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View Poll Results: What do you identify yourself as?
Atheist/Skeptic/Agnostic 151 70.89%
Catholic 21 9.86%
Protestant 24 11.27%
Jewish 5 2.35%
Muslim 2 0.94%
Philisophy (Such as Buddhism) 10 4.69%
Voters: 213. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 2012-06-06, 08:34 AM   [Ignore Me] #676
Warborn
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Re: Religion


So you think people who are schizophrenic and commit a murder or something should be charged the same as if you or I committed a murder?

Just for reference.

People who have things wrong with their brains are at the mercy of their pathology. Acting as if someone with brain damage is just as responsible for their actions as you or I is profoundly ignorant of just what it means to be living with brain damage for some people.
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Old 2012-06-06, 11:28 AM   [Ignore Me] #677
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Re: Religion


Pedophiles are at the mercy of their brains too, does your logic juju cover them too?
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Old 2012-06-06, 12:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #678
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Re: Religion


Does a lion deserve punishment if it kills someone?
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Old 2012-06-06, 05:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #679
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Warborn View Post
So you think people who are schizophrenic and commit a murder or something should be charged the same as if you or I committed a murder?

Just for reference.

People who have things wrong with their brains are at the mercy of their pathology. Acting as if someone with brain damage is just as responsible for their actions as you or I is profoundly ignorant of just what it means to be living with brain damage for some people.
Not quite, next to doing time, they should be treated for psychological problems. Preferably time should be done AFTER they got treated. You can't however excuse them. There are also cases where someone got away with murder by acting mentally insane. (And let's not talk about dictators that suddenly become too ill to be prosecuted, different situation of course).

Furthermore, if it's un- or poorly treatable, they should be institutionalised by definition, since they'd be a danger to themselves and others. It does NOT mean I'd be more emphatic for them. And while being treated, they should be in a locked-in environment. Too often people get out of these institutes and murder or rape someone because of low security, getting out under supervision and escaping, etc.

Just because the solution and punishment/treatment differs doesn't mean I feel more sympathy for them. What is fair and reasonable/optimal way of dealing with the situation doesn't have to have anything to do with sympathy.

Last edited by Figment; 2012-06-06 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 2012-06-06, 05:20 PM   [Ignore Me] #680
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by elfailo View Post
It's getting quite ridiculous with the comparisons now. Duke is possibly a troll, possibly has a damaged brain, possibly someone who can't handle alcohol, and possibly just very dumb, or a combination of all. If any of these things could even be considered crimes, they wouldn't even come close to massacring 6 million **** or raping a kid.
That's the thing. You don't get the nuance. You automatically default the godwinning by going for the order of a supposed crime. I was talking about the mental state of Hitler excusing his capacity to make a choice, what he actually did is irrelevant for the comparison: he had the capacity to make a choice and made irrational choices, next to complex strategic choices.

I'm saying both he and Duke are well aware of the choice they make, they just don't want to see the rationale behind those choices aren't exactly... "well done". They're both caught in irrational logic, fear and anger.

I can't muster sympathy for either of these trains of thought, which they are fully in control of, but too biased and self-important to actually apply correctly, objectively and fairly.


So no Elcyco, not every comparison with WWII is a Godwin. That's you being biased and making yourself off easy with not having to deal with the rationale behind the argument.


Why do you think I chose that? Because I knew you would go for the godwinning default defense (seen you do it before). That's a choice to ignore input, it's not because you've been wired wrong.

Last edited by Figment; 2012-06-06 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 2012-06-06, 06:53 PM   [Ignore Me] #681
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Re: Religion


Every point yes.

One in 500 posts though?

No. Then it's just you who blocks the information by choice. This is what Duke does (and most religious people) and tbh you're doing it by playing the "oh please don't godwin me" card tbh.


As said before, the religious people I've got more sympathy for are those that actually thought out their argument and actually debate and evaluate. Even if they're wrong then, they're not simply going "I'm right, why won't you convert damnit, clearly you want to be converted cause I'm right and you're argueing with me!?" like Duke does.

I can simply not bring up any sympathy or respect for this attitude and that's the point I was making: took someone I was pretty sure of you could not get much sympathy for. Of course, I could have gone for Khadaffi as well. Same thing really.
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Old 2012-06-06, 07:52 PM   [Ignore Me] #682
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by elfailo View Post
So the example of a guy with an 80 IQ you brought up earlier, would that change anything regarding your disposition? I mean that with regard to the person holding the opinion, not the opinion itself, which we evidently both agree is garbage.

Understanding that someone is simply incapable of understanding, no matter how hard they try, would not change anything for you?

The larger question is probably more interesting anyway; Just how 'free' is free will?
Dumb is dumb. There are degrees of dumb, but an idea that's completely irratic is not dumber with one person than with another.

Someone with an intellect of 160 making an incredibly dumb statement is - on that subject - not getting more or less sympathy from me than someone with an IQ of 12 making the same statement. That wouldn't be fair.

So no, again, their mental condition wouldn't affect anything at all because that's not what I'm a debate for to judge. If I do that, you stop taking the other's person's argument serious and I find that disrespectful.

That's one of the reasons I'm actually returning people like Duke with an argumented, though irritated opinion: just saying people are making a fool out of themselves without argument would be acting just as dismissive as they are and trolling.

Argueing why people are making a fool out of themselves gives you the right to use (strong) qualifications, IMO. But when I do, those only apply on this subject. Typically you'll find they can act completely normal on other topics, just incredibly childish and self-protective on topics that determine their very morals and ethics.

It wouldn't be right to excuse someone from making dumb remarks just because they're dumb (then they shouldn't make such remarks in the first place - I'd like to say have them the right to vote revoked... tbh, if there was a non-subjective test for that) or excusing some child hitting another kid in school because he has such cute puppy dog eyes.
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Old 2012-06-06, 11:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #683
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Re: Religion


If anything is going to end us it's going to be religion... You might say it's our global personality disorder.
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Old 2012-06-07, 02:08 PM   [Ignore Me] #684
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml View Post
Ah... And here comes the philisophical debate between animals. Place a higher being in their midst (like say, 150 years ago) and they behave... Now they justify and manipulate atrocity with brain disfunction or personallity disorders.

Human intellect... our damn opposable thumbs will be the end of us.
So wait you just said humans are animals? Good. You're getting somewhere.
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Old 2012-06-07, 02:23 PM   [Ignore Me] #685
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by elfailo View Post
It would make it a lot more excusable to me in this particular case (presuming it's true). Dumb remarks remain dumb remarks regardless of who makes them, but without any context or history it wouldn't even be possible to tell whether they're dumb (i.e. a product of stupidity) at all.
I tend to qualify dumb on a statement by statement basis, much easier.

There's a reason why certain mentally ill criminals (such as schizophrenics acting on hallucinations) get less severe punishments. They're presumed to have been incapable of proper judgment. Picture a guy with a very strong recurring hallucination of his deceased wife telling him that someone he knows is trying to kill her, that he must kill that person to save her, and so he does it. Would that circumstantial fact not alter how you feel about it even the slightest?
This would make him MORE likely to repeat that, so no, it'd make me more weary of the person in question. As said before, treatment and punishment may differ, but that doesn't make me sympathetic. Sympathy is about the degree of liking or excusing a person.

NOTHING excuses you from murder. NOTHING.

It doesn't mean you're justifying the crime. It means you're tempering your own anger, letting a broader understanding of the situation affect how you feel about it. Of course you can still give a guy like that the death penalty though.
Now that only makes sense if tempering your anger is actually required because you're being irrational about it anyway.

I posted that video of "gay scientists isolating the Christian gene" some time ago because it's so funny, but I don't even think it's a weird thought at all. Perhaps certain inherent brain qualities make people more or less prone to attribute their experiences to higher powers, be more or less prone to magical thinking or being less discriminate with information, and therefor more vulnerable to religious indoctrination and hogwash like astrology, tarrot cards, palm reading and speaking with ghosts of the dead.
It's a matter of education and analytical brain development. Someone not having done any developing doesn't make me more sympathetic towards a statement or person who says something.

It's only more likely to make my eyes roll.

Their beliefs would still be silly, but let's not forget that they're not really their own ideas to begin with.
And that's the thing. If they can accept someone else's ideas, why would they ONLY be able to accept those specific ideas? There's absolutely no reason to. As I argued earlier, it'd just mean they'd be more receptive to external ideas.

What it is though, is stubborness and denial regarding external input that did not meat the selection criteria. Basically someone selected which sources are trustworthy. Whether this person or someone else, selection criteria are a choice, even if subconscious, even if indoctrinated. If someone is incapable of changing the criteria or looking at their own critically, it doesn't matter if they're smart or dumb: they stick with something and that means they can never have my sympathy on that matter.

Think I said it before, but I built up sympathy regarding a person based on actions, intend and statements, mental capacity (like any other handicap) has nothing to do with that.

Which means I can like very deluded, incapable people for being extremely kind and trying to understand the world they live in, even if they can't. They should at least try if they have even the least bit capacity to and accept they might be wrong.

You could look at it as a mental virus that feeds on these inherent vulnerabilities, replicates, and then spreads through word of mouth (parroting, everyone does it), the media, books and art. Education is the anti-virus, but sometimes the infection has spread so widely and destroyed so many once healthy faculties that there's really nothing that can be done anymore; the virus has become reality itself. Nothing can slip by it anymore, it consumes everything that tries to fight it, and only becomes stronger through it.
You could, but education isn't the only anti-body. Your own mind's capacity to think is your first and most important anti-body. If you close of your mind to new input, for whatever reason, there's no way you'll ever receive the education anti-body.

It all starts with resistent cells.
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Old 2012-06-07, 02:32 PM   [Ignore Me] #686
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Re: Religion


You aren't in your right mind (or is it left mind?) when drunk or high, yet the punishments for those tend to be higher. Is that because they choose to accept responsibility for their actions by default or because it isn't really about the state your mind is in, but rather the state of mind you were in before it changed to something less... common sensible.

To me, not even mental problems are a reason to alter the perception of the action. If you kill someone while batshit insane, okay, you just go to a different prison than 'normal' people do. No truncated sentencing, no insanity (temporary or otherwise) defense, and no 'he didn't know what he was doing' appeals.
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Old 2012-06-07, 05:06 PM   [Ignore Me] #687
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Re: Religion


People choose to get drunk or high, so it's not a suitable comparison.

Do you believe it's appropriate for children to be sentenced differently than adults for committing crimes?
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Old 2012-06-07, 05:40 PM   [Ignore Me] #688
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Warborn View Post
People choose to get drunk or high, so it's not a suitable comparison.

Do you believe it's appropriate for children to be sentenced differently than adults for committing crimes?
Strictly speaking? Sort of depends on the crime.
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Old 2012-06-07, 06:06 PM   [Ignore Me] #689
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Warborn View Post
People choose to get drunk or high, so it's not a suitable comparison.

Do you believe it's appropriate for children to be sentenced differently than adults for committing crimes?
relevant quote from starship troopers

"I told you that 'juvenile delinquent' is a contradiction in terms. 'Delinquent' means 'failing in duty.' But duty is an adult virtue—indeed a juvenile becomes an adult when, and only when, he acquires a knowledge of duty and embraces it as dearer than the self-love he was born with. There never was, there cannot be a 'juvenile delinquent.' But for every juvenile criminal there are always one or more adult delinquents—people of mature years who either do not know their duty, or who, knowing it, fail."
BTW

Sympathy is just care or concern for another, it has nothing to do with excusing. Punishment should not be about anger, so in that context it's a useless emotion. Regardless of whether your goal is rehabilitation or setting an example punishment should be dispassionate. Additionally we know that rewards work better than punishment for teaching appropriate behavior.
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Old 2012-06-07, 07:11 PM   [Ignore Me] #690
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Re: Religion


I wasn't referring to how I'd sentence them, personally. I was referring to how I'd view people like Hitler or whoever who did terrible stuff but had a neurological disorder of some description which lead to their aberrant behaviour. I'm aware of the purpose of criminal justice and its purpose in society, but thanks for the pro tip anyway.
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