Higby on Tank Balance

[Hamma]

I didn't see this anywhere. I will ban myself if it is :p

https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/297041794624012289

https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/297042537305210880

https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/297043237586227200

https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/297043733600411650

https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/297044781866041344

https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/297045745343795200

Updated:

https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/297119336211021824

[ShadetheDruid]

I posted this stuff in my random topic about 10 minutes before you did. Yours is better formatted though. :p

[FartingFox]

haven't played much magrider, what is the hover length bonus?

[Rockit]

Some rather dramatic changes. Wow! Will be interesting to see how it pans out in the field.

[GunnyMcDuck]

That Level 4 Lockdown is looking to be a good investment now.
I was worried there for a while after the HE nerf.

Good stuff, can't wait for the patch that contains these updates.

[igster]

Hopefully this is going to be a good change

Good buffs for prowler and vanguard.
Worried the magrider nerf will tip the balance the other way.... every buff/nerf and they seem to pair a buff and a nerf rather than just flat out buff or flat out nerf stuff.

But hope this persuades more tank drivers of all factions to get in their tanks and enjoy epic tank battles.

No matter how hard they nerf the magrider it'll always be the best tank with the best crews!!

[Graywolves]

We'll see how it works out.

[Sir B Smythe]

What the fuck! Magriders are nerfed. Every other MBT gets a boost? Fucking ridiculous!

Can tell who plays NC!

[WSNeo]

haven't played much magrider, what is the hover length bonus?

Whenever you purchase a performance frame for the mag, you can an inherent hover bonus. We can literally glide over lightnings and magriders without a performance frame. Also with some frames engineers can crawl underneath it and repair.

[Whiteagle]

Hopefully this is going to be a good change

Good buffs for prowler and vanguard.
Worried the magrider nerf will tip the balance the other way.... every buff/nerf and they seem to pair a buff and a nerf rather than just flat out buff or flat out nerf stuff.

But hope this persuades more tank drivers of all factions to get in their tanks and enjoy epic tank battles.

No matter how hard they nerf the magrider it'll always be the best tank with the best crews!!
My goodness, a Vanu who isn't all butthurt over a kinda sort of nerf to the Roomba?

...You don't happen to have an odd coloration, do you?

[lazer1982]

see what hapens in due time with it,

[SeraphC]

Didn't I just say it? Every time they alter something they have to go overboard. What's wrong with little tweaks?

[Assist]

haven't played much magrider, what is the hover length bonus?

It's the distance the Magrider hovers off the ground. It's the only reason I spent the certs into that Performance tree. It's also going to DRAMATICALLY change the maneuverability of the Magrider. Something that Higby posted on these forums stating he was not going to do.

I've not been pissed off at any of the changes, but it's really got me PO'd when they state specifically they won't change something and then change the one thing that most effects it. The only thing they could of done worse to the Magrider maneuverability would be to completely remove the Magburner. I'm sure that's coming next, right after he once again states he won't change the maneuverability.


This shouldn't be called balance, that's the last word in the dictionary that should be associated with this patch. This should be titled The Vanu Get Fucked, brought to you by a bunch of bads.

[KaskaMatej]

My biggest concern is 25% damage increase of Prowler's HEAT rounds... That really seems absurdly high, with recent HE cannon nerfs I expect most of the TR will take HEAT for more damage to infantry and armour.

[WSNeo]

My goodness, a Vanu who isn't all butthurt over a kinda sort of nerf to the Roomba?

...You don't happen to have an odd coloration, do you?

I'm not extremely upset either. I'm just sad that we can no longer hover over other tanks. There was really no need to change that gave us a clear advantage over other tanks. If anything it killed VS more than any other faction.

[Whiteagle]

In other words, Assist can drive a tank without running into things, so he wants one that just glides over them...

I'm not extremely upset either. I'm just sad that we can no longer hover over other tanks. There was really no need to change that gave us a clear advantage over other tanks. If anything it killed VS more than any other faction.
Eh, at least you're not raging like this is TEH WORST POSSIBLE THING like Assist up there...

[igster]

My goodness, a Vanu who isn't all butthurt over a kinda sort of nerf to the Roomba?

...You don't happen to have an odd coloration, do you?

No odd colours - just want more fresh meat driving prowlers and vanguards so we can keep giving them a spanking! :D

[Diddlleedee]

So hope the reset cert is in this patch so I can put my magrider Certs into something else after this.
Way too much buff going on there

[Assist]

In other words, Assist can drive a tank without running into things, so he wants one that just glides over them...


Eh, at least you're not raging like this is TEH WORST POSSIBLE THING like Assist up there...

If you have an issue with me specifically you can send me a private message, otherwise keep it on topic.

[Hamma]

What Assist said.

[Whiteagle]

What Assist said.
Hey I wouldn't have bothered to name names if Assist hadn't carried on like he did...

[Hamma]

Either way..

I had no idea that bonus even existed I need to play the other empires more often. That seems like a MASSIVE bonus to the Magrider

[Diddlleedee]

Hey I wouldn't have bothered to name names if Assist hadn't carried on like he did...

Assist has made a good point tho

[Assist]

Either way..

I had no idea that bonus even existed I need to play the other empires more often. That seems like a MASSIVE bonus to the Magrider

It's what makes the Magburner viable. It's what allows the Magriders to go over rough terrain.
Basically it's 700 cert points wasted for every dedicated Mag driver. I'm fairly sure they don't realize what changing the hover height does to the Magrider.

[Rockit]

Whether it works out or not, I like to see the ballsy decisions being made.

[MrBloodworth]

I'm fairly sure they don't realize what changing the hover height does to the Magrider.


I'm quite sure they do.

The problem with the mag IS its maneuverability. No other tank can always point its front ( Armor ) towards a target seemingly regardless of terrain.

Also, 90% of the time I land two shots, the mag shoots away like a bottle rocket ignoring terrain.

Welcome to being closer to what the rest of us have to consider while driving a tank. Even if you are still superior at it.

Now, if they would just fix its ability to poke its gun past shields, we will be good.

[MaxDamage]

Does Prowler need extra HEAT damage? I'm not a srs Prowler driver, but it's always seemed adequate to me.

[Roy Awesome]

Higby dropped a stat bomb on Reddit, in relation to these changes

http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/17n43c/update_02_mbt_changes_via_mhigby/c871z4x

Quick thoughts behind these changes:

Looking purely at performance of tank vs tank the balance is far from ideal. The Prowler makes up for it's vs tank shortcomings quite a bit with infantry farming, but on a tank vs. tank basis it is very weak. We don't really want people to feel like they HAVE to roll vs infantry loadouts with tanks to be useful, but the current state of the prowler makes that seem like the only real useful role for it. These changes (along with the previous HE nerfs) are hopefully going to encourage a lot more tank vs tank combat from each empire.

Picking a random day from last month, the effective K: D of MBTs vs. other MBTs across about 10k tank vs tank fights was:

Magrider: 1.71 Vanguard: 0.87 Prowler: 0.63

There is a lot more that goes into the "usefulness" of tanks, and non-tank based counters that keep this MBT vs. MBT balance from being as severe to the overall game balance as it is to the tank game, but I don't think that anyone is surprised to see the Magrider with such an undisputed advantage in MBT vs MBT. The overall kills per vehicle type are much better balanced, due largely to the Prowler's higher capacity for farming infantry, but again, we want to make sure tanks are tuned around combat with other tanks, not combat with infantry, and large changes were and are warranted to bring them into line.


He continues to reply to questions in that thread, so check it out for more info

[Hamma]

Interesting, that K/D is pretty revealing.

The problem with the mag IS its maneuverability. No other tank can always point its front ( Armor ) towards a target seemingly regardless of terrain.

This is also true.

[MrBloodworth]

Don't get me wrong, I don't "hate" the Magrider, And I am fully aware of its history.

But its maneuverability in THIS incarnation is far removed from any other. Considering its maneuverability, ability to selectively show armor fronts, ZOOMZOOMZOOMGOFAST boost and no drop/driver gunner guns splashy beams that obscure vision for 500 meters along a line....

This is not your daddy's Magrider, and this series of changes to it seem reasonable, unless I suppose, you never step out of a Magrider.

It would be a completely different story if the driver was also not the gunner.

[Dkamanus]

It's what makes the Magburner viable. It's what allows the Magriders to go over rough terrain.
Basically it's 700 cert points wasted for every dedicated Mag driver. I'm fairly sure they don't realize what changing the hover height does to the Magrider.

You mean like, getting into positions where no other tank can get, and get steep angles impossible to the other tanks thanks to the Hover Power? I saw your sniping on TOP of the Broken Arch at an angle that would have dropped ANY other tank. Worst yet, the tanks below needed extra incline in order to be able to shot at you.

Not only that, I've seen magriders climb mountain ranges that are impossible for the other two tanks. He can get into positions no other tanks can. It they could do the same as the magrider, but MUCH more harsly, then I wouldn't say a thing, but in tank combat, position is everything. Vanguard and Prowler drivers must be mindful of their surroundings, even those tiny rocks as well. Now so must the Magrider.

But you still can evade damage much easily then both the prowler and the magrider, while still facing your forward armour with the forward armour buff which almost all magriders get, and be sucessfull. You just won't be able to ignore terrain that much easily compared to before, but it'll still fare better then the other two.

2 nerfs and it is SKY FALLING. One of them slightly. It won't be once single thing that will destroy the tank. Not the magrider at least.

[Hamma]

Being able to perch in areas no other tank could get to or even get an angle was probably the worst out of anything mentioned above. That ability was just to powerful in the ground game.

[MrBloodworth]

And then! If they ever add water!...NVM, what am I thinking Water on this planet kills. :)

[Dkamanus]

And then! If they ever add water!...NVM, what am I thinking Water on this planet kills. :)

Having magriders run over water isn't overpowered. Mostly because rivers are open, and easier to shot at a target over water, since there'll be nothing protecting him. That's the counter to it. Crossing though a bridge, while claustrophobic at times, offers some protection.

Crossing a river without the need for a brigde is a pro and a con.

[MrBloodworth]

I did not say it was overpowered. Besides, I have all thees debates before, 10 years ago.

[Chaff]

.
If they made a sand-paddle-tire sort of tank tread - and they upped-the speed Cert Tree .... perhaps Vanny's & Prowlers could generate enough speed to chase a Mag across the water.

Mags on water in PS1 were cool to behold - even with the difficulty in trying to hold them off or counter them. Usually we'd roll Deli's or Raiders....fun. Good times.

In PS2, with a 3:1 kill ratio vs the Prowler & a 2:1 kiil ratio vs the Vanny, an adjustment to the Mag certainly was warranted. Easy kills will ALWAYS be exploited. I hope they continue to weed them out of the game. "Throwing" tank mines should be removed.
.

[DHoff]

Garbage in, garbage out. Their metric for tank balance is horribly skewed and completely wrong. They shouldn't be using K/D of MBTs vs. each other in this game as a balancing tool. EVERYONE runs HE tanks. HE has a slower bullet and a Magrider can easily dodge it. HE does hardly any damage to tanks, so a Magrider can easily retreat and repair. Almost every Magrider is carrying a Saron, so when a HE Magrider fights a HE Vanguard or Prowler, they will win due to the Saron (unless the Prowler is really close with a Vulcan).

A better metric for determining tank balance would be to compare AP fitted Magriders to AP fitted Prowlers, Lightnings, and Vanguards. I bet you the Magrider is still slightly ahead there too due to the Saron and maneuverability, but I bet it isn't by much. After the patch the Prowler is going to be stupidly bonkers, hell, forget about a Skyguard, just bring a Prowler with siege mode, AP rounds, and a Vulcan and you're golden.

[Ruffdog]

I have never rolled HE for my prowler. It seems wrong to be unable to defend yourself against enemy tanks. AP kills infantry you just don't get blast area.
NC - TR fights will be interesting. You definitely get punished more for missing now. Good.

Now make all tanks withstand more mines and let engies carry more

[DirtyBird]

So with this Magrider change will it stop them getting up top of Vanu Archives?
Or stop them climbing and camping on the hill to the West of Vanu Archives?

[Assist]

The problem with the mag IS its maneuverability. No other tank can always point its front ( Armor ) towards a target seemingly regardless of terrain.


Higby specifically stated he would not be nerfing the maneuverability. EVERY other tank can point it's gun towards what it is shooting at, regardless of terrain. The Magrider has to turn towards it's target in order to fire, the Magrider does not have a separate moving turret like the other tanks. Why do you people keep ignoring that? There's a reason we have the maneuverability on the tank and it's because we don't anywhere close to the maneuverability on the main gun.

So with this Magrider change will it stop them getting up top of Vanu Archives?
Or stop them climbing and camping on the hill to the West of Vanu Archives?

edit: Yes to the first one, no to the second one.

[Dkamanus]

Garbage in, garbage out. Their metric for tank balance is horribly skewed and completely wrong. They shouldn't be using K/D of MBTs vs. each other in this game as a balancing tool. EVERYONE runs HE tanks. HE has a slower bullet and a Magrider can easily dodge it. HE does hardly any damage to tanks, so a Magrider can easily retreat and repair. Almost every Magrider is carrying a Saron, so when a HE Magrider fights a HE Vanguard or Prowler, they will win due to the Saron (unless the Prowler is really close with a Vulcan).

A better metric for determining tank balance would be to compare AP fitted Magriders to AP fitted Prowlers, Lightnings, and Vanguards. I bet you the Magrider is still slightly ahead there too due to the Saron and maneuverability, but I bet it isn't by much. After the patch the Prowler is going to be stupidly bonkers, hell, forget about a Skyguard, just bring a Prowler with siege mode, AP rounds, and a Vulcan and you're golden.

I think they used a tank vs. tank KDR only.

[Mietz]

Great changes

Back to shooting the ground and small clutter instead of enemies i guess :/

Seriously all the buffs to the prowler? the hell?

[Chefkoch]

Wow..i really wonder how the magrider nerf play out. I guess you can´t glider over lightnings and small fences anymore ??

[Hamma]

Where did he say he wouldn't nerf that ability btw?

Also, I said it before a bunch of times. The Magrider was a tank that did not have to abide by tank rules and by it's very definition was overpowered vs other tanks. We have all seen the lines of mags perched atop massive hills and hills where nobody could get to them farming infantry and vehicles untouched.

[Baneblade]

EVERYONE runs HE tanks.

I actually have a petition open asking SOE to refund my Titan HE purchase. I use AP and if I want to kill grunts, I bring a gunner.

[Rothnang]

This is one proposed set of changes that has me seriously disappointed with the guys at SOE.

The Magrider and the Prowler had pretty similar damage potential before, in fact the Prowler has a bit more. If they are buffing the Prowlers damage by 25% that pretty much means that they looked at the real numbers of how much damage the average player was achieving, and found the Prowler lacking.
I really take issue with boosting the damage until the averages even out though, because it means that now the top grade of Prowler players can dip into potential that is far beyond anything the Magrider can ever achieve, even under the control of their top players.

They should have taken steps to change the gameplay in such a way that the damage people achieve within the Prowlers potential becomes more like that of the Magrider, not just increase the total potential to skew the numbers. Gun stabilization and better vehicle physics might have helped, or splitting the Prowlers weapon into two cannons that reload independently, so you don't have to fire the two shots in rapid succession so you don't lose damage because the first barrel isn't reloading while you're aiming the second shot... Those changes would have been MUCH better.



I think HE rounds need to be nerfed big time. Putting a cobalt on top of your tank should give you way more infantry killing power than rocking HE shells, but vehicle machineguns are weaksauce compared to small arms, while HE cleans house like nobody's business. At the very least HE should be atrocious against armor, like AP is against infantry.

[Chefkoch]

Being able to perch in areas no other tank could get to or even get an angle was probably the worst out of anything mentioned above. That ability was just to powerful in the ground game.

Well it was like this in Planetside 1 somehow..Mags allready sniped people there, not to mention the powerfull magmower back then hehe

[Assist]

You mean like, getting into positions where no other tank can get, and get steep angles impossible to the other tanks thanks to the Hover Power? I saw your sniping on TOP of the Broken Arch at an angle that would have dropped ANY other tank. Worst yet, the tanks below needed extra incline in order to be able to shot at you.

Not only that, I've seen magriders climb mountain ranges that are impossible for the other two tanks. He can get into positions no other tanks can. It they could do the same as the magrider, but MUCH more harsly, then I wouldn't say a thing, but in tank combat, position is everything. Vanguard and Prowler drivers must be mindful of their surroundings, even those tiny rocks as well. Now so must the Magrider.

But you still can evade damage much easily then both the prowler and the magrider, while still facing your forward armour with the forward armour buff which almost all magriders get, and be sucessfull. You just won't be able to ignore terrain that much easily compared to before, but it'll still fare better then the other two.

2 nerfs and it is SKY FALLING. One of them slightly. It won't be once single thing that will destroy the tank. Not the magrider at least.

The evade damage statement really makes me cringe. You guys do realize you have similar movement capabilities when it comes to avoiding damage from tanks/rockets? We're the weakest tank, the slowest tank, and now by far the least damaging tank, what is our unique feature? Our maneuverability which has just been shit on. You can turn your tank, and your gun turret, independently of each other. I guess this isn't known ? I guess everyone will continue to completely ignore that fact though, because obviously it's not part of balancing the MBT's.

You specifically mentioned me on top of Broken Arch, which by the way I learned from watching a PROWLER sit up there on my second day of playing PS2 in beta(ty Enclave). You can indeed sit there, just as I was, and can continue to do. You know the real difference between me being up there and you being up there? If you were up there in your Vanguard I could not aim my gun turret high enough vertically to every shoot at you, whereas I regularly am attacked by Vanguard's sitting at Broken Arch. News Flash There's advantages to using terrain height.

The reason the Magrider can climb mountain ranges is due to the Magburner and the strafing power, not the hover height, as I mentioned before in this post and on these forums. The hover height made it possible for the magrider to climb/strafe over dramatic inclines, which in my case usually lead to me flipping over. Your issue is not solved by this nerf, your issue is with the Magburner. I'm sure it will be nerfed soon, considering the amount of horrible players that cry about things that are not broken.

You are right about one thing, the Magrider now faces the same dilemma the other tanks do. Great balancing change. So our unique ability went from being able to hover to being able to strafe. Might as well give all three factions the same tank.

[Mastachief]

Then prowler does not need such an enormous buff WTF are they playing at.

[Assist]

Where did he say he wouldn't nerf that ability btw?

Also, I said it before a bunch of times. The Magrider was a tank that did not have to abide by tank rules and by it's very definition was overpowered vs other tanks. We have all seen the lines of mags perched atop massive hills and hills where nobody could get to them farming infantry and vehicles untouched.

Someone asked me what the VS got as an empire advantage, that tweet was an answer to that question - not a declaration of impending nerfs.

IF we change the Magrider it wouldn't be any sort of change to it's maneuverability at all, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

We are considering some MBT changes though, including potentially

Removing or reducing magrider front armor since Magriders always have their front facing the things they're fighting, so the front armor bonus scales a bit better for them compared to the other two tanks.

Increasing the muzzle velocity for Vanguard cannons, this would help them be more effective at standoff ranges vs the other tanks, especially the Magrider, and it fits with the NC MO.

Prowlers are only performing very, very slightly below magriders in general right now, so we think they're probably alright, but if anything they might get a minor damage increase to AP and HEAT rounds.

We're still playing with these changes internally, so it's not by any means a done deal.
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=881325&postcount=28

From my post a week or so ago, "The Impending Magrider Nerf" or whatever it was. Just read what he wrote there, a week ago, compared to the changes he posted that were coming in the patch? Shit doesn't even add up.

[CaptainTenneal]

Yikes, thats a big prowler buff. I mean, I can't wait to enjoy it while it lasts, but I think the fields of infantry corpses will change their minds. It does need this against armor though.

[DHoff]

I think they used a tank vs. tank KDR only.

Please re-read what I posted, you completely missed the point.

[moosepoop]

im worried that the increased damage from prowler will have no effect on the magrider (since strafe isnt changed) but will let it dominate the vanguard. the vanguard should get 25% armor buff in return.

[ChipMHazard]

I didn't see that Magrider nerf coming, especially after Higby's previous statement. I guess they view it not as a nerf but as a fix to make sure that Magriders don't go where they are not supposed to?
Time will tell if I'll grow to prefer this change over the proposed front armor nerf.

I guess the Vanguard buffs make sense, as they want it to be the best at long range prolonged engagements. The Prowler buffs seem to be focused on making it the best med. range tank: Better ranged capabilities and a rebalancing of the Vulcan to shift it from close range to longer range engagements.
I didn't agree with just buffing the Prowler's damage and velocity when I first heard about it and I still don't think that's what it really needs. I would rather have them implement stabilizers, a centered turret, an ability that doesn't contradict its focus on speed, individually reloading barrels, better MBT traction instead of just upping the damage output.
It also seems like they REALLY want us to use the lock down more, still doesn't change my feelings about it though.

I do wonder why they are so adamant about not redesigning the Prowler.
Is it because they do not see a problem with the overall design?
Is it because they don't have the time to actually change it radically, thus it's easier to just adjust its stats?
Is it because they are unwilling to accept a possible mistake in their design?

Yikes, thats a big prowler buff. I mean, I can't wait to enjoy it while it lasts, but I think the fields of infantry corpses will change their minds. It does need this against armor though.

Shouldn't impact the MBT's overall ability to kill infantry as the damage buff only applies to direct hits, not splash damage.

[ringring]

This is one proposed set of changes that has me seriously disappointed with the guys at SOE.

The Magrider and the Prowler had pretty similar damage potential before, in fact the Prowler has a bit more. If they are buffing the Prowlers damage by 25% that pretty much means that they looked at the real numbers of how much damage the average player was achieving, and found the Prowler lacking.
I really take issue with boosting the damage until the averages even out though, because it means that now the top grade of Prowler players can dip into potential that is far beyond anything the Magrider can ever achieve, even under the control of their top players.

They should have taken steps to change the gameplay in such a way that the damage people achieve within the Prowlers potential becomes more like that of the Magrider, not just increase the total potential to skew the numbers. Gun stabilization and better vehicle physics might have helped, or splitting the Prowlers weapon into two cannons that reload independently, so you don't have to fire the two shots in rapid succession so you don't lose damage because the first barrel isn't reloading while you're aiming the second shot... Those changes would have been MUCH better.



I think HE rounds need to be nerfed big time. Putting a cobalt on top of your tank should give you way more infantry killing power than rocking HE shells, but vehicle machineguns are weaksauce compared to small arms, while HE cleans house like nobody's business. At the very least HE should be atrocious against armor, like AP is against infantry.

Perhaps range comes into it... as a prowler driver my feeling is that magrider had a definite advantage at range but less so close up.

I was quite good at range in ps1 but I haven't got the hang of it in ps2. It's probably the wobbly gun barrel thing the prowler has.

[LoliLoveFart]

Give it two weeks and the cries of "Prowler OP" will ring out from the hills and game update 03 will continue the nerf buff tradition. Maybe it will be the Vanguards turn?

[Hamma]

I'm guessing by maneuverability he didn't mean it's ability to drive over everything, it seems these changes are changing that - not how it actually moves around.

Also the Mag is NOT the slowest tank in the game.. :lol:

This is an instance of one faction trying to make a case it's not a big picture item like Higby has been talking about and provided actual data about.

[Timithos]

My biggest concern is 25% damage increase of Prowler's HEAT rounds... That really seems absurdly high, with recent HE cannon nerfs I expect most of the TR will take HEAT for more damage to infantry and armour.

This concerns me too. That's not a "tweak" buff.

[ChipMHazard]

I'm guessing by maneuverability he didn't mean it's ability to drive over everything, it seems these changes are changing that - not how it actually moves around.

Also the Mag is NOT the slowest tank in the game.. :lol:

This is an instance of one faction trying to make a case it's not a big picture item like Higby has been talking about and provided actual data about.

Aye that would be my guess as well.

Last time I checked its top speed is a tad bit slower than the Vanguard's, thus making it the slowest of the three. I could be wrong if that has changed since last I logged in.

The MBT K/D ratio was certainly interesting.

This concerns me too. That's not a "tweak" buff.

Shouldn't help against infantry, as the splash damage remains the same.

[LoliLoveFart]

Last time I checked its top speed is a tad bit slower than the Vanguard's, thus making it the slowest of the three.

Mag has the slowest top speed magburner not included, Vanguard has the slowest acceleration.

[Saintlycow]

Calling all vanu. It seems we must abbandon our glorious tanks for a while in order to be blessed with the buff ray. Please commence operation Orion immediately

[Mietz]

I'm guessing by maneuverability he didn't mean it's ability to drive over everything, it seems these changes are changing that - not how it actually moves around.

Thats even worse, because the hover height for the mag is a -crucial-, I'll repeat this, CRUCIAL, upgrade for any serious mag pilot.

The turret elevation of the Magrider is so low that shots without the rival combat hover height increase get blocked by the following:

- rock clutter
- tree roots
- bad texture seams
- small railings

The only map its not a problem is Esamir, because its terrain is so smooth.
Fuck Amerish though as a stock Magrider will miss 50% of shots because of ground elevation and clutter.

The elevation of the main mag cannon is essentially its biggest negative (even worse than having a fixed cannon) and certing into rival combat chassis was the only way to somewhat alleviate this problem.
The LVL3 upgrade is just about "perfect height" where its still lower than all the other tanks but perfectly fine and terrain clutter isn't obstructing shots.

Nerfing the hover height is just a no, a resounding NO.

I can deal with slower strafe, worse turn-rate. I can adapt my strategy.
I don't want to do battle with the map itself though.

PS: Before someone flips his shit how I'm just a bitter Vanu.
I main TR and drive Prowlers, if I was generally unconcerned and cynical I would shut the fuck up and take all the buffs that are coming my way.

[nurizeko]

What the fuck! Magriders are nerfed. Every other MBT gets a boost? Fucking ridiculous!

Can tell who plays NC!

I can tell who plays Magrider.

For Prowler all I wanted was round velocity increased and drop decreased, and some barrel stabilization.

But guess we'll see how this pans out.

[Dkamanus]

The evade damage statement really makes me cringe. You guys do realize you have similar movement capabilities when it comes to avoiding damage from tanks/rockets? We're the weakest tank, the slowest tank, and now by far the least damaging tank, what is our unique feature? Our maneuverability which has just been shit on. You can turn your tank, and your gun turret, independently of each other. I guess this isn't known ? I guess everyone will continue to completely ignore that fact though, because obviously it's not part of balancing the MBT's.

You specifically mentioned me on top of Broken Arch, which by the way I learned from watching a PROWLER sit up there on my second day of playing PS2 in beta(ty Enclave). You can indeed sit there, just as I was, and can continue to do. You know the real difference between me being up there and you being up there? If you were up there in your Vanguard I could not aim my gun turret high enough vertically to every shoot at you, whereas I regularly am attacked by Vanguard's sitting at Broken Arch. News Flash There's advantages to using terrain height.

The reason the Magrider can climb mountain ranges is due to the Magburner and the strafing power, not the hover height, as I mentioned before in this post and on these forums. The hover height made it possible for the magrider to climb/strafe over dramatic inclines, which in my case usually lead to me flipping over. Your issue is not solved by this nerf, your issue is with the Magburner. I'm sure it will be nerfed soon, considering the amount of horrible players that cry about things that are not broken.

You are right about one thing, the Magrider now faces the same dilemma the other tanks do. Great balancing change. So our unique ability went from being able to hover to being able to strafe. Might as well give all three factions the same tank.

First of all, traction. Tanks had traction before in Beta, so this isn't even remotely valid anymore. Aonther thing, since the vanguards turret is OVER the tank, in order for me to get the same angle you must, I must drive LOWER in order to actually get an angle, while you don't, since you can stay on a much safer angle.

Magburner isn't the problem. It allowing tanks defy their role is what's the problem is. Just now, I entered on Tawrich and saw a Magrider above the generator room on the Northern base. How can someone say this is manuverability? I was outplayed once by a good magrider driver (and they don't give me much headache) who magburned sideways behind me and got a shot in the back. Never again I've let the happen.

Ow, but the issue is kinda resolved with this. Having your magrider running lower will make the clipping on mountain ranges easier to happen, stucking your magrider on those crevices where all other tanks get stuck. This, by itself, is a big nerf for the magrider and a deserved one. Now people will think twice before moving towards a mountain range and losing the tank for it being stuck, like the rest of the tanks.

Also, thanks to your turret stabilization, you are the only tank capable of firing with pinpoint accuracy while on top speed (50 km/h without any speed buffs), EVEN more on bad terrain. Both the prowler and the Vanguard must slow down or stop in order for the aim to stabilize and then fire. Even if you need to must give your back towards an adversary, on can still strafe and out run any aiming lateraly thanks to the magburner.

Yes, everyone can run on their sides, and most do, but considering you can put the fight on your terms much easily compared to the other two tanks thanks to the manuverability. Its kinda the NC MAX works so well with the charge ability. Getting in or out, your choice.

And even more, thanks to the way the engine works, your tank won't go running down to a hill because it's made of jelly. Its a problem with our, since we don't have good traction, something yours isn't affected. Yes, the physics makes you more suceptible to turn over and blow, but since its the slowests, that's not such a common vision anyway.

So you see, although this doesn't seem to affect too much the magrider, it ends with this joyride which is mountain cross country. You'll start to get stuck in places you weren't before thanks to this loss, and will probably have much more difficulty in reaching some places. This in itself is a huge boon to the other two.

Balance must be a priority and in this case, the Magrider was above it all.

[Hamma]

Thats even worse, because the hover height for the mag is a -crucial-, I'll repeat this, CRUCIAL, upgrade for any serious mag pilot.


Of course it is, it allowed them to do almost whatever they wanted. :lol:

Quick thoughts behind these changes:

Looking purely at performance of tank vs tank the balance is far from ideal. The Prowler makes up for it's vs tank shortcomings quite a bit with infantry farming, but on a tank vs. tank basis it is very weak. We don't really want people to feel like they HAVE to roll vs infantry loadouts with tanks to be useful, but the current state of the prowler makes that seem like the only real useful role for it. These changes (along with the previous HE nerfs) are hopefully going to encourage a lot more tank vs tank combat from each empire.

Picking a random day from last month, the effective K: D of MBTs vs. other MBTs across about 10k tank vs tank fights was:

Magrider: 1.71 Vanguard: 0.87 Prowler: 0.63

There is a lot more that goes into the "usefulness" of tanks, and non-tank based counters that keep this MBT vs. MBT balance from being as severe to the overall game balance as it is to the tank game, but I don't think that anyone is surprised to see the Magrider with such an undisputed advantage in MBT vs MBT. The overall kills per vehicle type are much better balanced, due largely to the Prowler's higher capacity for farming infantry, but again, we want to make sure tanks are tuned around combat with other tanks, not combat with infantry, and large changes were and are warranted to bring them into line.

That above is pretty hard to argue with right now. They have to try and change some things.

[Hamma]

Looks like the complaining paid off :lol:

https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/297119336211021824

Mags can still drive wherever they want.

[Rockit]

Hamma beat me to it. Yeah they might need to hold up on that one. The other 2 empire buffs were pretty substantial

[RobUK]

I feel a certain sense of overdue justice about the changes to the Prowler. The KD stats for tank vs tank are a stark example of what a number of us protested about in the beta forums. We said that there was far too much daylight in the all round performance between the Magrider and the Prowler. Naturally we were flamed to a crisp by the VS who were eager to protect their huge and unfair advantage.

Being able to kill infantry better than other tanks absolutely does not make the Prowler on par with the other MBT's. Most serious tankers don't care about Infantry and are interested in tank battles and vehicle killing potential.

Seeing those statistics really vindicates what we've been saying all along about the Prowler. I'm really pleased that Matt has now looked into the tank balance properly and has made some brave changes.

Hopefully now the TR won't have to drive off at full speed every time they see an enemy tank.

[Mietz]

Of course it is, it allowed them to do almost whatever they wanted. :lol:

If I get my turret elevation back I'm not going to complain.

Make the cannon elevated with every rival combat chassis upgrade without the hover height and I have no qualms.
How is this unfair?

[Stanis]

[EDIT: Highby posted a holdoff. I'll leave this up. ]

Reducing hover might be fair. Removing it sounds like a 100% nerf.

Just before the end of beta they introduced the performance chassis.
They rolled hover height into the performance chassis options.

Before that - EVERY - magrider driver I knew went with the Hover cert.

For the simple reason that all the vaunted maneuverability wasn't worth a damn if you can't actually move.
Hover 2 was about the nice point where every rock, pebble, tree branch and even joins in terrain didn't stop the tank dead.

I can't say I drive the prowler or vanguard.
I do drive the Lightning, a lot.

The tank is crap without hover.
Whether it can go up a 60 degree incline. Or magburn vertically - is a seperate issue. Without hover it didn't work on anything that wasn't a road.

If they want this to work I hope we see a 3rd chassis that puts hover back in - something that we have to buy with certs etc .. which is the real long term point of nerfs and buffs isnt it? Getting us to recert and get the xp for more things.

The last thing to remember is you can only see forwards. You may have 360 degrees of movement in a magrider - but you have a small FoV.

[Dkamanus]

lol, and NC are the Whiners. Guess the true colors of whining are shown.

[Hamma]

I still think we will see at least a minor nerf to it in the end - but I suppose it's good they don't make to many changes at once.

[Ghoest9]

I really dont see these changes making the Vangaurd much better relative to the Magmower.

[LoliLoveFart]

If they DO nerf hover height again, give me the option to raise my maingun to where it was with max hoverheight. As it stands a default magrider spends 90% of its time trying to figure out how to shoot over a slight crest while prowlers and vanguards pummel it from a similar angle.

[Dkamanus]

I really dont see these changes making the Vangaurd much better relative to the Magmower.

It makes our shots travel faster, having the magriders to keep moving as much as possible. And gives US the Saron HRB, since we are the hard hitting faction as well. Enforcer is a strong weapon with a very SLOW bullet. This has been fixed substancially. Added range makes shots hit easier and extra armour makes us close in to a magrider in order to go for the kill.

Good buffs all-around.

[ShadetheDruid]

As it stands a default magrider spends 90% of its time trying to figure out how to shoot over a slight crest while prowlers and vanguards pummel it from a similar angle.

While you spend 90% of the time trying to find a place to shoot from, we're spending 90% of the time being frustrated that we keep sliding all over and have to re-adjust our aim after every shot. Not only that, but we have to stop moving to shoot straight.

You make it sound like strafing to one side of a small rock is so hard. :rolleyes:

[nurizeko]

The evade damage statement really makes me cringe. You guys do realize you have similar movement capabilities when it comes to avoiding damage from tanks/rockets? We're the weakest tank, the slowest tank, and now by far the least damaging tank, what is our unique feature? Our maneuverability which has just been shit on. You can turn your tank, and your gun turret, independently of each other. I guess this isn't known ? I guess everyone will continue to completely ignore that fact though, because obviously it's not part of balancing the MBT's.

You can keep your strongest armour and main gun on a target at all times regardless of what direction you move.

Prowlers and vanguards have to turn to face the direction they want to go, the turret just bounces wildly in transit and recoils just as badly. Now include low shell velocities, high drop and handling on ground I can only describe as 'Tanks On Ice' and it's not hard to see why it feels like taking an old soviet T-72 up against a Challenger 2 with contemporary tricked out upgrades.

MAGRIDERS. ARE. NOT. THE. WEAKEST. TANK.

He even posted the stats proving as much.

But as was said, SKIES FALLING. Some people will always cling to their unsustainable undesirable advantages. This is a game and I personally just want some fair fights.


The Prowler buffs do seem to not quite be hitting the correct mark. The damage increase is pointless, as I said, just needs simple changes to stabilization and the projectiles to make them competitive, and I'm not sure why they are pushing the lockdown. I have no interest in using lockdown, I'm in a tank on a dynamic battlefield, I don;t plan on being in one location long enough to give everyone with some explosives a free kill.

Staying still is staying in the respawn queue.

[Assist]

I still think we will see at least a minor nerf to it in the end - but I suppose it's good they don't make to many changes at once.

I really don't think you guys understand how much of a nerf it would be if they changed the hover height. It's the largest maneuverability change they could possibly make other than completely removing the Magburner.

Also I don't believe those numbers. Does anyone who plays daily truly believe there are that many 1v1 MBT battles in PS2 in a one day? There's no way, I don't know if I've had a single 1v1 MBT fight in PS2 in the past two weeks. I get told every other hour that I've never stepped foot outside of a Magrider. I've explained this elsewhere but those numbers have to be including other parameters, there's no way those statistics are strictly 1v1 MBT.
I also think those numbers are strongly influenced by population numbers, I'd be willing to bet there's nearly twice the amount of Magrider's spawned as Vanguard's and Prowler's; that's always the complaint isn't it? There's too many Magriders. More of one vehicle = higher K/D for that vehicle. You can use almost any vehicle in the game and prove this true, the problem is the Magrider is the only unique vehicle in the game. There's nothing like it, there's nothing else that hovers or is half as flashy as the Magrider. That's why it's played more and why it will always have a higher K/D than the other MBT's.

Also, if you're going to use K/D like this as the example then there should be other considerations made, right? I wonder what the K/D is for the NC AI MAX compared to the TR/VS AI MAX? or does this not extend to that? Perhaps we should look at the K/D of the Trac-5 compared to the VS/NC comparisons? Maybe we should look at the Orion compared to the NC/TR equivalents?

Sorry, but using this style of metrics to balance a game is a HORRIBLE idea unless you plan to make all three factions the same. Which I find interesting, because that's exactly what MLG would want them to do for an even battlefield. But that's another thread for another day.

[nurizeko]

Give it up Assist, you're wrong. Some people learn to accept that fact gracefully.

[capiqu]

From the one that has been killed the most by Magriders, ME, It's about time. Always said Mag and scythe where OP. those stats prove it.

[LoliLoveFart]

Give it up Assist, you're wrong. Some people learn to accept that fact gracefully.

Someone actually defending K/D, well I'll be. First time for everything.

[Assist]

You can keep your strongest armour and main gun on a target at all times regardless of what direction you move.

Prowlers and vanguards have to turn to face the direction they want to go, the turret just bounces wildly in transit and recoils just as badly. Now include low shell velocities, high drop and handling on ground I can only describe as 'Tanks On Ice' and it's not hard to see why it feels like taking an old soviet T-72 up against a Challenger 2 with contemporary tricked out upgrades.

MAGRIDERS. ARE. NOT. THE. WEAKEST. TANK.

He even posted the stats proving as much.

But as was said, SKIES FALLING. Some people will always cling to their unsustainable undesirable advantages. This is a game and I personally just want some fair fights.


The Prowler buffs do seem to not quite be hitting the correct mark. The damage increase is pointless, as I said, just needs simple changes to stabilization and the projectiles to make them competitive, and I'm not sure why they are pushing the lockdown. I have no interest in using lockdown, I'm in a tank on a dynamic battlefield, I don;t plan on being in one location long enough to give everyone with some explosives a free kill.

Staying still is staying in the respawn queue.

I've said exacty what you're saying the other tanks need since my first week of Planetside 2. I've posted about it every thread about Magriders it feels like. The problem with the Prowler and the Vanguard is the turret accuracy. If they made a cert for stabilizing it, it'd make the Vanguard and Prowler much better. The Vanguard also needs the acceleration buff, badly, which I've also posted about before. It needs to not feel like you're trying to get a loaded dumptruck moving, unless they plan to do that for all the tanks. These two changes alone would make the Prowler and Vanguard better balanced, why they don't make them I don't know.

[Assist]

Give it up Assist, you're wrong. Some people learn to accept that fact gracefully.

If I'm wrong then why are they holding back on the Magrider changes?

[ChipMHazard]

Also I don't believe those numbers. Does anyone who plays daily truly believe there are that many 1v1 MBT battles in PS2 in a one day? There's no way, I don't know if I've had a single 1v1 MBT fight in PS2 in the past two weeks.

"Picking a random day from last month, the effective K:D of MBTs vs. other MBTs across about 10k tank vs tank fights was:
Magrider: 1.71 Vanguard: 0.87 Prowler: 0.63"

Doesn't mention 1v1 scenarios. Also I don't see it as being particularly contructive to claim that a developer is posting false information.

[Dkamanus]

I really don't think you guys understand how much of a nerf it would be if they changed the hover height. It's the largest maneuverability change they could possibly make other than completely removing the Magburner.

Also I don't believe those numbers. Does anyone who plays daily truly believe there are that many 1v1 MBT battles in PS2 in a one day? There's no way, I don't know if I've had a single 1v1 MBT fight in PS2 in the past two weeks. I get told every other hour that I've never stepped foot outside of a Magrider. I've explained this elsewhere but those numbers have to be including other parameters, there's no way those statistics are strictly 1v1 MBT.
I also think those numbers are strongly influenced by population numbers, I'd be willing to bet there's nearly twice the amount of Magrider's spawned as Vanguard's and Prowler's; that's always the complaint isn't it? There's too many Magriders. More of one vehicle = higher K/D for that vehicle. You can use almost any vehicle in the game and prove this true, the problem is the Magrider is the only unique vehicle in the game. There's nothing like it, there's nothing else that hovers or is half as flashy as the Magrider. That's why it's played more and why it will always have a higher K/D than the other MBT's.

Also, if you're going to use K/D like this as the example then there should be other considerations made, right? I wonder what the K/D is for the NC AI MAX compared to the TR/VS AI MAX? or does this not extend to that? Perhaps we should look at the K/D of the Trac-5 compared to the VS/NC comparisons? Maybe we should look at the Orion compared to the NC/TR equivalents?

Sorry, but using this style of metrics to balance a game is a HORRIBLE idea unless you plan to make all three factions the same. Which I find interesting, because that's exactly what MLG would want them to do for an even battlefield. But that's another thread for another day.

Magriders are THE most put out MBT on the game. In large attacks you see a fairly amount of them, mostly because they can be used in ways a tank should not. The magrider, even being the slowest (by a small margin), less damaging of the three tanks still has too few cons compared to the Vanguard. We are stuck to predetermined passes, while the magrider isn't. That "manuverability" (more like non-insurmountability) actually affects infantry fights, in places tanks wouldn't be able to go, giving the advantage to one faction in detriment to other two.

It's not a nerf. It's a normalization of function.

[Assist]

"Picking a random day from last month, the effective K:D of MBTs vs. other MBTs across about 10k tank vs tank fights was:
Magrider: 1.71 Vanguard: 0.87 Prowler: 0.63"

Doesn't mention 1v1 scenarios. Also I don't see it as being particularly contructive to claim that a developer is posting false information.

My point is his statistics are not a valid way to judge balance of MBT's? He said Tank vs. Tank fights, if it's not 1v1 then he's not considering population numbers. Which, IMO, heavily favor the VS for the number of MBT's spawned. So those numbers would have no bearing whatsoever on the balance and more to do with the fact that more of them are being spawned.

As I stated above, if you're going to use this metric for balancing then there's quite a few other aspects of the game that have to be changed. It'll get to the point that everything is the same, because whatever is FotM will be nerfed due to it being used more.

Magriders are THE most put out MBT on the game. In large attacks you see a fairly amount of them, mostly because they can be used in ways a tank should not. The magrider, even being the slowest (by a small margin), less damaging of the three tanks still has too few cons compared to the Vanguard. We are stuck to predetermined passes, while the magrider isn't. That "manuverability" (more like non-insurmountability) actually affects infantry fights, in places tanks wouldn't be able to go, giving the advantage to one faction in detriment to other two.

It's not a nerf. It's a normalization of function.
It is a nerf, and it is also the normalization of the MBT's.

[Seafort]

If I'm wrong then why are they holding back on the Magrider changes?

Because the VS bitched and moaned to get their way once again. This is why the NC got nerfed during beta and we still haven't been put back again since that game changing nerf.

[Blynd]

"Picking a random day from last month, the effective K:D of MBTs vs. other MBTs across about 10k tank vs tank fights was:
Magrider: 1.71 Vanguard: 0.87 Prowler: 0.63"

Doesn't mention 1v1 scenarios. Also I don't see it as being particularly contructive to claim that a developer is posting false information.

What it doesn't say is how many of those fights did the mags out number the prowler or vanguard

Remember if there are 10v5 the 10 will win :).

[Assist]

What it doesn't say is how many of those fights did the mags out number the prowler or vanguard

Remember if there are 10v5 the 10 will win :).

Not only will the 10 win, but in the perfectly played fight(by both sides) there would be 8 tanks left on the 10 side. Maybe I'm not explaining this well to people :\

[Dkamanus]

What it doesn't say is how many of those fights did the mags out number the prowler or vanguard

Remember if there are 10v5 the 10 will win :).

Which only contributes, then to the fact that the magrider is still the most used tank compared to the other two. And not necessarily what you say =x

[Assist]

Which only contributes, then to the fact that the magrider is still the most used tank compared to the other two. And not necessarily what you way =x

I've never stated it's not the most used tank, that doesn't make it the best is my point. Lets use a very generalized example to illustrate this. The Heavy Assault is the most used class in the game(i think, no idea really), does that make it overpowered? Do they need to nerf it?
There's a huge list of items you can list this way that do not need to be balanced by this data.

[Blynd]

Which only contributes, then to the fact that the magrider is still the most used tank compared to the other two. And not necessarily what you way =x

But you can't justfy a nerf based on stats that are not taking the number involved in the fights into account. Just cause the prowler or vanu is harder on average players then a mag isn't our fault.

[ChipMHazard]

My point is his statistics are not a valid way to judge balance of MBT's? He said Tank vs. Tank fights, if it's not 1v1 then he's not considering population numbers. Which, IMO, heavily favor the VS for the number of MBT's spawned. So those numbers would have no bearing whatsoever on the balance and more to do with the fact that more of them are being spawned.

As I stated above, if you're going to use this metric for balancing then there's quite a few other aspects of the game that have to be changed. It'll get to the point that everything is the same, because whatever is FotM will be nerfed due to it being used more.

I would agree that balancing the MBTs purely based on their statistics isn't going to work. You may be right that the sample battles have had more Magriders in them than Vanguards or Prowlers. He didn't specify any real information regarding the sample battles. My guess would be that they are simply a mix of all types of MBT engagements, be it an engagement with 10+, 1vs1, 2v1 etc.
I do agree that simply stating the KDR isn't really useful when it comes to making an argument for the buffs, and the no longer existing Magrider nerf. There are simply too many variables in why the Magriders have a better KDR.

I don't believe that they are actually using the KDR as the reasoning behind the changes. Higby probably just wanted to make the imbalance at bit clearer.

What it doesn't say is how many of those fights did the mags out number the prowler or vanguard

Remember if there are 10v5 the 10 will win :).

Indeed.

[Dkamanus]

I've never stated it's not the most used tank, that doesn't make it the best is my point. Lets use a very generalized example to illustrate this. The Heavy Assault is the most used class in the game(i think, no idea really), does that make it overpowered? Do they need to nerf it?
There's a huge list of items you can list this way that do not need to be balanced by this data.

But you can't justfy a nerf based on stats that are not taking the number involved in the fights into account. Just cause the prowler or vanu is harder on average players then a mag isn't our fault.

Hopefully people listen to this then and forget the NC MAX nerf.

But the fact that it does things that no other tank does proves that it is OP. Differently from a mossie or TR infantry weaponry, just as the NC MAX, all fall behind their core function. Manuverability =/= mobility. You can't expect to tell us that the magrider being able to move in places he's isn't supposed to is balanced because of manuverability.

[MercDT]

https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/297051383318863872

I don't anyone has brought this up already, but this is a quite important IMO. I have to say I'm pretty annoyed by the fact that they're considering adding turret stabilization as a cert attachment rather than a standard upgrade across all tanks. This should of been in the game since day one (even before) since the secondary turrets already come with stabilization as a standard.

Besides, this is just going to keep increasing the difference between a standard and certed tank.

[Rothnang]

Yea Higby... sounds great... then we'll have Prowlers with +25% damage AND turret stabilization.

[Shamrock]

TR should be grateful there is little to no water in PS2 or we would be gliding over lakes, rivers etc while still taking pot shots at you.

I cannot for the life of me remember the last time I got a kill on a Prowler that was kitted out with AP, the vast majority are HE/HEAT to spam the hell out of towers/outpost windows for easy infantry kills. And then they bitch when they get out-gunned by an AP Mag. And yea I like my hover ability, I paid 700 certs for it and "shock Horror" its in line with the VS's faction theme of manoeuvrability over armour or speed.

[ChipMHazard]

https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/297051383318863872

I don't anyone has brought this up already, but this is a quite important IMO. I have to say I'm pretty annoyed by the fact that they're considering adding turret stabilization as a cert attachment rather than a standard upgrade across all tanks. This should of been in the game since day one (even before) since the secondary turrets already come with stabilization as a standard.

Besides, this is just going to keep increasing the difference between a standard and certed tank.

Aye. Of course with the added damage buff that combination, without having to cert into it, might become too potent.
Still, I do agree that it's a basic necessity and thus should not be viewed as being optional. Making it into a cert also means that it's going to make other cert options far less viable, when compared to this one.
The silliest thing they could do in this regard is make it a certable option and later, after finding out just how popular it ends up being, change into a default feature.

[Rothnang]

Hey, they still make pilots slot Flares like it's a choice and tanks need to slot their faction abilities...

The way slots are currently used in the game is really borked anyways because there are so many things that are just better than all their alternatives in such a huge way that the slots no longer present a real choice.

[ChipMHazard]

Hehe true enough:D

[igster]

If we are using stats, then what were the ratios from Planetside 1?

The Magrider was by far the best tank in Planetside 1. It could also get to places no other tank could get. I bet the stats for tank on tank k/d in planetside 1 was probably about the same. The magrider was the sniping long range tank... get it close up and it was screwed. (mostly)

In fact in Planetside 1 I'd argue that the magrider was much stronger than it is now since it was the VS's main anti aircraft weapon imo. Due to the prevalence of mags over AA units, the magrider actually feels weaker in PS2 than it was in PS1.

The vanguard and prowler are definitely much better against infantry in PS1 and in PS2.

The NC have by far the best AI Max. Always did have. The TR always had probably the most effective infantry in bases with the striker rockets and also they had the best all round infantry gun.

You dont have to make all tanks completely identical in different colours to achieve balance. As long as the balance isnt too skewed.

Do the k/d stats take into account how many 1/2 tanks are fighting against a 2/2 tank. I also find that magriders invariably are 2/2.. more so than any other factions tank. Prowlers and Vanguards are invariably 1/2 with the odd fully manned tank.
A 1/2 tank has no chance against a 2/2 tank in general. Half the dps = you're dead 1 on 1. Even 2 versus 1 i'd give the 2/2 tank good odds of winning.


I am looking forward to the change just to see if it improves the tank balance. I want more tanks on the battlefield (when we are in the armour phases of fights) If it makes for better fights for both tank drivers I'm all in favour.

The hover power nerf is more of a quality of life fix for the magrider drivers more than anything. The low ride height on the mag just results in getting stuck on ridiculous terrain and constantly jarring clunks of the tank.
Slower Saron I can deal with it - I am a bit confused as to why you make the Vanguard enforcer the same speed that you seem to express was too powerful in Vanu colours.

[Hamma]

Magriders are THE most put out MBT on the game. In large attacks you see a fairly amount of them, mostly because they can be used in ways a tank should not.

This is key right here.

[Figment]

Well it was like this in Planetside 1 somehow..Mags allready sniped people there, not to mention the powerfull magmower back then hehe

You mean the PS1 mag withthe lowest hitpoints, tickle AA/AI driver gun, lowest damage (no instagib on infantry!), minuscule blast radius, but above average rate of fire, high accuracy, high velocity AV/AI/AA gunner weapon (no instagib on infantry!)? That Magrider?

Magmower was luckilly nerfed. @_@

@the poster above me: the Magrider was the only ES tank the Thunderer (with AMP shield especially) could easily handle. Prowler and Vanguard could sustain almost 30-40% more damage, while APC armour was low. Mag want best overall and the current one is way more powerful. The Magrider in ps1 was a good sniper and excellent in hills.

[Baneblade]

I was decimated by a low flying VS squadron earlier today... when did they get an aircraft named Magrider?

[Neutral Calypso]

https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/297051383318863872

I don't anyone has brought this up already, but this is a quite important IMO. I have to say I'm pretty annoyed by the fact that they're considering adding turret stabilization as a cert attachment rather than a standard upgrade across all tanks. This should of been in the game since day one (even before) since the secondary turrets already come with stabilization as a standard.

Besides, this is just going to keep increasing the difference between a standard and certed tank.


If by stabilization you mean the turret facing the same way regardless of how the tank moves, I have noticed that it does that if you go into external view.

Of course, then you lose your crosshairs so that's an issue...

[Assist]

:cry:

If you get beat by a Magrider in close combat 1 on 1 you're going to need a lot more than a Magrider nerf, maybe removing the gun completely from the Magrider so they can only ram you will help.

[BruTaL]

All this crying for nerfs/buffs is silly the whole point of this game is different factions with their own traits.

Magriders:Range - Meant to fight afar not up close.
Prowlers:Siege - Meant to fight in numbers.
Vanguards:Absorb damage - Meant to be aggressive all up in your face.

Devs should give each tank their own cert tree for what their meant to do,it shouldn't be the exact same tank.People will always cry about their factions isn't the best everything.

[LoliLoveFart]

All this crying for nerfs/buffs is silly the whole point of this game is different factions with their own traits.

Magriders:Range - Meant to fight afar not up close.
Prowlers:Siege - Meant to fight in numbers.
Vanguards:Absorb damage - Meant to be aggressive all up in your in face.

Devs should give each tank their own cert tree for what their meant to do,it shouldn't be the exact same tank.People will always cry about their factions isn't the best everything.

B-b-b-b-but the other kids toy has something mine doesn't

[Simo]

Comical to see people completely try to argue away evidence by inventing dream scenarios under which the Magrider isn't the most superior tank by a country mile.

I'm not saying the patch is perfect. But clearly there is not balance. I'd be fine with leaving the Vangaurd and Prowlers the way they are. Just give NC and TR another tank that actually is a main battle tank. But 2/1 and 3/1 just screams zerg me!

[Whiteagle]

Thats even worse, because the hover height for the mag is a -crucial-, I'll repeat this, CRUCIAL, upgrade for any serious mag pilot.

The turret elevation of the Magrider is so low that shots without the rival combat hover height increase get blocked by the following:

- rock clutter
- tree roots
- bad texture seams
- small railings

Ok, THIS, here, is a valid complaint...
Clearly stating that hover height allows you to shoot over obstacles and it's removal HAMPERS your ability to fire on targets is a mechanical issue, your problem with which is easy to understand.

Personally I'm of the camp that GUNNERS should control the Main Cannon, and that the current Secondary Gun mount on the Magrider should be turned into that Cannon.
Then you won't need hover height, because you'll have a top turret gun like the rest of us! IT'S MAGIC!!!

If I'm wrong then why are they holding back on the Magrider changes?
Same reason it took them so long to address the issues between Anti-Air and Air... whiny ass players not wanted their broken shit fixed...

[Mordelicius]

Vanu with 26 wins, NC with 9, TR with 7 on UES.

Magriders with 1.71 K/d, Vanguard, 0.87 k/d and Prowler with 0.63 k/d on tank vs. tank battles.

Rounding that out, that means for every:

500 Mag spawns, there are 1000 Vanguard deaths, and almost 1500 Prowlers.

500 Vanguard spawns, there are 250 Mag deaths.

500 Prowler spawns, there are 167 Mag deaths.

It's not a funny joke that they can't take away any of Vanu's insta-win buttons. Faction imbalance will keep killing this game. All these continent migrations, faction migrations are caused by one faction being ridiculously OP. And they still don't get it.

[Koadster]

Vulcan is useless at range though Ehigby... I would rather an accuracy buff. NC get a pin point accurate no drop missle launcher, VS get the Sauron.. TR get a gun that has more spread then a shotgun.

TR nerfed again... Luckily I didnt buy the Vulcan now. Dont say well our data shows how well it preforms.

Log on with me on Connery and roll as a vulcan gunner for a few hours..

So our faction specific anti inf secondary has piss poor range, our AT secondary has terrible longer range accuracy and now a close range dmg nerf. So your hinting that you dont even want TR to have 2nd gunners? Increase the main gun dmg... so now I have even LESS reason to take a 2nd gunner...


Any love for the lightnings? Ive killed more Vanguards/Magriders with my HEAT lighting then my prowler lol

[Rago]

This is exacly the Point

They Nerfed the Mag so much and now they tell me they nerf it even more ?

You could not even 1 on 1 a 2 man skilled Prowler, as a Skilled Mag Rider in Close Distance, so you basically Forced us to use the Mag from the Distance.

Did you ever had this in Mind ? <- SOE

Whats next ? Removin the Mag Burner :ofn:

[Roy Awesome]

Here is what I said on the topic



Holy crap the rage from this. This nerf did absolutly nothing, and, infact, would actually be a stealth buff.

The hover height was NOT what causes magriders to scale hills better than other tanks. Hover height allows us to not get stuck on chest-high walls. Start whining about the Magrider's ability to hill climb, not it's hover height.

Why did I say it's a stealth buff? Higher hovering Magriders means less people get run over because you hover over infantry. Nice when dealing with friendles, terrible when dealing with enemies (This is why a magburner doesn't actually kill people very well, you hover higher when you magburner).

The actual nerf, reduced projectile velocity for the Suaron, is still going through. That is a nerf that is very needed and you will see practically no VS complaining about (if they do, they don't understand that Saurons are OP)





The changes here did not effect mobility. They made the magrider usable. The magrider bottoms out on stupidly small objects, making piloting the damn thing forward very difficult.

Reverting the nerf not about mobility, it was about preventing situations where the magrider was unable to move completely, forcing the pilot to get out and deconstruct.

In a fight, Magriders don't move too much to dodge projectiles. We find good spots where we don't get stuck, and when you shoot, we tap A or D to not get hit by them.

The hover nerf only effected moving to those locations, and that was NOT the issue. Imagine if, while driving down the road, your Prowler or Vanguard just got stuck on a tiny rock or bottomed out on a minor hill. That's what would happen to the Magrider.

There are some nerfs that would be fair here though. Some options are: Reduce the Magrider's ability to climb hills. Tweak it's reaction time when strafing. Reduce the front armor.

Each of those nerfs would be perfectly fine for a majority of the VS community, as long as they aren't over done. Nerfing the ability for you to hover higher (almost required to actually drive the damn thing) is not something that makes any type of sense.

EDIT: Remember, the Sauron nerf is still going through. That wasn't the source of the whine and it's fine

[psijaka]

So many Vanu tears.....that they've turned the desert green around their Indar warpgate.

SoE have the stats proving that the Magrider outperforms the other MBTs, so it's time to man up and accept the nerf. It's not as if they can't readjust the balance again in future if things don't work out.

[Roy Awesome]

So many Vanu tears.....that they've turned the desert green around their Indar warpgate.

SoE have the stats proving that the Magrider outperforms the other MBTs, so it's time to man up and accept the nerf. It's not as if they can't readjust the balance again in future if things don't work out.

The Sauron is getting nerfed and that is a good thing

The hover height nerf was banning violent videogames and rock music to stop school shootings

[Blynd]

Vanu with 26 wins, NC with 9, TR with 7 on UES.

Magriders with 1.71 K/d, Vanguard, 0.87 k/d and Prowler with 0.63 k/d on tank vs. tank battles.

Rounding that out, that means for every:

500 Mag spawns, there are 1000 Vanguard deaths, and almost 1500 Prowlers.

500 Vanguard spawns, there are 250 Mag deaths.

500 Prowler spawns, there are 167 Mag deaths.

It's not a funny joke that they can't take away any of Vanu's insta-win buttons. Faction imbalance will keep killing this game. All these continent migrations, faction migrations are caused by one faction being ridiculously OP. And they still don't get it.

i love how a single imbalance like the mag makes the whole vs op :D

Yes the mag needs tweeking down but not the hover height so much maybe half the initial proposal. but if all the tr and nc tank drivers are going to roll with just the driver then they deserve to die - the only time i go 1/2 in my mag is daytime and i keep my distance and switch seats.

your figues also are missleading cause the kd doesnot take into acount the empire killed so you are making up stats right there
and as an accountant i can say you can make any stat or any bunch of stats say what ever you want regardless of what they are actually saying becasue there are always contributing factors like esf's that got hits on the tanks , infantry / lightenings etc etc so unless you set up a test with 100 of each tank let the drivers spec them up how they like them no restrictions and have a straight armour only fight and see what happens other then that stats lie.

[ShadetheDruid]

Based on the post above, how about this:

1. Remove Magrider hover bonuses from the chassis upgrades.
2. Make their default hover just high enough so they don't get stuck on shit.*
3. Buff Vanguard/Prowler/Lightning traction, and nerf Magrider "traction" so the ability of tanks to traverse slopes semi-converges on a sane point.

Would this be something that's acceptable to everyone?

*And while we're at it, can we do the same with the Lightning by changing the tracks so it doesn't beach itself in ditches? All they'd need to do is uncover the tracks a bit more at the front and back so the armour doesn't get caught on terrain.

[PredatorFour]

The problem with stats like this is that it is not the be all and end all, flat out telling you how it is. Don't get me wrong it's good to know the data but it isn't the true reflection as to what's going on ingame.

Them K / D figures for example....

- Do they take into account who is generally the most popped/popular faction across all servers ???

- Do they take into account who defends more / or attacks more ?

- Do they take into account who has generally more organised outfits across the servers who roll tanks together ?

- The fact that a crewed mag is more accurate/deadly from range i.e. a sniper tank ?

All these factor's can make a big difference, there's more to these stats than just "nerf magrider! it killed moar enemyz tanks!"

[Mox]

No matter how hard they nerf the magrider it'll always be the best tank with the best crews!!

LOL!

[Gatekeeper]

Based on the post above, how about this:

1. Remove Magrider hover bonuses from the chassis upgrades.
2. Make their default hover just high enough so they don't get stuck on shit.*
3. Buff Vanguard/Prowler/Lightning traction, and nerf Magrider "traction" so the ability of tanks to traverse slopes semi-converges on a sane point.

Would this be something that's acceptable to everyone?

*And while we're at it, can we do the same with the Lightning by changing the tracks so it doesn't beach itself in ditches? All they'd need to do is uncover the tracks a bit more at the front and back so the armour doesn't get caught on terrain.

Please, yes, do this now. I am so sick of my Lightning getting stuck :(

While we're at it, can we add an automatic parking brake to all vehicles so that if you get out of them on a slope they don't roll/slide away from you?

And maybe change the friction code so that vehicles don't just endlessly slide down hills in general? I don't mind if a hill is too steep to climb - but making my tank surf down the whole bloody thing, covering a large chunk of the map before I can regain control, is just demented.

(I once surfed all the way from the hill by Crossroads to the foot of the Crown. That was not a fight I was happy to surf into.)

[zauberkraft]

Haha these changes are amazing !
Start whining fagrider :-D

[Baneblade]

If you get beat by a Magrider in close combat 1 on 1 you're going to need a lot more than a Magrider nerf, maybe removing the gun completely from the Magrider so they can only ram you will help.

Lol, actually, I rarely die to Mags in my Van, I don't put myself in a position that helps them to.

I was making a funny ;)

[ChipMHazard]

All this crying for nerfs/buffs is silly the whole point of this game is different factions with their own traits.

Magriders:Range - Meant to fight afar not up close.
Prowlers:Siege - Meant to fight in numbers.
Vanguards:Absorb damage - Meant to be aggressive all up in your face.

Devs should give each tank their own cert tree for what their meant to do,it shouldn't be the exact same tank.People will always cry about their factions isn't the best everything.

The Prowler is meant to be used in numbers? What? How on earth does that make any sense?

I do agree that every MBT should have a clear and defined "role", besides obviously being focused on tank vs tank combat. While I wouldn't mind seeing a more fleshed out role tree to cert into, this would require there to be more equipable options, I do think that the only MBT that doesn't seem to have a clearly defined role is the Prowler. I still don't know exactly what their idea behind the lock down is, doesn't seem to fit in all that well.

[superseohyun]

The problem with stats like this is that it is not the be all and end all, flat out telling you how it is. Don't get me wrong it's good to know the data but it isn't the true reflection as to what's going on ingame.

Them K / D figures for example....

- Do they take into account who is generally the most popped/popular faction across all servers ???

- Do they take into account who defends more / or attacks more ?

- Do they take into account who has generally more organised outfits across the servers who roll tanks together ?

- The fact that a crewed mag is more accurate/deadly from range i.e. a sniper tank ?

All these factor's can make a big difference, there's more to these stats than just "nerf magrider! it killed moar enemyz tanks!"

exactly. thats why they only did small buff and small nerf, then wait to see how it works out. I mean if you only balance stuff based on that K/D ratio, Mag needs at least 50% hp nerf or something. 1.71: 0.87 : 0.63 is no joke.

i think what contribute to that terrifying K/D ratio is the fact that mag is much superior (but not to the point that their K/D is almost 3 times of prowlers) at range where most tank battle take place, so a lot of TR NC players just give up pulling out tanks to deal with Vanu tank zerg. So its always one-sided battle. Vanu tank zerg will always have not only the best tank, but also the number on their side.

[Figment]

The Prowler is meant to be used in numbers? What? How on earth does that make any sense?

Indeed, it doesn't make sense at all: they all require the same manpower. If the Prowler was to be used in numbers, the Magrider and Vanguard would require more manpower and less units to get the same stats per player.

Since they're all soloable vehicles, sadly, that'd be a rubbish suggestion.

[ShadetheDruid]

..mag is much superior (but not to the point that their K/D is almost 3 times of prowlers) at range where most tank battle take place, so a lot of TR NC players just give up pulling out tanks to deal with Vanu tank zerg. So its always one-sided battle. Vanu tank zerg will always have not only the best tank, but also the number on their side.

This certainly meshes with my experience. If I see a lot of Magriders out in a field, i'm reaching for my lock on launcher, not my AP Vanguard.

[Bunk]

Nooo :( not my vulcan

[Dkamanus]

Lol, actually, I rarely die to Mags in my Van, I don't put myself in a position that helps them to.

I was making a funny ;)

I lost once to a Magrider, and the guy was an excelent driver. I myself ain't a bad driver, but the way he used the mag was supreme and I was totally outplayed. Learned massively from my mistake and since then haven't been destroyed by a Magrider in 1v1 situations.

Thank you magrider fans ^^

To be honest, turret stabilization ins't something the other two factions need. Having the most hard hitting weapons, it cna stay as a vanu exclusive so it can retain its manuverability.

The Prowler is meant to be used in numbers? What? How on earth does that make any sense?

I do agree that every MBT should have a clear and defined "role", besides obviously being focused on tank vs tank combat. While I wouldn't mind seeing a more fleshed out role tree to cert into, this would require there to be more equipable options, I do think that the only MBT that doesn't seem to have a clearly defined role is the Prowler. I still don't know exactly what their idea behind the lock down is, doesn't seem to fit in all that well.

Considering that the TR have the best infantry in the game, units like the Prowler and the TR MAX have lockdowns to support the advance of that infantry. Having established a beachhead, so to speak, having 2~4 Prowlers in lockdown mode are a nightmare to deal with if they have the territory advantage. All those shells hurt a lot.

Once the infantry + some armour has advanced, the LD prowlers unlock and move up. This is an interesting ability, but VERY situational. I would suggest people to cert it but not use it in the same way the Magburner/Vanguard Shield should be used. LD turns the Prowler the best support/suppressive fire tank compared to the other two.

[BruTaL]

The Prowler is meant to be used in numbers? What? How on earth does that make any sense?

I do agree that every MBT should have a clear and defined "role", besides obviously being focused on tank vs tank combat. While I wouldn't mind seeing a more fleshed out role tree to cert into, this would require there to be more equipable options, I do think that the only MBT that doesn't seem to have a clearly defined role is the Prowler. I still don't know exactly what their idea behind the lock down is, doesn't seem to fit in all that well.


Prowlers are siege tanks not tanks that fight in the front lines hence in numbers,"strength in numbers" tr motto right.

[Vasquez]

Funny SOE. The Prowler and Vanguard are fine as they are. The Magrider ist the imbalancing factor here. But as always: "nerfing" gets you a lot screaming kids so they are buffing all the other stuff until the little bit of infantry gameplay is completley gone.

[Hamma]

They are not fine as they are :lol:

Solution: Remove the Magrider!

[Vasquez]

Solution: Remove the Magrider!

Or this!!^ ;)

Anyway. As the majority of the Vets stated pre PS2 launch, it was a failure to make the MBTs avaiable without Certification and in addition they transformed them into one man vehicles. I really miss the old shool infantry zergs ;)

[Rockit]

Just do like The Enclave does. Everybody just hoof it with annihilators and an AMS behind them and lay waste to any ground or air unit they come across. But seriously it's those kind of ops that can cause imbalances for everyone else so they have to be careful about how much they nerf/buff at one time as to accommodate many playstyles. Hell I think even as it is they are making some big stat changes.

[MrBloodworth]

Higby specifically stated he would not be nerfing the maneuverability. EVERY other tank can point it's gun towards what it is shooting at, regardless of terrain. The Magrider has to turn towards it's target in order to fire, the Magrider does not have a separate moving turret like the other tanks. Why do you people keep ignoring that? There's a reason we have the maneuverability on the tank and it's because we don't anywhere close to the maneuverability on the main gun.



edit: Yes to the first one, no to the second one.

Hover height is a mobility feature, it, in effect smooths out terrain. Yes, every tank can point their gun at a target, only the mag does so but always while facing its front towards the target, while also being able to strafe.

In a 1 v 1, the mag will always be able to get behind another tank, and never expose its rear, unlike all other tanks.

Your statement about the the supposed weakness of the front fixed gun is false. Yes, the gun is fixed front, but the combined turning and maneuverability of a mag far outpaces any rotation ability of a turret mounted one. It turns faster, faced its strongest armor, and can outpace all other tanks in terms of getting behind the target.

This is before we even take into account, Terrain effects the aim of the other two tanks more than a mag, and the other two tanks do not leave a visual obstruction in front of any targets after firing.

Yes, thees are all the upsides to the tank, and are its greatest strengths. However, this incarnation of the mag is too good. It needs to be brought down a notch.



As for the statement of everyone running HE rounds. I do not, I use the stock cannons and a Vulcan and racer. I am configured as a tank killer. Mags are the only tanks not playing by the tank game, they are the hardest to hit due to low profile and speed/strafing and need only land one shot to my two ( Prowler ). They can run ( Literal )circles around me while still doing damage, most times to the rear, and they require less skill to pilot due to the fixed cannon ( No keeping track of Gun and body positioning ). They nearly ignore Terrain effects on aim, have no drop to contend with and as other have mentioned can be where no other tank can. They can also runaway with the greatest of ease.

I would ask that you step out of the Magrider and try the other faction tanks.

Higby specifically stated he would not be nerfing the maneuverability.

If someone in a position of decision, who changes that decision due to information and changing data affects you this much. I propose that you have a long hard life ahead of you, filled with disappointment.

[ChipMHazard]

Prowlers are siege tanks not tanks that fight in the front lines hence in numbers,"strength in numbers" tr motto right.

They are what now? Siege tanks? Since when are they "siege tanks"? (You've been playing too much Starcraft if you think that's a proper specification.)
Of course they are front line tanks, they are main battle tanks (or medium depending on whom you ask).

Their motto is “Loyalty until Death, Strength in Unity!”

What exactly is it that makes you think that the Prowler is supposed to be fielded in greater numbers? It's identical cost? It's identical crew complement? If you were actually correct then the Prowler would cost less and only require one person to actually use fully, as in being able to use both the secondary and primary at once. Otherwise there is no possible way that there would ever be fielded more Prowlers than Magriders and Vanguards, barring a significant population imbalance.


Considering that the TR have the best infantry in the game, units like the Prowler and the TR MAX have lockdowns to support the advance of that infantry. Having established a beachhead, so to speak, having 2~4 Prowlers in lockdown mode are a nightmare to deal with if they have the territory advantage. All those shells hurt a lot.

Once the infantry + some armour has advanced, the LD prowlers unlock and move up. This is an interesting ability, but VERY situational. I would suggest people to cert it but not use it in the same way the Magburner/Vanguard Shield should be used. LD turns the Prowler the best support/suppressive fire tank compared to the other two.

Were they made with that specific role in mind? I don't remember anyone claiming that was the role they were supposed to fill: That of infantry support.

"The Prowler makes up for it's vs tank shortcomings quite a bit with infantry farming, but on a tank vs. tank basis it is very weak. We don't really want people to feel like they HAVE to roll vs infantry loadouts with tanks to be useful, but the current state of the prowler makes that seem like the only real useful role for it. These changes (along with the previous HE nerfs) are hopefully going to encourage a lot more tank vs tank combat from each empire."

"[...]due largely to the Prowler's higher capacity for farming infantry, but again, we want to make sure tanks are tuned around combat with other tanks, not combat with infantry, and large changes were and are warranted to bring them into line."


What's important to note here is that while that may be the way the tank is often used, it's not what they had in mind.

I don't see how the Prowler is anymore of a infantry support tank (by design) than either the Vanguard or Magrider, besides of course being more effective at killing enemy infantry (that however seems to have been a side effect and not its role by design). I should also note that infantry support tanks are characterized by their lack of heavy armament, thick armor and thus slower speed, which is irrelevant because of their role and having to stick close to infantry. The Prowler doesn't have the thickest armor, deals the same damage as the Vanguard and it's the fastest tank.

I'm also rather certain that when the TR MAX gets its lockdown ability then we won't be seeing any of them, besides the AA variants, actually use the ability out in the open to provide cover. A stationary MAX is for the most part a dead MAX.
Prowlers using lockdown are also extremely easy targets for anything aerial.

Yes it can be used effectively under the right circumstances and in the right situations, which is also the crux of the matter.
Again I don't get what the devs want the Prowler to do.

[superseohyun]

Prowlers are siege tanks not tanks that fight in the front lines hence in numbers,"strength in numbers" tr motto right.

if prowler is a siege tank then its absolutely horrible game design unless they give TR anther MBT. If they want players from all factions to have fun in tank battle, they cant just give one faction a siege tank and call it a day.

its like give one faction a bomber and the other two factions fighter. Its not fun.

[PeanutMF]

have no drop to contend with

ಠ_ಠ

I like the Magrider (but use the lightning more, I only jump in a Mag when I there will be two people crewing it) however acknowledge that is superior to other tanks (much because of other tank's shortcomings like awful traction and no turret stabilisation).

However this is just wrong, unless you are talking about the Saron (not Sauron btw, we aren't carrying the Dark Lord of Mordor around with us guys); the main cannon on a Magrider has projectile drop, only the Saron does not.

Having tried the (default) Vanguard I loved the extra frontal armour, but the acceleration was complete balls; it's far more crippled than either other faction's acceleration rate, feels like it goes far beyond just being a regular NC disadvantage.

The the lack of turret stabilisation is most noticeable on the Prowler, since it's going much faster most of the time compared to the Vanguard. However both of them need it badly (as well as the lightning), and sliding around is annoying as hell.

If SOE give the tanks a decent amount of turret stabilisation I would be interested to see if the effective/practical DPS of the Prowler jumps dramatically after this 25% damage buff.

[BruTaL]

Typical,games like battlefield has made people think tanks are only meant to battle other tanks.Think for a moment why do you think the prowler as the biggest splash damage and anchor mode?

It's not like the only way to kill other tanks is by using tanks, i can see the vision the devs had with each tank but some gamers just don't see it,they think it's all about just running in there and then dieing and start raging.

Look,up close the magrider would lose to the vanguard with it's armor and shield,it would also lose to the prowler with it's rof and vulcan.The only reason why the magrider has a higher k/d is because it's mostly used at range.Just learn to use your strengths and weaknesses,where's the fun in this game if everything is the same?

We could sit here and argue all day,some people just need to learn.

[PeanutMF]

Typical,games like battlefield has made people think tanks are only meant to battle other tanks.


I agree.

If tanks were made to fight other tanks, then what was the purpose of making them in the first place?

This is probably what makes the Vanguard overall the weakest tank (imo) since it's mediocre at anti-infantry and its anti-tank ability is still bested by the magrider at all ranges except close up.

If you manage to destroy all the opposing armour in the area with a Vanguard you can't support your infantry as well as you could in a Mag or a Prowler.

While with a Prowler destroying the opposing armour in the area might be more difficult, but you will be laughing all the way to the bank with mopping up the infantry afterwards.

And to be frank I'm okay with the Vanguard being rather bad at killing infantry compared to the other tanks, but it needs to be better in other areas.

[BruTaL]

I agree.

If tanks were made to fight other tanks, then what was the purpose of making them in the first place?

This is probably what makes the Vanguard overall the weakest tank (imo) since it's mediocre at anti-infantry and its anti-tank ability is still bested by the magrider at all ranges except close up.

If you manage to destroy all the opposing armour in the area with a Vanguard you can't support your infantry as well as you could in a Mag or a Prowler.

While with a Prowler destroying the opposing armour in the area might be more difficult, but you will be laughing all the way to the bank with mopping up the infantry afterwards.

And to be frank I'm okay with the Vanguard being rather bad at killing infantry compared to the other tanks, but it needs to be better in other areas.

I think the vanguard needs a speed buff.

[PeanutMF]

I think the vanguard needs a speed buff.

The Vanguard already has a top speed greater than the Magrider discounting the Magburner, it just has really bad acceleration.

[raw]

The problem with the mag IS its maneuverability. No other tank can always point its front ( Armor ) towards a target seemingly regardless of terrain.


The magrider can't ignore terrain when aiming, its most affected by terrain of all tanks.

What are these posts supposed to be, an entry into the badpost lottery?

This is probably what makes the Vanguard overall the weakest tank (imo) since it's mediocre at anti-infantry and its anti-tank ability is still bested by the magrider at all ranges except close up.


Yes, this thread seems to be about the monthly bad post lottery. Excsuse me while I look for a thread with substance.

[Fear The Amish]

Of course it is, it allowed them to do almost whatever they wanted. :lol:



That above is pretty hard to argue with right now. They have to try and change some things.

alright i see alot of arguments both back and forth... but i wanna put a few things in perspective....

1.) Speed: the magriders speed is the slowest. now some of you will point out MAGBURNER!! OMG WTF!! yes mag burn is nice but in only a few instance's remember it has no turret so to use magburn to get away you have to point your ASS at the enemy... (lets all think about that for a second...)

2.) Front mounted gun: while yes this is a plus giving the most heavily armor place frontal positioning but let me ask you something have you actually LOOKED at a mag... the sides actually are still in the front because of that crescent shape learn how to kill them and shoot on the side. also this front mounted gun means stuff that Vannies/Prowlers use as cover we are stuck shooting it.

3.) Damage: we have the least damage out of any MBT in the game

4.) Round: our bullets are giant blobs of plasma. what this means is any time we fire a shot its a big giant SHOOT ME! sign.

lets be honest amongst our selves here as veterans and skilled players. Mag's just like any other tank have things they are better at then others. Do they deserve a nerf? i honestly don't know what could be nerfed on them that wouldn't cripple them and make them useless. Do other tanks need a buff? yes i think that the vannie/prowler both need some form of stabilizer.

P.S hamma i mean no disrespect but i honestly have to say i am actually a little disappointed in you because instead of responding to his points you act like a Official forum pubbie. Yes the mag rider can go all over the place but it has nothing to do with hover height. It has everything to do with Magburner + momentum + careful testing of position. This will not effect a magriders ability to get in crazy places. All it will do is make driving them in general a pain in the ass.

[ffffff]

2.) Front mounted gun: while yes this is a plus giving the most heavily armor place frontal positioning but let me ask you something have you actually LOOKED at a mag... the sides actually are still in the front because of that crescent shape learn how to kill them and shoot on the side. also this front mounted gun means stuff that Vannies/Prowlers use as cover we are stuck shooting it

Locational damage is an orientation comparison, not a hitbox check. For the purposes of locational bonuses, if you're facing the opponent you're only going to take frontal damage from him, no matter where he hits you.


To contribute to the argument:
There's always going to be a lot of denial about just how big the utility & reliability that hovering provides is. It's unfortunately huge, to the point that if MBTs were about equally potent, the Magrider would seem anemically armed (or it's opponents way over-gunned) - which makes a diplomatic solution to nerfs/buffs kind of hard. This is the real problem with asymmetry, it requires some tough decision-making and you to evaluate some not-so-easily quantified stuff, like the ability to traverse all terrain.

Right now, the Magrider is just an almost-symmetric MBT in the weapon department with a massive utility ability that the other two MBTs just don't even remotely have. That's as close to having it all as you can get.

Quite frankly I was expecting to see the less-hover + dropless 300m/s Enforcer approach and just to see a shift to Magriders using Rival Chassis and still coming out on top more than anyone else. Welp.

The good news at least is that MBT combat is subject to a lot of equalizers (okay, mostly the Annihilator) so it doesn't really throw the game off too bad that objectively-better MBTs exist.

[Rago]

They are not fine as they are :lol:

Solution: Remove the Magrider!

:D:p
-If you see this Guy in a Galaxy, be sure to shoot it Down:lol:

The MAG has it´s cons , you may not believe it but thats how it is, its made for fight from the Distance, how soe made it ATM,thats the Situation.


Its not that Easy to hit with the Saron, especially when the Tank is moving, its good on mid distance ,when you play with low sense its okay,..

When i get into close Combat with a TR Prowler or a NC Vanguard, most of the Time we do not survive.

From the Distance i have the movement of it wich makes the win, often.

Create a VS char try it yourself !(To be honest i suggest everybody to play different factions, just to get the better eye on it)
ImHo Every faction is not bad you just have to get used to it.I say.


Me myself hate Gravity or changes on "the feeling" of Weapons, because im play with feeling.And Changing the Weapons make me to learn that weapon again, just to mention it.

To be honest, im happy that this change has a kind of "Delay".
And its not the Vs Kids Yelling.

@fffff

I often see Skilled TR Prowlers shooting my Back, which makes the Mag die Fast, even poiniting with the Front Gun, on or to them.(talking about mid distance and close distance, which forces me to use the Mag most of the time, if possible , from the Distance)

[ChipMHazard]

Typical,games like battlefield has made people think tanks are only meant to battle other tanks.Think for a moment why do you think the prowler as the biggest splash damage and anchor mode?

It's not like the only way to kill other tanks is by using tanks, i can see the vision the devs had with each tank but some gamers just don't see it,they think it's all about just running in there and then dieing and start raging.

Look,up close the magrider would lose to the vanguard with it's armor and shield,it would also lose to the prowler with it's rof and vulcan.The only reason why the magrider has a higher k/d is because it's mostly used at range.Just learn to use your strengths and weaknesses,where's the fun in this game if everything is the same?

We could sit here and argue all day,some people just need to learn.

Uh-huh. Statements like the ones that Higby has made is what makes be think that the MBTs are meant to primarily fight each other, or rather their primary role is to defeat enemy armor, that does not mean that they will not fulfill, or otherwise support in, other roles like that of anti-infantry. Also the HEAT rounds have the same splash area, the Vanguard's AP and both the Magrider and Prowler have the same HE splash. They all deal the same indirect damage. So you're basing your argument on a faulty basis.

Please do explain how us "gamers" are unable to understand the primary goal of the MBT, which is to deal with enemy armor? What exactly does primary role have have to do with "but some gamers just don't see it,they think it's all about just running in there and then dieing and start raging." Since it's primarily longe range engagements that people are complaining about, when it comes to balance between the three MBTS. Seems like just a silly straw man argument.

Please don't start using the old and tired "learn to play" arugment. It is bs in this argument since all MBTs HAVE to be able to compete against each other in longer range engagements, unless they radically change the way the tanks work (for example revamp the Prowler for nothing but close combat). As evident by Higby's statements.

Yes, some poeple need to learn the MBT's primary role. Again please do stop it with the "learn to play" arguments.

I agree.

If tanks were made to fight other tanks, then what was the purpose of making them in the first place?

This is probably what makes the Vanguard overall the weakest tank (imo) since it's mediocre at anti-infantry and its anti-tank ability is still bested by the magrider at all ranges except close up.

If you manage to destroy all the opposing armour in the area with a Vanguard you can't support your infantry as well as you could in a Mag or a Prowler.

While with a Prowler destroying the opposing armour in the area might be more difficult, but you will be laughing all the way to the bank with mopping up the infantry afterwards.

And to be frank I'm okay with the Vanguard being rather bad at killing infantry compared to the other tanks, but it needs to be better in other areas.

What a silly question? They were of course made to be the backbone in any groundbased engagement. That does not mean that, that is all they are good for. Again, this is an misinterpretation.

All MBTs are more than capable of dealing with infantry. The only real reason as to why the Prowler is better at killing infantry is because of its dual barrels. When other MBTs fire at infantry it's just overkill, when Prowlers fire it's less overkill times 2, as in you can apply the max damage across a larger area faster than any other MBT. Why do you think that they want to change The Vanguard's long range capabilities against the Magrider?

Not as well as the Prowler perhaps, but the Magrider and Vanguard are basicly equal in this area. The Saron certainly make it far easier to snipe infantry, good thing it's getting a nerf then.

Which is not the point of the Prowler.
"[...]due largely to the Prowler's higher capacity for farming infantry, but again, we want to make sure tanks are tuned around combat with other tanks, not combat with infantry, and large changes were and are warranted to bring them into line."

It's not bad at killing infantry.

[Mietz]

I like how some people think that the Magrider is this penultimate tank that is godlike on the battlefield and if you ever drove a Mag you wouldn't ever want to go back to any other tank.

My counter argument: Me

I played Vanu for all of beta and two weeks of launch with a heavy emphasis on the Magrider. My friends started playing TR so I switched, I now main TR which has double BR to my Vanu toon and I still focus on tanking.

I love the Prowler and I don't feel like going back to the Magrider.

The Prowler is a great tank and I love driving it.

If forced to chose I would stick with the Prowler and never get into the Magrider ever again.

[superseohyun]

I like how some people think that the Magrider is this penultimate tank that is godlike on the battlefield and if you ever drove a Mag you wouldn't ever want to go back to any other tank.

My counter argument: Me

I played Vanu for all of beta and two weeks of launch with a heavy emphasis on the Magrider. My friends started playing TR so I switched, I now main TR which has double BR to my Vanu toon and I still focus on tanking.

I love the Prowler and I don't feel like going back to the Magrider.

The Prowler is a great tank and I love driving it.

If forced to chose I would stick with the Prowler and never get into the Magrider ever again.

really？ your argument is your personal experience?

anyway, prowler indeed is a great tank.like higby said, prowler only perform slightly under MAG when you take anti-infantry into consideration. It just sucks as a MBT.

i think the vanguard need the most buff. It cant deal with MAG where most tank fight take place, and cant deal with infantry nearly as good as a prowler.

[Mietz]

really？ your argument is your personal experience?



Yes, really, because the argument isn't aimed at the objective numbers but the perception people are talking about.


anyway, prowler indeed is a great tank.like higby said, prowler only perform slightly under MAG when you take anti-infantry into consideration. It just sucks as a MBT.


How does this sentence make any sense?
Its a great tank, except its a bad tank?

The game is asymmetrical, not every tank needs to do the same thing. If the Prowler is the best AI tank (which it isn't exclusively from my experience) so be it, no problem.

[Dkamanus]

really？ your argument is your personal experience?

anyway, prowler indeed is a great tank.like higby said, prowler only perform slightly under MAG when you take anti-infantry into consideration. It just sucks as a MBT.

i think the vanguard need the most buff. It cant deal with MAG where most tank fight take place, and cant deal with infantry nearly as good as a prowler.

That is quite true. I decided to use my HE cannon yesterday against some target that were attacking tawrich. I don't remember having such a hard time killing infantry as yesterday. Splash damage close to the infantry wasn't killing it as reliably as before, only direct hits. Felt our Titan-HE so underwhelming that I think I won't be using it for some time now.

Still, one thing that bugs me is the fact that now the prowler is the most hard hitting tank of em all, totally contrary to the NC belief. Specially since we have the slowest reload of em all. As said, good prowler driver will make the Prowler way much deadlier at close range, even with the normalization of the Vulcan.

In the Vanguard's defense, we must remember that it is a solid tank that can do decent close and long range combat. While the prowler excels at close and the magrider at range, Vanguards seem to be much more in between now. With the velocity increase of the Enforcer, even with the drop, this will add MUCH more killing power at range, which was something the enforcer was lacking.

Probably the drop will be smaller then the Halberd (which has a BIG drop), making still the Enforcer much more prefered as a long range combat secondary gun.

[ChipMHazard]

The game is asymmetrical, not every tank needs to do the same thing. If the Prowler is the best AI tank (which it isn't exclusively from my experience) so be it, no problem.

No, but they do need to able to handle the same thing. They are MBTs and as such they should be able to handle other MBTs. Differently, yes but they should also be equally effecient at it.

If the Prowler was meant as an anti-infantry tank then it should have been designed to be such, which would make the lightning even more useless for the TR... Or perhaps the other way around.
Besides, what use is an anti-infantry focused tank in a fight against other tanks that are designed to take out your tank?

[Assist]

lol, nerfed anyways. Rather than writing a long winded post, again, I'll just say the balancing team is the biggest joke in PvP gaming history.

At least I got a fucking sticker I can buy; stick a poodle on my Magrider so people know it's me when I still run 200:1 k/d
Hopefully one day you balance the game rather than just making it more fucking annoying to play.

[PeanutMF]

What a silly question? They were of course made to be the backbone in any groundbased engagement. That does not mean that, that is all they are good for.

It was a response to the invention of tanks in general, not specifically gameplay related. Stating that why would people create something that is made to counter itself only.


All MBTs are more than capable of dealing with infantry. The only real reason as to why the Prowler is better at killing infantry is because of its dual barrels. When other MBTs fire at infantry it's just overkill, when Prowlers fire it's less overkill times 2, as in you can apply the max damage across a larger area faster than any other MBT. Why do you think that they want to change The Vanguard's long range capabilities against the Magrider?


I'm failing to understand this paragraph though. The Prowler does the same splash damage as the other tanks so by your definition it would be "same overkill x2"? Unless you try to direct hit infantry all the time in the Prowler. I also have no clue how talking about anti-infantry capabilities of the Prowler segues into reasoning behind Vanguard vs Magrider changes.

Unless you are responding to my post in chronological order, then in which case I know that's what it's for; I'm not retarded. I'm just stating that's what I think the Vanguard needs regardless of what is in store in the patch. If not then I am at a loss.

Also if you only take into account the cannons of the Vanguard and Mag then I would agree they are equal however the mobility of the Mag allows it to get in all sorts of places and chase down infantry in tighter areas, as well as the chassis stability allowing it to make quick shots against infantry while moving/regardless of terrain. Personally I wouldn't consider the heavier armour of the Vanguard as an advantage given the likelihood of infantry flanking in such situations.

Also I know that is has been iterated many times before by many a Vanu player and is probably a tired statement but the Saron is not easy to snipe infantry with unless they are either completely still or not moving laterally compared to the gunner. If it takes more than 1 shot to kill infantry with a Saron to me that's wasted ammo, and it's not easy to do consistently.

[ChipMHazard]

It was a response to the invention of tanks in general, not specifically gameplay related. Stating that why would people create something that is made to counter itself only.

This isn't about the MBTs only being able to counter each other, but for the ability to defeat enemy armor, more specifically enemy MBTs, to be its primary goal. Basicly just like in real-life.


I'm failing to understand this paragraph though. The Prowler does the same splash damage as the other tanks so by your definition it would be "same overkill x2"? Unless you try to direct hit infantry all the time in the Prowler. I also have no clue how talking about anti-infantry capabilities of the Prowler segues into reasoning behind Vanguard vs Magrider changes.

Unless you are responding to my post in chronological order, then in which case I know that's what it's for; I'm not retarded. I'm just stating that's what I think the Vanguard needs regardless of what is in store in the patch. If not then I am at a loss.

Also if you only take into account the cannons of the Vanguard and Mag then I would agree they are equal however the mobility of the Mag allows it to get in all sorts of places and chase down infantry in tighter areas, as well as the chassis stability allowing it to make quick shots against infantry while moving/regardless of terrain. Personally I wouldn't consider the heavier armour of the Vanguard as an advantage given the likelihood of infantry flanking in such situations.

Also I know that is has been iterated many times before by many a Vanu player and is probably a tired statement but the Saron is not easy to snipe infantry with unless they are either completely still or not moving laterally compared to the gunner. If it takes more than 1 shot to kill infantry with a Saron to me that's wasted ammo, and it's not easy to do consistently.

Ah, now that PSU is running well again I can make my reply.

Probably just my unclear phrasing, I'm suffering abit from a headache atm. so if I am being too unclear about something I would certainly like to clarify it. You're right the Prowler rounds deal the same indirect damage as the rest, it just has two rounds available.
My comment about the Vanguard was centered on your comment that the Vanguard was argueable the weakest tank. It doesn't have anything to do with the Prowler.

"This is probably what makes the Vanguard overall the weakest tank (imo) since it's mediocre at anti-infantry and its anti-tank ability is still bested by the magrider at all ranges except close up."

That's why I wrote that, that is why they are making the Vanguard stronger against ranged targets. And yes I was trying to reply to your comment in order and I agree that the Vanguard needed the buffs that it recieved, this making it better at being a tank... I never referred to you as being retarded:/

Yes, I was just referring to the damage capabilities of each tank. There are of course many more variables that come into play when fighting infantry. Are you in the open or inside a facility: Where the Magrider might run into problems with turning, and where the Vanguard would as you wrote get flanked. If fighting in the open it's another story, here the Magrider's mobility would come into play more. So I mostly agree with you.

Easier than any other secondary weapon I would wager, which apparently was the crux of the matter.

[Plissket]

When i get into close Combat with a TR Prowler or a NC Vanguard, most of the Time we do not survive.


I just got into close combat with a vanguard I spotted chasing a badly damaged Mag, I assume the mag got some shots off, but I don't know.

I do know that I got two hits into the vanguard's side (I saw no extra armour, assuming that it has that bolt on metal graphic?) before it responded, I did miss once but apart from that I was firing as fast as I could into its side, and they were firing as fast as they could into my front at close range.

I died, the vanguard still had 40% health left :( On the bright side it was a good excuse to log off I guess.

I think getting close with another tank is an instant death sentence now with a mag, because we are too slow to run away and we need to out number the enemy 2-1 to be able to win any sort of slugging match. Since there are not many wide open places I don't see the mag doing so well now. As a activity most of the time sniping at range is normally a great way to waste time since people just duck behind cover and repair back up, so I don't see it as a fantastic advantage that one of its guns has no bullet drop.

The mag was the best tank imo before this patch, although its more my playstyle I think since I've always used one in PS1, but I had a bad feeling when I did see the patch notes had so many changes to the same area at once. Even if this was the correct change I question the wisdom to make all the changes in one go rather then one at a time seeing their effect individually.

[ChipMHazard]

There's a bug with the Magriders strafing atm. They aren't supposed to move any slower, except for their hill climbing advantage, they are going to fix it.