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View Poll Results: What do you identify yourself as?
Atheist/Skeptic/Agnostic 151 70.89%
Catholic 21 9.86%
Protestant 24 11.27%
Jewish 5 2.35%
Muslim 2 0.94%
Philisophy (Such as Buddhism) 10 4.69%
Voters: 213. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 2012-05-01, 10:05 PM   [Ignore Me] #571
Zulthus
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by CutterJohn View Post
Nah. I know theres not. Figured that out, despite being raised in an environment conducive to it, when I learned about greek and roman mythology in middle school. If those gods are myth, then what of the rest?
That's the thing though. You can't possibly know for sure. That's why it's faith. You can believe there isn't a god, but you have no way to prove it. Unless, of course, you've come up with a way to do that, tell us how you figured it out so we can end all of this religious nonsense once and for all.

I respect everyone's belief, although I'm not religious myself, as I feel it's a waste of time.
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Old 2012-05-01, 11:06 PM   [Ignore Me] #572
Baneblade
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Re: Religion


Jupiter's cock.... is this shit throwing circle jerk still going on?
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Old 2012-05-02, 12:40 AM   [Ignore Me] #573
CutterJohn
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Zulthus View Post
That's the thing though. You can't possibly know for sure. That's why it's faith. You can believe there isn't a god, but you have no way to prove it. Unless, of course, you've come up with a way to do that, tell us how you figured it out so we can end all of this religious nonsense once and for all.

I respect everyone's belief, although I'm not religious myself, as I feel it's a waste of time.

There is a difference between not believing in something and having absolutely no reason or evidence to believe in something. Just because its possible doesn't mean its true, or even likely.

While it is entirely possible there was a secret nasa mission to deposit a teapot in orbit around the sun between earth and mars, there is zero reason to believe they did this, and zero evidence for it. It is not a 'belief' to state there is no teapot.

Do I really have to say I don't believe in Santa Claus? No. There is no Santa Claus. There was probably a Saint Nicholas, but we only know of him because Coca Cola had a marketing campaign.

There are no elves. No ents. No dwarves(at least not a race of them in the tolkien sense). No orcs. No fire breathing dragons. No vampires. No smurfs. No honest politicians. No flying reindeer, or elephants, or horses. No unicorns. No gryphons. Nobody is dragging the sun across the sky in a magical chariot.

Is it possible that somewhere in the universe some close approximation of some of these exist? Sure. Why not? But if they've existed on earth at any point, there is zero evidence of it. Until there is evidence to the contrary, its not a belief to say these things do not exist. Its a statement of fact.

Last edited by CutterJohn; 2012-05-02 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 2012-05-02, 01:16 AM   [Ignore Me] #574
Red Beard
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Re: Religion


I'm just commenting in this post to qualify the biblical position on what 'faith' is.


In Hebrew:

'aman
אָמַן
Carries the idea of both mental assent and faithFULness/obeying (like wedding vows)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...ngs=H539&t=KJV


In Greek:

pistis (fem. noun)
πίστις
Again, carries the idea of both believing and loyalty/faithfulness.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G4102&t=KJV


What biblical faith is NOT is mental assent by itself.

"But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?" -James 2:18-19


I'm mainly just posting this for the brothers reading this to remember that we need to keep God's commandments as a demonstration and evidence of our *faith*.

Peace.
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Old 2012-05-02, 01:21 AM   [Ignore Me] #575
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml View Post
This I disagree on, the fact I ignore your posting's is that you answer with anger more than logic. In a real world situation this would be resolved with fists, but considering this is the internet, we don't have that option.


Regardless, I choose to ignore internet anger than to confront it with massive amounts of rage posts. I'm sure you understand.

Yes, because pointing out flaws in your argument shows how angry I am.
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Old 2012-05-02, 02:47 AM   [Ignore Me] #576
WildGunsTomcat
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Re: Religion


I don't know why you're still arguing with these guys Duke.

You can't change peoples' opinions with debate...they think what they want and nothing will change that.

Some people need things in their face before they believe it.

If you believe in God, and you believe in your religion....they'll get their proof soon enough.

I bowed out of this thread a long time ago, because no matter what you say...you don't have scientific proof that God exists...so your words are wasted.

Faith is just that....Faith. It doesn't need scientific approval. It's simply something they will never understand...and they will always think it is childish.

Let them have their opinions...it should never distract you from your beliefs.

If you are a true Christian/Muslim/Buddhist....what have you....then the words of someone who has so little faith that everything has to be proven to them in man's feeble physical terms....shouldn't shake your foundations in the slightest. On the contrary, I pity most people that can't feel the wonderment that faith brings me. I pity those that can't feel the joy I do knowing that there is a God that loves me. And I pity the deaf ears that cry out "Proof! Bring me proof before I can even consider that there is something so loving that it created the universe and everything in it so that a creature as low as I could exist for even a fraction of a time."

They will never understand Duke, and they will always look down on the faithful. And maybe it's best that way.

Our challenge is to accept their ridicule, and allow it to strengthen our faith. That's all.

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" Matthew 5:44...right from Christ's mouth.

Last edited by WildGunsTomcat; 2012-05-02 at 02:53 AM.
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Old 2012-05-02, 03:46 AM   [Ignore Me] #577
CutterJohn
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by WildGunsTomcat View Post
If you are a true Christian/Muslim/Buddhist
If you're a true christian or muslim, you cannot tolerate the others or buddhisms existence. They are fundamentally at odds with core aspects of your faith.

If you're a buddhist, you can't get along with christianity or islam, since, while Buddhists recognize that gods can and may exist, they are irrelevant. The gods are stuck in the same trap of reality as we, seeking nirvana.

These, along with the other major religions of Taoism and Hinduism, are all mutually exclusive. You cannot believe in one if you believe in another. By telling all people with such faith to keep their faith, you're saying what you believe in is not important, merely the fact that you have faith. You're making faith itself a religious entity.
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Old 2012-05-02, 03:58 AM   [Ignore Me] #578
Figment
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Zulthus View Post
That's the thing though. You can't possibly know for sure. That's why it's faith. You can believe there isn't a god, but you have no way to prove it. Unless, of course, you've come up with a way to do that, tell us how you figured it out so we can end all of this religious nonsense once and for all.

I respect everyone's belief, although I'm not religious myself, as I feel it's a waste of time.
Zulthus:

http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...&postcount=371

Could you take on the challenge and find where the flaw in the logic is?

I've never seen a creationist be able to tackle this argument against the existence of deities that interact with humanity. The Abrahamic gods in particular are shown to be false due to his claimed properties (timeless, omnipotence and omnipresence in particular) not being coherent with observational facts.

My argument shows that none - and I repeat: NONE - of the world religions past, present or future is true.

Last edited by Figment; 2012-05-02 at 04:19 AM.
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Old 2012-05-02, 07:09 AM   [Ignore Me] #579
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Re: Religion


“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

Buddha
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Old 2012-05-02, 07:48 AM   [Ignore Me] #580
ItsTheSheppy
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by CutterJohn View Post
If you're a true christian or muslim, you cannot tolerate the others or buddhisms existence. They are fundamentally at odds with core aspects of your faith.

If you're a buddhist, you can't get along with christianity or islam, since, while Buddhists recognize that gods can and may exist, they are irrelevant. The gods are stuck in the same trap of reality as we, seeking nirvana.

These, along with the other major religions of Taoism and Hinduism, are all mutually exclusive. You cannot believe in one if you believe in another. By telling all people with such faith to keep their faith, you're saying what you believe in is not important, merely the fact that you have faith. You're making faith itself a religious entity.
Well said.

It's a perfect example of the strange public perception of 'faith' being something noble, or a positive character trait. It's bizarre because being 'faithful' to religious belief is, from a practical standpoint, nearly identical to being superstitious. And exactly how noble do we view the superstitious in our society? It's silly, more than anything else.

The problem is, the "Believe whatever you want, so long as you believe!" opinion is fundamentally flawed, since these beliefs exist exclusive to one another. If you are a christian, then you have to recognize that when Jesus says that the only path to heaven is through him, you have to understand that means all non-christians go to hell. Atheists, muslims, hindus, taoists, shinto, buddhists, all going to hell to burn in agony for all time. You have to accept that. If you don't, you're as much of an apostate as I am, so you really may as well just be atheist. It makes things so much less complicated, and it really frees up your Sundays.
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Old 2012-05-02, 10:23 AM   [Ignore Me] #581
Figment
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Re: Religion


I'd just like to see someone take on the challenge I posted seriously once, instead of ignoring and avoiding, the usual reaction to challenges and obstacles by the "faithful". :/


They have so much faith that they dare not test it...
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Old 2012-05-02, 10:57 AM   [Ignore Me] #582
ItsTheSheppy
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by elfailo View Post
Guru/Hansime/Cutterjohn:



This is probably a lost cause. Good posts all around, but it isn't going to help here. You can see that the more rational you become, the more irrational they become (as if it's going to help avoid being ridiculed by increasing the behavior that was responsible for it in the first place).

Frankly I think Tomcat is just trolling (he's apparently only Christian when the discussion calls for it) and DukeNukem is suffering from a severe case of Korsakov syndrome. It may be time to let it go.
While I agree with you that Duke and Tomcat have apparently misunderstood the purpose of the "debate" forum in that they seem patently uninterested (in the case of Tomcat, in almost every thread) in debate, I don't think it's entirely without value for us to continue responding to them.

After all, I never thought for a moment that either of them would read one of my posts and smack their foreheads and go "oh my god, I've been wrong all this time". Hardly. I expect they barely read my posts as it is.

It's like exercise for the brain. I read their posts and construct rebuttal arguments (or, occasionally, as it was in the monument thread, actually agree with folks of a differing opinion). It's a worthwhile endeavor because debate is how we get towards the truth. Everyone walks away from a debate thinking they were the winner, moral or otherwise. But the debate is important to have, as it gives up perspective on the opinions of our fellow man, and gives us an opportunity to try out our own opinions; to see which ones hold up under scrutiny, and which ones do not.

It's "opinion practice". A fun diversion that helps strengthen the headmuscles. I will keep posting as long as they do. If they've realized that they simply lack the ability to defend their position, I'll happily let them go, but I won't give up so long as they stay in the conversation, because boy howdy I'm having the time of my life.
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Old 2012-05-02, 11:39 AM   [Ignore Me] #583
Red Beard
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Figment View Post
I'd just like to see someone take on the challenge I posted seriously once, instead of ignoring and avoiding, the usual reaction to challenges and obstacles by the "faithful". :/


They have so much faith that they dare not test it...
What was the question
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Old 2012-05-02, 11:39 AM   [Ignore Me] #584
Figment
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Re: Religion


See the link on the previous page.
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Old 2012-05-02, 11:50 AM   [Ignore Me] #585
CutterJohn
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy View Post
The problem is, the "Believe whatever you want, so long as you believe!" opinion is fundamentally flawed, since these beliefs exist exclusive to one another. If you are a christian, then you have to recognize that when Jesus says that the only path to heaven is through him, you have to understand that means all non-christians go to hell. Atheists, muslims, hindus, taoists, shinto, buddhists, all going to hell to burn in agony for all time. You have to accept that. If you don't, you're as much of an apostate as I am, so you really may as well just be atheist. It makes things so much less complicated, and it really frees up your Sundays.


Its like the time I finally, after much hemming and hawing, got a rather devoutly christian buddy of mine to admit that his religion required I go to hell. Frankly getting it out of him was like pulling a tooth. Its like saying it was forcing him to acknowledge it in a way he'd never had to before, to realize how fucked up of an idea that really is. Sure its all fine and good to say a murderer is going to hell, but a decent fellow, and a friend at that?

I took pity on him and changed the conversation to movie trivia after that, but the conversation always makes me wonder how many really believe it all, deep down, and how many truly understand and accept the ramifications of those beliefs. I think many have a personal interpretation that they make work for them and their world views, and just sort of gloss over and ignore the rest.
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