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Old 2013-08-12, 03:05 PM   [Ignore Me] #136
Galium
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Re: The Oracle of Death


Bless us, O Oracle, with knowledge, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. Bless us, O Oracle, with the knowledge of pistols.
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Old 2013-08-12, 03:15 PM   [Ignore Me] #137
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Re: The Oracle of Death


Originally Posted by maradine View Post
KPU - Kills per unique killer - weapon's production divided by its apparent popularity
KPU isn't really relevant as a way to know if a weapon is useful. What I'd like to know is the average kills per hour, using the same Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4 system.
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Old 2013-08-12, 03:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #138
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Re: The Oracle of Death


Originally Posted by Goldoche View Post
KPU isn't really relevant as a way to know if a weapon is useful. What I'd like to know is the average kills per hour, using the same Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4 system.
KPU is no more or less relevant to weapon usefulness than kills per hour. It's just an alternative method of attempting to remove popularity from production - a different denominator necessitated by the kill-centric approach used here. I could just as easily provide the same data hourly, but what would it mean? The data is only useful compared to something. Inside of a like weapon comparison, you're still getting a valid result.

Supplemental, hourly data has its own procedural flaws - specifically, that you're not tracking combat time, but equipped time as reported by the character object, which includes a whole lot of down time. Does it all even out? Yes - but, that's my point. When you compare two weapons with the same method over the same parameters and get very different results, you've learned something.

TL'DR - if you want kills per hour, I think ps2-stats.com will service you nicely!
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Old 2013-08-12, 04:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #139
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Re: The Oracle of Death


What's the deaths per second processing rate?
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Old 2013-08-12, 05:06 PM   [Ignore Me] #140
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Re: The Oracle of Death


About 13 a second at the moment. Fluctuates with the global peaks from about 7 to about 25.
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Old 2013-08-12, 06:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #141
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Re: The Oracle of Death


Oracle of Death,
Is it possible to get a update to the earlier posted ESF nose guns and rockets with battle rank quadrants included? Also it is fascinating to see the effect Strikers seem to have on ESF and Liberator Stats. Is it possible to get a break down on all the different rocket launchers? Apologies if I have missed it in a earlier post.

I haven't seen this noted as well, though it may be implicitly understood. Weapons with low numbers of unique users (~100-200 or less) are far more susceptible to kpu skewing due specialization and mastery choices of the players tending to choose to use them. I thought this should be stated explicitly. Thank you very much for your work, this is a much needed tool for the planetside universe
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Old 2013-08-12, 06:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #142
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Re: The Oracle of Death


Funny you should mention that . . .



Original at http://bit.ly/120xwIq

So, the big mystery here - why do single-purpose lock-on launcher operators tend to be less productive at higher BRs? Despite the opposite being true everywhere else?

Last edited by maradine; 2013-08-12 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 2013-08-12, 06:51 PM   [Ignore Me] #143
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Re: The Oracle of Death


Originally Posted by maradine View Post
KPU is no more or less relevant to weapon usefulness than kills per hour. It's just an alternative method of attempting to remove popularity from production - a different denominator necessitated by the kill-centric approach used here. I could just as easily provide the same data hourly, but what would it mean?
People seem to use your data to prove that X weapon is OP and that Y and Z weapons are UP while like you said, KPU is only an indicator of popularity and not performance. If it's something you could add easily you should definitely do it.

ps2-stats.com kinda sucks unfortunately because it doesn't provide enough data. There used to be a nice google doc that provided kills per hour graphics, server stats, faction stats, vehicle performance and lots of other interesting information but it went down a few months ago.
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Old 2013-08-12, 07:02 PM   [Ignore Me] #144
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Re: The Oracle of Death


Originally Posted by exohkay View Post
I don't think anyone is saying specifically this. There are avenues where TR are outperforming the other factions rather drastically, and there are certain areas where VS are outperforming.

We're asking for these to be remedied.

Balance is a two way street, when statistics indicated Mags were the best tank, when ZOE was the best option (and perhaps still is).
yeah i know, but i was referring to the first pages with the fractures and the strikers, i didn't bother to read the other 7 pages
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Old 2013-08-12, 07:08 PM   [Ignore Me] #145
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Re: The Oracle of Death


Originally Posted by maradine View Post
Funny you should mention that . . .



Original at http://bit.ly/120xwIq

So, the big mystery here - why do single-purpose lock-on launcher operators tend to be less productive at higher BRs? Despite the opposite being true everywhere else?
Maybe the reason for copy-paste lock-ons (not Striker) getting worse KPU with higher BR is the fact that those weapons are not based on the skill of the user but of the target? That or maybe with higher BR the more skilled a player is and the more they use cover, height, and positioning than lower BR players and those launchers don't work in those conditions (lots of things to break LOS) and favor standing in the open like an idiot.

I see the Striker and the Anni as the odd men out with lock-ons. Striker gets a little better with BR, but has dips as well seen in Q3. But the Anni never changes in KPU no matter the BR. VERY odd with these 2 and Im betting that the short lock timer of the Striker is a main reason for it's KPU numbers with BR compared to the other lock-on weapons.

Another thing I see is player counts. NC and VS have a clear pattern to their launchers with stock being most used and something of a tug of war for the rest with some gaps to account for taste and what not. But TR launcher users are FAR out of sync.

Striker has 3.2K users and only 664 for both of TRs G2G and G2A! That is fucking wrong if you ask me. Even if the Striker isn't OP in KPU according to these numbers the shear amount of Striker users shows that it is clearly the best and maybe only option for the common TR HA grunt. I wold bet that there are so many Striker users that they are fighting each other for kills on top of low skilled players tanking the KPU.

I see no reason to use another launcher other than the Striker if you're TR unless you are wanting use rockets indoors on infantry or MAXes. Even burster MAXes and AA secondary vehicle weapons aren't needed for TR with the number of Strikers, freeing up those units for AV or AI roles.

Damn it, Im starting to get into balance talk. Sorry about that.
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Old 2013-08-12, 07:17 PM   [Ignore Me] #146
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Re: The Oracle of Death


Originally Posted by Goldoche View Post
People seem to use your data to prove that X weapon is OP and that Y and Z weapons are UP while like you said, KPU is only an indicator of popularity and not performance. If it's something you could add easily you should definitely do it.
Not quite - KPU is performance divided by popularity.

Consider a 24 hour global pull across all servers from two fictional MAX arms.

The ZN-99 BoatMurderer scores 10,000 kills from 5,000 individual people using it.
The AX-Y-U-MAD also scores 10,000 kills, but from only 2,500 individual people using it.

The ZN has a KPU of 2.0. The AX has a KPU of 4.0. Clearly, something is very different about these two weapons, or their wielders. The wielders are averaged out by the Law of Large Numbers - while it is technically possible, it is very unlikely that the ZN wielders are, on average, two times as skillful and productive as the AX wielders. Therefore, there is a likely incongruity between the effectiveness of the ZN and the AX.

People shouldn't get upset over small differences in KPU, especially this early in the Oracle's data set. Probably worthwhile pointing out here that I consider <10% "small". Large differences, however, point to potential imbalances. This isn't necessarily a bad thing - I like factional asymmetric balance, personally. The point of this project is to identify what those are, and have a discussion around how they effect the game.

Originally Posted by Chewy View Post
Damn it, Im starting to get into balance talk. Sorry about that.
No worries, mate. Interesting call on the lock-ons - that's plausible.

Last edited by maradine; 2013-08-12 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 2013-08-12, 08:02 PM   [Ignore Me] #147
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Re: The Oracle of Death


Originally Posted by maradine View Post
Not quite - KPU is performance divided by popularity.

Consider a 24 hour global pull across all servers from two fictional MAX arms.

The ZN-99 BoatMurderer scores 10,000 kills from 5,000 individual people using it.
The AX-Y-U-MAD also scores 10,000 kills, but from only 2,500 individual people using it.

The ZN has a KPU of 2.0. The AX has a KPU of 4.0. Clearly, something is very different about these two weapons, or their wielders. The wielders are averaged out by the Law of Large Numbers - while it is technically possible, it is very unlikely that the ZN wielders are, on average, two times as skillful and productive as the AX wielders. Therefore, there is a likely incongruity between the effectiveness of the ZN and the AX.

People shouldn't get upset over small differences in KPU, especially this early in the Oracle's data set. Probably worthwhile pointing out here that I consider <10% "small". Large differences, however, point to potential imbalances. This isn't necessarily a bad thing - I like factional asymmetric balance, personally. The point of this project is to identify what those are, and have a discussion around how they effect the game.

The problem with your analysis is that there's nothing that proves that the 2 hypothetical weapons were used just as long. For example, the ZN could be a very good weapon stat-wise but the devs botched the model and textures. Players got 2 quick kills on average with it and switched to something else. The AX on the other hand could be an UP weapon but with fantastic effects, textures and model. Players prefer to us it even if its stats suck. It could have an individual player 2, 3, 4 times as much time to equalize the amount of kills he could have got with the ZN.

An example you provided in your stats page to prove my point is the low KPU for lock-ons on high BR players compared to low BRs. I suspect that high BR players prefer to use a RL with a higher skill ceiling. Lock-on weapons are popular among low BRs because they're easy to use, so low BRs have a higher KPU with them. If you'd search the data for the average kills per hour used for each BR-tier, the data would probably prove my point by showing more constant data across skill tiers.

Last edited by Goldoche; 2013-08-12 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 2013-08-12, 08:47 PM   [Ignore Me] #148
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Re: The Oracle of Death


Originally Posted by maradine View Post
Funny you should mention that . . .
So, the big mystery here - why do single-purpose lock-on launcher operators tend to be less productive at higher BRs? Despite the opposite being true everywhere else?
If many high BR players feel that single-purpose lock-on launchers are a not very useful option when compared to multi-purpose lock-on launchers, then the only high BR users that would use those items would be those that are not very effective at killing things.

It may also be a use case scenario, ie: "What does a high BR player pull a lock-on launcher for" and the answer to that may be that the multi-purpose launchers better suit that purpose.

In which case, it's more like "A high BR launcher doesn't feel that he needs to use a lock-on launcher, but if he chooses to, it's because he wants to accomplish X" and X is better served with a multi-purpose lock-on launcher.

Last edited by Rakthar; 2013-08-12 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 2013-08-12, 09:39 PM   [Ignore Me] #149
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Re: The Oracle of Death


Originally Posted by Goldoche View Post
The problem with your analysis is that there's nothing that proves that the 2 hypothetical weapons were used just as long. For example, the ZN could be a very good weapon stat-wise but the devs botched the model and textures. Players got 2 quick kills on average with it and switched to something else. The AX on the other hand could be an UP weapon but with fantastic effects, textures and model. Players prefer to us it even if its stats suck. It could have an individual player 2, 3, 4 times as much time to equalize the amount of kills he could have got with the ZN.
Those effects wash out over large numbers of players, and over large periods of time. The guy that can't stand crappy texture won't be coming back to pollute the numbers anymore. If you really, really want a per hour number, I re-iterate: Divide the kill number by what you see at the bottom of the readout, "hours", or hit up ps2-stats. I am not doing the same analysis.
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Old 2013-08-12, 10:56 PM   [Ignore Me] #150
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Re: The Oracle of Death


Originally Posted by GS Ourous View Post
Oracle of Death, any chance I could get the per-hour data for MBT's and Lightnings?
Not to nag or anything, but have I been forgotten?
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