Spawn Room Campers (and other gripes)

[synkrotron]

I know I'm in for a large amount of flak on this, but here goes...

I was in a Spawn Room the other night. It was in a facility that was being defended and was under heavy attack. I was constantly switching between Engineer (to service the MAX units), Medic (to heal those brave enough to go outside) and Infiltrator (to pick off the enemy where I could).

I did most of this from the Spawn Room. There were times when I did venture outside and I rez'd people when I thought it was safe. I'm sure I'm not the only one here that struggles with close quarter fighting. Not that I don't try it... I'm just crap and I die more times than I would like. So, if the situation arises I work behind a shield and help as much as I can that way.

Anyway, the NC did a great job of defending the facility and I would like to think I played a part in that. I enjoyed doing what I could to keep the guys who are better than me in the game. Rez'ing a MAX, for instance, saves that guy waiting for his MAX aquisition timer to count down (is that how it works? I've never played as a MAX much).

Then this guy starts shouting, using Proximity Chat, telling all the "Spawn Room campers" to get out there and push up and generally being quite abusive really. I'm sure it wasn't directed at me personally because there were a few of us hanging around. We were perhaps looking at the map or something...

I just ignored the verbal onslaught. It's not like it's the real army is it? I'm here to have a bit of fun, not to be ordered around by some random person. If he wants to talk to his platoon like that then fine, please do it on squad or platoon chat.

At the end of a defence like that I like to sit back a bit and take stock. And what's the point of diving straight out there just to get counter sniped?

Seriously, I leave all that run and gun, spray and pray Quake Arena Death Match stuff to those who enjoy doing that kind of thing.

I can't see why the Spawn Room Campers can't be left to do what they want. I've seen many peeps just standing there while a MAX is shouting "I need ammo!" So what? Is there any need to take a swipe at the guy just because he is not behaving as he should? Does he really deserve to be team killed?


Okay... I best "Redploy" now before I get one in the back :p

[OCNSethy]

Ahh, the eternal PS2 conflict between spawn dwellers and non-spawn dwellers. My advice is, if solo, play the game you want. If you are in a squad, then it's wise to follow orders but always have fun.

[findus]

I'm with you, here...

One problem of defending from the spawn room is that the attackers wait at the choke points for you, usually with MAXs. And they have a majority in numbers...I've seen not much of PS2, only a year and never PS1, but in my limited expirience most counterattacks out of the spawn room with the minority in numbers fails. So you grant the enemy the delight of winning and points by achieving much less for yourself or your faction.
If there is a well organized outfit around, placing spawn beacons or sunderers on te flanks, then there is a chance, but if its not well coordinated, its due to fail. Shouting a peeople to move is not a sufficient order, it only gets you killed...nothing more. And, as you say, this ought to be fun, i'm not there to prove, that i can run into the fire and die, i know that already...

The real problem, i think, is the mere possibility that spawn rooms CAN be camped...IMHO this is a bad mechanic, but this is discussed elsewhere in length already.

My policy is to look at the numbers, if we are outnumbered, stay, get some points and hope reinforcements show up, otherwise redeploy in due time and reorganise at the next base. Usually Clausewitz gets proved right and by some time the attackers loose momentum, which give an opportunity for a counterattack with better odds...

Only my two cents...

...and Merry Christmas, btw...

[Ohaunlaim]

I too enjoy a fine relaxing time inside a spawn camp every so often. I always spawn with a bag of marshmallows in my pocket just for such moments. On the other hand I have found that if I camp till the end, I usually end up camping much of the night as much of the enemy zerg is likely half way to the next base by the time I respawn post-loss. This eventually bores and frustrates me.

So I find I now usually give 3-5 rushes out of a spawn room and if I find, at the end, there was no progress made. I will respawn one base over, and start hitting the enemy in their poop-holes. (Because they are all looking at the spawns, this is generally easy pickings.)

Three things work for me cause I'm not a great CQC (close quarters combat) guy either.

1. Roll in a Sundry and park it on the opposite side of the base from the spawn room. Even if you're detected, their guys have to pull away from the spawns to deal with you (giving campers a chance to rush out).

2. Roll a tank or lighting, preferably AV and hit the sundy they are using to feed the spawn. I have also done mad, mad suicide rushes right into the midst of them causing general chaos as they all freak out and try to run to safety / kill something that they cant hide around a corner from.

3. Get into a good sniping position and pick off targets that are healing/reloading between bursts of pointless attacks against spawn shields. This is so easy because everybody is so sure the spawn campers will never make it out, so they tend to actually sit still for long enough to line up shots.

4. I don't often pull aircraft unless I know several other people are doing the same. Aircraft is the most obvious reaction to such situations so usually the enemy will have several dedicated max units and lightnings on AA duty.

[ChipMHazard]

Spawn rooms being what they are I can hardly blame you or anyone else from wanting to stay inside where the chance of unwanted bodily ventilation is quite low.
Where I can put the blame is on the level design putting them outside in the open. Of course one can never remove spawn camping, but one can limit it.

[ringring]

My rule was never to give the enemy free xp so if there's no possibility of retrieving a situation it is stupid to go outside.

The trouble is of course that some people want you to play in the way they want and they can be pretty obnoxious about it too. F*** 'em

[Hmr85]

You can't recap points from behind a Spawn shield. If your not pushing out helping the team your dead weight IMO. I am not a fan of Spawn room Heroes.

[Carbon Copied]

Spawn design and mechanics facilitate camping on both sides of the fence; it's infuriating from either direction so I really don't blame players for doing it. Whether you dress it up as spawn rooms with teleporters to/from another location or gravity tunnels they all lead to the same end result.

But hey if the devs keep shoveling the same shit often enough it's got to be working as intended and correct. Right?

[synkrotron]

If your not pushing out helping the team your dead weight IMO.

That's absolutely fine, and I understand your sentiment. It would be nice if people would let the SRC's do their thing, and the Rambo, "over the top" WW1 style of fighting do theirs.

If you are in a squad, then it's wise to follow orders but always have fun.

Absolutely, and I play with a squad at times and I follow what orders are given. Yeah... I'll go cap that point and die trying when I am rolling with my Outfit :)

I'm with you, here...

...and Merry Christmas, btw...

Thanks :) And a merry Christmas to all too :D

I wonder, do the TR, NC and VS all get to go hunting Snowmen tomorrow, without shooting each other?

3. Get into a good sniping position and pick off targets that are healing/reloading between bursts of pointless attacks against spawn shields. This is so easy because everybody is so sure the spawn campers will never make it out, so they tend to actually sit still for long enough to line up shots.

Yep, same here, when the mood takes me :) I usually get knifed in the process but if I've taken down a few enemy snipers in the meantime I'm a happy, *ahem* camper :D

But hey if the devs keep shoveling the same shit often enough it's got to be working as intended and correct. Right?

Of course... that's it really... I mean, some shields you can shoot through and some you can't. I've never really understood that, and perhaps they will "fix" that for the future.

In the meantime, if I'm in a Spawn Room, and I see you pop your head from behind a rock, I can only say that you should have been a bit more careful...

Thanks for the feedback here by the way. It might be because peeps are busy.

[Ghoest9]

Play the game the way you like. As long as you arent exploiting or or TKing no one has any business telling you the right way to play.


It doesnt mean anything if someone "isnt a fan" of you other than that they can be ignored.

[Baneblade]

People get mad at me too when we manage to lose a base, because I'm rolling around it in a tank doing more damage to the enemy than they are. But hey, I romp around in the pixelmud too... when I feel like it.

[Rivenshield]

Where I can put the blame is on the level design putting them outside in the open.

Along with a good many cap points. I cannot understand why this hasn't been rectified.

[SixShooter]

I see nothing wrong with providing support in a spawn room if that's where the fight is centered around. Support troops are not supposed to be pushing out on the front lines, they should be supporting the assault troops.

As others have said, play your game your way and have fun regardless of how others think you should be doing it.

[ShadoViper]

Well if the spawn room design wasn't terrible it might be a different story. But play the game how you want to and what makes sense.

[snafus]

In the end no one can tell you how to play the game man. But from the perspective of an organized outfit I can tell you it is very frustrating to attempt to save a lost base and see twenty some odd people hiding within the spawn not pushing the point. Though you will die when attempting to push out of a spawn if you see friendly forces attempting to retake the point it is always good to try and assist them in the effort. But as I said no one can force you to do anything just letting you know why some may find it a little annoying is all.

[Obstruction]

as a pilot for a full time Liberator team, i LOVE that abusive idiot.

some days you get nothing but burster max shooting out of the shields, or wobbly kneed heavy assaults poking the nose of their little shoulder cannon out to fire a lock-on.

but some days, some glorious, cert-filled days, you find a spawn room with a stream of brave little ants coursing out from it ready to be blasted into little glowing piles of nanites. sometimes they even scurry right over to the vehicle terminal and pull vehicles!

we wait politely, of course. then blast those to hell too.

[War Barney]

The problem is PS2 is a teambased game so if people in your team (in this case faction) aren't being helpful you lose. Sitting in the spawn rezzing might seem helpful but you are honestly not helping even slightly, its the capture points you need to retake, the sundies you need to blow up, constantly rezzing people in spawn does nothing.

Yes you might die a bit but you have a closer spawn point normally so can slowly make ground, if you never leave the spawn you will never get anywhere. I know people say *well I pay so I'll play how I like* but if you're going to say that you have no right to complain about the people who pay and play by giving orders that would let your side win if they were followed.

[Verrijden]

The problem is PS2 is a teambased game so if people in your team (in this case faction) aren't being helpful you lose. Sitting in the spawn rezzing might seem helpful but you are honestly not helping even slightly, its the capture points you need to retake, the sundies you need to blow up, constantly rezzing people in spawn does nothing.

Yes you might die a bit but you have a closer spawn point normally so can slowly make ground, if you never leave the spawn you will never get anywhere. I know people say *well I pay so I'll play how I like* but if you're going to say that you have no right to complain about the people who pay and play by giving orders that would let your side win if they were followed.

Big deference between spawn room camping and giving orders to people you don't even know. If I am hanging in the spawn room, then I am not bothering anyone. If someone is pissy because I want to kick it in the spawn room then they can go fuck themself. On the other hand, if I am running around shouting orders through prox then I am potentially making people uncomfortable and upsetting people. You see the difference?

P.S. We never signed any agreement that says we have to be useful to our empire if we want to play this game. I can jump around in the WG all day and that will not harm anyone.

[Tatwi]

Big deference between spawn room camping and giving orders to people you don't even know. If I am hanging in the spawn room, then I am not bothering anyone. If someone is pissy because I want to kick it in the spawn room then they can go fuck themself. On the other hand, if I am running around shouting orders through prox then I am potentially making people uncomfortable and upsetting people. You see the difference?

P.S. We never signed any agreement that says we have to be useful to our empire if we want to play this game. I can jump around in the WG all day and that will not harm anyone.

That was well said. I agree.

Ultimately, who cares? Really. It's just a game. :groovy:

[War Barney]

Theres not a big difference really... well there is, you can mute the guy giving orders and its over, the guy giving orders can't replace you with somebody whos going to help so his game is still ruined by you being so counter-productive.

People are to focused on the idea of *I'll play how I like*, thats a fine attitude for single player games but this is a multiplayer game, how you play affects other people and their enjoyment and its hardly fair for you to ruin the experience of everybody else cos you want to be lazy and sit in the spawn.

Think of it in terms of a real sport, if you had a team which worked together and 2 guys who whenever you needed them just ignored you entirely or helped the other team then said *I pay for my stuff I'll do what I want!*, you'd be angry at them.

Ultimately if you hate playing with other people you should really play single player games, you might think its your choice how you play and it doesn't matter if you camp spawn but it does when you are affecting not only the exp gain but more importantly other outfits might think a battle is fine cos the % is 70-30 (in their favour) but then it turns out 50% of their side is actually spawn campers doing nothing so its more like 20-30 and you lose horribly.


This is one of those things that is really hard to explain to people cos it sounds like you are being unreasonable when you explain why they can't just play how they like, but seriously when it comes to a multiplayer game you can't just think about yourself you need to think about other people, and camping spawn doing nothing ruins their gaming experience.

[Ghoest9]

The problem is PS2 is a teambased game so if people in your team (in this case faction) aren't being helpful you lose. Sitting in the spawn rezzing might seem helpful but you are honestly not helping even slightly, its the capture points you need to retake, the sundies you need to blow up, constantly rezzing people in spawn does nothing.

Yes you might die a bit but you have a closer spawn point normally so can slowly make ground, if you never leave the spawn you will never get anywhere. I know people say *well I pay so I'll play how I like* but if you're going to say that you have no right to complain about the people who pay and play by giving orders that would let your side win if they were followed.


Its not a 'team based game" itsa game that supports team based play.

[Ghoest9]

Theres not a big difference really... well there is, you can mute the guy giving orders and its over, the guy giving orders can't replace you with somebody whos going to help so his game is still ruined by you being so counter-productive.

People are to focused on the idea of *I'll play how I like*, thats a fine attitude for single player games but this is a multiplayer game, how you play affects other people and their enjoyment and its hardly fair for you to ruin the experience of everybody else cos you want to be lazy and sit in the spawn.

Think of it in terms of a real sport, if you had a team which worked together and 2 guys who whenever you needed them just ignored you entirely or helped the other team then said *I pay for my stuff I'll do what I want!*, you'd be angry at them.

Ultimately if you hate playing with other people you should really play single player games, you might think its your choice how you play and it doesn't matter if you camp spawn but it does when you are affecting not only the exp gain but more importantly other outfits might think a battle is fine cos the % is 70-30 (in their favour) but then it turns out 50% of their side is actually spawn campers doing nothing so its more like 20-30 and you lose horribly.


This is one of those things that is really hard to explain to people cos it sounds like you are being unreasonable when you explain why they can't just play how they like, but seriously when it comes to a multiplayer game you can't just think about yourself you need to think about other people, and camping spawn doing nothing ruins their gaming experience.

Get your head out of your self important butt.

Many people play this game because they want to PVP - not because they want to listen wanna be leaders give orders.


The only reason its hard to explain your position is because your position is based on your opinion being arbitrarily deemed correct.

[Verrijden]

the guy giving orders can't replace you with somebody whos going to help so his game is still ruined by you being so counter-productive.

For real though? Your Planetside 2 experience is "ruined" when people dont do what you want them to? Wow, Im sorry for you.


Think of it in terms of a real sport, if you had a team which worked together and 2 guys who whenever you needed them just ignored you entirely or helped the other team then said *I pay for my stuff I'll do what I want!*, you'd be angry at them.

In "real sports" you get a roster and usually fill that roster with the best available players. If 2 players in my 10 man team aren't playing as a team then yes, I would replace them. However, Planetside 2 does not work like that. You can take your friends or outfit mates on a mission to cap ALL the points and when you run into my happy ass, doing whatever the hell I want to, I do not get in your way or interrupt your experience in ANY WAY. Get over yourself dude.

[DynamoECT]

Yes, you have the right to play as you see fit.

On the other hand, many people will get annoyed if they see large groups cowering in the spawn rather than retaking the points, as that many could make the difference if they'd man up and rush rather than hide.

This problem reaches maximum annoyance when those brave enough to rush out are getting shot in the back due to so many shooting out of spawn.

Conclusion: play as you like, but as your spawn hiding group becomes larger, the more likely it is that certain people will let you know that you all suck, and possibly try and "motivate" you out of spawn with C4. (not that I'd go that far)

[War Barney]

<sigh> its so sad seeing people who hate teamplay playing games based around working as part of a team, hell they hate it so much they insult you for suggesting they should play as a team.

I guess some people want to ruin other peoples experience.

[ringring]

Conclusion: play as you like, but as your spawn hiding group becomes larger, the more likely it is that certain people will let you know that you all suck, and possibly try and "motivate" you out of spawn with C4. (not that I'd go that far)

And it's those people who are the problem players.

I don't disagree that you *should* recapture points. But mostly the situation is that you have been trying that already but without success because you're vastly outnumbered. If the situation is like that then why not get a few kills?

I also take issue with this concept of 'orders' from people who you don't know. Yep, orders are fine if they're the your platoon or squad leader but other than that they are nothing but requests or advice but never orders.

[Crator]

I think it's perfectly fine to let others know to push for a point if you're not completely outnumbered and have a chance. Sometimes I think it's the delivery that's all wrong. They'll degrade everyone that can hear them in prox chat saying they are dumb and they need to push out (but in more harsher, nagging, words). A simple, "There's only 2 minutes left on the hack people. Get the point back or we loose it." would suffice. Then take the lead and push out yourself. If nothing comes of it, take your losses and move on to the next location.

It's rare, but I've had a solo person spawn in at a location where we only have a few friendlies around and we are outnumbered pretty badly and this person feels the needs to tell us we need to push out and that we suck. To those people I'd say, get over yourself and stop using prox chat.

[Baneblade]

I TK little Napoleons all the time.

[BlaxicanX]

If you have the right to sit in the spawn room and be useless, then by that same token, other people certainly have the right to be angry about your uselessness. It's a 2-way street in a team-based game, which this is.

[ringring]

If you have the right to sit in the spawn room and be useless, then by that same token, other people certainly have the right to be angry about your uselessness. It's a 2-way street in a team-based game, which this is.
No they don't. But I grant them the right to ignore me.

[BlaxicanX]

No they don't have the right to be useless or no they don't have the right to be angry about other players being useless?

[Timithos]

Spawn design and mechanics facilitate camping on both sides of the fence; it's infuriating from either direction so I really don't blame players for doing it. Whether you dress it up as spawn rooms with teleporters to/from another location or gravity tunnels they all lead to the same end result.

But hey if the devs keep shoveling the same shit often enough it's got to be working as intended and correct. Right?

The tunnels at Amp Stations and Tech Planets DO lead to a better result when you spread egress points away from each other. Unfortunately this better result isn't used anywhere else. The teleporters on Esamir are a big failure because they don't place the defenders any closer to the capture point - just at a different far off angle.

[Timithos]

Spawn rooms being what they are I can hardly blame you or anyone else from wanting to stay inside where the chance of unwanted bodily ventilation is quite low.
Where I can put the blame is on the level design putting them outside in the open. Of course one can never remove spawn camping, but one can limit it.

Yes. And we keep telling SOE over and over on how to fix this, but they don't take the advice. Sink the spawn rooms underground, and provide multiple, spread-out points of tunnel & teleporter egress that deposit defenders closer to capture points, vehicle terminals and generators. But they don't listen. And Freyr Amp Station on Test went backwards to this.

[BeyondNinja]

Pushes from the spawn room in large fights need to be organised and done in waves, rather than everyone sitting in the spawn room camping indefinitely while losing the point, or everyone running out to get shot willy-nilly.

It's ok to sit in the spawn-room while regrouping or while supporting a push from behind (as a medic/engie etc) but sitting there indefinitely trying to get kills while the base is just lost doesn't help anyone.

The biggest problem imo of spawn room camping is just that its contagious. Once a small group of people start doing it, at least on NC, all the pubs become resigned to losing the base and won't leave the spawn room.

Either organise a group of friendlies to push out with you or fall back to a previous base to grab armour/sundies/air.

[BeyondNinja]

Spawn rooms being what they are I can hardly blame you or anyone else from wanting to stay inside where the chance of unwanted bodily ventilation is quite low.
Where I can put the blame is on the level design putting them outside in the open. Of course one can never remove spawn camping, but one can limit it.

The problem is that as a result of poor base design more than half the game ends up being spawn-room camping and being spawn-room camped.

Tbh I'd rather infinite TDM than infinite spawn-camping...

[synkrotron]

I've not forgotten this.

I'm reading all the posts, with interest :)

No real conclusion, but some points are well made, on both sides of the fence. And also points about how base design can affect our behaviour.

One thing that I have always thought, and this discussion polarises, is that Outfits can be key to having a good, and organised fight. Even the most useless player like myself can provide a decent level of support, providing the numbers are not totally against us.

[ringring]

No they don't have the right to be useless or no they don't have the right to be angry about other players being useless?
Well, everyone has a right to be useless.

The question no one has asked in this thread is, why didn't SOE make the spawns destructable and put them within another building so that the outside could be defensibile in the first place. Everything that happened just seems so obvious.

None of this happened in PS1, why did SOE think their new design was better (I assume they didn't think it was worse).

[Carbon Copied]

Well, everyone has a right to be useless.

The question no one has asked in this thread is, why didn't SOE make the spawns destructible and put them within another building so that the outside could be defensible in the first place. Everything that happened just seems so obvious.

None of this happened in PS1, why did SOE think their new design was better (I assume they didn't think it was worse).

Either that or they need to remove some spawn rooms from minor outposts - increase the value of the spawn locations themselves to be less throw-away and the inter-outpost vehicle/infantry battles en route.

Personally I'd opt for spawn rooms as they are at mid size bases of significance (large spawn room outposts), major POI's like the bio-lab/tech plant/Amp have contestable spawns as part of their layout (destructible spawns etc. however that comes with the caveat that they need to be a more complex interior structure to contest over) and the small inter-linked outposts are at least significantly reduced in number of spawn locations. Those that lose spawn capability could become... ANT silo's because who would've thought we'd be re-inventing the wheel a year and abit on huh?

To me that gives reason and value over all aspects of staying in and getting back into the fight as much as it reduces the same bullshit meat grind (that they said they don't like) from base to base.

[CraazyCanuck]

I've been all the above. I've been the guy spouting for peeps to get out of the spawn area, 'use the tunnels!', push out and focus on Alpha! Enemy sundy nw of spawn room outside walls! I've been the guy in spawn room when we are so horrible outnumbered that it is tough to turn away from all the easy headshots. I've also used the spawn shield to my advantage to weaken an enemies line and then attempt to punch through or distract them enough to get behind them with my infiltrator or my AV HA in an attempt to take out their sundy.

Frustration with people that remain in the spawn rooms is going to happen. At least if you care about winning or being effective. As one of those people I think that if those spawncampers would only attack, then maybe we could turn this around. Sometimes that one person can make the difference. Other times the battle is a lost cause and the smart thing to do would be to spawn a base or two back and prep it for defense. Overall the fault is poor base design that we have all preached from the beginning to be fixed but the developers prefer the thoughtless meat grind. If they didn't, then this would have ceased being a topic of discussion ages ago.