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Old 2012-06-05, 08:58 PM   [Ignore Me] #31
Zekeen
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Re: Anyone else worried about the Max?


I'll keep this simple.

I liked the MAXes. Tough, not too tough, but more than a presence on the battlefield.

Also, there may be mods later for faster, more mobile, jumping, more armored, or altogether tougher MAXes. So don't fret if it's not quite your style.
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Old 2012-06-05, 09:01 PM   [Ignore Me] #32
Haro
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Re: Anyone else worried about the Max?


Originally Posted by 2coolforu View Post
MAX's seemed fine to me, the only time they ever dropped was when they were being engaged by multiple enemies and and another MAX. In all the battles they appeared very tough, I mean in the kill-cam a Fission missle did 25% damage to one, that's a hell of a lot of hitpoints.

If anything they seemed rather overpowered, as the game went along the number of MAX units went up and up. They can turn just as fast as normal infantry which I think should be changed, they run as fast as a sprinting normal troops and can drop out of sprint in about half a second.

Indoors they were tearing through normal troops, infact I don't really see any normal infantry having a use indoors if MAX's are as powerful as shown. They didn't really seem to have a countermeasure other than getting Lib'd outside or getting taken on by 4-5 normal infantry/other MAX's.

But it is alpha and all, I think they just have too much maneuverability, too much damage and too much health. They should either be tough and low damage or moderate damage and moderate HP. At the moment they seem to have the best weapons, the best health and don't really pay for it all that much in maneuverability.
This is a good point, but I think it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. This was a largely uncoordinated demo, with players often playing for kills rather than captures, which is totally fine in this case. I saw lots of players try to capture points in Max armor, only to fruitlessly stare at consoles. Also, I think the E3 setting for maxes in any vehicle also really broke balance, with it becoming the standard for most players. Maxes were really rather OP in this demo, but I don't think that will carry over even if that demo had been expanded to several bases and the proper max laws were observed a bit more carefully.

I saw the TR use their maxes very well, often in pairs securing points while lighter classes captured them. I think that's why they dominated so much later on in the podcast. I think there's value to maxes being powerful, but like with larger tanks, they can't take the abuse like they used to. I think they will need to be a force used with caution, because they can be lost easily if used carelessly.
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Old 2012-06-05, 09:01 PM   [Ignore Me] #33
Knightwyvern
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Re: Anyone else worried about the Max?


Originally Posted by Zekeen View Post
Also, there may be mods later for faster, more mobile, jumping, more armored, or altogether tougher MAXes. So don't fret if it's not quite your style.
Great point. Don't like it? Change it. Who knows, perhaps there will be AP ammo as abilities for classes to allow them to do more damage to MAX units. Makes a lot of sense.
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Old 2012-06-05, 09:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #34
Hmr85
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Re: Anyone else worried about the Max?


I was worried at first mainly because as soon as I flipped the feed on I saw a guy mow down two of them...but after watching for awhile you could definitely tell that maxs looked pretty spot on from the more competent players. If anything almost a tad too strong. I'll reserve judgment for beta for when I can get my hands on the game and give them a go.
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Old 2012-06-05, 09:16 PM   [Ignore Me] #35
2coolforu
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Re: Anyone else worried about the Max?


Originally Posted by Haro View Post
This is a good point, but I think it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. This was a largely uncoordinated demo, with players often playing for kills rather than captures, which is totally fine in this case. I saw lots of players try to capture points in Max armor, only to fruitlessly stare at consoles. Also, I think the E3 setting for maxes in any vehicle also really broke balance, with it becoming the standard for most players. Maxes were really rather OP in this demo, but I don't think that will carry over even if that demo had been expanded to several bases and the proper max laws were observed a bit more carefully.

I saw the TR use their maxes very well, often in pairs securing points while lighter classes captured them. I think that's why they dominated so much later on in the podcast. I think there's value to maxes being powerful, but like with larger tanks, they can't take the abuse like they used to. I think they will need to be a force used with caution, because they can be lost easily if used carelessly.
The problem was I rarely saw MAX units getting killed by 1-2 infantry unless they were really terrible, however even obviously competent players were quickly dispatched against MAX units in situations where a MAX really should lose e.g. outdoors and from flanking attacks.

The reason was because the MAX unit has no turn rate limiter like it did in Planetside, that was the main 'teamwork' aspect of a MAX as it needed troops covering the flank, or a few MAX units coordinating to keep the arcs of fire covered. Now MAX units gain all the bonuses with none of that tradeoff seeing as the units we saw had some kind of regenerating ability and only the medic class has the ability to heal at the moment. The only thing they really sacrifice is the ability to hack and the ability to commandeer vehicles.

I mean, yes MAX's should win a straight up fight against an infantryman but they shouldn't out damage, have more toughness and have equal maneuverability. The MAX worked well as a slow, tough bulletsponge with a damage output pretty much equal to that of the infantry - perhaps even lower damage than the heavy infantry weapons. They were for breaking defences and taking the major hurt while the faster infantry moved in and flanked. Right now they seem to be a killwhores dream as they do more damage, take more punishment and have no restriction on aiming/speed.

As for alpha, I'm just pointing out the stuff that I think will be unbalanced when it comes to real play.
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Old 2012-06-05, 09:16 PM   [Ignore Me] #36
IMMentat
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Re: Anyone else worried about the Max?


the shield regen didn't bother me it took a good 20 seconds to trigger and MAX units seme to have a fairly tight ammo reserve so unsupported they will get out manoevered and outsustained.

the MAX units are also slower moving than all the opther troop types so indirect fire should be effective.

Last edited by IMMentat; 2012-06-05 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 2012-06-05, 09:29 PM   [Ignore Me] #37
Haro
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Re: Anyone else worried about the Max?


Originally Posted by 2coolforu View Post
The problem was I rarely saw MAX units getting killed by 1-2 infantry unless they were really terrible, however even obviously competent players were quickly dispatched against MAX units in situations where a MAX really should lose e.g. outdoors and from flanking attacks.

The reason was because the MAX unit has no turn rate limiter like it did in Planetside, that was the main 'teamwork' aspect of a MAX as it needed troops covering the flank, or a few MAX units coordinating to keep the arcs of fire covered. Now MAX units gain all the bonuses with none of that tradeoff seeing as the units we saw had some kind of regenerating ability and only the medic class has the ability to heal at the moment. The only thing they really sacrifice is the ability to hack and the ability to commandeer vehicles.

I mean, yes MAX's should win a straight up fight against an infantryman but they shouldn't out damage, have more toughness and have equal maneuverability. The MAX worked well as a slow, tough bulletsponge with a damage output pretty much equal to that of the infantry - perhaps even lower damage than the heavy infantry weapons. They were for breaking defences and taking the major hurt while the faster infantry moved in and flanked. Right now they seem to be a killwhores dream as they do more damage, take more punishment and have no restriction on aiming/speed.

As for alpha, I'm just pointing out the stuff that I think will be unbalanced when it comes to real play.
No no, I agree, I think we could very easily see some more tuning, and I'd be fine with that. I was just pointing that there are many more strategic factors that will help limit max usage that were absent from the game. Like I said before, I think it's really hard to judge balance just by watching people play, but it did seem that they played very fast and, when used properly, they were absolutely beast. I wouldn't exactly mind that if they had other limitations, like a cooldown on respawn or limitations on where they can spawn. Once we also see their larger mobility get taken away when they're limited to normal vehicle rules, we may find that they balance out a bit more.

I just find that the scenario of the demo itself (not really a whole lot of impetus for capture, relatively small playing area, lax rules) may have benefited the max more than the actual gameplay balance itself. We'll only know for sure in beta (which can't come soon enough.)
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Old 2012-06-05, 09:32 PM   [Ignore Me] #38
GreatMazinkaise
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Re: Anyone else worried about the Max?


Well yeah, obviously they're playing Team Deathmatch mode... the MAX suit is going to excel at that sort of gameplay. Especially since it's traditionally the easiest "class" to play.

Maybe tomorrow some of those noobs will actually pull AV or use grenades/boomers.
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Old 2012-06-05, 09:36 PM   [Ignore Me] #39
Fanglord
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Re: Anyone else worried about the Max?


Though from the footage, kinda emphasises the need for at least a clunky max melee attack. All those max's runnin round with no ammo :s
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Old 2012-06-05, 09:42 PM   [Ignore Me] #40
CutterJohn
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Re: Anyone else worried about the Max?


Originally Posted by NewSith View Post
Like removed armor regen?
To heck with that. It does not need to be the only unit in the game incapable of effecting self repairs. It was like that in PS1 as well, and was just as ridiculous.
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Old 2012-06-05, 09:44 PM   [Ignore Me] #41
Knightwyvern
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Re: Anyone else worried about the Max?


Originally Posted by Fanglord View Post
Though from the footage, kinda emphasises the need for at least a clunky max melee attack. All those max's runnin round with no ammo :s
.
But that is what teamwork and Light Assaults are for
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Old 2012-06-05, 09:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #42
IMMentat
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Re: Anyone else worried about the Max?


just means the light assault were failing to fulfil their support role
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Old 2012-06-05, 10:43 PM   [Ignore Me] #43
Xyntech
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Re: Anyone else worried about the Max?


Originally Posted by Fanglord View Post
Though from the footage, kinda emphasises the need for at least a clunky max melee attack. All those max's runnin round with no ammo :s
.
Didn't Purrrfectstorm confirm that MAXes have a melee attack in todays live stream?
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Old 2012-06-05, 10:46 PM   [Ignore Me] #44
GreatMazinkaise
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Re: Anyone else worried about the Max?


Originally Posted by Xyntech View Post
Didn't Purrrfectstorm confirm that MAXes have a melee attack in todays live stream?
I believe so... I think the stuck AA MAX that dropped from the bomber was actually swiping at the air.
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Old 2012-06-05, 10:46 PM   [Ignore Me] #45
Zekeen
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Re: Anyone else worried about the Max?


Originally Posted by Xyntech View Post
Didn't Purrrfectstorm confirm that MAXes have a melee attack in todays live stream?
I saw em swing several times. One tried to melee a freshly spawned (and locked and loaded) MAX, which didn't end well (flamethrower)
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