This game just became officially p2w - Page 3

ringring · 2014-07-02, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by War Barney

Says the guy with 52 days of playtime....

I've been playing for a year with a 50% exp boost for 6 months of that and I've got 3 classes setup at this point, and even then by that I mean only 1 or 2 levels away from the max upgrade for most class upgrades as the last ones take 1000 certs to get which is about a weeks playing without a boost, and thats for me who has plenty of time to play, if you play 1 hour a day its probably a couple weeks or more to get 1000 certs.

You don't get every upgrade to every weapon but eventually you'll most likely buy every weapon and kit them out with attachments. What I meant was, does this mean if you buy a laser sight for SC, is it unlocked for every weapon on every faction? or is it just a class of weapons, say buy it for a LMG and you get all the LMG laser sights? cos if it is every weapon for every faction that is literally 1000s of certs you save for a single upgrade. Do this for every single attachment and you'll be saving perhaps up to 10k certs (this is a rough estimate, it could be more or less I've not done the math)

lol fair comment.

in this game the hard certs are the first ones. The ones you're trying to get when you don't really know what is going on. Once you do know it becomes a lot easier.

So yes I've got spare certs coming out of my ... ears and I've certed out every class and I've certed up every vehicle - even the classes and vehicles I never used. I've got guns galore, you might say I've run out of reasons to play.

Once you get experienced it's pretty easy. - and I'd say that is an indictment on the ambition of making the game noob friendly.

VaderShake · 2014-07-02, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by War Barney

1. I was simply pointing out that your logic of its fine for people to be more powerful because theres lots of people in each fight doesn't hold up by using an extreme example.

2. Its very easy, they could make guns you buy for SC better or special upgrades you can only buy with SC. I didn't say they will I said this is a step in that direction which is why it worries some people.

3. I never said people should be at a huge disadvantage, if anything I'm all for them changing how the upgrades work so new players get at least level 1 of stuff for free, especially with vehicles like air its a huge disadvantage not having certain perks like the shield, flares, agility frame. My concern was simply that letting people buy everything for SC could encourage them to make things cost WAY more certs so you would need to spend weeks grinding for something that use to take a day so they make more money You need to learn to read and not jump to conclusions kid.

4. Again you seem to just be writing something based on what somebody else wrote, by this point I'm wondering if you read anything I put or are perhaps accidentally responding to somebody elses posts under mine. Could you point out where I said PS2 is a solo rambo game with no teamwork? or where I said people who pay are OP? No I said its POSSIBLE for it to happen, which is what people are worried could happen if they keep slowly moving in this direction.

So basically almost nothing you said actually correlated at all to anything I said. To try and sum it up in a simpler way as you obviously didn't understand me at all.

A. New system means paying to gain power. Power you can get for free though so while not a mortal sin still something some people are uncomfortable with.

B. If you can buy everything for SC, they MIGHT make everything cost more certs to purchase to encourage people to buy instead of getting things for free.

C. It all comes down to TRUST, do you trust SOE to keep a fair system where you can easily get things for free but can pay if you like?

Look at the new EA dungeon keeper, they let you pay to speed up mining but it would take 24 hours for 1 block without paying. To put it simply they made it completely unrealistic to play it without paying. If everything has a SC cost, it could end up like this, buying things with certs being unrealistic.

AGAIN!! IM NOT SAYING THATS HOW IT IS NOW I AM NOT!!! NOT!! NOOOOOOOOTTTTTTT SAYING THATS HOW IT IS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Simply that its possible for them to go that way.

You are just way over thinking everything.. See below.

There is so weapon or upgrade in this game that a free2player can't access. People are always looking at this Pay2Win argument from the wrong direction.

OMG, you can unlock something with money

versus

OMG, I can't access something without paying

The former is PS2, the latter is Pay2Win.

Speculation on "what if's" and "maybe" regarding SOE and their direction is worthless at this point. Speculation in the video game industry has never fared well.....just reference the hype about virtual reality and holograms in the 80's.

War Barney · 2014-07-02, 12:52 PM

Its not worthless, personally I'm happy with this change as it allows casual players to enjoy the game more with less of a disadvantage for not spending hours a day playing, but at the same time I want to make sure SOE know they are walking a thin line now.

If they step over the p2w line it would drive away a lot of players and give the game a bad name so they need to be very carful.

And aye ring it does get easier when you level, even at this point while theres a lot I need I keep my certs above 1k easily enough (though I haven't bought any 1k cert upgrades yet, theres to many cheaper ones I need). However it doesn't change the fact that if you buy 1 laser sight an it unlocks for EVERY weapon thats a whole load of certs saved.

That said though, as I said right now I'm ok with this change in principle as it does help new players and casual players gear up quicker, I was more just arguing the point of how expensive it is for no real reason :P

Boildown · 2014-07-02, 01:05 PM

Planetside 2 has always been a Free To Play game, and I'm fine with this. I do agree that the Max part is most troublesome, because 500 cert upgrades isn't as trivial as the rest, but in the end, I'm ok with it.

Perhaps it is Star Citizen that has helped me tighten my definition of P2W, but this is merely pay for progression and falls well short of pay to win.

Crator · 2014-07-02, 01:38 PM

Pay-to-Progress Faster, not pay-to-win...

VaderShake · 2014-07-02, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Crator

Pay-to-Progress Faster, not pay-to-win...

I see it more as "Pay-for-more-options" no matter how many unlocks some players have they still may suck or not know how or when to use the options they have.

PS2 is all about situational awareness, strategy, & tactics. Not so much skill in a battle on the ground in vehicles or on foot, don't get me wrong there are skilled players out there but it's more an even fight.

IMO skill only really comes into play in PS2 if you are in the air....some pilots are simply amazing.

War Barney · 2014-07-02, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by VaderShake

I see it more as "Pay-for-more-options" no matter how many unlocks some players have they still may suck or not know how or when to use the options they have.

PS2 is all about situational awareness, strategy, & tactics. Not so much skill in a battle on the ground in vehicles or on foot, don't get me wrong there are skilled players out there but it's more an even fight.

IMO skill only really comes into play in PS2 if you are in the air....some pilots are simply amazing.

I'm sorry but no it is pay for power, laser sight lets you have a better hip fire which can be the difference between life and death in many situations, darklight lets you see infiltrators, compensator lets you shooter further, silencer stops people seeing you on the mini map, its not options it clear boosts in your effectivness.

Likewise you can't deny a 50% reduction in explosion damage isn't a boost to your strength, or resistance to small arms, or upgraded jets to allow you to position better, or revive grenades to revive more people, or afterburner for mag to bypass walls and side step anything shot at you.

SOME of it is side grades but for the most part its very obviously upgrades.

BlaxicanX · 2014-07-02, 03:11 PM

... all upgrades that you can get for free.

VaderShake · 2014-07-02, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by War Barney

I'm sorry but no it is pay for power, laser sight lets you have a better hip fire And gives away your positionwhich can be the difference between life and death in many situations, darklight lets you see infiltrators you can see them without a DL but it helps, also lowering your power by arming you with a pistol instead of your primary weapon, compensator lets you shooter furthernot what the compensator does, it helps with recoil, silencer stops people seeing you on the mini mapalso only for certain weapons and it limits their range as well, its not options it clear boosts in your effectivness. Each item you list is situational, which is my point, you can unlock items to give you more flexibility in certain situaitons but it comes with a price

Likewise you can't deny a 50% reduction in explosion damage isn't a boost to your strength,anymore I prefer using a grenade bandoleer instead of the armor to give me more firepower or resistance to small arms, or upgraded jets to allow you to position betterthey will help you stay up longer but you are also in the air longer as a target, again situational, or revive grenades to revive more peopleUnless you need other grenade types to help achieve your objective, again situational, or afterburner for mag to bypass walls and side step anything shot at you.Mag needs a further nerf LOL, I hate those things because you can miss under them, unlike the other factions

SOME of it is side grades but for the most part its very obviously upgrades. They are all situational, no matter which way you slice it, yes a player starting out with no side grades is limited but they can just buy them now instead of grinding

Again your being tunnel focused...

War Barney · 2014-07-02, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by VaderShake

Again your being tunnel focused...

1. You get the bonus even without the light shining from what I've seen and its hardly a huge light especially compared to the hip fire accuracy...

2. You can hardly see them at all unless they sprint, hell when crouched they are now perfectly invisible so you can ONLY see them then with this light.

3. By shooter further I meant reducing recoil allowing you to shoot further.

4. Limits range sure but available on short range guns and the slight accuracy hit is worth it for not showing up on the mini map. nobody is going to be snipping with a SMG.

5. Its not just flexability its boosts to your effective strength with sometimes minor drawbacks, often so minor you don't notice them, list compensator making you more visible, its designed for shooting people further away so you don't care too much, same with silencer.

6. You preference doesn't stop 50% reduction in damage being a pure and simple strength boost, and more grenades is a simple strength boost.

7. Here you are really grasping at straws, you are in the air because you want to be in the air and generally want to do it as long as possible to climb buildings or reach a sunderer.

8. Yes mags are ridiculous, bypassing walls side stepping rockets, not being stopped dead by pebbles and the ability to boost out of a fight at breakneck speeds by far makes it the best tank.

9. They are not all situational, the weapon attachments are more so than the class cert options but even then its often an incredibly minor downside.

No I'm just point out that they are upgrades not sidegrades for the most part, as I said the weapon attachments have the strongest argument for being a side grade but the class upgrades are pure simple strength upgrades in every shape and form, same for the vehicles, they are pure and simple strength upgrades, hell until you upgrade your ESF chances are you wont stand a single chance against people who have the upgrades as they will easily maneuver out of your sights while constantly hitting you, and flares mean they don't worry about lock ons and you do.

Babyfark McGeez · 2014-07-02, 05:14 PM

Imo this isn't any more or less "p2w" then selling weapons; you fork down cash to circumvent the grind.

Also i'm not surprised by this move, SOE is unbelievably lazy, or atleast uninspired, when it comes to monetizing this game. They could do so much with cosmetics and "rp" stuff (more heads, emotes/taunts, expensive exclusive items etc.), not to mention all the missing "services" (char transfer, name change etc.).

But apparently they don't want to put effort into this, making the game look cheap at times.

Edfishy · 2014-07-02, 05:30 PM

Seems like whenever they add some new monetized cosmetic/rp stuff, there's just more bugs and complaints from the fanbase on "bigger priorities". I haven't played in a while, are the purchasable voice packs fixed yet? I thought I remember they were partially broken.

STOMPIE · 2014-07-03, 01:57 AM

All this discussion of P2W is very interesting. Some points are valid and others more relevant than others. But all a good read.
I think War Barney’s point that items cert total could be increased by SOE is a very valid one. It’s a pretty sound business model: allow items to be bought with cash and see how successful it is, if it indeed meets or exceeds targets….raise prices or expand availability……scary thought for PS2.

As a person who has played all of 2 hours on Briggs, spent no money or certs, experienced a fraction of the continents, and is primarily a console player waiting for the release on PS4. If this option of “P2W” is available for PS4 players, I will most certainly be purchasing SC so that I can have an advantage, as small as it is. I can only imagine how my lack of map and objective knowledge will hinder me against other PC players that have made the switch. But not for too long….ill get the hang of it pretty quick I think.

FLAME SUITE ON:

My two most anticipated classes would have to be the LA and HA. They tend to match my current play style in COD…no I cant fly in COD but I am supper excited to do so in PS2.

BlaxicanX · 2014-07-03, 02:23 AM

Everyone plays Heavy Assault, so I don't think anyone will hold that against you tbh.

Mordelicius · 2014-07-03, 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

From the patch notes:

"All infantry and MAX weapon attachments are now purchasable with Station Cash. Like the existing weapon optics, any attachment purchased with station cash will be unlocked account wide."

Meaning you can buy straight power/upgrades with cash now. Even Smedley admitted: "For those of you using the slippery slope argument ok. I agree. It is a slippery slope."

Needless to say, this is a very bad direction for a game that has a reputation to hold up for not being p2w.
Giving this game a bad p2w reputation, while there are still so many other revenue ways to exploit (name change/ server change tokens, anyone?) is not a smart move with a PS4 launch coming up.

The term "Pay-to-Win" started cropping up in the late 00s, when F2P MMOs were selling special gears/upgrades and buffs/enhancements in cash-shops that are not accessible in-game. That's why many of these MMOs started making these items tradeable in-game.

Back then, most pvpers dont' really mind, primarily because advantage can be offset with numbers. Remember, these are open world faction based pvp and not some instanced matches.

But the term stuck because everytime a new PvP MMO comes out, the posters in websites such as MMOSite, Youtube, etc. would be asking 'Is this game Pay2Win?"

Imo, it's not pay-to-win because all these are accessible with certs. Now, if they start selling exclusive gears/buffs (implants in Ps2) only available in the marketplace, then it would be. These things are available in-game to everyone. Some players want to buy it, some players want to farm/grind it.