Vanu shotguns with slugs are just flat out better than TR and NC.

[Ghoest9]

This was an issue since the beginning but back in the summer it became worse not better and it hasnt changed.

NC and TR shotguns have extreme drop. Vanu dont.

Yes Vanu have lower velocity - but the situations where long range shooting works well(since you need to make 3 hits) are stationary targets, so the velocity doesnt really matter.

This allows Vanu Light Assault playstyle that is much less viable as TR or NC.

[Plaqueis]

This was an issue since the beginning but back in the summer it became worse not better and it hasnt changed.

NC and TR shotguns have extreme drop. Vanu dont.

Yes Vanu have lower velocity - but the situations where long range shooting works well(since you need to make 3 hits) are stationary targets, so the velocity doesnt really matter.

This allows Vanu Light Assault playstyle that is much less viable as TR or NC.

Running out of things to whine about?

Ffs, only difference in the shotguns that i've seen is that NC ones hit a bit harder.. or so it feels atleast.

EDIT: For the record, i haven't played with my main for few weeks now, i needed a change so i've been ranking up my TR character. I haven't found the gameplay any different apart for some obvious things (Striker, Vulcan, Minigun, Prowler etc). I bought the Uppercut just out of interest, and it's just as shitty as the VS pump-action i have, forgot its name.

[AThreatToYou]

Running out of things to whine about?

Ffs, only difference in the shotguns that i've seen is that NC ones hit a bit harder.. or so it feels atleast.

EDIT: For the record, i haven't played with my main for few weeks now, i needed a change so i've been ranking up my TR character. I haven't found the gameplay any different apart for some obvious things (Striker, Vulcan, Minigun, Prowler etc). I bought the Uppercut just out of interest, and it's just as shitty as the VS pump-action i have, forgot its name.

No, you tote.

The standard shotguns are essentially all identical except for one simple fact:

VS shotguns with slugs do not have bullet drop. Ergo, they are dramatically more effective... in fact, they are actually USABLE as a semi-auto rifle, albeit a tad short-ranged.

What's gained out of this is essentially a weapon that the NC and TR do not have. Does it make a difference in balance? Right now it doesn't so I'm fine with the way it is.

[KesTro]

Yeah it's really not that big of a deal, you can use the NC and TR variants for the same thing if you oh I don't know, account for bullet drop? The thing you have to do with every weapon anyhow on NC and TR.

[Plaqueis]

No, you tote.

The standard shotguns are essentially all identical except for one simple fact:

VS shotguns with slugs do not have bullet drop. Ergo, they are dramatically more effective... in fact, they are actually USABLE as a semi-auto rifle, albeit a tad short-ranged.

What's gained out of this is essentially a weapon that the NC and TR do not have. Does it make a difference in balance? Right now it doesn't so I'm fine with the way it is.

Lol whatever, this is so trivial and anything but 'dramatic'.. i bet that nobody (well, except maybe the 3 players actually using shotguns at any kind of range) would even notice if they removed the VS slugs all together from the game. I mean, my deaths to shotguns in general are likely way less than 1%, and not once do i recall dying to shotgun from anything but pointblank range. Granted, i've only played since the release, but still, i have quite alot of game time.

I do agree on the balance though, it means absolutely nothing regarding to it.

[Plaqueis]

Yeah it's really not that big of a deal, you can use the NC and TR variants for the same thing if you oh I don't know, account for bullet drop? The thing you have to do with every weapon anyhow on NC and TR.

Can't say about NC weapons, but i haven't found TR guns all that different, except maybe Hailstorm with silencer (seems to have slightly more drop than the Sirius with same setup). In fact, i found the Rams .50 way easier to shoot and hit than Parallax, just for example.

[Ghoest9]

Running out of things to whine about?

Ffs, only difference in the shotguns that i've seen is that NC ones hit a bit harder.. or so it feels atleast.

EDIT: For the record, i haven't played with my main for few weeks now, i needed a change so i've been ranking up my TR character. I haven't found the gameplay any different apart for some obvious things (Striker, Vulcan, Minigun, Prowler etc). I bought the Uppercut just out of interest, and it's just as shitty as the VS pump-action i have, forgot its name.


Go away. If you dont play the game enough or well enough to understand how the weapons work you have no business griping about the people who do understand when they talk about it. When you make counter arguments that include factual mistakes you look like a <moderated.>

[Ghoest9]

Yeah it's really not that big of a deal, you can use the NC and TR variants for the same thing if you oh I don't know, account for bullet drop? The thing you have to do with every weapon anyhow on NC and TR.

Wrong.

Im guessing you dont spend time using slugs to snipe with light assaults.

When you have to make 3(or maybe 2 head shots and a body shot) head shots to kill someone at 100 meters with a slow firing gun it matters.

[Plaqueis]

Go away. If you dont play the game enough or well enough to understand how the weapons work you have no business griping about the people who do understand when they talk about it. When you make counter arguments that include factual mistakes you look like a <moderated.>

Bleh.. i'm just tired of people whining about stuf like this when there's so many things wrong in game that have actual effect on gaming experience in general. In that context, shit like this means nothing whatsoever. Kinda like the apparently upcoming sniper range cap; absolutely pointless nerf, except that it isn't even needed. If anything, they need a buff.

The shotguns are just fine as they are. If there's some fine tuning needed, it surely is way way down on the the 'things needing a fix'-list.

[ChipMHazard]

I don't see the issue, by that I mean I don't think it's an actual issue ingame since so few people seem to use slugs or they are otherwise so ineffective compared to other medium/long range choices that it doesn't really matter.
It's obvious that the VS shotguns are superior in this respect, but I don't think it has any real consequence balance wise.

I also don't see a reason for such hostility.

[Plaqueis]

I don't see the issue, by that I mean I don't think it's an actual issue ingame since so few people seem to use slugs or they are otherwise so ineffective compared to other medium/long range choices that it doesn't really matter.
It's obvious that the VS shotguns are superior in this respect, but I don't think it has any real consequence balance wise.

I also don't see a reason for such hostility.

^This.

Use the shotgun as CQB weapon as it's supposed to, and there's no difference whatsoever in them afaik. My statement about the NC ones are based on 'feel' just like i said on the earlier post, i don't know why that is. Maybe NC just uses them more or something, i dunno.

[Emperor Newt]

Are slugs affected by bloom and first shot recoil modifiers (and/or anything else)?

[Ghoest9]

I don't see the issue, by that I mean I don't think it's an actual issue ingame since so few people seem to use slugs or they are otherwise so ineffective compared to other medium/long range choices that it doesn't really matter.
It's obvious that the VS shotguns are superior in this respect, but I don't think it has any real consequence balance wise.

I also don't see a reason for such hostility.

I have 1000s of kills with NC slugs(mostly from back before the slug nerfs). It matters to me.

[Ghoest9]

Are slugs affected by bloom and first shot recoil modifiers (and/or anything else)?

Yes you have to let the sights "settle" if you want accurate follow up shots. Im not sure the the first shot recoil is more than the second shot but its a moot point because you have to wait for the bloom either way.

[ChipMHazard]

Are slugs affected by bloom and first shot recoil modifiers (and/or anything else)?

Bloom, yes. First shot recoil modifier, no idea.

I have 1000s of kills with NC slugs(mostly from back before the slug nerfs). It matters to me.

Naturally it matters to you, didn't state otherwise. I just don't see the big issue myself though, which just comes down to not using them myself. So I'll give yah that.
The "no drop" benefit is vanu specific so I guess the only way to bring the NC/TR in line with the VS would be to reduce the drop to such an extent that it no longer really matters.
I think slugs were more of an afterthought when it came to giving the shotgun longer range capabilities.

[KesTro]

Wrong.

Im guessing you dont spend time using slugs to snipe with light assaults.

When you have to make 3(or maybe 2 head shots and a body shot) head shots to kill someone at 100 meters with a slow firing gun it matters.

Wrong. I do, and I have no problem accounting for bullet drop. The lack of bullet drop on Vanu is just a gimmick and players who have been accounting for bullet drop since day one tend to have a harder time playing them. That's what I've observed from outfit mates and friends anyhow.

Not but a month ago I can recall sniping people with the Sweeper 4x scope and slugs from the bottoms of the canyons at the SE WG on Indar, worked just fine there. It's not something I would use regularly just as I'm sure VS would not use their shotgun with slugs regularly either.

[Ghoest9]

Wrong. I do, and I have no problem accounting for bullet drop. The lack of bullet drop on Vanu is just a gimmick and players who have been accounting for bullet drop since day one tend to have a harder time playing them. That's what I've observed from outfit mates and friends anyhow.

Not but a month ago I can recall sniping people with the Sweeper 4x scope and slugs from the bottoms of the canyons at the SE WG on Indar, worked just fine there. It's not something I would use regularly just as I'm sure VS would not use their shotgun with slugs regularly either.

So a month ago in one instance you tried out some slugs and you decided their fine but not something you would use.


Anyway - they drop like rocks at range. Ive almost only ever played NC and they are a miserable weapon now most suited for goof off plinking not for going out and getting kills.

[GreyFrog]

Why is this a problem? Can we not have unique empire mechanics now?

Well shit, put me down for a Jackhammer on my TR please.

[isilyan]

Gotta agree with OP:rofl:
VS slugs are op, you can just farm for days at mid/long range with them:groovy:
I just dont get why SOE dont nerf the bullet speed of those things:mad:
Imho it is one of the most pressing balance issues in the game atm:huh:

http://www.thevanuaccord.com/sigs/sig-5428011263290043633-4.png (http://www.thevanuaccord.com)

[Ghoest9]

Why is this a problem? Can we not have unique empire mechanics now?

Well shit, put me down for a Jackhammer on my TR please.


Think harder troll.

All the regular shotguns are identical between the 3 factions. Then when you put slugs in them the TR and NC are still identical. But the Vanu is different.
The TR and NC guns have extreme bullet drop but the Vanu has none. In exchange the the Vanu has slightly lower velocity - but that doesnt matter because they all travel so slow that at range you can only shoot stationary targets.

[Ghoest9]

Gotta agree with OP:rofl:
VS slugs are op, you can just farm for days at mid/long range with them:groovy:
I just dont get why SOE dont nerf the bullet speed of those things:mad:
Imho it is one of the most pressing balance issues in the game atm:huh:

http://www.thevanuaccord.com/sigs/sig-5428011263290043633-4.png (http://www.thevanuaccord.com)


At range all the slugs are so slow that it simply doesnt matter - you will only be killing stationary targets with any of them.

[BRUTALPLAYS]

put me down for a Jackhammer on my TR please.

I would also like a jackhammer please. Actually make that two, one for each arm of my ZOE :)

[GreyFrog]

So by your own admission you only snipe stationary targets with this mechanic. Easily done with weapons with bullet drop, you get used to compensating quick enough. Also easy to do with almost any weapon.

Gosh I'm glad we cleared up that crisis before someone popped a blood vessel.

[Ghoest9]

So by your own admission you only snipe stationary targets with this mechanic. Easily done with weapons with bullet drop, you get used to compensating quick enough. Also easy to do with almost any weapon.

Gosh I'm glad we cleared up that crisis before someone popped a blood vessel.


No.

Apparently you have not been trying to snipe with slug guns in their current form.

Why dont you try playing the game instead of demonstrating your ignorance.

[AThreatToYou]

ITT:

http://i.imgur.com/bIOkTnR.gif

Except less cool.

[KesTro]

Eh, the guy has a point even if I don't agree with him. I think there's LOADS more of pressing issues to be addressed before something like this though, namely vehicle/max balance - But hey if he wants to let an issue be known, whatever that's cool.

[War Barney]

Its not really news that the VS have the best of everything, there needs to be a faction for new players thats easy to use or new players would just quit. It would be nice if it forced played into one of the balanced factions after they've been playing a while instead of letting people stay in the tutorial faction.

[GreyFrog]

ITT: One person has an issue, no one else does, therefore game breaking balance issue.

@Ghoest - I have two characters over level 80, I play this game a lot. It really isnt a concern personally and hardly game breaking. So now you've accused a bunch of us of being ignorant pony up some game play stats.

[maradine]

Why is this a problem? Can we not have unique empire mechanics now?

Well shit, put me down for a Jackhammer on my TR please.

A-fucking-men.

To the general sentiment. You only get a Jackhammer if we do too, pal.

edit: irony!

[Ghoest9]

ITT: One person has an issue, no one else does, therefore game breaking balance issue.

@Ghoest - I have two characters over level 80, I play this game a lot. It really isnt a concern personally and hardly game breaking. So now you've accused a bunch of us of being ignorant pony up some game play stats.



Ehhh - Im Ghoest. Not exactly a secret.
Havent played a lot lately but I have used shotgun slugs plenty.

[GreyFrog]

Fair enough. Look at it from our point of view;

* You brought up a game mechanic that you thought needed balancing. The only evidence is personal experience.
* Quite a few people suggested that in their experience its not an issue.
* You proceeded to insult anyone who disagreed.

I'm all up for some discussion, lets see a video of slug sniping in action or some stat suggesting that Vanu shotguns are in someway vastly out performing NC/TR shotguns. Otherwise it seems rather pointless to discuss if you aren't open to other peoples experiences.

Out of interest just how often are you getting pinged by Vanu shotgun snipers?

[Ghoest9]

Fair enough. Look at it from our point of view;

* You brought up a game mechanic that you thought needed balancing. The only evidence is personal experience.
* Quite a few people suggested that in their experience its not an issue.
* You proceeded to insult anyone who disagreed.

I'm all up for some discussion, lets see a video of slug sniping in action or some stat suggesting that Vanu shotguns are in someway vastly out performing NC/TR shotguns. Otherwise it seems rather pointless to discuss if you aren't open to other peoples experiences.

Out of interest just how often are you getting pinged by Vanu shotgun snipers?


Wrong I gave specifics of the inequity as evidence.

Other people basically said 'Were so good that the inequity doesnt bother us." No one disputed the inequity.


Making videos doesnt mean shit - everyone can go into VR and see exactly how the guns compare for shooting long range stationary targets - its just a way for you to pretend my explanation isnt valid.
This isnt about e-penes - its about an onvious advanatge that anyone can see with testing.

And just to be clear the TR and NC shotguns were ok with slugs before this summers nerf. Back then the Vanu was probably better but the NC and TR were good enough that it didnt matter.
But after the nerf the NC and TR became much worse relative to the Vanu.

[Snoopy]

If they're standing still, why don't you aim above their head? Or better yet, get a sniper rifle?

[maradine]

I wonder what you'd say if all the shotgun data across factions was the same.

[Falcon_br]

It is like the battle rifles.
They all have the same status, but the VS has no bullet drop with no drawback.
The point is, nobody uses battle rifle, the few I see using, are VS.

[Emperor Newt]

It is like the battle rifles.
They all have the same status, but the VS has no bullet drop with no drawback.
The point is, nobody uses battle rifle, the few I see using, are VS.
And even VS only use them "for the lols". Nobody I know considers battle rifles or slugs (and scout rifles, full auto at least) a weapon worthy to carry around. They are fun to fool around with for a while, but when it matters you choose something else. Slugs were awesome a while back, but after the nerf they are no longer worthy to consider. Not even without bullet drop.

[Plaqueis]

Other people basically said 'Were so good that the inequity doesnt bother us."

Wrong. Other people said that this means nothing whatsoever regarding balance, and that there's far bigger and more important issues in game that have actual effect on balance and that need fixing way before this one.

[Plaqueis]

I wonder what you'd say if all the shotgun data across factions was the same.

Hmm, do i sense Oracles presence..? =)

[Ghoest9]

Wrong. Other people said that this means nothing whatsoever regarding balance, and that there's far bigger and more important issues in game that have actual effect on balance and that need fixing way before this one.

[Don't throw around insults - Chip]

Of course some people say "Its just not important." And thats totally valid.
I have a similar perceptive on MAXes - I think that they are all similar enough that the differences have no effect on the over all balance of the game. Even if some are unfairly better - it just doesnt matter to me.

Thats not at all the conversation that was going on with what you quoted however.

[Ghoest9]

I wonder what you'd say if all the shotgun data across factions was the same.

Id be happy.
Id probably then ask for a slight buff to slugs at range so they got back the level they have ~6 months ago.

[GreyFrog]

Someone put a post up on the official forums accounting for bullet drop and calculating differences in inclination. https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/how-beneficial-is-no-bullet-drop.160840/

At 50m its little over 2 degrees, and this is why most of don't have an issue.

Your specifics were personal experience, there was no evidence. Its exactly your word against others.

Going into VR and comparing how slugs perform only confirms the difference in mechanics. It does not infer better performance. Your logic is terribly flawed and your posts overly aggressive, creating a sad excuse for a discussion thread.

[KesTro]

What gets me is that by Ghoest's own admission he's said he hasn't played much recently while plenty of us who play for hours on a daily basis have suggested that this isn't 'too' big of a difference in power. Honestly if you don't like anything about shotguns I think it's that they've received nothing but nerfs in general since they were added. That being said I still think if you were to get in the game and give it some practice you'd find that you weren't underperforming compared to VS or TR slug shotgun users - You would however be underperforming to a lot of other things.

In case people haven't been paying attention to shotguns in general there's 'a lot' of controversy around them. Some people hate them some love them, some cry OP, others dry UP. There really is no finding that perfect balance with shotguns, someone's always going to feel as if they've been wronged when you change stats around on them.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong or state otherwise in a manner other than "Wrong.".

[Ghoest9]

What gets me is that by Ghoest's own admission he's said he hasn't played much recently while plenty of us who play for hours on a daily basis have suggested that this isn't 'too' big of a difference in power. Honestly if you don't like anything about shotguns I think it's that they've received nothing but nerfs in general since they were added. That being said I still think if you were to get in the game and give it some practice you'd find that you weren't underperforming compared to VS or TR slug shotgun users - You would however be underperforming to a lot of other things.

In case people haven't been paying attention to shotguns in general there's 'a lot' of controversy around them. Some people hate them some love them, some cry OP, others dry UP. There really is no finding that perfect balance with shotguns, someone's always going to feel as if they've been wronged when you change stats around on them.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong or state otherwise in a manner other than "Wrong.".

I dont see how talking about how much I play lately has any relevance since the last time the were changed was long before I backed off.

Maybe I was one of the very few people who liked to flank and hide then snipe people as a light assault - but if you play that stayle which involves shooting stationary targets the difference is obvious - and its EXACTLY like VR.

[KesTro]

and its EXACTLY like VR.

I'm sorry but that simply isn't true for anything. Any player of reasonable intelligence isn't going to sit around and let you get those next two shots in. Besides if they're stationary targets like you claim you want to be shooting at bullet drop really shouldn't be an issue, invest in the 4x chevron sight if you have that much trouble adjusting your aim.

[ChipMHazard]

Oh, I don't know. I tend to find that when people don't think there are enemies nearby they do indeed tend to stay relatively still and I also don't tend to find most players to have any reasonable intelligence (Or rather situational awareness).
Players like Ghoest often have plenty of oppertunity to snipe above players with great success:p

[KesTro]

I'd love to find these players then because either A: Connery is lacking in them or B: They're all on the NC in which case I guess I'm in a bad spot.

[BRUTALPLAYS]

I have never even seen a shotgun slug "sniper" :lol:

Is that actually a thing?

[Emperor Newt]

It was until they nerfed slugs.

[Vashyo]

I have never even seen a shotgun slug "sniper" :lol:

Is that actually a thing?

I did it, as NC. It's insanely effective against anyone dumb enough to stand still for 2 seconds. Didn't even realize VS dont have drop...doh!

Gotta get me my new sniper shotgun for my VS-guy, now. :lol:

[isilyan]

Well OP got his way:doh:
Now VS have the slowest slugs with drop:rolleyes:
Inho this is the most balance breaking thing in PU2;)


http://www.thevanuaccord.com/sigs/sig-5428011263290043633-4.png (http://www.thevanuaccord.com)

[War Barney]

Aye the VS having to actually deal with bullet drop =0 their guns were based around the idea of being noob friendly so all the new players would have a faction to play before moving to TR or NC when they got good (or staying VS if they never did).

It seems unfair to balance the guns so that VS shotguns aren't just way better

[isilyan]

Ups :(

[isilyan]

Aye the VS having to actually deal with bullet drop =0 their guns were based around the idea of being noob friendly so all the new players would have a faction to play before moving to TR or NC when they got good (or staying VS if they never did).

It seems unfair to balance the guns so that VS shotguns aren't just way better

You are right, great god of smurfs:p We Vanu deserves the worst slugs, after feasting on these fram slugs for so long:groovy:
And yes;) No bullet drop and a little less recoil, is way better than 10 more in the mag:cry: the recoil in this game drives me carzy:rofl:

http://www.thevanuaccord.com/sigs/sig-5428011263290043633-4.png (http://www.thevanuaccord.com)

[NUKABAZOOKA]

It seems unfair to balance the guns so that VS shotguns aren't just way better

Well guess what, now they are the worst. In addition to having bullet drop, they now have the lowest velocity as well.
OP took an extremely niche playstyle that almost doesn't exist, made it a huge issue, and SOE in their typical kneejerk reaction nerf style, made it the worst.
And for what? No good and serious player I know even uses slugs.

This was such a non issue.

[War Barney]

They aren't the worst you just need to actually try to use them properly now

[isilyan]

They aren't the worst you just need to actually try to use them properly now
Papa Vanu will you damn your Scattermax slugs:mad: Those things are about the most game breaking thing about the Scattermax:evil:
Just wait until SOE will stomp them into the ground because of the outcry from the players:p

http://www.thevanuaccord.com/sigs/sig-5428011263290043633-4.png (http://www.thevanuaccord.com)

[War Barney]

You think they will nerf 1 of the most underpowered things in the game? or are you one of those people whos been brainwashed so completely that you actually believe the NC MAX and every gun it has isn't the worst thing in the entire world. I would rather buy a pointed stick with those resource points than a NC MAX

[isilyan]

You think they will nerf 1 of the most underpowered things in the game? or are you one of those people whos been brainwashed so completely that you actually believe the NC MAX and every gun it has isn't the worst thing in the entire world. I would rather buy a pointed stick with those resource points than a NC MAX
Ok you got me there:confused:
You win this retoric duel of the sword, my God of Smurfs:groovy:

http://www.thevanuaccord.com/sigs/sig-5428011263290043633-4.png (http://www.thevanuaccord.com)