So since tanks can be outfitted to AA/AV/AI

[Azren]

The mag is a clear case, but I saw nothing about forward pointing guns for the other tanks.

Human factor is irrevelant in perspective of ballancing. For example two solo tanks can team up; one baiting you, the other attacking your rear (onces you get too preoccupied shooting/following him). Damage from the rear is greater than the front, you will die fast.

Aim... would be true if we were talking about fighting foot soldiers, but not tanks. It was easy to hit tanks in PS as driver, should be the same in PS2.

[xSlideShow]

Originally Posted by Azren

The mag is a clear case, but I saw nothing about forward pointing guns for the other tanks.

Human factor is irrevelant in perspective of ballancing. For example two solo tanks can team up; one baiting you, the other attacking your rear (onces you get too preoccupied shooting/following him). Damage from the rear is greater than the front, you will die fast.

Aim... would be true if we were talking about fighting foot soldiers, but not tanks. It was easy to hit tanks in PS as driver, should be the same in PS2.

Your talking about weapon that requires minimum lead. The Vanguard's shots had a very slow travel and required a lot of calculation. Yes it was easy for the gunner to hit his target swerving in and out of cover or just running circles around you. But when the driver has to make these same calculations and drive. He's going to have a hard time aiming. Basically piloting a MBT solo to combat other MBT the advantage is going to lie in the one with a gunner and a pilot.

I for one trust that this wouldn't be that difficult to balance especially if they do the forward gun. Since I just mentioned all of the advantages the driver has to driving. Yes the gun can still hit hard. But the shorter TTK I assume applies to vehicles thus every shot is going to count. So if you miss a lot which what is going to happen. Unless you have the ability to Drive calculate for drop and lead. While also timing your enemies shots and moving out of the way of these shots. Your going to be at a slight disadvantage. Just because you cannot land as many hits. Thus when that magrider wheels around to put his main gun in your face. You had better be ready to move cause he only needs to shoot a couple times. While you have to be shooting the entire time.

Even if one is baiting you, simply have to engage the one trying to attack your flank. The other one has his back turned he's going to have to turn around to shoot. This buys 1-3 seconds of time for you. All while you can have both guns on the other guy. The human factor has a lot to do with vehicles especially since it's a DECISION to pull 2 tanks instead of one. Which is part of the human factor. So I do not see how it's irrelevant when balancing. It is an FPS logically the guy cannot perform all of these actions at the same time while the other guys are attempting to evade. Since he is going to have to performing both roles while the other 2 have split the load. While still maintaining the ability to concentrate fire.

[Skepsiis]

You can move and shoot at the same time as infantry no? Why not in vehicles? A few tweaks in the controls could make them feel similar.

Granted there are other factors to take into account like momentum and protecting your rear side.

I prefer the driver + gunner setup from the first game too tbh, but I dont think driver controlled main guns are going to be removed and i think it will play out fine.

[Canaris]

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

I was horrendously disappointed when I read that the MBT main gun would be operated by the driver rather then the gunner. It ruins a lot in my opinion. Further disappointment ensued when I read that buggies weren't going to be in the game.

These points mean that infantry won't stand much of a chance in open field combat, and that is where I've always played best. Out in the field with a sniper rifle. Where's my role going in this? Being able to shoot open cockpit vehicles and damage the occupants is just going to hurt more, because MBTs and Lightnings aren't among them and will be that much more popular because of it.

I have concerns about this. PS1 required teamwork for most, if not all vehicles. Even single pilot vehicles died fast without support from other players. Now it seems like PS2 is being geared more towards the solo fighter.

2 words "Rocket Launcher!"

I still use my bolt driver and stiker or deci combination today in PS1, when done right you can be lethal to any type of advance. I scored my greatest ever kill streak like this.

[Draep]

Originally Posted by Skepsiis

You can move and shoot at the same time as infantry no? Why not in vehicles? A few tweaks in the controls could make them feel similar.

Granted there are other factors to take into account like momentum and protecting your rear side.

I prefer the driver + gunner setup from the first game too tbh, but I dont think driver controlled main guns are going to be removed and i think it will play out fine.

Moving and shooting as an infantryman should generally be much more inaccurate. Think about it, you're moving your whole body while trying to keep your rifle level. When driving with a tank, sure you have to make extra calculations of your speed vs. target speed, but barring bumps in the road, your gun barrel doesn't move at all.

Running and gunning as an infantryman should be reserved for desperate situations-- very close CQB and providing your own cover fire.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by xSlideShow

Your talking about weapon that requires minimum lead. The Vanguard's shots had a very slow travel and required a lot of calculation. Yes it was easy for the gunner to hit his target swerving in and out of cover or just running circles around you. But when the driver has to make these same calculations and drive. He's going to have a hard time aiming. Basically piloting a MBT solo to combat other MBT the advantage is going to lie in the one with a gunner and a pilot.

Point out where its mentioned that the tank cannons have grossly different behaviors?

As we've seen so far, nothing is sacred. You cannot comment on balance based on how things worked in PS1.

[Redshift]

Originally Posted by Skepsiis

You can move and shoot at the same time as infantry no? Why not in vehicles? A few tweaks in the controls could make them feel similar.

Granted there are other factors to take into account like momentum and protecting your rear side.

I prefer the driver + gunner setup from the first game too tbh, but I dont think driver controlled main guns are going to be removed and i think it will play out fine.

because as infantry you run forward in the direction your gun is facing, this isn't true for driving a 1man tank. They're totally different. The mag controls are the same as infantry, the lightning and therefore the 1man prowler/vanny will be a pain to drive and gun.

I'm not really concerned about the whole thing but i just wanted to point out where you error was

[mefy]

I say we just fix this by making tanks mandatory 2 gunners. Or I guess we could copy the BF series

[Skepsiis]

Originally Posted by Redshift

because as infantry you run forward in the direction your gun is facing, this isn't true for driving a 1man tank. They're totally different. The mag controls are the same as infantry, the lightning and therefore the 1man prowler/vanny will be a pain to drive and gun.

I'm not really concerned about the whole thing but i just wanted to point out where you error was

No, the error is in you misunderstanding my post.

I will try to explain a little better what I mean -

We can run and gun as infantry easily enough and this type of control comes naturally to a fps player.

Driving and gunning a turreted tank however (forget the new mag because it doesnt have this problem with a fixed gun and hover ability), or any vehicle with a turret for that matter, is quite difficult. Why? Im not sure exactly but I think it has something to do with the disjointed effect you feel between the turret and the main body unless you are driving and looking forwards. It just feels a bit awkward and clumsy.

Currently your driving controls are w go forwards...s go backwards, a and d to turn right? But why not change this so that you control your vehicle like infantry?

Here are some examples of what I mean:

You are facing north with your turret, your vehicle hull is facing east. You press and hold s, which indicates you want to go backwards relative to your viewpoint, in this case south. Your vehicle then starts going forwards and turning towards the south... You keep holding s and turn your turret to face NE, your hull will then turn to face SW, moving forwards all the time.

You are hiding behind a wall to your south with enemies on the other side you want to pop out and take a few shots then jump back into cover. So your turret is facing south, hull facing west. You press D to move to your right (from the perspective of the turret) and your vehicle drives forwards to the west, you come out from behind the wall, do your thing then press A and the vehicle reverses back into cover on your left, which is back towards the east.

How about you want to circle something? You start with the hull and turret facing your target to the north. You press AD and your vehicle drives forwards and turns towards the NE as you come close enough and then past your target you are now just holding D while tracking your target by moving your mouse left. You keep holding D and moving your mouse left while your vehicle drives forwards in a circle, adjusting your vehicle hull direction for you as you turn the turret. Exactly the same as circle strafing as a grunt.

I think this kind of control would feel more natural to fps players and make driving and gunning at the same time a bit more intuitive because you are basically just telling the veh where you want it to go instead of fine tuning how much left and right.

Some people may prefer the original method of driving, so it wouldnt be too difficult to implement both and let players change their control style in the options. The original style actually works really well if you are just facing forward and driving.

One issue with this 'infantry style' driving method is what you do if you are attempting an orderly retreat by reversing away from the enemy whilst shooting to protect your rear side. Maybe a 5th button to toggle forwards/backwards driving?

[Xyntech]

Originally Posted by Skepsiis

Giant post, but worth reading.

I agree, so long as they do as you say and implement both control schemes.

TL;DR

Make a variant control scheme for NC and TR tanks where the WASD keys act as directional movement keys based on which way you're looking (w being go straight ahead, A being turn left and then drive left, etc.), instead of A and D being rotation keys and W and S being used for accelerate and slowing/reverse.

---

If I am gunning and driving a tank, I would much prefer the control scheme you suggest. Of course I'm VS, so I'm already set

[Khellendros]

Originally Posted by Skepsiis

Currently your driving controls are w go forwards...s go backwards, a and d to turn right? But why not change this so that you control your vehicle like infantry?

I like your idea a lot.

[Coreldan]

I like the idea too. Naturally it would have to have the tank physically turn those 90 degrees to right before it would actually move to the right when you press D, for example.

I think that would actually be a superior movement system, especially considering that we now have the turret to control while driving too. Perhaps both movement systems could be included.

[Xyntech]

Originally Posted by Coreldan

I like the idea too. Naturally it would have to have the tank physically turn those 90 degrees to right before it would actually move to the right when you press D, for example.

If the tank was stationary, it should turn 90 degrees before it starts moving.

If the tank is already moving, it should keep moving as it rotates those 90 degrees, maybe slowing down a little bit until it got past the 45 degree mark, at which point it would start speeding up again.

Maybe the sprint key could be used to start moving immediately if you were standing still and wanted to turn 90 degrees, but also wanted to start moving immediately.

Also let's not forget the all important holding W and A or W and D, etc. at the same time. 8 directions of movement is more than enough for infantry and should be perfect for vehicles as well. Of course 3 of those directions would probably be traveling in reverse, but considering that you want to keep your front armor facing your enemy, that's probably for the best.

[Coreldan]

Yeah, was thinking along those lines too, but couldn't really put it shortly into words and couldnt bother typing it the long way as I'm heading to sleep

[Blackwolf]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Judge first without all the information, thats the way to make a biased opinion all right.

Remember the vanny main turret? With the 10m instagib infantry splash? Yeah, they said it would instagib most infantry on a direct hit in PS2.

QFT, you should read and practice what you write.

I don't care if I die in one shot from a tank. It's war, it's a tank, and I'm wearing half an inch of whatever-high-tech-steel a Rexo suit is made of. I expect to die in one hit, and if I don't then I'll laugh my ass off at the game.

No what I'm worried about is my prey of choice not being on the battlefield. Think about it, if you can pilot and main gun a tank, why run around on foot at all? If you can jump in a deliverer and shoot from safety, why run around outside where you can't? I know these things were wanted since PS1 but honestly people don't think about how these things will impact the battlefield. It all just boils down to "I want what I want, I don't want to die, I just want to kill". That kind of mentality irritates me, and it just seems like that's the mentality the DEVs are catering to right now.

Not everyone flies because not everyone can do so effectively, or even like it. Ground combat, however, plays such a huge role in battle that EVERYONE will be familiar with it. And it doesn't take a military strategist to figure out what the most important and most powerful vehicle on the battlefield is. Even after BFRs came out, it was still the MBT. Because it had numerical and maneuverability advantages over the BFR. Drivers gunning their own vehicle has the very real potential to overpower the tank role in this game.

Am I wrong? Will there be an actual need for snipers to cover advancing friendlies and pin down enemy snipers and AV? Will I have a role other then sticking out of the ground like a sore thumb asking to be shot or run over or rocketed from the skies? And can you provide non-speculative proof of this?

I'm not saying this is how it will play out. I'm saying this is what I'm concerned about.

PS: I hope you're wrong about the Vanguard only killing on a direct hit. Seriously, it's a tank. How many tank rounds do you expect to survive while within 5m of the point of impact? Play Call of Duty, what happens when the tank sneezes in your general direction? You freaking die.