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Thread: Spitfires
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Old 2012-10-10, 01:11 PM   [Ignore Me] #65
theknits
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Re: Spitfires


Originally Posted by Crator View Post
The point here, I think, is that in PS1 people would lay mines and spits not to kill, but to warn. We had very large battles that went across large amounts of land. Lattice links to bases that provided benefits that you didn't really want to babysit while the battle went on at another base. So you setup CE around the important locations to warn you when it was being hit. That would allow you time to notify your empire that they needed to defend a key asset.
I'm all for some kind of sensor CE I just don't think it needs to shoot.

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
Other things about CE that haven't been mentioned, are "infiltrator control and deterent", creating a tactical and stealthy CE deactivating and dismantling game for the infiltrator. The interaction between an infil and enemies by means of enemy CE is often underestimated. CE that is set off alerts enemies to the presence of an enemy of sorts. An infiltrator therefore has to minimize the CE they set off. In PS2, there's really no CE to be concerned about, so you can get pretty much everywhere, even as a snipefil you can easily get close enough to use the sniperrifle as shotgun (as long as you're not NC since you don't get a stupidly high rof for followup shots). (Speaking of shotguns, I noticed they're going to give them to infils... -.-' ). Well placed CE to a player with thorough awareness of their placement (should be visible on the map) then is a detection amplifier and location indicator. Strangely only good players are able to link properly between missing CE and enemy movements, probably because the response to the CE disappearance has to be swift to make use of it and you have to be able to relate CE disappearing on the HUD with where in the world they disappeared and relate them to the alert indicators on the map.
Turrets did a lot better vs infiltrators in ps1 than its likely to do in ps2. In ps1 most infiltrators probably didn't carry around a response to ce in their tiny inventory's as they had a lot of other things that took priority. In ps2 however your response comes standard in the infil starter kit. See a turret? Just hammer a few rounds into it and move on. If your lucky and the engineer in charge of that particular ce is paying attention maybe he wanders over and you get to shoot him too.

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
Another thing you could do with mines and spitfires is create denial zones in order to funnel players to other areas. For instance, I now and then made funnels where people from a distance saw all kinds of motion sensors, mines and tank traps and then would assume there'd be mines there as well. Instead, I concentrated mine placement in those areas where a player in a vehicle would go to avoid triggering the CE or minimizing the amount of damage taken.
The thing is the primary reason people would avoid these ce fields is because it's just not very fun to blow them all up. Now sure you shouldn't be concerned with how much fun your enemy is having but it's certainly a concern for sony.

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
This is a very strategic use of CE that really outsmarts an enemy and requires both severe planning and behavioural observation, interpretation and prediction skills. Use of CE can therefore be a very mental skill that sorry to say, is far more advanced than shooting someone directly.
Regardless of where a turret is placed it never really outsmarts anyone. A turret begins shooting at you for a very limited number of reasons. One is when you enter into its operational range from outside that range. This is easily remedied by stepping back outside of that range and usually completely avoidable as your likely to see the turret in advance. Another one is if your in range and you step into the turrets line of sight. Well this method is more likely to surprise someone its still an easy fix. Just step back behind what was originally breaking its line of sight.

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
Is there risk involved in placing it? It's not a direct confrontation no, it's an ambush, but to be effective, you have to help steer the player with further bait and incentives by firing yourself, as well as maintaining the CE's field integrity and unpredictability, which requires your continued presence. Furthermore, to make such things work, you have to be in an area that's relatively deserted, so you're very prone to getting outnumbered and overwhelmed.
If your alone in an area that is relatively deserted the CE does nothing but mitigate risk. Now I understand that the entire reason your there to begin with is to place and maintain this CE but in a massively multiplayer game that pits players vs players vs players you should probably I don't know be working with other players?

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
CE can also be used as a distraction and decoy. Often I've placed CE fields (especially with Disruptor sensors) that lead enemies in completely wrong directions. Meaning they wasted valuable seconds looking for our AMS on the wrong side of a base before attempting a resecure, while we could make use of our actual AMS/Router combi that was left completely without CE. So yes, even harmless motion sensors and disruptor sensors can be used "out of the box" using reversed psychology to beat an enemy without making use of their intended function but simply pretending you're making use of the function.
Considering sunderers have no cloaking field its pretty easy to determine if you need to advance on a certain position or not. Any air can just fly over look down and see. Besides you don't even need turrets to try and fool people any form of CE will do.

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
Translating to PS2, giving players time to react or passively defend something without being present at all times would have helped greatly during the whack-a-mole period. In PS1 you could leave a tower unmanned but semi-defended. It wasn't impossible to get in, but it wasn't a no brainer either. In PS2, the moment an area is left alone, it's ripe for the plucking again. CE provides a manner of consolidation.
It is too easy to capture unmanned bases in ps2 as it stands right now. I'll give you that much. Obviously it shouldn't be hard but atm the defending faction just doesn't have a means of reacting fast enough. This isn't an issue to be solved by automated turrets though. They clearly need to either make it take longer to capture a base, give the defending faction more of a warning period, (something on the map or a popup at the top of the screen indicating that some people need to get to that base on the double) or make it faster/easier to get to the base in jeopardy so you can begin defending it. Preferably some combination of all 3 methods would go into fixing that problem.

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
Another thing you have to realise is that AI turrets are ineffective against moving targets at range, because they can't lead. Depends of course on projectile velocity (a continuous laser beam would therefore potentially be the most devastating even at low damage per second). Meanwhile, any turrets deployed by the engineer can not be used by anyone BUT the engineer, making the engineer, a support player, a stationary target that can't actually go out and support others if he has to go and man his own constructs.
I'm in favor of letting anyone use any manned turret. Maybe a short hacking period would be required to use manned turrets of another faction though.

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
What annoys me about CE right now is that it's pretty much 100% useless. You can't make a minefield, which is really the only way to use mines effectively. Single mines are useless in a 64km2 map as you have to KNOW precisely where an enemy will be without the enemy seeing the mine. That leaves very little options and a highly reduced chance of the mine actually hitting someone. Another thing is that placed mines disappear constantly. Not only do you not know how many you can place, but even the ones you PURCHASE at steep costs disappear randomly - possibly even when you change class. Really?! You make me buy expensive, but ineffective equipment and then before you even have the chance of making use of it, it disappears.
Well clearly CE should disappear if you change class. Otherwise any player that doesn't have CE deployed would be letting his faction down.
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