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Old 2013-07-09, 02:00 PM   [Ignore Me] #1
Sirisian
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Resource System Proposal: Feedback Requested


Before I post this anywhere else it would be nice to get PSU's feedback about my proposed resource system. (It includes a redesigned territory system also since it's a large part of the resource system). I've had a few people read it already and give me their stream of thought criticism as they read it. I think I've edited and removed parts to make it generally agreeable, but I need more players to judge its merits. Before commenting I'd ask that you read it in full as some of the components are spread out in the proposal.


Territory and Resource Redesign Proposal
(Updated July 14th)

(I'd paste it here, but the formatting would take a while and I only want to update it in one place without multiple separated posts).

I have my own list of issues with it that I'm still trying to solve, but I don't want to direct the conversation so I won't list them yet. (If you think I need an image for something also say that. I tried to make a few to illustrate the basic ideas. I'm not an artist so keep that in mind).

Thanks for anyone that takes the time to read it all.

Last edited by Sirisian; 2013-07-14 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 2013-07-09, 03:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #2
GeoGnome
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Re: Resource System Proposal: Feedback Requested


Will read and repost opinion here. (Post reserved)
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Old 2013-07-09, 03:10 PM   [Ignore Me] #3
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Re: Resource System Proposal: Feedback Requested


Wow,

impressive work, and I like almost all of it. (which is saying a lot because I personally don't know if i've agreed with anything you've ever posted before).

I like the larger continent size and agree 100% with the reasoning.
I could never quite figure out what the issue was with the current and several iterations of resource gain/territory control that have gone on in this game. I had always thought it was too idealistic. Tying territories to reduced cost vs nerfed gain is a great way to solve this issue of territory either being meaningless or overly gimping the faction that is on the losing end.

I'm not 100% on the dropping from space thing for the modules. We are talking about Nanites from the planet to maybe a way to pull them from the ground, rather than from mystery space?

I love the huge customizable loadout ideas. I do wonder some about how this affects people who die a lot, or die at a sunder right after spawning... repeatedly.
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This is the last VIP post in this thread.   Old 2013-07-09, 04:02 PM   [Ignore Me] #4
Malorn
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Re: Resource System Proposal: Feedback Requested


Wow that's a ton of stuff! And I thought I wrote a lot!

Some of the core ideas are similar to my general thinking, such as a single resource currency, no-babysitting, engaging/conflict-promoting resource gathering, localized resource impact, and a steer away from territory ownership determining resource income.
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Old 2013-07-09, 05:08 PM   [Ignore Me] #5
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Re: Resource System Proposal: Feedback Requested


a lot of the points are very valid, but the nanite costs per spawn etc. are very much like Dust514 and it has its problems as well.

For one, if your team is pinned, its hard to get resources without farming, and it can be very frustrating, and boring on its own.

Also a lot of the changes you propose, simply wont happen like doubling the size of the continents. Then again, I said a lattice wouldn't happen either, but I am fairly confident this time that doubling the continent size wont happen .

Next, it shouldn't take a PhD to figure out how much you are getting. I know it may not seem as complicated to you, but I had to read many sections twice and still there are some points I am not sure why they needed to exist in the first place.

That said, its very interesting and worth some discussion. Its not perfect, but it has some good points.
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Old 2013-07-09, 07:12 PM   [Ignore Me] #6
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Re: Resource System Proposal: Feedback Requested


I'm reading through it now and jotting down some notes as I go.
These thoughts are not on what you're put forward, but on my reading and understanding of these ideas. If I'm dead wrong on a given point, let me know. I promise not to rage (too much).

The idea of spreading out the objectives. This is mostly an issue on Indar, Amerish and Esamir aren't as crowded.
Areas should be created to allow for a natural ebb and flow of battle between areas. Combat should be encouraged between objectives so that the fights can occur organically throughout the entirety of the continent.

The loyalty system is interesting, but IMO players should always be 'rewarded' with at least some resources. No matter their current loyalty level.
As a personal anecdote, when I PL I may be sitting in the middle of the fight, looking at my map for a minute or two. Does this mean that I'm not contributing to the overall fight? Should I have to place a way point every 15 seconds to ensure I get my tick? What if I go to shoot a MAX and someone runs in front of me as I pull the trigger? No resources because my factionmate is a figwitted idiot? That doesn't sound rewarding. If I was having a bad day then it might be enough to send me into full on 'fucktard' mode and TK/spawn camp that greenie player for all of the next 5 minutes of my play session because they ruined my experience (Experience experience, not XP experience). A BR 1 destroys my lib by crashing into by by accident? Fuck him and his family for wasting my resources! /ragequit (but plenty of verbal abuse in the form of harassment /t before I go so he knows that he done fucked up). Also, there is a stock MAX loadout. For the Tr it's a Pounder and a DC. Sure it costs resources currently, but so do MBTs and Galaxies and you're talking about letting people pull those stock without penalty.

Having just one single resource would help players utilize their individual play style to the utmost. Allowing stock vehicles to be pulled without a real resource drain would be nice for those players who favor vehicle combat. At least they're able to pull something instead of the current nothing.
The only exception I can see to that would be AMSes. Spawn points are simply too important in this game (moreso if inter-objective combat is to be encouraged, where every spawn point is player driven) to be held back by resources.
As for having certification upgrades cost resources to pull, I'm not so sure about that change. Tiering the upgrades could help, but with TTK being what it is, and combat being as chaotic as it is (PS2 infantry combat in particular is the NASCAR of FPS. You win as long as you keep going in 'circles') denying resources goes against the certification process and, I think, would lead to resentment (I certed into this, why can't I use it) instead of pondering the tactical implications.

Whether they choose to pull an upgraded rifle or an upgraded tank it creates a deep sense of meaning for resources and unlocked certs.
This is the crux of what I'm trying to get at. It wouldn't create a deep sense of meaning for unlocked certs. Certs are something that the player has earned. When players no longer have access to something they've earned, they're being punished, not rewarded. From what I'm reading, this system would go against your intended philosophy. Unless I'm reading it wrong, a definite possibility.

Players should never have to resort to only a knife (or absolutely nothing in the case of vehicles) just because there's no engineers and the player is out of resources. Ammo should always be free. 15 seconds is enough to die half a dozen times for an Infantry player, what if the players loyalty level is zero? No ammo for 30 seconds? Longer? Should a player have to redeploy back to the warpgate just to grab ammo? Perhaps returning some of the nanites when reloading from a dropped ammo resupply point?

Min-maxing would mean getting the best weapon for a situation and upgrading it with resources so that it functions as well as it can for that purpose
This only works if the player knows exactly the kind of situation that is going to occur next. Players are not mind readers and should not be punished for adapting to a given situation (Oops, I grabbed a Battle Rifle but now we're going into close quarters combat. Guess that was a waste of resources). The gameplay is much too fluid and changes much too quickly for this to be implemented without causing a great deal of frustration.

The idea of sharing the resource cost between players is an interesting one, but I already get people trying to TK my AMSes and Galaxies simply because they're locked to squad/platoon and they can't get a ride. Even if preference is indicated for the owners I can still see a lot of angry people who can't gun or ride because they didn't pay. I can also see players spending upwards of 5 minutes arguing over what kind of vehicle customizations to bring, simply because they're both paying for it.

Adding countermeasures to the secondary players in a vehicle is quite an idea and sounds like it would help foster teamwork and communication. I'm all for that, especially in MBTs where the gunner is typically just icing on the cake.

Tying the resource efficiency to the gens sounds solid. Bases get weaker as control over parts of them are lost. This also hinders players from moving out prematurely when a base flips.

MODULES! Awesome! Keep in mind with these generators though that base layout/design favors the attacking forces in almost every instance currently in the game. Base design would have to be fixed before the gens/mods go into place.
Upgrading bases with these resources sounds cool and adds some personalization to the base. Care should be taken to acknowledge that different players could want different upgrades. More than one upgrade should be able to be applied at a time. This stops players destroying friendly upgrades that are "wrong", leading to the waste of resources.

Dynamic resource spawning sounds cool. Instead of having them move slowly perhaps displaying their location on the minimap with a 'ping' would work better? Some of us get into the 5-10 FPS range when we get into those huge, equal popped fights you're talking about.

Players able to place towers? Seems ambitious. Will be used for trolling moreso than for tactical purposes, even with a voting system in place. That or towers will never work out because of conflicting resource placement. I love the idea of it though.
I'm still not a fan of artillery in any form. I've seen too much blind firing into facilities in Planetside. Having AA turrets shoot the shells down is an intriguing concept, I will give you that.

Changing the adjacency hack requirements from 100% to 50% could lead to more widespread fighting, to include some shallow (referring to depth, not complexity) behind the lines combat. Ideally this will give smaller, more tactically minded (tactical used in the actual sense of the word) players more objectives and more pull on the battlespace than the larger, strategically orientated outfits.

If tech plants are going to add 10% nanites to adjacent areas then there needs to be a minimum of three per continent with the current continent setup. When cont locking comes into play this idea will be more sound, in my opinion. Ensuring that materiel costs less when pulled from secured, rear echelon areas is a solid idea. I like that very, very much.

My post seems to have more 'negatives' than I was hoping for but let me assure you that the overall idea is, in my mind, sound. Effecting the purchasing power instead of the earning power is a good idea and vein of thought.
Thanks for putting so much thought into this!
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Old 2013-07-09, 08:57 PM   [Ignore Me] #7
GeoGnome
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Re: Resource System Proposal: Feedback Requested


I used a similar loyalty system in my resource proposal.

The criticism I got (No I am not saying that it is something wrong with your system, just saying the response I got, so that you can be aware of it, and have some kind of counter available when and if it comes up) is that a loyalty system would mean punishing "Bad" players. People who were less good at FPS games would get a lower loyalty because they were shooting fewer people, so this system would be preferential to "Good" KDR high players.

Also in my first system, when I brought up infantry draining resources when spawning, the thing I was countered with was that you are going to run the chance of burning through base resources in little to no time with many people's respawn costing resources.

I love your statements up top about tunnels and 16x16 maps.
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Old 2013-07-09, 08:59 PM   [Ignore Me] #8
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Re: Resource System Proposal: Feedback Requested


It's simply too much. Turning things to nanites I agree with completely, but the loyalty system, increasing the map size, and the rest is just too much.

1. I admire the ambition but think of the man hours that would be involved in doubling the size of indar. Now quadrupling it?

2. what does this loyalty system accomplish? Unless I'm misunderstanding the more active you are for your empire the more nanites you earn, and the less active you are the less nanites you earn. Like an ant-idle measure, we already have those.

3. This ties into two. You made everything (practically down to the boxers my soldier wears) cost nanites. Yet again admirable and for the top performing players this works perfectly. What about the non-beastly players? They run out with their nice scope and nade launcher only to get ohked by a sniper. same thing with drawing an esf or tank. Yes it slows the stem of dumb people in tanks but at what cost?

4. Letting players build things is absolutely brilliant. That being said It's an application of the resources and not part of the resources them selves. ( it doesn't belong there) I love the potential but " there's a time and a place"

5. Man hours. A lot of what you're talking about would take months of designing-testing-feedback-redesigning-testing-and more feedback still.

6. All that stuff above having been said well done. some of the core ideas are really good you just need to redesign it. Cut things down to what is actually needed.

I hope I don't come off seeming to critical, I'm doing my best to be constructive yet realistic. Also I am up to debating any of these points calmly and logically.

Last edited by adaroe; 2013-07-09 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 2013-07-09, 10:12 PM   [Ignore Me] #9
Sirisian
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Re: Resource System Proposal: Feedback Requested


If you're still reading, don't worry about my replies. I don't mind if people say the same thing more than once. I'm just collecting ideas and changes.

Originally Posted by Wahooo View Post
I'm not 100% on the dropping from space thing for the modules. We are talking about Nanites from the planet to maybe a way to pull them from the ground, rather than from mystery space?
Well it's up to the designers. I prefer having stuff crash from space aesthetically. Most of the buildings have jet engines on them already so it's believable. I'd go with a compromise. Due to Auraxis deconstructing objects, in my lore explanation, Nanite Systems would construct the building at high altitude using a rocket of nanites. So a rocket would launch from a Warpgate and into the air and detonate nanites which would quickly form the object as it fell. That is you place your order and NS delivers it via rockets.

Originally Posted by Wahooo View Post
I do wonder some about how this affects people who die a lot, or die at a sunder right after spawning... repeatedly.
I'm kind of leaning toward a PS1 system where players spawn in pajamas at least at Sunderers. (Especially for MAX suits). This means if they die they only gain a death.

Regarding Sunderers though. With a vertical upgrade model it makes it easier I think to propose things like shield modules for a Sunderer on top of their AMS capabilities. Allowing overlapping modules is nice in that regard. You equip say cloaking or a shield or 50 extra Nanites to help protect against C4 and give players time to equip their gear at the terminal.

Originally Posted by Rahabib View Post
For one, if your team is pinned, its hard to get resources without farming, and it can be very frustrating, and boring on its own.
This is one issue that's hard to solve even in the current system. If players are pinned and pushed back to their Warpgate they have an efficiency bonus like I said which makes it cheaper for them to pull things. If they're pinned at an objective and outmatched the same thing that happens now will happen. Once you're pushed back to the spawnroom you either make a last ditch effort or pull from another base to attack from the outside. I think you might be right though about not having any resources in certain circumstances. bpostal brought this up also so I'll cover it later, but I agree it's an issue.

If they're not completely pinned and can still pull vehicles I have some suggestions on my site for that like this for getting players out of a base and destroying Sunderers.

Originally Posted by Rahabib View Post
Next, it shouldn't take a PhD to figure out how much you are getting.
It's in the image under loyalty. You see immediately how much you're getting and when you'll get your next amount. A big thing is making the UI work with the system.

Originally Posted by bpostal View Post
The loyalty system is interesting, but IMO players should always be 'rewarded' with at least some resources. No matter their current loyalty level.
When defining the proportional resource gain for loyalty I was trying to figure out if someone should be rewarded for time played. That is going idle at the Warpgate or at a base being captured. Ideally players should have no downtime or feel they need to wait so rewarding them for it wouldn't be constructive. It leads to people going idle waiting for timers and for resources to tick up. If players want resources to upgrade all they'd have to do is heal or repair or do damage to the enemy in anyway. This keeps players generally active. That said, I completely agree with your assessment. How would you feel about a minimum cap of say 200 Nanites. If you drop below that number you would automatically get 1 Nanite a second. Trying to think of a system that wouldn't feel cheap, but would help players sitting at a warpgate trying to push out. Go idle for a minute and you're fully equipped to kill a Sunderer for instance assuming you have 0% loyalty. You'd also need minor changes to other mechanisms. Like over X Nanites to build a tower for Y Nanites. So over 500 Nanites to spend 200 Nanites to place a tower on the map kind of thing. Simple restrictions to help make things sane.

You mentioned it already though and I'll cover it now since it's one of the most controversial parts of what I proposed. Charging people to use the certs they've unlocked.
Originally Posted by bpostal View Post
Certs are something that the player has earned. When players no longer have access to something they've earned, they're being punished, not rewarded.
You can look at it two ways. In the current system players are restricted with exclusive certs. This is most readily seen with suit modules. You can unlock all of them for a class, but you have a restriction on which you can use at any one time. Same for C4 and Mines for an Engineer. For a player that is a grunt and doesn't fly they'd have extra resources and could really specialize with the system I proposed. A light assault with both Flak Armor and Ammunition Belt for instance with 3 C4s and 2 Grenades. So players are already punished for getting exclusive certs. This system isn't necessarily a punishment as it's a way to specialize more and remove pointless exclusive restrictions while placing a more sensible limitation.

Originally Posted by bpostal View Post
As a personal anecdote, when I PL I may be sitting in the middle of the fight, looking at my map for a minute or two. Does this mean that I'm not contributing to the overall fight?
Well are you? If you're out of combat for extended periods your loyalty will begin to tick down. In my example my numbers were that loyalty would drop 1% every 5 seconds. So if you were at 60% loyalty and did nothing for 5 minutes. Didn't resupply, heal, or shoot anything you'd drop to 0%. I mentioned just getting an assist might be 10% which alone takes 50 seconds to go away. It would require testing, but the goal is to keep people in the battle. However, you might be right again. This was brought up before that players going to the Warpgate to jump in a Galaxy would suddenly see their loyalty drop as they plan for a few minutes. How would you feel if you didn't lose loyalty at the Warpgate but didn't get resources while being there? (Other than up to your minimum cap).

On that though this could extend to not getting resources while dead also and having the loyalty lock. The issue there is some players might want their loyalty to drop to gain resources as they wait to pull an awesome loadout. Which brings me back to the idea that it might be preferable to have players not spawn with a loadout so they have more incentive to just spawn and then look at their loadout at a terminal. (Removing it from the main menu). That is the death or spawn screen would only be for spawning essentially and you'd sit at if only if you want to go grab some food and preserve your current loyalty percentage. Getting into a bit of a more complicated redesign though at that point which I've tried to avoid. More special rules makes it more confusing.

Originally Posted by bpostal View Post
Also, there is a stock MAX loadout. For the Tr it's a Pounder and a DC. Sure it costs resources currently, but so do MBTs and Galaxies and you're talking about letting people pull those stock without penalty.
I think I see where the confusion is. "No resource system should cut off a player's ability to purchase certain vehicles." What I meant by that is things like losing the tech plant which block players on the map from pulling MBTs.

MAX units and vehicles would cost resources. Vehicles would have a stock cost like in my Liberator image. It's just that their stock weapons wouldn't cost anything extra over the base cost. The idea of "stock" items refers to certifications that designers determine would be free to use after certification.

Originally Posted by bpostal View Post
This only works if the player knows exactly the kind of situation that is going to occur next. Players are not mind readers and should not be punished for adapting to a given situation (Oops, I grabbed a Battle Rifle but now we're going into close quarters combat. Guess that was a waste of resources). The gameplay is much too fluid and changes much too quickly for this to be implemented without causing a great deal of frustration.
It's not too much difference than the current design. "Oh no I pulled proxy mines and suddenly there's a Sunderer next to me. I wish I had C4." It has one huge advantage though where players are only charged for what they use. On that note because of how the resource system removes restrictions this also means they don't have to be mind readers. If someone is a specialized grunt then they can have multiple C4, Mines, and other deployables on hand if they have the resources. Sure they'd lose them if they die, but they can be ready for any situation if they choose to specialize that way.


Originally Posted by bpostal View Post
Keep in mind with these generators though that base layout/design favors the attacking forces in almost every instance currently in the game. Base design would have to be fixed before the gens/mods go into place.
I mentioned having jump pads to them. It would be a different map. The idea being with larger maps that players would be coming from Sunderers and Galaxies mostly to attack. It would also be up to factions to build their defenses if they want to hold them. Could even have modules to increase the generator delay at a node you don't want to defend well.

Originally Posted by bpostal View Post
This stops players destroying friendly upgrades that are "wrong", leading to the waste of resources.
They're not tangible and each are completely separate. You could have a base with 30 modules installed if it came to that. The only way to destroy them is to take the base. As I mentioned though unfunded modules would have their resources go back to the players so there's no risk defending a base by investing in modules during the last stand.

Originally Posted by bpostal View Post
Players able to place towers? Seems ambitious.
That's added in because of complaints that there aren't enough resource sinks. That and people in other resource threads were talking about base building. I figured a nice compromise is crowd sourced defense. Also to waste that many resources to troll people you would really be hurting your own fun. Well multiple people would be investing a lot.

Originally Posted by bpostal View Post
If tech plants are going to add 10% nanites to adjacent areas then there needs to be a minimum of three per continent with the current continent setup.
The 16x16 km maps assume a rework of bases. I mean you'd be looking at new generators and map designs around their placements. It's not a small change, but is designed as one that could slowly be implemented possibly.

Originally Posted by adaroe View Post
3. This ties into two. You made everything (practically down to the boxers my soldier wears) cost nanites. Yet again admirable and for the top performing players this works perfectly. What about the non-beastly players? They run out with their nice scope and nade launcher only to get ohked by a sniper. same thing with drawing an esf or tank. Yes it slows the stem of dumb people in tanks but at what cost?
I'm thinking about this with the 200 minimum cap. It's important that the average loyalty will be balanced around the average player. So 80% loyalty should be the average. 90-100% would be the top players. I should include an explanation on that.

Originally Posted by adaroe View Post
5. Man hours. A lot of what you're talking about would take months of designing-testing-feedback-redesigning-testing-and more feedback still.
Yeah, most of it has been on my site since last October or in random threads. It's how I initially envisioned PS2 releasing. Compared to the current system it is a huge list of changes, but I think it builds the framework for Planetside 2 to really evolve for the next few years. Especially map and cert wise. Currently their system for certs really limits them to release things that are sidegrades. It's noble, but a resource focused system where everything costs resources allows thousands of more certs to be created and lets player customize for situations. Ammo types are always my favorite example. Having a sniper round that drops a person's shield and blocks it from recharging for 20 seconds as an example. You can easily add a system like that a few years from now by charging players 4 Nanites per round. Suddenly you have players that are specialized snipers draining all their resources on special ammunition. Then you have the resource system built into base building. Tons of ideas there for outfits to customize a base how they want. Things like dropping down their own jump pads to better defend an area or placing tank traps to slow down enemy tanks.

Lot of awesome feedback. I'll be incorporating a lot of this, so thank you and keep it coming. Kind of wanted the devs not to read this yet since it's still just a WIP that might leave bad first impressions of the final goal.

Last edited by Sirisian; 2013-07-09 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 2013-07-09, 11:33 PM   [Ignore Me] #10
Dougnifico
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Re: Resource System Proposal: Feedback Requested


Wow. Ok, my opinion.

1. Size increase of continents is a win. More open ground with a feel closer to PS1 would be amazing. I support this 100%. Some roads can stay, but not everything should be connected. Another advantage is that by spacing out players, many would probably see an increase in performance. Increase in scale with an increase in performance? Yes. This should be an idea SOE considers heavily. Current continents can be updated at a later time and terrain can be inserted to "stretch" the maps.

2. United resource pool is what seems to be what everyone is going towards. I can get behind this. I haven't been the biggest advocate, but I am certainly not a detractor.

3. The loyalty system is a pretty good idea. It will require some balancing so that I can take a bio-break without any major penalty, but it will really encourage team play and support roles. I'm in.

4. One thing I will disagree with you on is your proposal for weapons upgrades. Vehicles are more understandable. I do not believe that weapon attachments should cost resources. Some people die quite a bit and would be forced to play with stock options. This would also make frequent infantry death inhibit a player's ability to pull vehicles and specialized gear. I do not support this.

5. Generator nodes and modules that players can collectively buy into to increase efficiency is a great idea. It will be difficult to balance this against the zerg, but its another this that encourages teamwork and a sense of community.

6. Random events would be a great idea, but at the current time I don't think that is a valid option simply because of the technical strain. Many computers are struggling to run the game as is. A couple years down the road with increase optimization and this will be a winning idea.

Overall a win. I only have the one detraction. Otherwise, this is amazing.
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Old 2013-07-10, 02:58 AM   [Ignore Me] #11
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Re: Resource System Proposal: Feedback Requested


Holy crud, that was a good read. I really enjoy a lot of the ideas you've put forward!

I'm not sure how much fun it would be to have to constantly micromanage my resources for every different loadout change, but I like the idea of spending resources on spawn. I just wouldn't want to be 5 nanites short of being able to equip my usual gun.
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Old 2013-07-10, 08:26 AM   [Ignore Me] #12
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Re: Resource System Proposal: Feedback Requested


Originally Posted by Sirisian View Post
ok, i admit TLR
but i scrolled through and ended up at your analysis of TTK.
and i have to say, that´s a very detailed and exact analysis of the problem!

for me this is the biggest problem planetside 2 has.
the low ttk that takes away any tactical options once the enemy is near.
who shoots first wins. no matter what weapon you are using.

in small map arena games a low ttk is no problem because you are back to what you were doing before you died in seconds. but in a game where it takes a long time to get to the fight and where you have to wait for ressourcegain before you can pull your vehicle or max again, a fast death always sucks.

and 99% of my deaths feel like being one hit instagibbed.

i would say increase all hitpoints by at least 100-200%
then do another balance pass and you have enough range to balance the weapons properly and maybe the faction perks would finally work.
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Old 2013-07-10, 10:26 AM   [Ignore Me] #13
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Re: Resource System Proposal: Feedback Requested


^NO! As in NO we are not bringing this subject back up!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEMimY0HyUk

This will take us to a very very dark place. Lets stick to resources... lol
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Old 2013-07-10, 05:04 PM   [Ignore Me] #14
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Re: Resource System Proposal: Feedback Requested


Originally Posted by Sirisian View Post
When defining the proportional resource gain for loyalty I was trying to figure out if someone should be rewarded for time played. That is going idle at the Warpgate or at a base being captured. Ideally players should have no downtime or feel they need to wait so rewarding them for it wouldn't be constructive. It leads to people going idle waiting for timers and for resources to tick up. If players want resources to upgrade all they'd have to do is heal or repair or do damage to the enemy in anyway. This keeps players generally active. That said, I completely agree with your assessment. How would you feel about a minimum cap of say 200 Nanites. If you drop below that number you would automatically get 1 Nanite a second. Trying to think of a system that wouldn't feel cheap, but would help players sitting at a warpgate trying to push out. Go idle for a minute and you're fully equipped to kill a Sunderer for instance assuming you have 0% loyalty. You'd also need minor changes to other mechanisms. Like over X Nanites to build a tower for Y Nanites. So over 500 Nanites to spend 200 Nanites to place a tower on the map kind of thing. Simple restrictions to help make things sane.

You mentioned it already though and I'll cover it now since it's one of the most controversial parts of what I proposed. Charging people to use the certs they've unlocked.
Adding a minimum nanite level would help so that players don't feel overly constrained. A delicate balance must be struck to ensure that this minimum level doesn't eradicate the purpose of the system entirely whilst still allowing for misfortune and the random act of idiocy. Dialing the cost back at the warpgate is a good compromise. Players shouldn't feel the need to always recall back to the warpgate in order to pull their gear but if they do then there is a cost associated with it, typically the time investment of recalling and then going all the way back to the fight.

Originally Posted by Sirisian View Post
You can look at it two ways. In the current system players are restricted with exclusive certs. This is most readily seen with suit modules. You can unlock all of them for a class, but you have a restriction on which you can use at any one time. Same for C4 and Mines for an Engineer. For a player that is a grunt and doesn't fly they'd have extra resources and could really specialize with the system I proposed. A light assault with both Flak Armor and Ammunition Belt for instance with 3 C4s and 2 Grenades. So players are already punished for getting exclusive certs. This system isn't necessarily a punishment as it's a way to specialize more and remove pointless exclusive restrictions while placing a more sensible limitation.
More specialization is always a plus but again, care must be taken so that the power balance between a BR 1 and a BR 100 isn't insurmountable. This may also require a look into the certification system as well to address pricing. As you've said, it's controversial to be sure.

Originally Posted by Sirisian View Post
Well are you? If you're out of combat for extended periods your loyalty will begin to tick down. In my example my numbers were that loyalty would drop 1% every 5 seconds. So if you were at 60% loyalty and did nothing for 5 minutes. Didn't resupply, heal, or shoot anything you'd drop to 0%. I mentioned just getting an assist might be 10% which alone takes 50 seconds to go away. It would require testing, but the goal is to keep people in the battle. However, you might be right again. This was brought up before that players going to the Warpgate to jump in a Galaxy would suddenly see their loyalty drop as they plan for a few minutes. How would you feel if you didn't lose loyalty at the Warpgate but didn't get resources while being there? (Other than up to your minimum cap).

On that though this could extend to not getting resources while dead also and having the loyalty lock. The issue there is some players might want their loyalty to drop to gain resources as they wait to pull an awesome loadout. Which brings me back to the idea that it might be preferable to have players not spawn with a loadout so they have more incentive to just spawn and then look at their loadout at a terminal. (Removing it from the main menu). That is the death or spawn screen would only be for spawning essentially and you'd sit at if only if you want to go grab some food and preserve your current loyalty percentage. Getting into a bit of a more complicated redesign though at that point which I've tried to avoid. More special rules makes it more confusing.
Having the loyalty drop at such a rate would still allow for PLs to focus on leading instead of having to engage in combat solely for the purpose of ensuring loyalty. Due to the pacing of combat in larger facilities there may still be an issue, say when the SCU goes down and there is no combat to be had but still several minutes on the cap. 'Locking' loyalty in when a player is at the warpgate is a good idea and would discourage camping. Personally I think a severely reduced resource gain instead of none would be preferable though.
If you remove the loadout options from the respawn screen, what would happen to those who squad deploy or drop on a beacon? Would they be stuck in PJs or their previous loadout?

Originally Posted by Sirisian View Post
I think I see where the confusion is. "No resource system should cut off a player's ability to purchase certain vehicles." What I meant by that is things like losing the tech plant which block players on the map from pulling MBTs.

MAX units and vehicles would cost resources. Vehicles would have a stock cost like in my Liberator image. It's just that their stock weapons wouldn't cost anything extra over the base cost. The idea of "stock" items refers to certifications that designers determine would be free to use after certification.
Ah okay, thanks for the clarification. As an aside, would you support an initial increased cost (perhaps not just for MAX suits?) at AMSes?

Originally Posted by Sirisian View Post
It's not too much difference than the current design. "Oh no I pulled proxy mines and suddenly there's a Sunderer next to me. I wish I had C4." It has one huge advantage though where players are only charged for what they use. On that note because of how the resource system removes restrictions this also means they don't have to be mind readers. If someone is a specialized grunt then they can have multiple C4, Mines, and other deployables on hand if they have the resources. Sure they'd lose them if they die, but they can be ready for any situation if they choose to specialize that way.
I suppose I can see that. It's a higher risk/reward and encourages specialization. I still wouldn't charge full cost for gear that gets switched out if that would fit in with your design philosophy.

Originally Posted by Sirisian View Post
They're not tangible and each are completely separate. You could have a base with 30 modules installed if it came to that. The only way to destroy them is to take the base. As I mentioned though unfunded modules would have their resources go back to the players so there's no risk defending a base by investing in modules during the last stand.
Alright. I was envisioning a Planetside style control console where a hacker could only put on one virus at a time. This is much more like the module system (hence the name I suppose). What about the addition of (yet) another gen, or tying the mods to a current gen (perhaps the SCU?) so that mods can be temporarily disabled? Especially since you refer to a redesign of the bases, which I assume to mean the addition of better flow and defensibility correct?
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Old 2013-07-10, 08:44 PM   [Ignore Me] #15
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Re: Resource System Proposal: Feedback Requested


Some very cool ideas!
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