[Madcow]

Originally Posted by Warborn

Now that's interesting. I like to think that as something slightly more than retarded apes we're capable of grasping a point whether every nuance is covered to a nauseating deree. Which makes me really wonder why on earth you've chosen to focus on the smaller, less important sort of afterthought section I posted, defending your honor like some Internet samurai. Believe it or not, but talking about how you get kills really wasn't #1 on my agenda. The point I was making is that infiltrators will always have the same gripes provided they're going for the same stuff as the grunts are.

Internet samurai? Interesting. Pointless name calling, but interesting. Your point about kills is fairly moot, as I've already mentioned. I hack more towers, I hack more bases, I jack more vehicles than grunts. When I do focus on killing, I'm focusing on a completely different area and taking care of a task that the average grunt would not be able to do, by virtue of my ability to slip behind enemy lines which is much easier with minimum visibility.

Also, I never used an AMP as an infiltrator, so you're right, I don't have a lot of experience with the gun. But you know what? I kill lot's and lot's of infiltrators who use an AMP to run circles around me at close range, holding down the fire button. So, why do I need to have experience with an AMP as an infiltrator to know that infiltrators sometimes use AMPs and circle strafe around targets when I kill them every other day?

The only reason to ever circle strafe with an AMP is because your target is 2-3 bullets from death after you've unloaded a bunch into their back. The CoF on that gun while moving is large enough that you will miss the majority of shots while point blank. Basically, you're killing crappy infiltrators. I'm glad to see that, though, thin the herd a little bit and people will be looking for the rest of us a little less.

Not many people play cloakers because ultimately you're just killing infantry like the rest of us, only you have a lot of chance built into it, though that gives you an elitist feeling, as if you're better than everyone else because you can die really quickly due to bad luck, so it still holds some appeal. I do agree though that PS on the whole has a lot of skilless roles, like Reaver pilot and using strikers or other homing weapons.

I've played every role PS has to offer. I personally find that other play styles can not keep my attention and that I'm able to excel in them with significantly less brainpower and with less of what I would consider skill. Most roles reward twitch reflexes beyond anything else. However, this is not a blank statement to the whole of PS. I also think that Reaver pilots for the most part are skill-less killwhores. That being said, I've seen some great pilots and can certainly appreciate those that continue flying until they get to that point. The downside is that kills are so plentiful while flying that few challenge themselves to get to that point. I personally believe that infiltrator is one of the few PS roles that begins with a steep learning curve, which discourages many from taking up the suit for more than a week or so (I think this is a good thing, mind you). If you want to call that elitist, que sera.

As for Darklight being something for killwhoring, give me a break. What's the alternative, shoot at a barely visible, fast-moving wisp of a cloaker as it runs around blowing people up with boomers and grenades? It's either Darklight, or having to deal with a really annoying enemy with very few effective ways to fight back, and thus very few ways to defend yourself and avoid being killed by grenades or otherwise.

What's the alternative? You are aware we have no armor, right? You are aware 2 plasma grenades will usually do us in, although 1 will disclose our location while you riddle us with the gun of your choice, right? You're also aware that most spam-tastic weapons, led by the Lasher, get the chance to kill us just on the suspicion that we might be around? Those alternatives are just for the more patient cloakers, the less patient ones will disclose themselves and allow you to run them through anyhow. Considering how few bullets it takes to bring a cloaker down, that's a lot of alternatives before Dark Light is brought into the equation. I've said it before and I'll say it again, not everybody is using Dark Light to killwhore. Plenty are. If my saying that makes you feel guilty, you're either misreading what I'm typing or you've got some guilt going on. I won't pretend to know which it is, I don't know you in game at all. If people are using Dark Light because they caught some movement, good for them they deserve the kill. If people are running through random locations flickering the implant, they're killwhoring and bringing the general skill level of the game down.

The grunt comparison was to say that infiltrators are simply another type of fodder. This is a generalization of course and it may not apply to everyone, but the vast majority of infiltrators either run up to stationary targets, plant a boomer, and run, or they do a similar activity but use an AMP, and circle strafe instead. They're doing a grunt's job, just in a different method. Or if you want to nitpick, they're on par with snipers instead. Suffice to say though, even by your own admition cloakers spend most of their time killing people for no reason other than to grind the enemy through attrition. Doesn't matter how, but that's what they do, and it's also what grunts, or snipers, do.

I never said anything about killing enemies to grind them by attrition. When I get behind enemy lines and am able to destroy gimped vehicles that drop back to repair, I think that's an invaluable asset to my team. When I can mine Flails until they disengage and run to repair, my guys can get out of that tower that they couldn't run up the stairs of earlier. When I can knife Snipers or AV guys I'm allowing my team to have a better chance of resecuring a courtyard or base, or taking one. It's certainly possible to be very successful killing while also helping your empire. They don't have to be exclusive of one another.

Darklight might need some modification, but I would hate to see the developers focus on trying to make most cloakers just another group of killwhores, as you put it, alongside most grunts and most snipers. They already do have a lot of success in combat, as cloakers have been sharing without hesitation, and I don't see why they need to have even more if they're already so potent with DL as it is now.

At least you're kind of seeing what we're saying. Most of us aren't saying get rid of Dark Light. The changes I've talked about wouldn't give a massive advantage to cloakers. Honestly, I think the changes I've talked about put the implant where it was originally intended, but that's certainly open to argument.

And, changing DL for the worse will not increase the cat and mouse aspect. It'll be the same old thing, just now more boomers will be going off in spawn rooms, or by locked-down MAXs, or more spitfires will be popping up in the middle of infantry attacking a tower or enemy base. There is no cat and mouse to begin with, because the goal of most cloakers is simply to kill enemy soldiers. They're not trying to get somewhere Sam Fischer style and avoid detection, they're trying to run in, kill some doods, and respawn to do the same thing.

Any changes to Dark Light won't impact spawn room boomer runs as 95% of the people in a spawn room won't have the implant initialized yet anyhow. Regardless, spawn room boomering has slowed to a crawl since the surge nerf. I think you'll have trouble finding people to back you up on that one. Mining locked down MAXs hasn't slowed down a bit. The lockdown takes so long to get off I can still place a mine before the MAX could possibly see me in 3rd person, disengage and get far enough away. They've now changed it to 2 mines to kill a MAX and I would actually encourage them to change it to 3. Sorry if that messes up my killwhore rep.

The reason for not much cat and mouse now is specifically the way the implant plays. If an infiltrator is going to kill, he has to commit early and go in quick. The grunt has nothing to discourage him from using his implant carte blanche, so either way it goes it's going to end quickly. Now if the implant was to lock on for a period of time, I could move about with significantly more freedom from random 'flicker' deaths. If I were to make a bonehead move, somebody would see me and light me up and I'd deserve that. If somebody were to see me in the field, I might have opportunity to try and draw the blind man into fire knowing he was committed to searching just for me for a few moments. Much more cat and mouse.

A Darklight change wouldn't make that much different....If Darklight were nerfed, they'd be doing it even more effectively, and as a grunt I would really rather not be fighting an army of cloakers primarily.

Do you really thing such a minor change would create an army of infiltrators? Maybe at first, but people would quickly drop it when they realize it's not so easy as they like to pretend. However, if you think the change wouldn't make it that much different (as you say), why should you care if the change(s) were to be implemented? If things wouldn't be much different on your grunt end, why should it bother you that those of us on the other end are asking for it?