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View Poll Results: What do you identify yourself as?
Atheist/Skeptic/Agnostic 151 70.89%
Catholic 21 9.86%
Protestant 24 11.27%
Jewish 5 2.35%
Muslim 2 0.94%
Philisophy (Such as Buddhism) 10 4.69%
Voters: 213. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 2012-04-17, 04:10 AM   [Ignore Me] #541
Figment
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml View Post
In all that has been spoken about, people wouldn't be trying to convince JUST me and crazy assed traak that we're wrong unless they were looking for someone to convince them.
Duke, you seem to be overlooking the fact that if people WANTED to be convinced or expected to be convinced, they'd already BE convinced.

You may just have to accept that people don't have any need of your religion and simply tell you they think you are flat out wrong, because they have their own ideas about a topic and like to share and discuss it and because they actually fully disagree with the arguments you present and perhaps some hope to convince you instead. Is that so hard to see? :/


If you ask people if they want a loaf of 9 day old bread that's all spoiled with fungus and mice ate holes in it and they say "no thanks, we don't think that'd be a good idea, we'll take this freshly baked bread from the bakery across the street that is of much higher quality", does that mean they actually want you to keep pressing the loaf of rotting bread on them?

Because that's what this is like, you pushing an obsolete piece of rhetorics while there's a much more tasty piece of bread to be gotten elsewhere.

Last edited by Figment; 2012-04-17 at 04:12 AM.
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Old 2012-04-17, 07:43 AM   [Ignore Me] #542
ItsTheSheppy
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by AnamNantom View Post
You may have missed it, what I was meaning to indicate was that the way of salvation was simple. It was putting our trust in Jesus Christ's sacrifice to save from Hell. I'm not saying belief is easy. Especially in the world we live in. There's a lot out there in the world seeking to destroy any faith you might have in Jesus Christ, specifically.

Here's a simple thing:

John 3:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


That is what I present to you, take it, or leave it. No one in the world will ever completely be able to comprehend God, or the full measure of His love. Faith in Him does not take a full measure of knowing everything there is about Him, nor in fully trusting, believe that or not. Faith in Christ just takes one step toward Him.

I'm not debating, but offering you what I believe.
And I, for example, reject what you believe because there is no evidence whatsoever that anything said above is true.

You might says, okay, that's your prerogative. No harm no foul, what's the harm in you and I believing different things? I'll happily tell you.

First of all, belief informs action. We behave in accordance with our beliefs. Now, I'm assuming your religion maintains the existence of hell; after all, if everyone could get into heaven, no matter what, there would be no point in joining Team God. If you and I both end up in paradise, all that would mean was that you're wasting your time. Also, it's kind of hard to feel good about a god that rewards Pol Pot and Ted Bundy with eternal paradise.

So, since I utterly reject your god and all the teachings of the bible, according to your religion I'm going to hell. You have to believe that; if you don't, you're an apostate. "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.' (John 14:6)" Since I reject Jesus, I don't get into heaven.

The question is, do you believe that I, and the majority of the rest of humanity (who aren't now or never have been Christians) deserve to be tortured forever? We in western civilization consider grotesque practices of torture to be the height of immorality, and nobody in their right mind would consider anyone else a candidate, for example, for breaking on the wheel. But according to Jesus, I have that, and worse, to look forward to, forever. For the crime of not believing in him or accepting him as my savior, and literally nothing else. I could found and run a worldwide organization that's sole job is to cut baby dolphins out of fishing nets and feed starving children in Cambodia and it doesn't matter because I think Jesus is a big hoax, ergo I go to Hell.

That's immoral. It's an immoral belief and leads to actions on the part of the believers that are illogical, unreasonable and constitute a negative force in the world. We're better off without them. It's what leads to the persecution of homosexuals, to interfaith violence, to discrimination and personal stress and torment. It reinforces and defends the "extremist" wackos (who are only extreme in their adherence to the tenets of the faith).

That's why religion is unacceptable, and why we as a people should never stop questioning it and exposing it for the fabrication that it is.
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Old 2012-04-17, 09:57 AM   [Ignore Me] #543
Elude
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Re: Religion


Most people can do better than God in terms of love. I know several people who would let literally anyone into their home if they needed it.

God doesn't just deny access to his home for people who don't love him or acknowledge him, he sends them to the most violent jail for all eternity.

I'm sorry but I would rather join the innocents in hell than be accepted into the house of douche bags who think they're better than everyone else.

Last edited by Elude; 2012-04-17 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 2012-04-17, 12:25 PM   [Ignore Me] #544
Elude
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Re: Religion


Shit dipped in strawberry ice cream is still shit!
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Old 2012-04-17, 02:55 PM   [Ignore Me] #545
Figment
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml View Post
Does the fresh bread have butter on it?
Yes and chocolate sprinkles.
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Old 2012-04-17, 03:23 PM   [Ignore Me] #546
p0intman
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Re: Religion


God does not exist and religion is a scam.
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Old 2012-04-17, 09:53 PM   [Ignore Me] #547
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by p0intman View Post
God does not exist and religion is a scam.
Religion is a scam even if god exists. Even the bible says so.
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Old 2012-04-18, 06:03 AM   [Ignore Me] #548
Traak
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Elude View Post
Most people can do better than God in terms of love. I know several people who would let literally anyone into their home if they needed it.

God doesn't just deny access to his home for people who don't love him or acknowledge him, he sends them to the most violent jail for all eternity.

I'm sorry but I would rather join the innocents in hell than be accepted into the house of douche bags who think they're better than everyone else.
God makes access to his home available for anyone. It's free. It's easy. Standing on the curb and cursing God because he made it possible for sinful man to receive Jesus Christ and become sons of God? Why? Do you curse the police for arresting murderers? For starting them on a voyage to a prison?

Unlike on Earth, where many are in prison for being "too black, too strong" no one in hell is innocent. God is a perfect judge. He loves mankind. Police don't arrest felons because the police are unjust scum hoping to ruin society, for the most part. What do you propose be done with evil people? Have them all live at your house?

If you are so eager to live with all the "innocents in hell" then why not do what you can now and go live in prison with all those "innocents"?

No innocent person, no child, ever went to hell. No one who has heard and rejected the truth of Jesus Christ, or the Lord God in the Old Covenant times, is in heaven. If someone has never heard of Jesus, they are judged by their own conscience either accusing them or excusing them, açcording to the Bible.

This idea that God is mad at everyone for not telling him how great he is is idiotic, and is not found anywhere in the Bible. Maybe it is espoused by whatever literature you read? Whatever friends you hang out with? It's nowhere in the Bible.

People go to hell for the same, but more perfectly guilty, reasons that they go to prison. Because they rebel against the authority that offers them a choice. You can choose to murder or not murder. You can choose to steal or not steal. You can choose to accept Jesus Christ as savior, or discard him.

No one makes these choices for people, and everyone lives with the results of their choices. But innocents in hell? Laughable. Jesus is the door to heaven. No one gets to the father buy by him. Rejecting him is like claiming that lifeboats don't exist when you're on a sinking ship, and refusing to get on one. If you drown, it's your fault, no the lifeboat's.
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Last edited by Traak; 2012-04-18 at 06:04 AM.
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Old 2012-04-18, 06:57 AM   [Ignore Me] #549
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Re: Religion


So you are saying that you can't reject god and be innocent too?
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Old 2012-04-18, 07:45 AM   [Ignore Me] #550
Effective
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Traak View Post
God makes access to his home available for anyone. It's free. It's easy. Standing on the curb and cursing God because he made it possible for sinful man to receive Jesus Christ and become sons of God? Why? Do you curse the police for arresting murderers? For starting them on a voyage to a prison?

Unlike on Earth, where many are in prison for being "too black, too strong" no one in hell is innocent. God is a perfect judge. He loves mankind. Police don't arrest felons because the police are unjust scum hoping to ruin society, for the most part. What do you propose be done with evil people? Have them all live at your house?

If you are so eager to live with all the "innocents in hell" then why not do what you can now and go live in prison with all those "innocents"?

No innocent person, no child, ever went to hell. No one who has heard and rejected the truth of Jesus Christ, or the Lord God in the Old Covenant times, is in heaven. If someone has never heard of Jesus, they are judged by their own conscience either accusing them or excusing them, açcording to the Bible.

This idea that God is mad at everyone for not telling him how great he is is idiotic, and is not found anywhere in the Bible. Maybe it is espoused by whatever literature you read? Whatever friends you hang out with? It's nowhere in the Bible.

People go to hell for the same, but more perfectly guilty, reasons that they go to prison. Because they rebel against the authority that offers them a choice. You can choose to murder or not murder. You can choose to steal or not steal. You can choose to accept Jesus Christ as savior, or discard him.

No one makes these choices for people, and everyone lives with the results of their choices. But innocents in hell? Laughable. Jesus is the door to heaven. No one gets to the father buy by him. Rejecting him is like claiming that lifeboats don't exist when you're on a sinking ship, and refusing to get on one. If you drown, it's your fault, no the lifeboat's.
No. He doesn't actually (don't believe in Jesus? Well off to hell with you, even if you spend your free time helping the homeless and perform many other deeds that would be approved of by any ethical person/society)
. You compare murders to gay people. That's a huge stretch no matter how you look at it. There's also a difference between being put in prison and being tortured for an eternity.


How does one determine innocence? If you're right, people are put into hell for simply not believing in Jesus being the son of god. How is that a crime? How is being gay a crime but rape isn't (according to the bible)?

Actually plently of people who have never heard the law go to hell, according the the bible.

Romans 3
20Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

No man, however virtuous, can be justified by law keeping.

The god suggested by the bible is hardly perfect. He seems to fail at doing whatever he tries to do most of the time.

The idea isn't as far-fetched as you make it sounds as it is touched upon in the bible. There are several verses that talk about how you should worship and/or fear god, and then go and murder everyone who doesn't believe in him. While it's true that none of it says you're going to hell if you don't do it, it's still suggests that the god of the bible is a vain narcissist, and yes very angry that people would not worship him.

You're comparing stealing and murder to not believing that someone isn't the son of bigfoot. Seriously?
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Old 2012-04-18, 08:10 AM   [Ignore Me] #551
Figment
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Traak View Post
Rejecting him is like claiming that lifeboats don't exist when you're on a sinking ship, and refusing to get on one. If you drown, it's your fault, no the lifeboat's.
Not really. And you got it the wrong way around.

Accepting him is like claiming an invisible, intangible lifeboat exists (these two properties are VERY important) and your life depends on trusting the people that claim there is this lifeboat deployed in the icy waters below and you should just jump, HOPING there'll be an invisible, intangible lifeboat there that will break your fall and keeps you from drowning and freezing in ice cold waters.

The alternative is accepting that a jump will simply get you killed, because there's no reason to believe invisible, intangible ships exists, nor that they have any of the aforementioned properties and thus simply accepting the inevitable: you will end up dead anyway.


The problem here Traak, is that you presume there's a ship in the first place. The problem with that is that a ship has to be constructed and designed and that the designer thought to install lifeboats in case of a disaster.

We don't think there is a ship, but instead floating debris that happens to cling together to form some sort of random structure you can stand on. Therefore, there is no designer and thus also no lifeboats.


You think life is ordened. We do not. We consider life and the world to exist in chaos with the only ordening power being humans. Since us humans like order and look for patterns in everything, it's not hard to imagine some would imagine there's a bigger pattern. A bigger purpose. You are one of those people that just WANTS there to be something bigger.

Not all of us think there's always a conspiracy theory to random events. You do.
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Old 2012-04-18, 12:32 PM   [Ignore Me] #552
p0intman
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Traak View Post
God makes access to his home available for anyone. It's free. It's easy. Standing on the curb and cursing God because he made it possible for sinful man to receive Jesus Christ and become sons of God? Why? Do you curse the police for arresting murderers? For starting them on a voyage to a prison?

Unlike on Earth, where many are in prison for being "too black, too strong" no one in hell is innocent. God is a perfect judge. He loves mankind. Police don't arrest felons because the police are unjust scum hoping to ruin society, for the most part. What do you propose be done with evil people? Have them all live at your house?

If you are so eager to live with all the "innocents in hell" then why not do what you can now and go live in prison with all those "innocents"?

No innocent person, no child, ever went to hell. No one who has heard and rejected the truth of Jesus Christ, or the Lord God in the Old Covenant times, is in heaven. If someone has never heard of Jesus, they are judged by their own conscience either accusing them or excusing them, açcording to the Bible.

This idea that God is mad at everyone for not telling him how great he is is idiotic, and is not found anywhere in the Bible. Maybe it is espoused by whatever literature you read? Whatever friends you hang out with? It's nowhere in the Bible.

People go to hell for the same, but more perfectly guilty, reasons that they go to prison. Because they rebel against the authority that offers them a choice. You can choose to murder or not murder. You can choose to steal or not steal. You can choose to accept Jesus Christ as savior, or discard him.

No one makes these choices for people, and everyone lives with the results of their choices. But innocents in hell? Laughable. Jesus is the door to heaven. No one gets to the father buy by him. Rejecting him is like claiming that lifeboats don't exist when you're on a sinking ship, and refusing to get on one. If you drown, it's your fault, no the lifeboat's.
Giant strawman argument, nice try though. I don't need another made up mythological entity to tell me how to behave and carry on with my life and to call me evil because I don't accept this farce is pretty insulting. The myth that heaven is ideal and all of that other shit, is as well a farce. Even if you were to spend litterally forever in an ideal utopia, that utopia would turn into your own hell through sheer, eternal boredom.

Yes, I just rejected your entire argument in under a quarter of the amount of text you took to write.

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
Not really. And you got it the wrong way around.

Accepting him is like claiming an invisible, intangible lifeboat exists (these two properties are VERY important) and your life depends on trusting the people that claim there is this lifeboat deployed in the icy waters below and you should just jump, HOPING there'll be an invisible, intangible lifeboat there that will break your fall and keeps you from drowning and freezing in ice cold waters.

The alternative is accepting that a jump will simply get you killed, because there's no reason to believe invisible, intangible ships exists, nor that they have any of the aforementioned properties and thus simply accepting the inevitable: you will end up dead anyway.


The problem here Traak, is that you presume there's a ship in the first place. The problem with that is that a ship has to be constructed and designed and that the designer thought to install lifeboats in case of a disaster.

We don't think there is a ship, but instead floating debris that happens to cling together to form some sort of random structure you can stand on. Therefore, there is no designer and thus also no lifeboats.


You think life is ordened. We do not. We consider life and the world to exist in chaos with the only ordening power being humans. Since us humans like order and look for patterns in everything, it's not hard to imagine some would imagine there's a bigger pattern. A bigger purpose. You are one of those people that just WANTS there to be something bigger.

Not all of us think there's always a conspiracy theory to random events. You do.
You are awesome. This a thousand times.

Last edited by p0intman; 2012-04-18 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 2012-04-18, 02:43 PM   [Ignore Me] #553
Figment
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Re: Religion


@Elcyco, without looking it up, that's a clock-reaction I presume that continuous untill it finds a stable equilibrium?
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Old 2012-04-18, 04:42 PM   [Ignore Me] #554
MadPenguin
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by elfailo View Post
Belousov-Zhabotinsky Reaction - YouTube

Not proof of God obviously. It's quite the opposite. It's proof that order can arise out of chaos spontaneously, given the right conditions (which will arise at some point given enough time), which may have some bearing on abiogenesis. It does invalidate the idea that order can't come out of chaos, which creationists like to posture with as if they actually have a clue what it means.

Why are you all wasting your time on this tool anyway? There are far more interesting religious people around, such as this guy:

Father George Coyne Interview (1/7) - Richard Dawkins - YouTube
Ive just watched the full interview with that priest George Coyne and while Im not sure how he reconciles together everything he says, i've got to say, lot of respect for the man.
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Old 2012-04-24, 11:05 PM   [Ignore Me] #555
Baneblade
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml View Post
No one sees my point and no one will.
Maybe that is due to the root of your point being: I believe it, so you should too.

The entirety of what I was trying to make everyone see is that we are all human.
Speak for yourself Earthling! I'm a Space Monkey.

Humans make what we know possible.. nothing else... nothing at ALL can teach us but US!
So to say that we, as a race, have all the answers....... It just boggles my fucking mind..
Who says that?

and for those who are athiest or agnostic... it's the same fucking thing.... fuck your definition.... You're just looking for a man made excuse to fit in.
Yeah, Mormons and Christians are the same thing... so are **** and Islamics, and Zoroastrians and Taoists.

It doesn't mean I'm wrong and it doesn't mean you're wrong.. But by GOD... One of us IS wrong.
That's why I like my belief system... everyone is right.
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