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Old 2013-10-23, 01:34 AM   [Ignore Me] #1
Mordelicius
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Fixing Spawn Camping & Sundy Wipes


I made this list last month after making this thread: http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...ad.php?t=56506 because I noticed the length of battles have been getting shorter due to either Sunderer wipes or Spawn camping/defense denial.

I didn't want to post it early because the Devs are focused on optimisation. Now that they seemed to be back on tuning gameplay, this it's time to make a new post.


Reducing Spawn Camping
:

Fix the Spawn Shield bug - Done for the most part except for some splash damage through walls on towers. See, I made this list for a while now that the first point is obsolete.

Five-second invulnerability after exiting shield (much needed mechanic)

- Players exiting spawnroom cannot be harmed for 5 seconds
- Players cannot use weapons, throw grenades, drop mines, Max abilities etc during that time.
- Players who exit on stealth can be damaged.
- Players who stealth before exiting will have the invulnerability cancelled.
- Players who use their special ability after exiting (shield, jumpjet, stealth etc.) will have their immunity cancelled.
- Players cannot use repair or heal gun nor can maxes be repaired upon the duration of invulnerability

This is essential for eliminating spawn camping. The problem with spawn camping is the stacked damage on the chokepoint exit. This kind of mechanic will allow players to move out, take cover or hit back from a very bad position (something that is not possible at this moment).

Reduce infantry ability to climb high slopes

When they increased the vehicle traction many months ago, infantry traction on terrain was also affected. As a result, infantry can traverse really steep terrain (something afforded normally to LAs). And as a result, this allows players to climp rocks next to spawn rooms. Reduce it back to what it once was. This will reduce spawn camping


Add large hitbox to secondary weapons

The secondary weapons mounted on Tanks and Harassers need their own hitbox. These players use low bumps, small rocks and even crates to hide their vehicle hitbox AND still deliver damage. All they have to do is expose the gun and they can fire at will at the spawn room.

AV Turret on top of a high cliff - This is similar to the above except they expose nothing but the tip of their gun and they can't be hit.

Add extra barriers on Tower exit points - Tanks have to do is point to the exit and spam HE and infantry will be trapped. With Liberators and ESF, there's no way to even contest the other points.

Harassers inside buidings (need painfield)

Harassers are being placed in areas where only infantry have access to (examples are/but not limited to Amp Station capture point floor and Tech Plants capture point floor). There should be an insurmountable painfield when Harassers are being put there starting at the stairs. These high dps monsters mow down infantry like nothing. I've been in fights where the defenders are outnumbered 3 to 1 and they can hold for so long so their reinforcements can arrive.

Amp Station SCU shield need to be blue not red

Again, Harassers (marauder/vulcan), Tanks and even OP Maxes are being used to suppress any movement coming for the SCU room. That's an infantry corridor. With the changes to the Amp Station capture mechanics, it's difficult to sally forth when even the alternative route is being locked down unfairly. Players from both the defenders and attackers shoudn't be able to shoot through the shield.

OR, if that's OP for the defenders, move down the shield close the SCU but turn it blue so players aren't slaughtered within the room


Spawn Beacon/hotdrops away from the Spawn room


Players shouldn't be able to drop on top of the Tower for example. Right now players drop near highly elevated places next to the spawnroom so they can spawn camp from there. Another bad spot is the Tech Plant roof. Players drop there nonstop AND there no elevator whatsoever to get to the top for the defenders. Add elevator to the roof of the Tech Plant. If not, add a painfield so attackers can't just camp there with a spawn beacon.


Mines sliding downhill
- Mines shouldn't slide downhill ( from their most optimally placed position ).

Reducing Sundy Wipes:

There's very little solution to this because it's mostly contigent on the Sunderer state (which atm is underpowered and very vulnerable)
.
Deployed Sunderes get bonus HP/Armor and less DPS

I know this will be used and abused as a Battle Sunderer if the DPS isn't reduced. Hence, whatever survivability bonus should have a commensurate reduction in attack capability when deployed.

Remove the No Deploy Zone - It was not necessary in the first place. It was a mistake and a false equivalency to compare Attacker/Defender spawns. Attackers have to protect their Sunderer and the Capture point(s) whereas defenders only have to worry about the capture point. There are so many downside to this heavy-handed-approach-to-remedying-poor-base-designs. The NDZ will not fix the less-than-ideal base designs. Rather it limits the gameplay.

The primary pressure for Sundy driver is not finding proximity spawn to capture points, but a safe spot to deploy. That alone doomed this concept.

Allow Engineers to repair from inside - Limited only to DEPLOYED Sundies. When a Sundy is deployed, 2 seats (4&5) inside should be allowed to repair. Give it a separate certline or a sidegrade to existing cert tree. Certing will open 1 seat. Certing will open 2nd seat.

It is very difficult to repair Sunderers from outside. If the engineers die from splash damage spam, the sunderer will be sure to follow.

Innate Radar to track Mine/C4 carrying enemies nearby - If not innate/free, allow us to cert a special radar that tracks only nearby enemies equipped/carrying Mines/C4 for all friendly players in that area.

It's far too easy to C4 and Mine Sunderers, not to mention the drop pods perfectly landing on the roof. This will be a good way to identify nearby threats about to suicide kill Sunderers. If possible make it a sidegrade to a weapon slot! Instead of of 2 weapons, I'm pretty sure, many players would rather have 1 special radar + 1 weapon combo.

That's it for now. Add any other suggestions to lower Sundy wipes and Spawn camping that's making fights really short. Thanks.
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Old 2013-10-23, 06:48 AM   [Ignore Me] #2
Stardouser
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Re: Fixing Spawn Camping & Sundy Wipes


It's bad enough that there even ARE shields, 5 second invul after passing through it is just going to be another freebie from the game that would make it more of a controlled deathmatch than it already is. Some other solution is needed. How about base redesign that prevents 10 tanks/sunderers/harassers from taking up circular positions and blanketing every door/top awning of spawn rooms? At least force mostly only infantry to be able to get in close. However, we still need a way to defeat a base through attrition and shut off their ability to spawn. In general, spawn camping is not the problem, it's the focus on one spawn room per outpost and the ability to have tanks blanket splash damage on every square inch of a spawn room's exits.


Also, repairs are very much overpowered already; allowing repairs from within a sunderer would be insane. I'm sure for tanks it's different, but splash damage from infantry AV rockets is a non-factor against the engineers if you're actually trying to kill the sunderer, and every shot you fire hoping to hurt engineers adds extra time for the engineers to repair any damage you did do.

This would allow sunderers to be able to deploy even closer without repercussions, and have base spawns protected, which together will create more meat-grindy fights that could only be won by bringing overwhelming force. You need the ability to destroy sunderers, and adding radar against minelayers/C4 would be an extreme casualization (in the sense of making it easy for the team owning the sunderer) that makes that hard. Some people just need to stay and defend the sunderer, instead of immediately flinging themselves at the base.

Taking out the no deploy zone is a good idea, but there needs to be some kind of limit on sunderer effectiveness for spawning if they are going to be unlimited again. Perhaps a sunderer could carry say, a charge of 400 spawns maximum? (number for example only)

Last edited by Stardouser; 2013-10-23 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 2013-10-23, 07:34 AM   [Ignore Me] #3
synkrotron
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Re: Fixing Spawn Camping & Sundy Wipes


I'm still quite new to the game so I cannot comment so much on the above other than some of the seggestions sound okay.

About "spawn camping," though, I agree with stardouser in that giving peeps invulnerability, for any amount of time, is not the answer. At the end of the day, we all have the option to redeploy (I know that much at least).

This is because, unlike other FPS games, with Planetside, if the enemy turns up with superior fire power/numbers then that is our problem, not theirs. There must be other ways to tackle this, even if it means pulling back to the next facility and forming up from there.

Just my ten pence... As I said, I'm still new to the game (and willing to listen and learn )
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Old 2013-10-23, 10:00 AM   [Ignore Me] #4
CraazyCanuck
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Re: Fixing Spawn Camping & Sundy Wipes


Spawns - redesign bases and put the spawns underground with infantry only access. They wouldn't have to change the surface designs very much by moving the spawn points underground. They could existing tunnels and add in as needed depending on the base's architechture. Insert more elevator pads to allow quick access to multiple points across the facility and its outlying areas. Similar to bio labs, add teleporters in Amp stations and Tech plants to the outlying proxie points as well.

Sunderers - Taking out mt sunderers is usually a fairly easy task solo or otherwise. A defended sunderer..not so much. There needs to be incentive to stay with the Sundy, as it is much more lucrative to go a hunting while leaving the nest undefended. It's the riskier decision. SOE could implement a sundy defense bonus similiar to the base defense. Ribbons could be awarded based on time spent within a set proximity of the sundy while it was threatened (ie. enemies with in a larger radius) and also number of enemies killed while defending.

As to the Tech plant roof spawn issue. Anyone can gain access to the roof from the turret level. Even a max. Use the turrets themselves to jump to the roof, though an elevator access would be more convient. Could just add a small elevator pad on either end like those in spawn rooms.
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Old 2013-10-23, 08:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #5
camycamera
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Re: Fixing Spawn Camping & Sundy Wipes


here i go again.... PS1 spawn rooms are the solution to the current crappy spawn rooms.
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Old 2013-10-23, 09:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #6
bpostal
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Re: Fixing Spawn Camping & Sundy Wipes


Originally Posted by camycamera View Post
here i go again.... PS1 spawn rooms are the solution to the current crappy spawn rooms.
I think the part of the design of the facility layouts in Planetside that helped with spawn camping was the fact that it was harder to camp the bottom exit (via the kitchen) than the upper two exits (which led to the same corridor and from there typically to the main throughway, the stairs). A force that's camping the top exits couldn't quickly react to a breakout in the basement.
This is akin to how those spawn camping at an Amp Station in PS2 can't quickly react to a breakout via the shield tunnels with the notable exception that once a defender pops up via the tunnels, they're fully committed to the assault. There's no going back down the tunnel. Plus when a defender jumps out of the tunnel, they're doing it either completely blind or with the minimal support of ping darts (which in turn can spoil any surprise assault because the enemy can see the dart's effect on their minimap).

Oh, and if you blew the gen? Say goodbye to a good chunk of your BEP/CEP. Want to blow the tubes? Better go get them (and hope the spawnroom painfield isn't superboosted).

All in all I think that spawn camping, while still prevalent and important to controlling the fight, wasn't as bad (in Planetside) is the fact that a total spawn camp usually only happened (in what I can remember of my experiences) later in the cap.
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Old 2013-10-24, 04:21 AM   [Ignore Me] #7
Boomzor
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Re: Fixing Spawn Camping & Sundy Wipes


Originally Posted by bpostal View Post
spawn camp usually only happened (in what I can remember of my experiences) later in the cap.
And NEVER by vehicles.
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Old 2013-10-29, 12:44 AM   [Ignore Me] #8
Mordelicius
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Re: Fixing Spawn Camping & Sundy Wipes


Originally Posted by Stardouser View Post
It's bad enough that there even ARE shields, 5 second invul after passing through it is just going to be another freebie from the game that would make it more of a controlled deathmatch than it already is. Some other solution is needed. How about base redesign that prevents 10 tanks/sunderers/harassers from taking up circular positions and blanketing every door/top awning of spawn rooms? At least force mostly only infantry to be able to get in close. However, we still need a way to defeat a base through attrition and shut off their ability to spawn. In general, spawn camping is not the problem, it's the focus on one spawn room per outpost and the ability to have tanks blanket splash damage on every square inch of a spawn room's exits.
It's not just vehicles that are spawn camping. it's also infantry. Example: Towers. If there is a 5 second invulnerability, players won't stand close to the shield exits because noone can score an easy kill and it will leave them open to counterattack. Also, it doesn't have to be 5 seconds. It could be 4 or 3 seconds. As long players are given enough time to get out of the room not take damage from a dozen players pointing at the door. I did say that players coming out cannot use weapons, or do repairs/heals. And if they use abilities, the immunity will auto-cancel.


Also, repairs are very much overpowered already; allowing repairs from within a sunderer would be insane. I'm sure for tanks it's different, but splash damage from infantry AV rockets is a non-factor against the engineers if you're actually trying to kill the sunderer, and every shot you fire hoping to hurt engineers adds extra time for the engineers to repair any damage you did do.
Not only Sunderers are easy to destroy. Engineers repairing are easy targets just repairing outside. Btw, I mean repair of sundy inside once deployed. I know what's going to happen if it's allowed while moving, it will turn to a battle Sunderer. It's not like an Engie can outrepair a rocket launcher, tank, turret or Max. Have you shot a Sundy lately?

This would allow sunderers to be able to deploy even closer without repercussions, and have base spawns protected, which together will create more meat-grindy fights that could only be won by bringing overwhelming force. You need the ability to destroy sunderers, and adding radar against minelayers/C4 would be an extreme casualization (in the sense of making it easy for the team owning the sunderer) that makes that hard. Some people just need to stay and defend the sunderer, instead of immediately flinging themselves at the base.
We won't be having this conversation if there's no No Deploy Zone. Sunderers are even more vulnerable since they now lack cover. The NDZ was unnecessary. It was a band-aid to poor base design. Apparently, they wanted the Defender-Attacker spawn to be equidistant to the capture point. To which I say, false equivalency. Defender spawn is indestructible. Attacker spawn can be blown up easily, hence they require manpower to defend. In addition, what's stopping defenders to spawn Sunderers anyway?

Taking out the no deploy zone is a good idea, but there needs to be some kind of limit on sunderer effectiveness for spawning if they are going to be unlimited again. Perhaps a sunderer could carry say, a charge of 400 spawns maximum? (number for example only)
I've suggested Spawn Jamming Sunderers, before, in this forum as an alternative to NDZ way even before they released it. If you deploy it and the AOE radius encompasses the target sunderer, then that Sunderer cannot spawn new players (they can deploy but not spawn). That would have been a better option. The Sunderer blocking-deploying-destroying meta would have added depth to the fight.

Imagine, the Sunderer got jammed. And you see the culprit counter Sundy on the minimap. Players will go for it and try to destroy it (while the defenders now try to defend it!). They opted for the stale and senseless NDZ....
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Old 2013-10-29, 04:31 AM   [Ignore Me] #9
Carbon Copied
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Re: Fixing Spawn Camping & Sundy Wipes


Cut the amount of small bases from the map and introduce some hard standing tower-esque points to spawn from. The towers serve no other purpose save to spawn from (no vehicle pulling) as there's bases and the major airpad towers for that; there needs to be some form of interim point that serves as an objective to make a push easier. Not required to be held in order to cap a base, you don't need them to advance on the lattice; they just serve as a tactical advantage point to both hold and deny. Introduce that and the AMS sunderer in it's current mobile and (some argue) vulnerable form has a place rather than trying to act in the void of mechanics between.

Maybe even think outside the box, do something cool and engaging where the AMS interfaces with these spawn towers as a requirement to powering it making the AMS a sort of "spawn generator". Taking the Sunderer closer to the base still has the risk/reward but having these interim points gives a safer option beyond "put it behind a pebble and hope someone doesn't c4 drop pod it".

Apart from that - spawn tubes, base design and a move away from these coffins that you maerialize in will alleviate spawn camping; potentially not cure it indefinitely but reduce it's occurences. The current design simply leaves no choice but to spawn camp as that is the "destroying the spawn tubes" alternative; lowering shields in the last few seconds of a base flip is a poor, lazy substitute.
This is just another topic that has had it's drum beaten loudly against deaf ears before though.
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Old 2013-10-29, 05:53 AM   [Ignore Me] #10
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Re: Fixing Spawn Camping & Sundy Wipes


See the link in my sig for idea's on reducing the spawn camping phase of every base fight in PS2 and replacing it with some gameplay and an infantry fight for the base.
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