Infantry activities severely limited in this game

[Beerbeer]

Infantry activities are really constrained in this game. There are many reasons for this IMO, including base design and the over abundance of one-shot vehicles, which will naturally overshadow the infantry aspect since they are so easy to obtain and requires just one shot to kill infantry.

I would be naive to think I have the solutions...I don't, but I have some ideas.

First, many of my steam friends who tried and stopped playing, came to this game expecting an FPS game with vehicles. It's not, this is a vehicle game with infantry as the bait.

Now if this is their intention all along, then so be it, they are alienating a lot of "FPS" fans IMO and should be satisfied with the current population as I think most of the hard core people left playing, are vehicle first people, or, like myself, converts to it.

If not, something has to change and here are some ideas that have been floating around:

Now there are two schools of thought when it comes to this:

A. Vehicles should one-shot infantry or
B. Vehicles should not.

I don't care either way, but here are some suggestions:

For those who believe A:
Vehicles have to made rarer. Now there are many ways to achieve this:

(For one-man tanks and esfs only)
1. Put hard timers on these vehicles
2. Raise the resource price to make it that you can only have about one per hour in the best of conditions
3. Make them cost certs to use to achieve the same quantity

For those that don't believe vehicles should one-shot:
1. Lower damage across the board significantly
2. Raise health of these vehicles to compensate
3. Keep current resource costs so they can be spammed as-is

Base design goes without saying and is so poor, I really don't feel the need to even offer it as a suggestion.

We need a better balance. Things favor vehicles too much. Frankly, I am a hardcore infantry player who finds one-shotting infantry just too easy to even bother using my infantry guns. Please, we need a change.

[Defcon I]

I agree with this to a certain level. The launchers are comically underpowered. It takes 4 or 5 good hits to take out even a light tank. Plus they have virtually no splash damage making them useless against infantry as well. I know they are meant for the tanks, so they should either take less time to reload or do more damage. Often a tank im firing on is repaired fully by an engie in the amount of time it takes to reload.

However, the tanks seem to have very little splash damage as well. I am regularly standing in the open with explosions all around me, calmly reloading for the 10 mins it takes, taking no damage. Especially vs Vanu. Their shots are so slow, i have plenty of time to mosey out of range. When it is a dead on hit though, you are right, it is instant death. However this really makes sense, even with a shield that should kill you outright, a giant shot like that.

And the top weapons. HAHA, useless. The default gun is so slow and does such little damage, I don't think I've ever killed anything with it. It just gives me something to do while the tank I'm hitching a ride with gets to the battle late. Or the minigun with 30 rounds that fires for 1 second and has the biggest cone of fire I've ever seen. Another problem. Even though the tanks are so easy to get, people are so scared of losing them, only confidently charging when there are 20 other targets for the enemy. That's what i don't get, the infantry is no match for a tank and people wont go into a base and risk dying, even though the tank costs nothing.

So yea, I'm a bit annoyed by tanks in this game too. The air vehicles are so hard to master, that anyone who is good with them deserves to get kills. I think all of this was done to attempt to balance, but the tanks always win out because there are always more.

Want to have real fun with tanks? Just run people over. Way more entertaining. They never think you'll try it and there is no way to run away lol.

[FreedomShot]

Well a tank would one shot you if it hit even an armored human, so that needs to stay. You do not get vehicles inside bases do you? No that is where the infantry game is at. But I agree it could do with better lay outs. There was something more tactical in PS1 when holding position near the CC that you don't get in ps2.

Vehicals are fine and ps2 is vehicular based outside in the vast counts. Infantry outside on the icy slopes of esamir would be silly and unrealistic.

I say it is fine as it is but needs some work on the bases.

[Ghoest9]

I would like to see some larger dense urban and ruins types areas that off only limited access for vehicles and cannons.

Like a biolab only 10 times larger.

[FuzzyandBlue]

The biggest problem with tanks in this game is there can be just as many tanks as infantry on the ground. Every tank can kill infantry with ease and without a single cert put into it. However if I want to kill tanks I either have to roll HA or a Max, or spend 600 certs on C4.

I have a huge issue with HE rounds. I think they should be replaced with some form of canister shot a short ranged Anti infantry tank weapon. Balance it however you want but a tank should have to put itself at risk to get infantry kills. I am tired of being picked off by tanks from 300 meters away.

I also wish I could damage a tank with my Rifle. I don't expect to kill a tank with 30 rounds from a carbine, but at least being able to damage them would be nice. If anyone played or plays Blacklight Retribution knows about the Hard suits. You can damage them with any gun but it takes hundreds of bullets to kill one, they then have a weak point that you can shoot to do more damage. I wouldn't mind a system like this with the tanks in this game.

Also launches need to be a lot stronger. It should not take 5 to 6 good hits to kill a tank, considering how many of them there are. I would say two shots to the rear or top of the tank, 3 to the sides and four to the front. All of this being without certs.

[Canaris]

You do not get vehicles inside bases do you? No that is where the infantry game is at.

Vehicles are a common sight inside AMP stations and Techplants, heck sneaky folks can still maneuverer tanks into the dome section of biolabs with some crafty aerial work ;)

[Sledgecrushr]

This is a combined arms game. And it is a sandbox environment. If everyone feels comfortable pulling tanks then why not. You would just wnd up with a bunch of esf blowing up the tanks. Then you end up with a bunch of max suits blowing up the esf. I kind of enjoy that huge sense of dread and urgency when the enemy zerg tank column has been spotted.

[ringring]

Don't change the damage of the rockets, leave then as it is. As it is infantry en masse and prepared can counter tanks quite easily. Unprepared , such as when spawning at an AMS is a different story.

Counter via engineering.
Allow engy's to deploy tank traps and allow engy's to deploy minefields. Both completely recognisable as PS1 solutions to setting up defences. Both make defender and also attackers think - surely a good thing.

Secondly (or lastly), nerf tanks. Too many are driving around as 1/2. Nerg the main weapon very hard, especially against other tanks and buff the second gun appropriately. Make it so that only a fool would try to go solo in a MBT.

[maradine]

Bury a few large bases on the next continent.

[Beerbeer]

One-shorting is a cheap mechanic and it will be taken advantage of by any player with the sense to do it. People vehicle camping can ruin a lot of people's fun

If people want to leave in one-man vehicles that can one-shot infantry in the game, then they shouldn't be so easily obtained. Too powerful. Make them rarer.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I feel like a vehicle snack playing as infantry. I wish there were more places that switched the battle to infantry vs infantry.

[Dragonskin]

The only thing I see with having more bases that are infantry only oriented is that those bases can lead to long stalemates and turn into meat grinders which seems to be something SOE doesn't want to happen.

Then you have the issue of people that want to just be in vehicles feel like they are largely useless in infantry centric battles... like Bio Labs already do.

If it was done right it would be interesting to have more infantry oriented bases added. Would have to be in either a large protected structure (Bio Lab style), in a giant building structure or under ground so that Air would be nuetralized too.

[Bags]

I miss the promise of 40% urban 60% open

it's more like

Biolabs, 99% the rest of the game

there's a reason I don't leave a tank. it's just not fun to infantry in this game IMO.

i'm hoping they add an underground base type or something. I don't like biolabs either, really. Too small. needs to be massive infantry only

[Beerbeer]

I feel the same way. I run tanks and esfs all of time because I know I can one shot infantry and there's nothing that limits me from doing it, so I do it.

[Graywolves]

There's Infantry and then there's what farms the infantry.

Yeah it's annoying, at first I enjoyed the challenge but it got pretty boring. Cleaning up infantry from a vehicle isn't very fun either (after you've done it a few times at least).


Sometimes I wonder if making trees more abundant would make it a little better. Most of the game is pretty wide and open with minimal cover and most of the hills are too steep at certain points to climb.

[Beerbeer]

I call it farming because it's so easy.

Easy because I can kill infantry with one shot while in a vehicle without restrictions.

[boogy]

Anyone who thinks infantry vs. vehicles in this game is balanced doesn't give a flying fuck about the future of this game.

[Beerbeer]

I know a lot of people won't agree with me simply because they also do it. But I think it's becoming detrimental to this game.

The core of any good "FPS" game has become something that I look to one shot. And more and more, the only people left to one-shot are newbies who don't know any better yet, or stubbornly naive people who either refuse to play vehicles or enjoy getting one-shot. Either way these folks are becoming rarer and rarer, we are a victim of our own success.

[Suitepee]

It seems most of the fights in PS2 are won with vehicle superiority, although infantry do have to capture the points at the end of the day so you still see infantry being useful, especially heavies vs ground vehicles.

Hopefully they'll make more bases that are infantry-only like the bio labs in the future.

[maradine]

Anyone who thinks infantry vs. vehicles in this game is balanced doesn't give a flying fuck about the future of this game.

False dichotomy; I don't feel that infantry and vehicles need to be balanced. They are not equals on the battlefield in any reasonable narrative, nor should they be treated as such. The perceived problem is that this imbalance is universal and applied everywhere. On this I agree - there should be areas where infantry's mobility and small size make it the optimal choice, or even the only choice.

Urban areas with many firing lines to the ground; underground bases; better spawn room locations; a 1km megatower at the base of a space elevator - take your pick. These are all ways to give more meaning to strapping on the armor and slinging a rifle. Curbing the power of vehicle-class weapons isn't the right approach. That road leads to homogeneity.

[boogy]

repeat post

[boogy]

It seems most of the fights in PS2 are won with vehicle superiority, although infantry do have to capture the points at the end of the day so you still see infantry being useful, especially heavies vs ground vehicles.

Hopefully they'll make more bases that are infantry-only like the bio labs in the future.
__________________

Hopefully they do make those bases. They keep advertising to COD, Battlefield, and FPS fans, and when they finally try the game they get farmed by vehicles and quit.

[Beerbeer]

Hopefully they do make those bases. They keep advertising to COD, Battlefield, and FPS fans, and when they finally try the game they get farmed by vehicles and quit.

I honestly feel the same way. I heard it from a few people expecting that type of "play" to quickly discover it isn't.

This is a vehicle game. If that's their intention, good luck attracting these types of players.

That's why (among other reasons) this game is so empty.

[boogy]

False dichotomy; I don't feel that infantry and vehicles need to be balanced. They are not equals on the battlefield in any reasonable narrative, nor should they be treated as such. The perceived problem is that this imbalance is universal and applied everywhere. On this I agree - there should be areas where infantry's mobility and small size make it the optimal choice, or even the only choice.

Urban areas with many firing lines to the ground; underground bases; better spawn room locations; a 1km megatower at the base of a space elevator - take your pick. These are all ways to give more meaning to strapping on the armor and slinging a rifle. Curbing the power of vehicle-class weapons isn't the right approach. That road leads to homogeneity.


Depends how you interpret what I wrote. Your solution just addressed the imbalance I was talking about. Infantry do not have a playing field that is free from tank or air spam. Vehicles have a huge playing field to tank and air spam. Infantry vs. Vehicle balance is fucked.

[maradine]

This is not what the term "balance" is generally interpreted to mean in the context of an FPS, but I get your point. Both styles of play should be enjoyable and have many opportunities to be expressed.

[Beerbeer]

Well it isn't.

I can one shot anyone pretty much anywhere. Why wouldn't I? It's boring as hell for me and not fun for that newbie expecting a "shooter" game, but eh I have no more pity one-shotting people under br5 (I use to).

[Timealude]

amerish to me makes good use in forcing ground vehicles to go through choke points which allows chances for ambushing, hell the other day hayabusa and a few other groups set up a choke point between quartz ridge and hvar and pretty much stopped a hole tank push simply with using mines old school PS1 style. Infantry has the tools to stop tanks and aircraft. We just need more choke points and ways to catch them off guard.

They did have talks about walking to do like old ruins of buildings and such. That to me would help out alot with this vehicle spam we are seeing. and would also set up alot of traps for the infantry to use.

We have the tools we just need to figure out the tactics to use them. Alot of the areas I have noticed the camping are wide open areas where outpost are that already give vehicles an advantage. When you go down into Seabed or into the Grasslands on Indar there are areas where you will not win unless you are running an armor column or an air squadron. Its all a matter of tactics guys, it will only be a matter of time before people start learning how to deal with a massive tank zerg.

[boogy]

This is not what the term "balance" is generally interpreted to mean in the context of an FPS, but I get your point. Both styles of play should be enjoyable and have many opportunities to be expressed.


Yeah, it isn't. I wrote a couple of huge paragraphs describing what I meant then the back key sent me to the previous page and I lost it all. So I just when with "balance is shit".

It's going to take a long time to see continents and areas that allow for both styles of play. The temporary solution would be to remove splash damage from vehicles weapons. It will allow infantry to survive vehicles better and at the same won't be an anti-vehicle buff.

[Helwyr]

[...]I don't feel that infantry and vehicles need to be balanced. They are not equals on the battlefield in any reasonable narrative, nor should they be treated as such. The perceived problem is that this imbalance is universal and applied everywhere. On this I agree - there should be areas where infantry's mobility and small size make it the optimal choice, or even the only choice.


Infantry don't need to balanced with vehicles in the sense that all other things being equal 1vs1 an Infantry guy has a 50% chance of beating a MBT/ESF in a head to head fight. However, they do need to be balanced in other ways, and current resource costs and timers are definitely inadequate.

I believe Infantry should benefit from a low battlefield profile, in that they're hard for vehicles to detect and target in the first place. This means way more cover on maps (especially overhead cover), enclosed buildings, removal of Infantry from Vehicle Radar and showing up via IR/thermal optics on vehicles.

amerish to me makes good use in forcing ground vehicles to go through choke points which allows chances for ambushing, hell the other day hayabusa and a few other groups set up a choke point between quartz ridge and hvar and pretty much stopped a hole tank push simply with using mines old school PS1 style. Infantry has the tools to stop tanks and aircraft. We just need more choke points and ways to catch them off guard. [...]

Infantry has the tools to stop tanks given appropriate terrain and cover, but not aircraft. It's Air which dominates Amerish precisely because ground vehicles are hindered by the terrain while Air Vehicles only benefit from it using mountains for cover and ambush. Like ground vehicles Infantry are hindered by the Amerish terrain and lack much in the way of overhead cover to protect them from aircraft, nevermind the weak state of AA.

[Beerbeer]

Vehicles that can one shot, without restrictions on how often you can obtain them is just ridiculous IMO. I tried to be nice about, but it's stupid. Tanks, esfs, one man vehicles that can lay waste to hordes of infantry is the reason you don't see many infantry surviving very long, anywhere outside of biolabs.

Nerf their damage or nerf the crap out of how often they are obtained.

[boogy]

I believe Infantry should benefit from a low battlefield profile, in that they're hard for vehicles to detect and target in the first place. This means way more cover on maps (especially overhead cover), enclosed buildings, removal of Infantry from Vehicle Radar and showing up via IR/thermal optics on vehicles.



I agree x10. I was hiding between a rock and building at night the other day, no one around, and I was sniped by a rocket pod. Things like that make me rage quit, jump on the forums and rant. Infantry should be hard to hit from air. It doens't make sense you can be sniped by air, or killed by splash damage when taking cover behind a doorway.

[Rivenshield]

Bring back the panoply of toys CE's had in PS1 -- all-purpose mines you could scatter around like popcorn, Spitfires, motion detectors -- and the tank spam would run into some serious attrition.

[Beerbeer]

Regardless of what happens, I think the damage has been done. They had one chance to grab these players, I doubt they're coming back.

[Rivenshield]

Regardless if what happens, I think the damage has been done. They had one chance to grab these players, I doubt they're coming back.

I think the devs realize that.

I don't think the brass at SOE has a fucking clue.

Smedley is a bullshit artist.

At any rate we have to deal with things as we find them. A de facto re-launch at the beginning of next summer could well do the trick. As it is, they're planning on doing it in February. I think that's too soon, all over again.

We'll see.

[Beerbeer]

Everyone left playing is a vehicle addict, so damn use to being able to one shot infantry at will. The longer they wait, the worse it will be.

It will be painful, but for them to grow and attract more traditional "BF" or CoD type players, the weening must start now as every new player rolling into this crap now will probably tuck tail and run the minute they die and get stuck respawning in one of their crappy bases to a hail of shells and rocket pods and think to themselves, this is lame.

[Beerbeer]

Anyways, I tell my friends now, this is a vehicle game not an FPS game. It's not even a combined arms game because I can one-shot any infantry and who wants to get one-shotted as infantry by a tank, while trying to launch a rocket at an esf? Or visa-versa. It's really pathetic.

There's no infantry action that's worth mentioning, IMO. I see infantry running around and I shake my head; they have no idea.

[boogy]

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aeIqc2D9RC8

Pretty much sums it up. If it's not this it's getting farmed someway else. The worst thing is when you finally get a good infantry battle going on only to have air or a gang of tanks roll in.

[AThreatToYou]

Did not read thread, but I agree to a point.

I would certainly agree with a few solutions:
- HE tank rounds be the only rounds that can one-shot infantry without a direct hit
- HEAT must do a direct-hit to kill infantry, much reduced AOE.
- AP rounds must do a direct-hit to kill infantry, pretty much exactly as it is now
Heavy Assaults with active shield won't be 1-shot by HE or HEAT.

- Buff MAX units. They are too weak.
- MAX AV weapons do too little damage and are realistically a non-threat to a tank unless they have its rear.
- MAX AI weapons do enough damage, but their range is too short. I think a reasonable solution would be to allow certifications into zooming functions as well as accuracy increases at the cost of... other things. What other things? Dunno.
- The weakness of MAX units contributes to VehicleSide due to MAX units being the primary counter to vehicles and aircraft in PlanetSide 1. Weakness of MAX anti-infantry weapons makes this even worse, because now MAX units are threatened by every single grunt out there.
- Empire-specific MAX abilities would contribute greatly to the prevalence of MAX units, as well as more unique empire-specific MAX weapons.
-- Pounder-MAX used to be a freaking nightmare to anything it could hit.
-- Scat-MAX.. well, we all know what the Scat-MAX could do.
-- Starfire MAX was excellent at anti-air due to its ability to jump and maintain lock-on.

- HA anti-vehicle weapons have too many counter-measures, but at the same time, I'll argue that they do too much damage. Too much risk-reward.
-- We seriously need the Lancer back. I'm not VS, we need the Lancer back.
-- The Striker gave the average HA a decent counter to any vehicle, whether it be air, ground, or a MAX unit. I really think it should come back as well.
-- The Phoenix might need a re-work.
-- The current stock HA weapon should have been for the NC.

-- Skyguard. Fuck the lightning with a skyguard turret. We actually need the Skyguard buggy with that really scary flak cannon back, I beg of you.


..

On the vehicle side of things, we have a few problems with ESF and Sunderers being able to do too many things whilst all being a Sunderer. We can't literally impose limits on ESF units because of the warpgate foothold system, but as a plus, right now every continent is locked to itself.

-- ESF secondary equipments should require a tech plant owned by your faction on that continent (including afterburner fuel, A2A missiles, A2G rockets).
-- Vehicles should sacrifice something for not having an active tech plant (or possibly amp station) on that continent, even when spawning in the warpgate. I believe cutting off the "Utility" equipment slot from all vehicles unless your faction owns a tech plant might be a good start.
-- Maybe we could go further? If your faction does not own a Bio Lab, then your vehicles may not have something equipped in the "Utility" slot. If your faction doesn't own an Amp Station, then there will be no "Performance" equipments available. If your faction doesn't own a Tech Plant, then no "Defense" equipments may be deployed.
-- Perhaps a linear system? Each facility owned unlocks one of any slot ("Defense", "Performance", "Utility").

[boogy]

^
All that is great and most may work for fine tuning the balance of direct confrontation between the two. However this game needs a systemic change in the way infantry interacts with vehicles. There drastically needs to be more areas that separate the two, or gameplay devices that causes such.

[AThreatToYou]

^
All that is great and most may work for fine tuning the balance of direct confrontation between the two. However this game needs a systemic change in the way infantry interacts with vehicles. There drastically needs to be more areas that separate the two, or gameplay devices that causes such.

As it is, the only facility type that has a direct relationship between vehicles and infantry throughout the entire battle is the Tech Plant, and basically every outpost. This is done through the vehicle shields.

My idea? Modify a lot of the bases to be more fortress-like, and include more vehicle shields that are destructible via generator. This idea includes outposts as well as facilities.

That's the simple solution, of course. The more complex solution is to have some bases be completely underground or completely walled-in, a la PlanetSide 1.

[boogy]

The more complex solution is to have some bases be completely underground or completely walled-in, a la PlanetSide 1.

I used to not understand why you PS1 vets were so adament about walls and defensible bases. Now I know the importance of it. To allow for good infantry combat! I also don't think it should be just bases or facilites. There should be whole acres of land that are walled and guarded by turrets to keep air and tanks out. Inside all you can spawn are Flashes and Sunderers and perhaps Lightings.

[Beerbeer]

You guys are doing the see-saw, which is worse, psychologically IMO. Nerf the quantity and accessibility IMO, by a huge margin on these one man beasts. But at this point I don't care.

If that's the case:

1. We need one infantry anti-vehicle weapon that works effectively against air and ground. Ps1 got this one right; this setup is a joke. Or, allow us to carry different types of ammo. Also, the total quantity of damage against against vehicles in terms of ammo carried should be upped.
2. This weapon should be allowed by all infantry classes, regardless of class. People play HA not because they necessarily want to, but they feel like they have to in a lot if cases because of the incessant vehicle spam.
3. Get rid of all HE guns, period. No use for them other than to farm infantry and as long as they are in, people will always abuse them and make life miserable for infantry (like I do).
4. No splash damage to infantry at all, from any one-man vehicle. Infantry can't splash vehicles, visa-versa since there are no restrictions on vehicle accessibility.
5. Allow small arms damage to tanks.
6. Vehicle damage against other vehicles unchanged.

These changes may sound harsh, but considering how easy it is to repeatedly get these vehicles, it's not so bad as they can still get anywhere faster than infantry to project their power.

Actually the best solution is to make tanks true two man vehicles IMO. The driver just drives, and nerf pod damage against infantry a buck ton. If you want to kill infantry, aim with your primary gun.

[Mordelicius]

The problem with the Tank vs. Infantry dynamic is tanks are cheap to acquire.

There is an obvious need for an equalizer. Anti-tank rocket launchers aren't enough since not all units are equipped with it.

Suggestion:

- Tank-Jamming/EMP Infantry Rifle.
- Free default for every infantry except for heavy assault.
- Aim and fire a sticky device into the tank (must hit)
- Disables tank from firing for 20 seconds (but can still move)
- Driver gets a message that tank is getting jammed by a bug.
- 5 minute cooldown for the rifle.
- Sidegrade/variant: Disables tank movement for 20 seconds instead (but can still fire)
- Sidegrade/variant: Messes up targetting and slows movement for 20 seconds instead.
- Engineers can remove the bug (much like stabilizing generators).
- 50% chance the bug will explode and kill the Engineer.
- Engineer can cert to lower the chance down as low as 30%

[Nolerhn]

There was an interview of Higby I saw a while back, and actually I think Hamma was the interviewer. Hamma had asked something about making resources more tangible, something that you would really want to fight for. From my recollection, Higby got kind of defensive, but he seemed to say something about the dev team talking about vehicles being treated more like a super upgrade, by making them cost close to the resource cap, thus making you play as infantry the majority of your playtime, but finally decided that tank/air/transport was a legitimate playstyle just like hoofing it as infantry and didn't want to limit player's options too much.

That's a potential solution to me (treating vehicles as an upgrade). I've only played the game, maybe 15 hours total, but one thing I did notice was the raw number of vehicles in a battlefield/base at any give time. Unless it was a biolab, it seemed like there was ALWAYS more vehicles than infantry, unless you're pinned in a spawnroom.

Infantry appeals to me (I found a hidden love with Light Assault), while I don't think infantry shouldn't FEAR vehicles, I don't think they should (seemingly) always outnumber infantry. I get it's a combined arms game, and I do think vehicles should definately have an edge against infantry, the problem in my honest opinion is that vehicles are almost too accessible.

For the power that vehicles give, I found it strange that with no certs into any vehicle whatsoever, that I was able to pull a tank or mosquito/liberator as soon as my timer was up, WITH NO certs or upgrades. It just seems off to me.

[Beerbeer]

Higby ensured that by not limiting playstyles-with some of those playstyles able to one-shot another playstyle with impunity--that one playstyle (the biggest one) will never flourish in this game.

[boogy]

Logged off early again. Can't stand it anymore. Seems like it's getting worse and worse now that this game has discouraged all the infantry people away and has attracted the vehicle fans. I'm even getting killed by my own air, can't even shoot the enemy without some greedy lib bomber nearly killing me.

[Bocheezu]

Biolabs are the last bastion of what I consider Planetside, and they're only equivalent to the first floor of a PS1 base. Killing the shield gen in a biolab is like taking over a PS1 front lobby.

[BobTheSpy]

I registered just to respond to the people in this thread. Am I the only one who thinks PS2 is fine? I just started about a week ago, and I'm having a blast! And I almost NEVER get in vehicles of any sort - all I ever drive are sunderers. The vast majority of the battles I get into are infantry battles, and yes, vehicles do influence battles, but they're not THAT annoying. Maybe it's just the server I'm playing on, but I feel the vast majority of the people playing are infantry.

[boogy]

I registered just to respond to the people in this thread. Am I the only one who thinks PS2 is fine? I just started about a week ago, and I'm having a blast! And I almost NEVER get in vehicles of any sort - all I ever drive are sunderers. The vast majority of the battles I get into are infantry battles, and yes, vehicles do influence battles, but they're not THAT annoying. Maybe it's just the server I'm playing on, but I feel the vast majority of the people playing are infantry.

Let me ask, do you play Vanu? The Magrider plays a big part of the frustration I have with vehicles. It's enough to deal with just the Magrider being able to farm and snipe infantry to death but pile liberator spam on top is the tipping point for me. I've had plenty fun with this game, mostly in beta during the periods when air was nerfed. I have a big feeling the good magazine reviews this game is getting are from reviewers that played during that time(when air was nerfed silly). I am a fan, I love this game, it's potential, I've done nearly 24 hour straight gaming sessions, but lately, as the pop declines the disparity between infantry fun and vehicles just farming us is becoming too much to where, for the first time today, I played less than 30 mins.

[bpostal]

Single crewed vehicles, to include ESFs and MBTs (Yes, you can carry two people in a MBT but it's rarely done) are much too effective. If they were as effect as they currently are but required three people to man then I wouldn't have a problem.
To have one person in such a vehicle inside a base is unacceptable and detrimental to the game.

[Sturmhardt]

Yeah... Vehicleside... No reason to use your feet.

[Jredge]

You people are nuts. Unsupported tanks and lone wolf planes do not last long. You know what happens to captain i got rocket pods im hot shit? he fires once or twice and gets put down. You know what happens to mr im a MBT hear me let me charge that inf? He gets cornholed by rocket infantry in his rear armor. Planetside has perfected mechanized warfare. You people are just complaining of lopsided server populations allowing temporary dominance in air, tanks and infantry. This game is not served by creating "Infantryside". i mean really all infantry should have rockets? What kind of a stupid suggestion is that.

[Helwyr]

Single crewed vehicles, to include ESFs and MBTs (Yes, you can carry two people in a MBT but it's rarely done) are much too effective. If they were as effect as they currently are but required three people to man then I wouldn't have a problem.

That was also a big mistake on SOE's part. Everyone can use these powerful vehicles and there's not even teamwork required for their operation.

It's all these bad design choices that are stacked upon each other in actual gameplay that makes the problem such a significant one. On the positive side these problems can be fixed, it's just whether the will is there to do so by those who make the decisions at SOE.

[Hmr85]

Single crewed vehicles, to include ESFs and MBTs (Yes, you can carry two people in a MBT but it's rarely done) are much too effective. If they were as effect as they currently are but required three people to man then I wouldn't have a problem.
To have one person in such a vehicle inside a base is unacceptable and detrimental to the game.

QFT, this man hit it dead on.

[Jredge]

It really sounds like you're all bitching about zergs. What really needs to happen is to encourage zergs to confront one another. Mr 1/2 MBT is quite vulnerable to rocket pods and you damn well know it.

[ChaosRanger]

I'd like to see vehicles become more teamwork-oriented. Perhaps switch the gun controls of the driver and gunner, giving the driver access to the smaller caliber machine gun and a target-lasing system (that designates a single target for any one in the vehicle) while the gunner has access to the main gun. This in addition to an increase in vehicle points costs.

[Wahooo]

Both sides of this argument have validity. Allowing anyone to pull any vehicle and be effective without a gunner is a detriment to the game... but not its biggest issue by far.
Encouraging the zerg to actually fight each other is much better. Everyone in their roll.
HOWEVER the general base design and continent layout favors vehicles farming infantry.

[Infernalis]

I feel the same, too much vehicle spam. Even in Battlefield 2 when air vehicles raped everything it wasn't that bad.

Vehicles in Planetside 2 are either too cheap in ressources (or too strong for their price) or doesn't require enough skill to justify their power over infantry.

Also we need a wired-guided missile launcher.

[JesNC]

Had a ton of fun yesterday afternoon and evening going with a balanced squad of my outfit and AF together in a sunderer.

Had 2 Burster MAXes, a couple of heavies and assorted Medics/Engineers and always stayed on the periphery of the zerg. Neither air nor tanks proved much of a threat to us, and at one time in the evening we even stopped a TR force at least twice our size dead at Rashnu.


tl;dr: Bursters eat ESF for breakfast, and MBTs are no threat as long as you coordinate your HA fire/AT mines/C4.

[Mavvvy]

You cant have infantry without tanks and tanks without aircraft. The side that has the best equilibrium between the 3 divisions steamrolls.

[boogy]

You people are nuts. Unsupported tanks and lone wolf planes do not last long. You know what happens to captain i got rocket pods im hot shit? he fires once or twice and gets put down. You know what happens to mr im a MBT hear me let me charge that inf? He gets cornholed by rocket infantry in his rear armor. Planetside has perfected mechanized warfare. You people are just complaining of lopsided server populations allowing temporary dominance in air, tanks and infantry. This game is not served by creating "Infantryside". i mean really all infantry should have rockets? What kind of a stupid suggestion is that.
yeah, a lot of us nuts are fleeing this game too.
Of course vehicles that rush in die. I have a fully equipped Lib and Mossy. I know this. You don't rush into unsupported areas, you move in mass and slowly edge your way in territory after territory. Farming. From playing above you really see how little those poor bastards trying to defend outposts are. They're meaningless and there to be rolled over. Sad really.
You guys who roll in big outfits and boast about tactics and the "correct" way to play probably only play during the 2 hour prime time window where servers are packed. Try coordinating during the remaining 22 hours of the day and see how much luck you have against vehicleside...oh wait, maybe you do and you're the ones roll stomping over the infantry in those off hours.

[boogy]

Both sides of this argument have validity. Allowing anyone to pull any vehicle and be effective without a gunner is a detriment to the game... but not its biggest issue by far.
Encouraging the zerg to actually fight each other is much better. Everyone in their roll.
HOWEVER the general base design and continent layout favors vehicles farming infantry.

Unfortunatley not everyone looks at both sides of the coin. When you do you come up with the conclusion you and a couple others in this thread have. You need base and continent designs that allow for BOTH infantry and Vehicles to have their fun. Right now it grossly favors "mechanized" warfare. Infantry are just punching bags for the vehicles most of the time.

Crewed vehicles are not the solution to this. The worst air offender is the liberator, a crewed vehicle. The only reason ESF's get most of the hate is because tankers don't like them too. ESF's are easy for a couple dual bursters to deal with. It's the relentless Liberator spam, AOE damage, Tank camping, that is the most frustrating.

[Sturmhardt]

They really need to come up with some base designs that do not favor vehicles... It's not really that hard to do if you ask me. The watchtower design alone is so bad I can't even believe they went with it... Holes to shoot in everywhere from every side.

[psijaka]

The dominance of vehicles has pretty much made me give up on HA, and since the November launch I've taken up long range sniping in a big way as a way of avoiding them. Tanks are way too powerful against infantry; no fun at all to be on the receiving end, and I just stay out of their way as much as I can.

In answer to the OP - tanks should get the one shot kill against infantry; would be ridiculous otherwise. I've come around to the idea of MBTs requiring a separate Driver/Gunner, which would help reduce tank spam, or perhaps the main gun should be somewhat less accurate; a bigger cone of fire - tanks should not be able to "snipe" infantry from a distance.

And the HA launchers need a damage buff - seems to take forever to take out a tank. Same applies to anti tank `Phlanx turrets - I don't even bother to repair them now; why risk my neck mending such a weak gun?

[PredatorFour]

Just imagine how different the tank zergs would be if it were like PS 1 ... dedicated driver/gunner teams would halve the spam and help fix the issue on infantry farming. If they did this coupled with a damage buff (as was mentioned above) to infantry AV AND a damage reduction on tank shells/ airchav/lib rocket damage... it would be alot more balanced and infantry players wouldnt get pissed off as much.

[Bags]

dominance of vehicle spam pushed me inside a vehicle; and my kd from 4 to 14.

lol this game. 1 man MBT is far too easy to farm with

[Infernalis]

And the HA launchers need a damage buff - seems to take forever to take out a tank. Same applies to anti tank `Phlanx turrets - I don't even bother to repair them now; why risk my neck mending such a weak gun?

Yeah the rocket from dumbfire rocket launcher need a slight buff in speed. The lock-on missile launcher is scheisse and need a complete overhaul, something like the Javelin from BF3 (need a spotter, then you can lock on from further, it would also increase the usefulness of the top armor cert). And last we need a wire-guided missile launcher, slow travel speed but you can direct your missile where you want (useful against Magriders and Libs camping).

[Figment]

Crewed vehicles are not the solution to this. The worst air offender is the liberator, a crewed vehicle. The only reason ESF's get most of the hate is because tankers don't like them too. ESF's are easy for a couple dual bursters to deal with. It's the relentless Liberator spam, AOE damage, Tank camping, that is the most frustrating.

Disagree.

Crewed vehicles are part of the solution. If Liberators required one crew to operate, like a MBT, you'd see far more of them.

Crewed vehicles reduce natural numerical presence. It's not THE solution, but it's a partial solution as it provides some relieve to the besieged (they can focus on less units) and introduces direct dependency in vehicles with significant power. Besides, crewed vehicles can have more staying power due to balance reasons, so they'd last relatively longer.


Whenever someone says "a couple bursters" to deal with a solo unit is when I have these cringing moments. One (dedicated) AA MAX (or two "half" AA MAXes) should suffice to dispatch an ESF to the land of burning wreckage. ONE. Not two, not three, not four. ONE.





Infantry at the very least need EMP grenades to disable vehicles. HA need a larger "base" of rockets to allow for missing some shots (which is likely), especially for dumb fire launchers. More infantry units should have the option to give up their gun for ranged AV capacity. Defensive positions and base design should improve as well. HE spam toned down (that includes infantry HE spam, like underslung grenades with ammo pack refill combi)


No single solution is a solution in and on itself. It's a large complex combination of changes that would make this game much better for all its players.

[psijaka]

Whenever someone says "a couple bursters" to deal with a solo unit is when I have these cringing moments. One (dedicated) AA MAX (or two "half" AA MAXes) should suffice to dispatch an ESF to the land of burning wreckage. ONE. Not two, not three, not four. ONE.

^ this. As it is, an ESF can get in, unleash the contents of their rocket pods causing utter mayhem, and get out again with barely a scratch on their paintwork. MAX + dual burster is not even a deterrent.

[psijaka]

dominance of vehicle spam pushed me inside a vehicle; and my kd from 4 to 14.

lol this game. 1 man MBT is far too easy to farm with

A sad reflection on the state of vehicle/nfantry balance in this game, isn't it. I probably should do the same, but something inside me says "no", so I've taken up sniping instead and just avoid the tanks the best I can.

[Stanis]

tldr: it is not vehicles, or HE weapons. It is base/game design at fault.

About half my certs are in vehicles.
One thing the game shouldn't do is put limitations on classes that prevent them being viable. I still think resources rather than a timer should be the limiting factor on vehicles.

That said. As a frequent tank driver. I'm starting to get annoyed by mines.
Regardless of what should happen I have had several one hit kills from a mine.

Now realisitcally I know this will have actually been two mines in close proximity and little time to react - but the one explosion kill is now a personal bug bear.

Mines are supposed to be an area deterent. PS1 style CE all the way - 20 mines down, lower damage each. Players needing to clear it for vehicles.


I don't feel invulnerable or overly powerful in my tank.
In fact it usually dies - because I use it to make cover for infantry to advance behind. When the situation arises that infantry can be farmed using HE - the problem is base design and players.
The location is insecure and lost, don't continue to defend it.
The design is appauling, there is no concept of defenders advantage or defence multiplier.

It does not matter if 10 infantry or 10 tanks camp a door - the end result is that door is impassable.
The fact that the players want a big fight. Tehy want to defend and hold out - means the base design is flawed not the HE weapon used to camp a doorwa.

[Figment]

A sad reflection on the state of vehicle/nfantry balance in this game, isn't it. I probably should do the same, but something inside me says "no", so I've taken up sniping instead and just avoid the tanks the best I can.

Same here. :/ Get 5-20 kills in a row in a vehicle, but prefer to LA ambush and go for objectives by running through crossfires. At least if I make it then I get a bit of an impression that skill mattered.

[JesNC]

^ this. As it is, an ESF can get in, unleash the contents of their rocket pods causing utter mayhem, and get out again with barely a scratch on their paintwork. MAX + dual burster is not even a deterrent.

After being delegated to AA duty the past couple of days, I have to disagree.

An ESF trying to attack a position with a dual Burster MAX present will die, period.

Add a second MAX and you can cover the whole Hex while getting Libs down to 50% before they get into effective range.

[Beerbeer]

Bottom line, getting one-shotted by vehicles isn't fun, AT ALL. Ensuring easy access to vehicles that can one shot me takes away any semblance of fun in the playstyle I enjoy the most: infantry.

They are too easily obtained, with no restrictions on usage, especially the one man vehicles; there are just too many of them.

Like Bags, I love playing infantry, but despise vehicles and if you cannot beat them, join them.

However, we are the exception, not the rule. Other infantry players, especially new ones, just quit.

[ShadetheDruid]

tldr: it is not vehicles, or HE weapons. It is base/game design at fault.

About half my certs are in vehicles.
One thing the game shouldn't do is put limitations on classes that prevent them being viable. I still think resources rather than a timer should be the limiting factor on vehicles.

I totally agree with this. Base design/resource system fixes should be the focus.

One thing that irritates me with these conversations is people seem so focused on vehicle spam/zergs that they don't see/care who these changes would affect as a result.

This is especially bad from my point of view because I run a Lightning (with HEAT, not HE). I'm already the flimsiest thing on the field, aside from infantry. AV buffs/crewed vehicles as a way to deal with vehicle spam and HE camping screws me (and everyone else who isn't in a zerg or farming spawns) more than it helps deal with all the MBTs/ESFs/camping etc.

Fix the cause, not the symptoms.

[boogy]

so we can at least agree that we

- need bases, outposts, and facilities that are designed to keep tank and air spam away and make infantry battle viable. Not all areas, but a good healthy portion.
-a means to reduce the number of vehicles pulled, crewed MBT, resource adjustment, etc.

I personally don't think buffing anti-air will do anything but make flying un-fun and pointless. I can see a slight buff, but not anything more. I rather make infantry harder to hit that make air and tank easier to kill..personally.

[Dragonskin]

After being delegated to AA duty the past couple of days, I have to disagree.

An ESF trying to attack a position with a dual Burster MAX present will die, period.

Add a second MAX and you can cover the whole Hex while getting Libs down to 50% before they get into effective range.

I agree with this statement. 1 dual burster MAX will take out ESF that want to just hover and spam rockets usually before the ESF pilot really knows what is happening.

The thing is that you rarely ever... ever.. run into 1v1 situations. If there is 1 burster MAX there are usually more.. the amount depends on the force defending the objective. It's just like the rest of the game... Unless you play off hours on low population servers then you are rarely ever alone. So I wish people would stop with the 1v1 crap.. when does that happen? Dual burster MAXs are extremely effective right now. 2 covering a base can create a no-fly zone. Thing is most of the time I see 4-5.... sometimes 8 or more dual burster MAXs... I don't care how much air you have.. 8 dual burster MAXs will take them out because you can't hit the MAX if you can't render it.. if you can render it then they are locked on you already. Add to that the people with AA rockets and lately air just doesn't last long. I've been on the ground a lot since the last patch.

Anyway, that isn't what the thread was about. We do need more infantry centric objectives. Bio labs are the new meat grinders though... as long as you have people willing to attack then you see factions endlessly defending them now. Bio Labs are the new tech plant farms. That is exactly my worry with adding more infantry centric objectives... they turn into meat grinders. How do you make infantry centric objectives without creating more meat grinders?

[Calisai]

dominance of vehicle spam pushed me inside a vehicle; and my kd from 4 to 14.

lol this game. 1 man MBT is far too easy to farm with

As a dedicated tank driver, you know what annoys me? Everyone can grab a tank and roll around. Want to see a dramatic decrease of tanks... make them dedicated drivers with powerful top guns. If a vehicle is able to one-shot infantry, it should require two people to run it. Have the driver and gunner share the kills, but make it require a dedicated driver already.

That is why PS1 vets hated the BFR so much... A single manned vehicle being able to own everything.... at least if a vehicle required teamwork you could understand being beaten as it was effectively 2v1, etc.

I never understood the 1 man vehicles... It's kinda ridiculous. (And this is from a tanker...) Oh, and having the ability to have everyone and their mother spawn a tank to run to the next base also adds to the spam. There are a lot of tanks running around 1/2 with the default top gun. Why? Cause it's an easy way to get to the next base and easy to farm on the way. If it was just the dedicated skilled tank crews on the road, it wouldn't be nearly as bad.

[Sledgecrushr]

I play a lot of infantry. Sometimes I use an aurcraft and sometimes I roll armor. To me right now the game is good. The one thing I would like is to make it harder to vehicle spawn camp. The current situation really makes this part of the game not fun at all.

[Calisai]

Bio Labs are the new tech plant farms. That is exactly my worry with adding more infantry centric objectives... they turn into meat grinders. How do you make infantry centric objectives without creating more meat grinders?

You make an AMP station that doesn't allow tanks in beyond the walls. It's a very infantry-centric fight prior to the dropping of the vehicle shields.

Have a base like that with a few capturable spawns, but with walls that don't let vehicles in. Just because a base is enclosed in some way, doesn't mean it needs to have infantry choke points that cause a meat grinder.

[AThreatToYou]

I am in support of crewed MBTs, but we still have the Lightning, and it is how I farm most of my infantry. Granted, a single HA who cares to throw rockets at me makes me run away or at least move.

[Beerbeer]

I am in support of crewed MBTs, but we still have the Lightning, and it is how I farm most of my infantry. Granted, a single HA who cares to throw rockets at me makes me run away or at least move.

Get rid of HE guns, on all tanks.

[Rbstr]

The things I would do:
make full-base courtyards a bit harder for vehicles to get into this can/should include an increase of "vehicle immune" travel to and from generators, cps and spawns. BUT they shouldn't be the most direct routes in all cases. Like spawn-to-SCU tunnels aren't a great idea.
Make some base interiors, especially the larger ones, harder to fire into...mostly with towers where you can shoot into the mid levels. Dinky little outposts should remain fairly poor places for defense.

The open field should be dominated by vehicles. They are supposed to be useful and good there. The thing with infantry is to open up more opportunity to avoid vehicles, not make them stronger against them.

[AThreatToYou]

Get rid of HE guns, on all tanks.

HEAT round is still pretty farmy.

[Ruffdog]

I would keep 1 shot infantry kills but only on MBTs and only the non driver can do it.
Take HE away from the lightning.