MAX Balnace Part 4: Everything AI - Page 2

MrMak · 2013-07-06, 06:17 PM

Those diferences are less than a second at close ranges except for the grinder.

Should also be noted that Scattercannons and Mattocks with extended mags would probalby have similar TTK to the grinder while the VS and TR guns would brarely benefit that much since their reloads are faster andm from what ive seenm they usualy use one mag anyway.

Also seems peculiar the Mattock without slugs actualy outpreforms everything except the Blueshift at 15 meters by a good margin.

They could use some minor tweaking to do a little extra damage agaisnt maxes but apart from that they are far from useless especialy in their neiche.

War Barney · 2013-07-06, 06:30 PM

In this game a second makes a big difference and these are done without zealot or hunker down which would improve the TTK even further. How can you take these figures shows the NC MAX is worthless at all but point blank (and even at point blank out performed in a lot of areas) and try to say its not so bad?

ChipMHazard · 2013-07-06, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by War Barney

In this game a second makes a big difference and these are done without zealot or hunker down which would improve the TTK even further. How can you take these figures shows the NC MAX is worthless at all but point blank (and even at point blank out performed in a lot of areas) and try to say its not so bad?

You won't get anywhere by exaggerating. It's not worthless when you get outside of close range, it's just not as effective.
Are they good enough at range? No, but then again I also think they are too good close up against infantry.

maradine · 2013-07-06, 06:38 PM

I'm having difficulty understanding how NC max weaponry is so allegedly underpowered and yet the same weaponry is the primary statistical killer on the ground. You don't get to start a post with "DAMN YOUR STATISTICS I DECLARE THEM INVALID" with much hope of not raising a few eyebrows. This incongruity needs to be explained before I take any of this seriously.

MrMak · 2013-07-06, 06:47 PM

A second yes. Heck the 3 or so seconds granted by the grinder (and likely scattergun with extended mags) at close range are pretty significant. But 0.3 doesnt realy make much of adifference. The first person to fire will win with such a low TTK difference anyway. And thats excluding a whole bunch of other variables you see in an actual fight

If oyu want to take the ZOE and Lockdown into account you also have to take the Aegis and the ZOE damage penalty into acocunt aswell.

How much ZOE affects the time it takes to kill the VS needs to be tested.

Same with the Aegis. But so far from my experiance even at just level 2 it can abosrb and impressive ammount of small arms fire. with this in mind, depending on the range you could even use the Aegis to get up close and personal, and even behind a lockdown MAX.

Never actualy did it on acount that I rarely run into a lockdown max that doesnt have an entire squad backing it up. In which case the TR either have an overwhelming force locking down the building or a massive push just wipes them out and I dont realy have to do it scince he is usualy dead or retreating by the time I would get to him.

You should also take Slug ammunition into acocunt. Especialy with the Mattock which seems pretty darn good at range even without them.

War Barney · 2013-07-06, 07:10 PM

Those statistics people like to use include all kills from every single point in the games life, get us stats for the last week and lets see how they stack up. This is one of the major issues with this game and what will lead to its death before its time if it aint stopped, people who want a easy ride so will deny even in the face of facts that something is underpowered if its on the enemy side.

And MrMak if he does that he needs to take zealot into account and hunker down which improves the TTK for your MAXs a LOT more than slugs will affect ours trust me. If you want it to happen though I'm sure he will be happy to show how insanely good your guns are with those abilities compared to our shield.

And please try using our MAX shield before you say its good compared to the immense killing power other MAX abilities give them, hunker down can make a MAX a absolutely terrifying AA turret or able to completely shutdown access to a room. Sure the shield can take a lot of damage but they put out no damage while its up and a hunkered down TR MAX will take it down fast enough.

MrMak · 2013-07-06, 07:37 PM

I love how you keep exagerating everything out of propeortions. Especialy how that 15% (At Max Rank) fire rate boost for bursters makes the lockdown MAX "absolutely terrifying". All while completly dismissing any weeknesses the enemy may have. Its realy classic forumside when you think about it.

And a proper test is not ZOE and Lockdown vs Slugs. Its ZOE vs Lockdown vs Aegis and then slugs having the same tests done as all the other guns along with all the guns being tested with extended mags.

NC maxes dont need "fixing" becouse they are not "broken". The only thing that they might need is slight tweaking against other MAXes and a fire rate buff to the hacksaw. And even THAT needs more extensive testing than just shooting buckshot at up to 20 meters.

Edit: Did some quick testing.

Slugs bring the TTK down to about 10 seconds at 20 meters for the Mattock and 11ish for the Scattergun.

Also Extended mags bring point blank TTK for both the Scattergun and Mattock to the same level as the grinder. The reson the Grindar has such a big difference is that it has 2 extra shots which enable it to kill an enemy MAX without relaoding. Extended mags give the same aility to the Scattercangun Mattock and even Hacksaw boostign their point blank TTK to the point where the other MAXes cant even compete.

maradine · 2013-07-06, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by War Barney

Those statistics people like to use include all kills from every single point in the games life, get us stats for the last week and lets see how they stack up.

That would be a good explanation.

Wahooo · 2013-07-06, 08:06 PM

There is no equivalent cert to slugs. You know why? The devs recognized the need for shotguns to be useful beyond point blank. Therefore slugs, and the reason there is no equivalent cert for VS/TR.

Barney it doesn't help your case when you rail on and on in an over the top manner. "Worthless" doesn't help your case. They are far from worthless.

Also I keep seeing on and on about TR lockdown. Really? Barney, how about this before you mention lock down again, get on a TR max and start using it versus infantry/maxes... preferably against your weak ass NC and let us know how it goes. drone on about other people not being informed and yet you keep repeating the most ignorant, uninformed, shit out your ass statements.

War Barney · 2013-07-06, 08:52 PM

*facepalm* I have tested it out, its great! Oh and I think we all know its not just a boost to rpm its also a 50% reload speed increaser. Don't forget one of its most amazing features in your big to stop NC MAXs being fixed.

bpostal · 2013-07-07, 02:36 AM

Originally Posted by bpostal

...
Math and numbers exist in a vacuum, experience does not.

I'm going to clarify this statement because the underlying conclusion I've reached seems to have been missed.

Fights between MAXes is, for a vast majority of the time, supported by engineers, medics and more MAX units. The math itself is, I'm sure, spot on (or as close to it as it's going to get).

Thus, the TTK that one needs to figure in is not simply 1v1 but the time to kill for each and every single person in the fight. How fast can a MAX clear a room? Math isn't going to help unless all factors are taken into consideration. Even if you think just about the abilities: You can't use Aegis shield without getting shot in the back. You can't use Lockdown (a much more worthless and situational ability than I thought when I first heard we were getting it) without getting C4'd by some MERC. You can't use ZOE without every single motherfucker who can see you shooting at you.

The math is assuming a vacuum, a fair fight. Fair fights don't exist in this game. The simple fact is that at very close ranges the ScatMAX is still close to instagib whilst absolute shit beyond that range.
If this means that the NC MAX is absolutely terrible then you need to take into account the fact that when you're playing the objective, you're talking close quarters infantry combat for a majority of the time. This gives the NC MAX the advantage (Unless Fractures TBH) when defending, and when used in conjunction with MAX Charge, assaulting.

I have no math, I have little to no facts. Just the truth as I see it. This truth, is that all factions have their ups and downs and balance is always ongoing.

MrMak · 2013-07-07, 04:25 AM

Hate to break this to ya Barney. But at close range an NC MAX with Grinderes or extended mags still has lower TTK than Heavy cycler max on lockdown. As far as MAXes are concerned, lockdown only shaves off about a second from the TTK.

Oh and before you come up and say thet if you put extended mags on the Heavy Cyclers its gonna destroy the NC MAX.....it odesnt matter. Most VS and TR AI weapons are able to kill a MAX up close without reloading so extended Mags have no bearing on TTK like they do for the NC MAXes.

VS and TR may have a higher killing totential per mag and more sustained fireopower. But then it comes to simply killing something fast, NC is king.

blashyrk · 2013-07-07, 04:32 AM

NC MAXes are godly when it comes to defending and attacking control points (at least ones which are indoors which is most of the control points in the game), especially in biolabs.

I understand that NC players feel bad about their MAXes lacking variety but I think they take for granted the extreme CQC force multiplayer that is the NC MAX. And if it ever gets buffed for medium range because of "The grass is greener" syndrome (and that would also require it to get nerfed in CQC encounters) I think they would actually be at a loss.

SternLX · 2013-07-07, 05:10 AM

Sorry, I don't play Excelspreadsheetside.

Experience is the name of my game and I can tell you this as a VS MAX driver. I see an NC MAX to this day while suited up in my MAX, I keep my distance. ZOE OFF and back the hell up! Get ready for the MAX Rush. Sure enough NC MAX driver rushes while I keep pouring fire in his direction, flip ZOE on and Side strafe away very quickly if possible. Whether I have ZOE on or not makes no diff. If the NC MAX gets within 10 to 15m I'm done. Period. The only way I can last for any Length of time is to run full Kinetic Armor. But most of us opt for Flak because of C4 trolls and Rocket launcher noobs.

Wahooo · 2013-07-07, 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by War Barney

*facepalm* I have tested it out, .

I call bullshit. VR doesn't count.

I've played YEARS of TR max with lock down. It is very situational and the downside to the mobility can be out right rage inducing if you are caught at the wrong time.