El Jacko Hammero

[Angel_of_Death]

I've been seeing this tons of tons of times on the OF forums, and I'd like to discuss this here with civilized people :). And I haven't seeing nearly enough bitching in the past few weeks, so here we go.

The Jackhammer.

Opinions, thoughts, possible improvements/nerfs that can fix the JH, etc.

Here's my opinion on how to fix the JH: Take out triple shot. It doesn't make sense that the other two HA weapons have no secondary, but the most powerful one does. Take it out and no more instagib, bug exploits, whining.

PS: This thread probably has been started before but I'm lazy to search.

[Rbstr]

get rid of the 4 shot bug and you don't have instagib, I never had a 3 shot kill a person when i was using the JH

Also we need some way of making the fights move outside, like making Bunkers between the bases that you have to hack(as part of the latice) there would be no spawn points at those bunkers and that would force people outside, were the JH have VERY very limited power

[Spee]

Delete the HA certification. It sticks out like a sore thumb of unbalanced badness.

[UncleDynamite]

Fixing the Quad Shot will probably help in bringing the Jackhammer back in line. But Rbstr brings up a point: as long as indoor fights remain the core of PS, the Jackhammer will continue to rule the roost. Yes, we all have Sweepers, but it's still difficult to stand up to a group of Jackhammers

Edit: I agree with Spee to an extent. MA is currently very well balanced, and I think PS would be more enjoyable if we played just with them. All HA is powerful enough to kill in a few seconds, and I doubt that there is a significant number of people who like to be chopped down moments into a fight. A focus on MA would lessen the killing power of each individual soldier, making teamwork oh so much better. I can still see HA being a cert for, say, a deployable heavy machine gun or such, but nothing that an individual troop could use effectively without some lighter-armed individuals helping him/her.

[Vick]

I agree with Spee and UncleD, get rid of HA, make it deployable machine guns.

[Byteblock]

All the whining about the JH is really rediculous, and is the pinacle of fanboi mentality. If any person who thinks the JH is overpowered actually spent a decent amount of time playing all 3 empires he would quickly conclude that it is inline with the rest of the empires HA. Instead we have irrational and unfounded commentary.

[Rbstr]

MA isn't ballenced, Play with a pulsar, and a Guass for a while and realize the Cyclers increadible superiority.

But Relpacing HA with a kind of Machine gun version of the MA weapon, or Advanced MA in addition to the HA we have now

[Spee]

All the whining about the JH is really rediculous, and is the pinacle of fanboi mentality. If any person who thinks the JH is overpowered actually spent a decent amount of time playing all 3 empires he would quickly conclude that it is inline with the rest of the empires HA. Instead we have irrational and unfounded commentary.


Being as one to have levelled up each character to at least the double digits, on all three empires, I still say the jack is overpowered. One mouse button click, no matter WHAT weapon youre using, should not kill someone who spent 3 points on additional protection. The only way to survive a triple-shot is be at a range of more than 4 meters (Difficult in indoor combat) or have second wind. It also doesnt help that every NC with a jackhammer uses the goddamn third-person-lookaround trick.

However, I still say that HA does not have a reason to exist. Assault rifles, at current, are the most powerful Anti-Personnel weapon there is for infantry.

If they are not going to delete HA, then do include some insta-gib modes for the other weapons. Lashers can charge thier entire clip into one massive orb, the lash doing as much damage as a regular shot does. MCG's can fire from all 3 barells simultaneous, reducing the clip, effectively, to 33, but, also destroying the victim 3x as fast.

I have even taken out fucking LIGHTNINGS with my jack.


In short, delete HA. It has no purpose in this type of game.

[MilitantB0B]

I say keep HA in but modify it, severly. Stationary guns are good, maybe some sort of mortar system or a heavy suppress fire weapon, not good for taking out individual troops but good for making them think twice about poping from behind cover. As it stands now, even if they lowered the jack hammer down to the level of the lasher and MCG, they would still be MASSIVLY better then the Medium assault weapons. I just get tired of not being able to use an assault rifle (whose play style I like best) because I have to use some redicouls chaingun or lasher just to compete.

[Marsman]

SmokejumperPS: (Talking about the patch after next)

* Jackhammer is getting an automatic relaod after firing its tri-barrel shot. This reload can't be avoided. It's the drawback to the gigantic damage caused by the tri-barrel. Fire the tri-barrel, then wait for reload before you can fire again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

- Don't get too upset about the JH change. It basically just prevents the extra "fourth" shot from occurring. The tri-barrel is still devastatingly effective if you run into someone in a corridor. Bang! You're dead.

- The reduction in shotgun ammo puts NC players on par with players in other Empires. We realize that NC players won't like it, but the fact is, they could carry too much stuff in their inventories (compared to other Empires) and that was tipping balance incorrectly. This makes the game more balanced and is an important change. Despite the fact that it's a "nerf". :D

[Dharkbayne]

marsman, they got rid of the reload thing, they're just making you wait like, 1.25 seconds between switching from single shot and triple shot

[Happy lil Elf]

I have even taken out fucking LIGHTNINGS with my jack. Then those Lightnings were either
A. Severly Damaged.
B. Empty.
C. Driven by a complete and utter moron.

If it's A or B then it's not all that suprising and I promise you the other two HA weapons would have been able to accomplish the exact same thing with little to no difficulty. If it's C, again, not a big deal. Incompetent people die, it happens.

Every Empires HA can take out light armor, if that light armor either can't fight back, doesn't fight back or is too horrible at the game to fight back properly. I've taken out Reavers with a stolen Lasher, because they were too dumb to shoot at me rather than the other guy who was sniping and Mossys trying to hover over a tower make great targets for a MCG with AP loaded.

Now if someone was taking out Lightnings routinely with a Jackhammer in 1v1 fights I'd agree that's out of wack. But I have yet to hear anyone boast of being able to do so and honestly without seeing it first hand there's absolutely no way I could believe it.

[Spee]

I agree completely, but it amused me to no end that I went 1v1 with a jackhammer + AP rounds and won. Yes, the guy was a complete moron that didnt remember lightning primary has splashj *wa hiding behind tree to reload*

[Happy lil Elf]

Jesus, you forum troll. Three minutes before you reply :lol:

[Spee]

Jesus, you forum troll. Three minutes before you reply :lol:


Ive replied faster.



Forums are like IRC only permanantly recorded.

[TheN00b]

I saw this one thread that favored replacing the Jackhammer in NC HA with a large, slow-firing railgun that was affective at medium range. Seems to me like that would fit the HA mold more than the Jackhammer does.

[Marsman]

marsman, they got rid of the reload thing, they're just making you wait like, 1.25 seconds between switching from single shot and triple shotAnd you got this info from ... where? I just went thru the dev tracker for that info - afaik, that's the latest.

[Warborn]

Delete the HA certification. It sticks out like a sore thumb of unbalanced badness.

I completely agree. Nothing good comes out of mobile weapons that can be carried by infantry which kill you in a second indoors. I loved it when HA universally sucked and all fights were done primarily with MA weapons. HA completely sucks.

The stationary, deployable weapons would be a great replacement for HA.

[Rempel]

Hmmmm we got some good ideas going on here. I like that idea about having some group of deployable weapons such as machine gun'ss and mortar's. I also liked the idea about the Rail gun. that would be alot cooler than the JH. but i don't see what all the complaining is about. i used the JH before and i don't see what it has over the minigun or the lasher. sure it's got that burst fire thingy and is really good in close quarters but so are two or three TR guy's carying miniguns. in any case, having bunkers that need to be captured to create a lattice is a super idea. if SOE ever asks if we want that ill be sure to say hell yeah!

[Dharkbayne]

And you got this info from ... where? I just went thru the dev tracker for that info - afaik, that's the latest.


On the OF, I'll get the link later, it was from SmokeJumperPS

[Rbstr]

God i love fights when HA is not involved, We had one last week, we were the last NC on teh cont and had the tower out in the middle of noware and a samll band of VS kept somaing and we heald out for quite awhile, no HA involved(a max one each side though) it was so awsome

[Veteran]

I don't like Heavy Assault either. More credits for a bigger gun is all it is. Play with the little vehicles all you want, the real fight is always inside the base, where close-quarters combat is unavoidable. The 'tactical' applications of Heavy Assault basically include capping off a Quake mentality or a warping exploit.

[Happy lil Elf]

Totally agree on the stationary weapons as a replacment for HA. I don't see it happening unfotunately.

[VashTheStamped]

leave The Jackhammer Alone You Whinning Babys.

Nc Is Suppossed To Have The Strongest Weapons. Read Your Manual. Stop Complaining.

[Vick]

leave The Jackhammer Alone You Whinning Babys.

Nc Is Suppossed To Have The Strongest Weapons. Read Your Manual. Stop Complaining.


Dumbass, you do not even have a single fact to support your argument. Do you think that is what they meant by "most powerful"?

How the fuck did you even get to be a moderator??

[MrCovertMan]

removing HA would make: NC :tear: for their beloved jackhammer. TR :mad: cause they only recently got a decent HA. and the VS :D cause honestly alot of us never really liked our HA
hey ya know what....maybe we should remove HA :lol:
right now friendlies run around a recently capped base with a looted jackhammer and start firing into the air near crowds to make people freak out

[Veteran]

Yah, that's some pretty poorly thought-out commentary, Vash.

[Rbstr]

By strongest he means hardest hitting

[Rempel]

OMG, you people! i can't belive your still arguing about how powerfull the jack hammer is. start up a new charecter, use the JH. IT'S NOT THAT GOOD! i have the cert, I don't use the stupid gun. I will stick with my gauss. let's talk about how dumb it is that you cant go prone! WTF is up with that, you could gain a seriouse tactical advantage if you could lie down in the battle field, SOE hear me!

[MrCovertMan]

By strongest he means hardest hitting
ok so the NC are about power. the TR are about more = better. the Vs are about versatility and or mobility. so why give the NC a TRIPLE barreled shotgun? I thought the TR was for more = better. Remove the 2 extra barrels, lower it's refire and beef up the Jackhammers damage to = 1.5 to 1.75 sweeper shots.

[Veteran]

We were trying to talk about Heavy Assault in general before the crapstorm rolled in.

Jackhammer = quad-shot exploit. Just so you know, it is the most powerful. By far.

[Destroyeron]

MA isn't ballenced, Play with a pulsar, and a Guass for a while and realize the Cyclers increadible superiority.

But Relpacing HA with a kind of Machine gun version of the MA weapon, or Advanced MA in addition to the HA we have now


I disagree, I find MA very well balanced. Tr's got the speed, vs the accuracy, and NC the power. I think MA is very equal, I like pulsars the most because there the most accurate.

[Rbstr]

Well the 3 barrles give it 3x the pellets at the same time, what would you rather we have the redeemer form UT2k3 or something?

[MrCovertMan]

Well the 3 barrles give it 3x the pellets at the same time, what would you rather we have the redeemer form UT2k3 or something?
yeah! just move the radiator to the NC HA and give it's damage field the power of a OS!

[Spee]

I mean. All weps but HA have tactics involved.


MA - Control the COF bloom in order to hit your opponant from medium-long distances.
BD - Position yourself a few hundred KM's away, and learn to lead your target.
AV - NC: Find cover, shoot, pilot missle. TR - Bob, weave, strafe, but keep the damn lock-on. VS - See BD tactics.
SA - Deci - Shoot at ground, as with all rocket-type weapons.
Thumper - Learn the arc, and, indoors, bounce grenades around corners for excellent supression.
Rocklet - Engage at medium distances, aim at ground.
HA - SPAM UNTIL EVERYTHING IS DEAD. Surge away, reload, Rinse, repeat.



WHICH ONE DOESNT BELONG?!

[Rempel]

why the one involving spam of course, spam is yuckie!

[MuNsTeR]

Delete the HA certification. It sticks out like a sore thumb of unbalanced badness.
i agree, but everyone else wont

[shaizan]

OMG, you people! i can't belive your still arguing about how powerfull the jack hammer is.

I would not call this an arguement. I would call it a discussion, and civil discussion about the Jackhammer is difficult to come by. This thread is a refereshing change, actually.

start up a new charecter, use the JH. IT'S NOT THAT GOOD!

I did, and it is. Personally, I am outright lousy with HA type weapons. In fact I spend most of my time in support roles due to my poor connection where I live. (Not something I can easily get around) However, even I can do a decent amount of damage using a Jackhammer. I take that as my personal subjective evidence of it's superiority. What do I consider decent? A solid 3-4 man kill run onto a tower or in a hallway is decent by my definition. Someone with skill is much more horrendous to deal with.

Not to mention the Jackhammer frustrates the tar out of me. I have just logged off the game in disgust countless times rather than get trippled shoted for the umpteenth time in an evening's play. Yes, I'm aware there are some counters to HA weapons, but none are nearly as effective against the Jackhammer as the other two weapons. The Jackhammer has an implant (surge) that mitigates it's primary weakness (lack of range) with brutal efficeincy. Are there other emprie HA 'Surgiles'? Of course, but it is not as a beautiful a marriage as the Jackhammer.

I personally think the Jackhammer enjoys it's popularity and usefulness due to ease of use and ease of adaptablity of playstyle. Alot of the dedicated FPS crowd is used to bunny hop and shoot style gaming. The Jackhammer allows for this style of play. The style that alot of the hardcore FPS folks enjoy and are quite proficient with.

Personally, I got into Planetside for the scale of large tactical battles and not fragfest jump-a-bout types of play. I know alot of folks like that, and that's cool, but it's not for me. Planetside for me is about the scale and taking of territory for the Soverignty or the Republic (Depending on the night :))

[Rbstr]

i personaly didn't feel the JH was all it was craked up to be from listening to the forums when i had it for a while, I felt the the lightning was a better choise for my cert points

[Marsman]

SmokejumperPS: We found a more subtle way to fix the JH problem.
No more "auto-reload" and we're not nerfing the bullets.

We're simply adding a "firing mode switch delay" of 0.75 seconds. This kicks in when you change from primary to secondary fire modes.

The primary fire mode has a reload time of 0.5 seconds.

The tri-barrel has the increased power of firing three shots all at once.

Now you have to decide whether you want that second primary shot in slightly less time than it takes to switch to secondary, or whether you want to take the delay and switch to tri-barrel instead.

Should work nicely, and doesn't touch the balance of that weapon in a savage fashion at all. It just eliminates the ease of the "four-barrel" attack that occurred previously...which is all we were *trying* to stop.Yup I stand corrected - missed that post. Thanks for setting me straight.

[Acaila]

What would "balance" the JH then?

[illusionz]

Take out triple shot. It doesn't make sense that the other two HA weapons have no secondary, but the most powerful one does.

good point

[Heavygain]

I love my Mini chaingun and i dont think they should get rid of heavy assault because every weapon type has its place, medium is medium to long range and HA is short range, its this simple. Get rid of triple shot, its total bull for the weapon to have it.

[BadAsh]

I love my Mini chaingun and i dont think they should get rid of heavy assault because every weapon type has its place, medium is medium to long range and HA is short range, its this simple. Get rid of triple shot, its total bull for the weapon to have it.

I completely agree.

[KIAsan]

Jackhammer is almost balanced right now. Once they fix the 4 barrel exploit, and kick in those ammo reductions, I think it will be perfectly balanced. BTW, for you VS out there, Lasher buff coming from what I have read.

Prediction time: J/H whining in the future will be about how it's been nerfed too much. And we will be seeing Lasher threads about how overpowered it is. Let the whining commence.

[Onizuka-GTO]

mmm...Lasher not really getting much of a buff, only a ammo clip size increase thats all...

[ghost018]

Me personally, I'd rather have an MCG. But yeah, take out the secondary fire and I think it would be perfect.

ghost

[UncleDynamite]

As it stands, HA is getting more balanced (or may even be more balanced than some of us may think, I don't know). But regariding all of PS's weapons as a whole, HA is way out of whack: the MA line (including the Sweeper and Punisher) are largely unused because most of the fighting takes place within HA range (and with surge, more so). The SA line of weapons are still useful, but HA can usually match much of what SA offers (except for the Thumper's indirect fire).

While I know it won't happen any time soon, dropping HA would not be all that bad. It'll give MA new life and make Special Assault even more special. Besides, MAXes offer plenty of heavy guns, so why do we need another certification with yet another line of big-hittin weaponry? Let's drop HA. Yes, the XP whores will cry, but we honestly need less of them and more teamplayers.

[ghost018]

I don't think using Heavy Assault makes you an experience whore. :rolleyes:

ghost

[Acaila]

Lasher is also having the 5m before lash thing removed, so it will lash straight away.

[Warborn]

I don't think using Heavy Assault makes you an experience whore. :rolleyes:

ghost

HA weapons are the best weapons in the game for close range infantry killing. Period. While you may not be using the specifically for experience, if your primary interest is killing people, HA is where it's at. The other weapons assume a "this is what I use if I don't have HA role" when the HA weapons are on the field. And, personally, I think that sucks. Good FPS games have no one, single, clear and obviously more powerful weapon in most situations, or if they do, it is hard to get to and keep loaded with ammo. The weapons all have various characteristics which make them good in only some situations, so that no weapon can universally dominate. But PS does have a weapon which is all you need in most fights. And that compared to early Beta when HA sucked and everyone used a variety of weapons, I think HA is one of the worst thing to ever happen to PS.

[Seer]

I agree with Sputty. Remove or drastically change the HA certification.

[Madcow]

Lasher is also having the 5m before lash thing removed, so it will lash straight away.

Lasher is also having the reload time reduced. So larger clip, less reload time, lash restrictions removed. That definitely qualifies as a buff, and more power to them.

[Onizuka-GTO]

Everyone keeps saying: "lash restrictions" but what does it mean? And how does this make the Lasher any better?

[SpunkJackel]

Man, I can't even believe people are serously thinking that getting rid of the HA cert is a good idea. And turning it into a only stationar deployable is such a waste. Like fuk people, who wants to blow 4 certs on something like that. Ever notice how a turrets gets wasted in the first moments of battle, now wtf do you think would happen to some sort of deployed machine gun nest.

I see part of the argument to get rid of the HA as "HA kills too fast..."..like...wtf...I die in a matter of seconds to reaver rockets, they should be taken out of the game. Also, MAX's kill me way to fast, we definatly need to take the MAX's out of the game. Oh, and thase damm land mines, 2-3 mines and I'm dead???? WTF!!! Take out the damm mines. And once I ran in lava and I died in a matter of seconds, OMFG NERF!!! :rant:

HA is fine, the JACK is Fine, or will be fine once they fix the 4 shot exploit. Recently I started a TR character and all I got is MA at the moment, I really don't have too much trouble taking on a REXO Jack user with my Agil cycler load out. The weapons in the game are good, they may need to be modified a bit but don't sugest to remove a entire weapon class from a game, variety is the spice of life people.

[Madcow]

Everyone keeps saying: "lash restrictions" but what does it mean? And how does this make the Lasher any better?

The lashes will work within 5 meters, which they did not previously do. Because of the whacked out way that the Lasher fires it's actually possible to miss a target from 5 meters, so that lash damage makes the gun more effective up close.

[Veteran]

Getting rid of HA would make PlanetSide into a far better game.

Something that simple will never affect the status quo, however.

edit: As for Lasher, you can't miss. The purple menace should find that quite serviceable.

[_-Gunslinger-_]

I didnt renew my subscription because of HA. Not because it kills to fast or that there are 4 shot exploits. But because I can go play DOD for free and get faster paced instagib. So give me a good reason to pay $12 a month for what DOD gives me?

Ok so there are vehicles. Ok. Wait doesnt Biowasteland and Shifter have that + more deployables? Hmm looks like Im gonna go play a game with worse grafics but more actual gameplay.

If the HA cert were removed I would come back INSTANTLY! The game actually requires skill then. Current HA isnt even on par with CS skill curves. At least you need to get a Headshot to kill in under a second. In PS you just need to just hit and do the same damage anywhere. Im not advocating for hitboxes. But no hitboxes + instagib = skilless game.

[Veteran]

When you get initiative on a lasherman with a Sweeper and he still kills you, you know Lasher isn't the POS that the ever-dissatisfied Vanu claim it is -- and it hasn't even been re-buffed yet.

Heavy Assault, like Surge, sucks.

[SpunkJackel]

Man, I still don't get it. How is everyone running around indoors with either a MAX or a sweeper a good thing? I just really don't get it...you guys must be really boring in life..

[Veteran]

Not everyone is 'running around indoors'. Some of us are repairing shit, laying deployables, driving vehicles.

We just want to rest assured that our shock troops aren't getting owned by Surge, HA and a lag chaser.

[SandTrout]

Man, I still don't get it. How is everyone running around indoors with either a MAX or a sweeper a good thing? I just really don't get it...you guys must be really boring in life.As it stands, you're either running around with HA, a MAX, or you're dead indoors. Without HA, you would see more SA and MA which have many more weapons within the certs than HA.

I agree that HA should be removed. If you want to get a lot of kills on infantry close up, grab an AI MAX, it's what they're made for.

Failing that, I do have a backup idea.

Replacement for the JH:
A heavy grenade rifle that fires grenades that are smaller than your standard rocklet round, but with much higher velocity and somewhat higher ROF. Something like 12 for the magazine size.

[infinite loop]

The Jackhammer is fine the way it is, period. HA is balanced. Flame away.

[Veteran]

No need for flames. HA is a vulgar, short-sighted way to keep crack-babies from cancelling their accounts to go back in search of the BFG.

[SpunkJackel]

SA - not for close up face2face fighting

MA - except for the sweeper, the weapons here are not meant for point blank action

MAX - Good for infantry/air suppression, but lack's versitality and quik movement.

So, we lose HA and we have a big gap in weapon slection. There is nothing that can be used effectively indoors or at close quarters fighting. You may say " WRONG N00B, ther is the sweeper!!!" the sweaper can be constantly out preformed by empire specfic MA, even at face2face range. That's why a peson spends 4 CERTS on the big guns so they can beat empire specific up close. Then you may say again "WRONG N00B, Max's own up close!!!" While a max can be effective up close it is rather easy to take one out and is is most often the first thing to fall. Not to mention you can't do anything else as a MAX except shoot, no hack, no eng, and no med.

Taking HA from Planetisde is like taking skates from Ice Hockey. Sure the game can still work but everyone becomes instagibbed.

Really, if you guys have a problem with somthing so core to the game as the HA weapons then maybe this is not the game for you. HA is somehing that has always been at will always be. You can try, but I don't think you can change it.

[infinite loop]

No need for flames. HA is a vulgar, short-sighted way to keep crack-babies from cancelling their accounts to go back in search of the BFG.


Maybe you should go back to a tactical shooter like Ghost Recon, or something similar. You're obviously playing the wrong game.

[Veteran]

Nah, I don't think so. If I were the only anti-HA advocate, perhaps, but I think a lot of people can imagine a better PlanetSide where Surge, Heavy Assault and exploitation doesn't equal leaderboard dominance.

[infinite loop]

Nah, I don't think so. If I were the only anti-HA advocate, perhaps, but I think a lot of people can imagine a better PlanetSide where Surge, Heavy Assault and exploitation doesn't equal leaderboard dominance.

There may very well be other people who have those same desires, but it doesn't matter. The game was obviously designed to have HA as a major part of play. I don't see this ever changing. So either you guys just live with it, or like I said, play another game. I highly doubt even close to the majority of players would vote to remove HA.

[Veteran]

'Love it or leave it' doesn't apply here. I can debate the validity of my point all I want without having to make the decision to leave PlanetSide behind in favor of my idealism.

I'm just here to discuss my opinion of the ideal. No need to talk about leaving the game.

[TheN00b]

Meh, I believe that the entire point of HA is that it's weapons should be balanced detween two thing. The first of these things is that HA weapons should be a bit more powerful than MA weapons. No one's going to invest 4 Cert points into a weapon that is not any better than cheaper Cert weapons are. Therefore, it should be logical to Support Role players and Pilots that MA will be a better choice for them, as they can thus get more support/vehicular certs, but that HA players will own them, at least at close range, the majority of the time. The second balancing factor is that HA should not be a requirement for a soldier who is into doing primarily wet-work. Soldiers should be able to own HA with MA some of the time, but mostly at medium-long range, because HA is specifically designed for close range encounters.
First and foremost, I believe that Surge should be adjusted in order to prevent Surge monkeys from dominating less aggressive players. Flame me if you want (and at your own risk), but I think that Surge should not work while a player has a weapon in his hand. Second, I believe that, when one MA player and one HA player face off, and those players are of equal skill, the win ratios should look something like this:

Within 5 meters, HA should win 85% of the time.
Within 15 meters, HA should win 60% of the time.
Within 30 meters, HA should win 45% of the time.
Beyond 50 meters, HA should win about 15% of the time.

I believe that those win ratios will help equalize, at least within fairness, MA and HA. Provided, of course, that the above change to Surge is nade, and that the adjustments to varoius weapons provided below will be included.
The problem with the Jackhammer, as I see it, is that it was designed with a different premise than the other 2 HA weapons in mind. Both the Lasher and the Mini-Chaingun are more designed to provide light suppression fire at moiderate range, and to be quite powerful within the range of 10 meters. The Jackahammer, however, is designed to be useless outside 10 meters, and utterly overpowering within 5, especially because of the 'Trip-Shot'. Therefore, I propose that the Jackhammer be ditched in favor of creating an entirely different New Conglomerate HA gun. Thus I propose the Kinetically Charged Railgun, or the KCR.

KCR

Description: The MACE is a large rifle that is quite similiar to the Gauss in concept. It fires a small, tubular projectile that is magnetically accelerated to very high speeds. Rather than having any explosive force, the KCR's rounds rely solely on massive kinetic force to damage targets, hence the name. It is shaped much like the M-16 of today's military, and is the size of an ordinary rifle.

Specs:
RoF: 1 shot per .75 seconds (80 rounds per minute).
CoF: Moderately large while standing, very small when crouched.
Damage: 80
Ammunition Packs: These are the size of a normal packet, and carry 15 rounds, as does the gun itself when equipped from the EQ terminal.
Gun size: As mentioned above, the KCR takes up inventory space equal to all current HA weaponry.


Comments, questions, flames? Bring 'em on.

[infinite loop]

'Love it or leave it' doesn't apply here. I can debate the validity of my point all I want without having to make the decision to leave PlanetSide behind in favor of my idealism.

I'm just here to discuss my opinion of the ideal. No need to talk about leaving the game.

Ok, fair enough. You're obviously entitled to debate things however you want. I'm still trying to find any validity in your point though ;)

[SpunkJackel]

The problem with the Jackhammer, as I see it, is that it was designed with a different premise than the other 2 HA weapons in mind. Both the Lasher and the Mini-Chaingun are more designed to provide light suppression fire at moiderate range, and to be quite powerful within the range of 10 meters. The Jackahammer, however, is designed to be useless outside 10 meters, and utterly overpowering within 5, especially because of the 'Trip-Shot'.

3 different empires, 3 different themes, 3 different weapons.

Jack fits nicely into the Hit hard NC theme, and no where does it say empire specific weapons of different empires should be similiar, infact it should be quite the opisite.

While a Rail gun is a sweet weapon, it is a ranged weapon, a very far ranged weapon. HA is not suppoe to be ranged and would offset balance to have a weapon that fires far and hits (bites?) harder then Mike Tyson. Plus, a rail gun is some High Tech stuff and the NC are the Junk Yard warrior empire, it really doesn't fit their theme.

[Warborn]

SA - not for close up face2face fighting

MA - except for the sweeper, the weapons here are not meant for point blank action

MAX - Good for infantry/air suppression, but lack's versitality and quik movement.

So, we lose HA and we have a big gap in weapon slection. There is nothing that can be used effectively indoors or at close quarters fighting. You may say " WRONG N00B, ther is the sweeper!!!" the sweaper can be constantly out preformed by empire specfic MA, even at face2face range. That's why a peson spends 4 CERTS on the big guns so they can beat empire specific up close. Then you may say again "WRONG N00B, Max's own up close!!!" While a max can be effective up close it is rather easy to take one out and is is most often the first thing to fall. Not to mention you can't do anything else as a MAX except shoot, no hack, no eng, and no med.

During early Beta when HA was trash we didn't have any problem using MA weapons like the Cycler indoors. I think you're very much incorrect in saying the MA weapons except for Sweeper weren't meant for point blank fighting. The Rocklet is also good at close ranged, and given the range of the Thumper it's decent for support in close combat too. All that HA does is overshadow and destroy all of the other weapons indoors. It's the BFG of Planetside, only you start with it automatically. I'm kind of tired of battles being decided by who can rush more HA users into the fight than the other guy.

Taking HA from Planetisde is like taking skates from Ice Hockey. Sure the game can still work but everyone becomes instagibbed.

Really, if you guys have a problem with somthing so core to the game as the HA weapons then maybe this is not the game for you. HA is somehing that has always been at will always be. You can try, but I don't think you can change it.

It's possible for HA to be removed or redone. I think it's a deterimental aspect of the game and believe more good would come out of it being reworked or removed than if it were to stay in. One weapon designed to completely dominate all other weapons in the most important and most common types of fights (indoors and close range) just isn't good. If we talk about it enough, maybe we can get the devs to talk about it too, and maybe they'll see it how we do.

[TheN00b]

Jackel, I happen to think that it is quite unfair that the majority of fighting takes place inside, and that the Jackhammer has the obvious advantage over the other two in that setting. As for your problems with the KCR's lack of theme with the 'Cong ideas, think of this as very different from a normal 'railgun'. Like I referred to in the post, this is not high-tech at all: It is powered entirely by kinetic energy, and would probably be possible for military forces of our time to create, albeit slightly less powerful. You're right, nothing says that Empire-Specific weapons have to be similiar because they are part of the same Cert. But nowhere does it state that one Empire has the right to have a severe advantage in the predominant fighting arena.

[Alphex]

My thoughts as a relative PS newbie: I initially tried using the JH because I thought having a weapon like that would help me learn the ropes of the game a little. I didn't warp intentionally and I never used the 4-shot. I found that I died very, very often. So often, that I basically gave up on grunt work and considered only using vehicles from now.

Recently I gave the Gauss a try. The difference was incredible; with Gauss and Rexo I racked up kills at least twice as fast as when I was using the Hammer, and I even get a free cert point that way. Overall, I don't think the Hammer is just that great. Fix the obvious exploits (warping and 4-shotting) and the whole thing looks really tame.

And personally, I think the gameplay with MA is also much more interesting: If you kill someone that way, instead of just having out-twitched your enemy you actually feel you used better tactics than them to take them down.

[infinite loop]

My thoughts as a relative PS newbie: I initially tried using the JH because I thought having a weapon like that would help me learn the ropes of the game a little. I didn't warp intentionally and I never used the 4-shot. I found that I died very, very often. So often, that I basically gave up on grunt work and considered only using vehicles from now.

Recently I gave the Gauss a try. The difference was incredible; with Gauss and Rexo I racked up kills at least twice as fast as when I was using the Hammer, and I even get a free cert point that way. Overall, I don't think the Hammer is just that great. Fix the obvious exploits (warping and 4-shotting) and the whole thing looks really tame.

And personally, I think the gameplay with MA is also much more interesting: If you kill someone that way, instead of just having out-twitched your enemy you actually feel you used better tactics than them to take them down.

I think that too often, people with rexo only use either MA or HA, but not both. I don't understand this, you've got room for alot of crap in rexo. I personally carry, in my default loadout, a Gauss, Deci, and JH. I use my Gauss everywhere outside, and inside for hallways. I think there is a use for both MA and HA, you just have to find where it works for you. The JH will still be incredibly potent after the quad-shot fix, don't kid yourself. I find it equally rewarding getting kills with any weapon, because I try to use tactics at all times. I'm not a bum-rusher very often. Outsmarting the enemy or using the element of surprise definitely makes a kill more enjoyable.

[Alphex]

I think that too often, people with rexo only use either MA or HA, but not both.

Once I gain a few more cert points, I might try that; it's not really an option at the moment though. Also, I think I'll first get Engineering.

[SpunkJackel]

Hope no one minds if we keep this going, it is farely interesting and I'm bored stiff here at work...anyway

To Warborn, first of this isn't beta. But one of the poblems with using the rocklet in doors and in your face is that while I may cause dammage to the enmy standing 1 meter away in a narrow halway I will also do dammage to myself and any friendlies near by. Which is not so effective. Also most people now carry plasma nades in their thumper and while plasma nades do alot of damage indoors you are liable to injure more than a few friendlies with the splah. One of they key elements to an indoor close quarters weapon is control.

While the Empire Specific MA does do the job in close quarters it still not really designed to. Like, I don't think you can tell me that if this game was realease wihth just the MA stuff and no HA you would not feel like something is missing.

And dude, you may be tired of having battles decided by who ever has the most HA users but in the same sense I am tired of battles being decided by who ever can get the most Hvy Tanks and Reavers and such into the battle. Does that mean we lose most of the vech's from the game? Hope not...

And you are right, it is posible to remowrk the HA and not remove it, but...I persoannly find the HA pretty good right now, dare I say better than it has ever been. I can say with honestly that the Jack is my least favorite of the three and would not loot one the way it is. It really isn' as super 1337 as people say indoors and up close. It is good, but not superman good.

And to TheNoob. Sure we got rail gun's with our current tech. But last heard the smallest one could only be mounted on a battleship. (Err...I may have stole that from a movies so that coul be the wrongest peice of info ever) But christ if they gave NC a rail gun let them have a rail gun, it really wouldn't bother me too mucc. But the thing is I don't belive the Jack as some super power advantage at close range, at least nothing like it use to. It seems fairly balanced and while it may be better then say my Lasher or MCG in close proximity it is nothing that can't be easily overcome. I NEVER come face2face with a NC Jack user and think " OMFG, I'm dead why even try..." I know I have a dam good chance to kill him.

[TheN00b]

Two things:

a) Jackel, do you know what kinetic energy is?

and b) Sure, I am perfectly aware that my enemies do not scream in terror and roll into a fetal position when they see me come around the corner with my Jackhammer. But I believe that all of the weapons should be pretty much or at least close to equal at various ranges. Would you agree that the Jackhammer, except in very rare cases, almost always has at the very least a 5% percent advantage over the enemy indoors?

[Warborn]

To Warborn, first of this isn't beta. But one of the poblems with using the rocklet in doors and in your face is that while I may cause dammage to the enmy standing 1 meter away in a narrow halway I will also do dammage to myself and any friendlies near by. Which is not so effective. Also most people now carry plasma nades in their thumper and while plasma nades do alot of damage indoors you are liable to injure more than a few friendlies with the splah. One of they key elements to an indoor close quarters weapon is control.

Thanks for clearing up the Beta part. I didn't realize it isn't Beta anymore. As for the Rocklet, I used to use it a lot indoors and I didn't have a problem with it. You get a little FF here and there, but that's no reason to ignore its effectiveness against both infantry and MAXs. Weapon control means controlling the weapon you're using, after all. Not stowing any weapon which may possibly harm friendlies.

While the Empire Specific MA does do the job in close quarters it still not really designed to. Like, I don't think you can tell me that if this game was realease wihth just the MA stuff and no HA you would not feel like something is missing.

I felt everything was fine back when we didn't use HA. Some people used sweepers, some used MA, but both did their job fine.

And dude, you may be tired of having battles decided by who ever has the most HA users but in the same sense I am tired of battles being decided by who ever can get the most Hvy Tanks and Reavers and such into the battle. Does that mean we lose most of the vech's from the game? Hope not...

No, it doesn't, but it does mean vehicles need to be addressed. That's not what this thread is for, however.

And you are right, it is posible to remowrk the HA and not remove it, but...I persoannly find the HA pretty good right now, dare I say better than it has ever been. I can say with honestly that the Jack is my least favorite of the three and would not loot one the way it is. It really isn' as super 1337 as people say indoors and up close. It is good, but not superman good.

It's better than anything else, and that's the whole point.

[SpunkJackel]

Right...tough to keep up...

Ahh..kenetic energy, energy of motion. So the damage is keneic instead of explosive...not sure what difference it makes in a game...I mean its all about the stats any way. I could say one thing is explosive and one is kenetic but the values I punch in at the end is what decideds it...no matter, looks as if I missed your point.

Advantage for Jack is that it does high damage instanly, You shoot and the pellets hit. Sure an advantage but it has downsides and really no longer poses a huge threat. It may have a 5% advantage over any other who does not have HA or a MAX. But that's it. Lasher or MCG user vs Jack User...and everyone knows what they are doing and how each weapons works, the playing field is pretty level.

War..ahh...ok last point there. jack is better then everything else BS. Jack no where near has the cababilities of the lasher to suppress NME's that try to come down a hall. And the MCG has some dcent range and a nice and large clip. So the Jack has it's advantage as well do the other weapons.

[Angel_of_Death]

Exactly, each HA weapon has its advantages over the others. JH has incredible close-range capabilities. Lasher is easily the best for suppressing fire. And the MCG is the best at range, and has a large ammo clip.

People complain about the JH alot is because the majority of fights have been pushed indoors. With most fights indoors, the JH gets to do what it does best.

I loot JH's when I can, only because I like change every once in a while, but if I had the option to pick any three of the HA weapons, I'd take lasher followed by MCG, with JH in 3rd. Maybe it's because I used the Lasher for most of my PS time, or just because I don't like the JH in general.

Ok but I don't understand what's so hard about deleting triple-shot.

[Onizuka-GTO]

...with a NC Jack user and think " OMFG, I'm dead why even try..."

You know I've said that to myself a few times, :(
Getting killed by Jackhammers repeatedly really really annoys me, I have no rational explaination (If anyone does, please tell me), and what's more bizarre is that don't get worked up the same if i keep dying by MCG or Lasher. :confused:

Thing is thought, that trail of thought you said, eventually changes to: "ARRGGGHHH! I'm going to keep trying & trying until I killed at leased one! ONE! Those *�):{L>*^&%$!!!!!1111ONE"

:rolleyes:

[Angel_of_Death]

If you keep getting raped by JH's and it's really pissin you off, then a change of tactics is in order...get a MAX or something.

[Spee]

If you keep getting raped by JH's and it's really pissin you off, then a change of tactics is in order...get a MAX or something.


Ahh yes, you should see the JackWhore's flail about in thier complete impotence as a quasar walks into the room and starts zapping them all.


Brings a tear to my eye.

[ChemicalHex]

get a MAX or something.

Thats the whole point. They shouldn't HAVE to.

[infinite loop]

Ahh yes, you should see the JackWhore's flail about in thier complete impotence as a quasar walks into the room and starts zapping them all.


Brings a tear to my eye.

But that's when I pull out my deci and waste you :D

[Warborn]

War..ahh...ok last point there. jack is better then everything else BS. Jack no where near has the cababilities of the lasher to suppress NME's that try to come down a hall. And the MCG has some dcent range and a nice and large clip. So the Jack has it's advantage as well do the other weapons.

I wasn't referring to the Jackhammer being better than the other HA weapons, and I have no idea what made you think I was trying to say that. I meant that the Jackhammer and, indeed, all HA weapons are better than all non-HA weapons indoors. They make everything else obsolete. That's what the point of my post was.

[Angel_of_Death]

Thats the whole point. They shouldn't HAVE to.

And there shouldn't be this much bitching about one gun. But there is.

Also, he said that he kept getting killed by JH's. Well, some people have more problems with some things than others (I can't play fighting games for my life, but I have good hand-eye cooardination so I'm good at FPS'), so I suggested an easier route for him. I don't tell everyone to switch to MAX if a JH kills them.

[Warborn]

And there shouldn't be this much bitching about one gun. But there is.

So you think people are voicing their complaints for no good reason? That their gameplay is in fact not made less fun by HA, but that they decide to make noise on the forums about it? That's a pretty peculiar thing to think, and I think your attitude toward issues like this is very counter-productive. Where there is smoke, there is fire. If people were having absolutely no problems with the game, they'd be spending time playing, because they'd have no problems or concerns to post about.

[Angel_of_Death]

Substitute controversy for bitchin. Didn't mean to make it sound like the JH doesn't deserve all this attention, it does, and so do a hell of alot of other things in this game.

[TheN00b]

Jackel, by saying that the KCR uses kinetic energy, which is certainly not high-tech, I'm pointing out that the KCR would hardly require uber-advanced technology. As for your opinion that Lasher=Mini-Chaingun=Jackhammer at close range, I couldn't disagree more. At close range, all it takes is 1-2 Trip-Shots, and you're gone. Surge is icing on the cake.

[shaizan]

...with a NC Jack user and think " OMFG, I'm dead why even try..."


You know I've said that to myself a few times, :(
Getting killed by Jackhammers repeatedly really really annoys me, I have no rational explaination (If anyone does, please tell me), and what's more bizarre is that don't get worked up the same if i keep dying by MCG or Lasher. :confused:

Thing is thought, that trail of thought you said, eventually changes to: "ARRGGGHHH! I'm going to keep trying & trying until I killed at leased one! ONE! Those *�):{L>*^&%$!!!!!1111ONE"

:rolleyes:

I know the feeling. Getting instantly killed repeatedly with a feeling of little to no recourse is no fun at all. In the past I have logged off if I see the NC are coming rather than just get frustrated for the next hour and then log off. Onizuka is right, it's just not the same as if I'm...say gunned down by an MCG or a Lasher. I'm not an advocate of removing HA from the game, but I do think it could be reworked. I've heard and liked the idea of a 'Heavy Gauss Rifle' of some type, and that sounds workable.

However, the Jackhammer fits the NC Mantra, and as such it's likely here to stay. It will still be the unholy king of exceedingly close quarters combat even after the thriple shot ablity reload issue is addressed. I hope it is enough of a fix to help make the thing something I can at least deal with.

[prbountyhunter]

I really don't understand what the big problem with the jackhammer is. We can pretty much only use it effectively when we're indoors. I personaly only use the tripleshot when i'm defending something or killing afk'ers. I see just as many kills with the jackammer, as i do with the minichaingun, and the lasher. I also get owned by them all too.

[KIAsan]

The only problem left with the JH is the delay between single and triple shot. That's going to be fixed. Most of the other complaints deal with surgile warp (which is an entirely different subject). If your one to complain about how it's too overpowered, then how about showing us some fact based arguments. What is the TTK of JH vs MCG vs Lasher? If you think the reload time of the triple shot is too fast, then please explain how fast it is in seconds now, and how slow it should be? For example, how fast is it to reload one barrel? Then multiple by 3 barrels and compare it to current reload rates. These are the kind of facts that the devs look at when they call it balanced. If you can show it's unbalanced by use of objective fact, then you might make some believers out of us. Also, that would go a long way toward convincing the devs to consider any changes.

I am truely curious if anyone has any facts like this supporting the claim that the JH is overpowered.

[Warborn]

I really don't understand what the big problem with the jackhammer is. We can pretty much only use it effectively when we're indoors. I personaly only use the tripleshot when i'm defending something or killing afk'ers. I see just as many kills with the jackammer, as i do with the minichaingun, and the lasher. I also get owned by them all too.

Indoors = bases and towers, the most important places in the game. That's what the big problem is.

[curved]

Just to get the facts straight, it takes 3 shots to kill an agile with the JH, 4 shots on a rexo if every single pellet hits, and 5 shots if you miss with just one pellet. I play NC, and ill be the first to say that killing someone before they have a chance is just like having a one shot kill weapon, which would make it one of a kind in the game.

However unbalanced the thing is at point blank, I think that the fact that it really gets chewed up outdoors balances it a little (unless used by a surgile). Maybe a good idea if you took out the tripple shot would be to tighten the pellet spread. I have the JH in nearly all of my loadouts, and I would be perfectly happy if that was done. As it is, I feel like im cheating when I use the thing in its proper place (though I continue to use it).

[infinite loop]

Just to get the facts straight, it takes 3 shots to kill an agile with the JH, 4 shots on a rexo if every single pellet hits, and 5 shots if you miss with just one pellet.

Actually, it's 2 shots for an agile, and 3 for a rexo, if all pellets hit. I tested this after the rexo buff. But I guarantee you 99% of your JH shots don't land all pellets.

[Veteran]

Not only that, but if your prey is even slightly wounded, it could be an insta-kill.

Heavy Assult may be balanced, but then again it may not be. One thing is for sure, save a measly four certs and you, too, can be master of your local corridor/CC room/spawn room.

[prbountyhunter]

Indoors = bases and towers, the most important places in the game. That's what the big problem is.

Yeah, but we still have to fight our way across the from the tower/ams under a constant stream of bullets or lashes, with only MA, No MCG cover fire, or vanu maxes to jump up on the walls.

[Zatrais]

KCR

Description: The MACE is a large rifle that is quite similiar to the Gauss in concept. It fires a small, tubular projectile that is magnetically accelerated to very high speeds. Rather than having any explosive force, the KCR's rounds rely solely on massive kinetic force to damage targets, hence the name. It is shaped much like the M-16 of today's military, and is the size of an ordinary rifle.

Specs:
RoF: 1 shot per .75 seconds (80 rounds per minute).
CoF: Moderately large while standing, very small when crouched.
Damage: 80
Ammunition Packs: These are the size of a normal packet, and carry 15 rounds, as does the gun itself when equipped from the EQ terminal.
Gun size: As mentioned above, the KCR takes up inventory space equal to all current HA weaponry.


Comments, questions, flames? Bring 'em on.

So you propose giving the NC a hardhitting weapon that needs 2 shots to kill someone in 0.75 (assuming no charge up time, the first shot is instant then the second comes .75 secunds after) seconds at a longer range. Hell if 2 guys hit the same guy hes dead in a second. No thanks, i'll take fighting the jackhammer over a faster fiering BoltDriver.

Why remove HA, nothing is keeping you from using MA inside. You can still be effective at the end of a hallway fiering your cycler up the corridor, or standing on the second floor inside the entrance of a dropship/interlink/etc base. I for one don't want a all MA and SA fight tho, i prefer having the option of using MA, HA or SA as i see fit.

I love the MCG, i love the ahnold feeling of it and you can have it when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.

[Otherick]

I say we take out Tri Shot, i mean why doesnt my lasher have "continued fire" then, I say we take it out so its balanced with the Laher and MCG. My 2 cents