sure -- Blizzard wouldn't have it any other way.

[Flameseeker]

It probably will be excellent. But, I don't have the funds for two MMOs, and PS>all, so bye-bye WoW. :(

[Sputty]

I'll be playing PS until Wow comes out in 2010. It's the Blizzard way. 1.1...Gahh....They should've released .095 or something. So many hacks...so much lag...It hurts..

[QuickStar]

i wont get world of warcraft , if i get anything it would be everquest 2

[Doobz]

everquest 2? erm.... no

WoW will be far better

[Warborn]

Originally posted by Sputty
I'll be playing PS until Wow comes out in 2010. It's the Blizzard way. 1.1...Gahh....They should've released .095 or something. So many hacks...so much lag...It hurts..

Beta is this year. Release sometime next year. Tsk tsk to the exaggeration.

[Doobz]

man, i really hope i get into that beta, that game looks pimptastic :)

[Warborn]

Originally posted by Doobz
man, i really hope i get into that beta, that game looks pimptastic :)

<- Automatically gets in once Beta begins :D

[Doobz]

wha...?

[2coasts]

Ill buy the first MMORPG/MMOFPS that ID comes out with...

[Robot]

I might buy it

But only if they totally re-think PVP.

[Warborn]

Doobz:
wha...?

What?

Originally posted by Robot
But only if they totally re-think PVP.

Want to explain? What's wrong with their extremely vague PvP system?

[Doobz]

Originally posted by Warborn
<- Automatically gets in once Beta begins :D

you get in automatically?

[Robot]

Originally posted by Warborn
Want to explain? What's wrong with their extremely vague PvP system?

Looking at it again, it actually looks pretty cool. I just hope that there'll be more, "battle fields" than PvE areas. (I dunno, I just guess I like Warcraft for the War and not the Peace)

[Warborn]

Originally posted by Doobz
you get in automatically?

Yeah. I Beta'd the hell out of The Frozen Throne, so I get into the WoW Beta automatically, in the first round of testers.

Robot:
Looking at it again, it actually looks pretty cool. I just hope that there'll be more, "battle fields" than PvE areas. (I dunno, I just guess I like Warcraft for the War and not the Peace)

There won't be. You don't need tons and tons of battlefields. The fewer battlefields you have, the more focused and intense the combat is. I mean, hell, just look at PS and its lattice system. By limiting the areas where fighting can take place, you promote more large-scale engagements. If they throw in objectives and whatnot as well (note: they haven't unveiled their PvP system yet, so we don't know for sure) it would be extremely cool. Similar to DAoC, but way better.

Either way, WoW is a MMORPG, and MMORPGs demand the developer to satisfy as many people as possible. And many, many people like their PvE, PvP free. So Warcraft or not, it's still a game, and there are still rules that need to be followed.

[Doobz]

aw, man, that sucks

i want in :(

[Warborn]

Originally posted by Doobz
aw, man, that sucks

i want in :(

Are you in The Frozen Throne's Beta?

[Doobz]

no :(
i wish i were :(

[Warborn]

Originally posted by Doobz
no :(
i wish i were :(

That sucks, man. A lot of good testers get screwed out of the Friends List simply because they didn't get picked for Beta.

[Robot]

Originally posted by Warborn
There won't be. You don't need tons and tons of battlefields. The fewer battlefields you have, the more focused and intense the combat is. I mean, hell, just look at PS and its lattice system. By limiting the areas where fighting can take place, you promote more large-scale engagements. If they throw in objectives and whatnot as well (note: they haven't unveiled their PvP system yet, so we don't know for sure) it would be extremely cool. Similar to DAoC, but way better.

Either way, WoW is a MMORPG, and MMORPGs demand the developer to satisfy as many people as possible. And many, many people like their PvE, PvP free. So Warcraft or not, it's still a game, and there are still rules that need to be followed.

Yeah, you're right, actually

[Matuse]

Not a serious problem in other MMORPGs

You never played UO, have you?

Want to explain? What's wrong with their extremely vague PvP system?

The fact that it is RPG based means that their PvP system will suck. There's no way around it. There has NEVER been a PvP system (without incredibly heavy GM moderation) that worked in this style of game. There are a number of game genres where it works great (RTS, FPS, Turn based strategy, etc)...but RPGs are not one of them.

[Spider]

Matuse how long have you been playing MMORPG's kid?

I have been around Uo and the such since you were in diapers heck I even played meridian wich is probably way before your time.

Just because it doesnt satisfy your need for twitch fighting does not mean in anyway that it will suck.

and SWG = Carebear land... no pvp except for faction but even in faction there is restrictions and no looting in my book IT'S A POS

Can't wait to see more of WoW.

[Shadowspawn]

A bunch of my old Everquest cronies work at Blizzard, and are working on WoW


the gm of my old guild(legacy of steel) Tigole is going to be one of the top designers i think for the high end content for WoW

that by itself should make it a hella good game

[Matuse]

Matuse how long have you been playing MMORPG's kid?

Since 1992, Old man. Although it would be more accurate to term them ORPGs, because they weren't all that massive back then. The vast majority of the world had not even heard of the internet at that point, and the WWW did not exist.

I have been around Uo and the such since you were in diapers

Odd, since I beta'd UO.

heck I even played meridian wich is probably way before your time.

Send me your address, I'll mail you a walker. You can go around and shake it at people who are younger than you (everyone, I'm guessing), and scream "DAMN YOU WHIPPERSNAPPERS!".

Just because it doesnt satisfy your need for twitch fighting does not mean in anyway that it will suck.

I don't have a need for twitch fighting. Lack of twitch fighting has nothing to do with it. It's quite possible that WoW will be a really fun game (in fact this is quite likely, Blizzard tends to produce excellent products), so long as you restrict yourself to PvE. Drawing conclusions about my statements, feelings, and motivations from no facts and faulty assumptions is the sign of a brain functioning at a very low level.

Kindly read my post again, I didn't say "PvP in RPGs doesn't work for me", I said it DOESN'T WORK. One statement is an opinion, with which you cannot argue. The other is a fact, with which you cannot argue.

The simple truth is, in the decade+ of playing ORPGs, some with PvP, most without; I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER seen a system that worked, without ungodly levels of administrator oversight. The reasons are many. However, I have no interest in debating with you. You saw fit to hurl insults for no reason and based on assumptions that are so far off base that the only possible location you could have drawn them from is your ass, and frankly arguing with you would be too easy, too boring, and not worth the time.

and SWG = Carebear land... no pvp except for faction but even in faction there is restrictions and no looting in my book IT'S A POS

What the hell does SWG have to do with anything? I know it will suck, I have no intention of playing it...PvP or lack thereof is a non-factor. The game is just going to be pure ass.

ps: If the birthdate information in your profile is accurate, I'm 10 years older than you, imbecile.

[Warborn]

You never played UO, have you?

For a long time actually, but I never include UO when I talk about cheating. That game runs so much stuff client side rather than server side that it's always going to have loads of cheating. So, ammend my post to "everything but UO", because no MMORPG will ever let the client handle so much of the game.

The fact that it is RPG based means that their PvP system will suck. There's no way around it. There has NEVER been a PvP system (without incredibly heavy GM moderation) that worked in this style of game. There are a number of game genres where it works great (RTS, FPS, Turn based strategy, etc)...but RPGs are not one of them.

If you don't like RPG combat systems, you really shouldn't comment on them in that fashion. What I mean is that, as long as it's an MMORPG, there is no way around making the combat RPG-like -- and no, letting the players click to swing and turn it into some kind of action FPS won't work so long as it's an RPG. So there's no point in judging their PvP system, because there is apparently no way they are going to please you with it.

[2coasts]

I want MMORPG's to have pvp on for everyone all the time, and permadeath for every death. It would teach the fat fucks who play them to not be so careless and would induce heart attacks in their already clogged arteries when there character dies.

Most newbies would be killed off and looted, but some would make it through. Its like when an octupus has babies, they release 40,000 tiny little octapuses into the water, most are eaten, but the ones that bide their time and hide and grow eventually come back to kill everything they see.

btw Matuse, pvp worked in the Realm

[2coasts]

oh btw, non "twitch" combat systems, ie where u put through 5 orders and then just sit back and watch it play out are only put in games because the fat bastards who play them spend all day eating cheezy poofs and cant get their fat greasy fingers to the spacebar quickly enough.

[Destroyeron]

Spider got owned.

[Spider]

Matuse the SWG comment was not addresed to you... was a seperate comment..

And if the PvP of mmorpg's doesnt work how do you explain the thousands and thousands of players doing it everyday :ugh:

[Matuse]

If you don't like RPG combat systems, you really shouldn't comment on them in that fashion.

It isn't a matter of what *I* like. Even in relatively popular games like DAoC, the PvP system is ass. The real problem with RPG PvP is one that can't be coded: The players. One griefer can ruin the game for 50 legitimate players.

The only game I've ever seen where it really worked well was a DikuMUD called "Dark Mists". Why did it work?

1) Enforced roleplay (Don't roleplay, lose your character)
2) Extremely active staff
3) Very high staff/player ratio
4) Heavy coded restrictions on who could fight who
5) Limited items...if the GM's decide that there will only be 10 greatswords of almighty ass whooping, then if all 10 have been recovered from the monsters, you need to go kill a player to get one.
6) Unlimited looting...if you were PK'd, you could write off every piece of gold, and every item you were carrying.
7) Permenant player death. PvP deaths aged characters, older characters had an increased chance of losing constitution. Zero constitution = erased character, start over.
8) No experience for killing players.
9) Relatively (compared to a MMORPG) small playerbase. Peak time would see 70-100 players online, not 100,000.

1, 2, 3, 5, 7 would never ever work in a MMORPG where the players had to pay for it. The remainder are not enough to base a system around. You can put in a billion hard-coded restrictions about who can fight, how often people can kill others, making skills less effective on other players, etc, etc...but eventually it just gets to the point where you might as well put in mutually consentual duels and leave it at that. The more open a system is, the more freedom the griefers have, and the more GMs are required to moderate what a computer cannot.

You can't give a job like that to player volunteers, which means having a HUGE full time (that is, 24 hour a day) staff for it. Not possible to make the game profitable with a staff that large, unless you charge an outrageous amount of money (like $50 a month), which then means you won't have a playerbase.

FPS/RTS/Turn based strategy games work on such fundamentally different principles, that PvP works with them quite easily. It just isn't the case in an RPG format.

[2coasts]

I find 1 major fault with your argument Matuse, you say that in games like Everquest, PvP does not work, you state that as a matter of fact. But the 100,000 people that play it seem to disagree with you...

[Warborn]

My point was that you seem to think that WoW will have bad PvP simply because it's an RPG. I personally believe that Blizzard will be able to craft an entertaining and exciting form of PvP (and PvE as well) for its game, as that's a pretty crucial part of the big picture and not something they'd neglect. If anyone can do it, Blizzard can. So I really do not believe there's any reason to pass judgement prematurely on it, as PvP will be excellent in WoW. Blizzard wouldn't allow anything short of excellence to be found in its first MMORPG.

But with the players, nothing will change that. Obviously no system will be perfect, but to expect perfection is to be an idealist. Roll with the punches -- it's a social game, social mishaps are part of it. If you can't do that, then you will not find much enjoyment out of MMORPGs, and I'd advise sticking to single-player games, or regular multiplayer ones.

[Solitudinem]

2coasts... you are WRONG, have you ever played EQ PVP? I have played on Sullon-Zek since the server opened, up until a few months ago, and while at the time, I liked to play, looking back I can say the PVP system was horrid.. for one, it isn't skill based, and you cannot hit someone when you are directly behind them..example: I cast darkness on a player, and try to run him down.. I have to be slightly behind and to his left or right side to hit him..RPGs *CAN* have systems that work to a degree, but they will *ALWAYS* be worse than point-and-click games.

[Harps]

anyway back to WoW i think its going to be great specially after watching that video it just looked great ...

I dont know how much ill be playing it since PS i guess it depends on how much i like PS :)

[Matuse]

2coasts:
I find 1 major fault with your argument Matuse, you say that in games like Everquest, PvP does not work, you state that as a matter of fact. But the 100,000 people that play it seem to disagree with you...

100,000 people do not play PvP in Everquest. The 4 "zek" servers, which are the PvP based, have always been and will always be the lowest population ones out of the 45 or so that are running. Hell, the Test server (where your character or his items could be wiped at any time with no recompense and no warning) is more heavily populated. As far as PvP in an RPG goes, you could not pick a worse example than Everquest.

Warborn:
My point was that you seem to think that WoW will have bad PvP simply because it's an RPG.

Actually, that was my point :D

So I really do not believe there's any reason to pass judgement prematurely on it, as PvP will be excellent in WoW.

It is too early, and yet you do pass such judgement in the same sentence where you claim that I shouldn't. Um...ok.

When WoW comes out in a year, odds are that I'll have long since forgotten about this entire thread and debate, so since I won't be able to do it then, I'll do it now: I TOLD YOU SO!

But with the players, nothing will change that. Obviously no system will be perfect, but to expect perfection is to be an idealist.

There is a perfect system: Player screening (Clearly impossible for WoW, where the only requirement to play is a computer, and internet connection, and a miniscule amount of money) and heavy staff moderation (I doubt Blizzard will have even as good as 1:500 GM/Player ratio - 1:750-1000 will be much more likely -, and for best results, it needs to be in the 1:40 range) combined with measurable penalties for anti-social behavior (ie: Kill someone, and the guards throw your character in jail for a real life month). Until these things exist, there will be endless problems.

The worst part is that the problems caused by players being immature lumps of shit will only be dealt with via code, and players are smarter than the code is...even things like secure trading get corrupted by the legions of scum who base their whole lives on doing nothing else. It'll be a lot worse in WoW than UO/EQ, simply because Blizzard has a ready-made (and enourmous) playerbase already lined up and waiting to play.

If you can't do that, then you will not find much enjoyment out of MMORPGs, and I'd advise sticking to single-player games, or regular multiplayer ones.

I find a great deal of enjoyment out of MMORPGs. I've had an active Everquest account for over 3 years now. If I can find the funds for it, I'll be playing planetside (although probably not for 3 years...I can't envision it keeping me interested for that length of time). I may very well play WoW, but if I do, you can bet your ass that I won't go near PvP.