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Old 2012-08-24, 09:15 AM   [Ignore Me] #1
Jokurr
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TKers, griefers, and other trolls


Hello.

Lately I've been thinking about how easy TKers and griefers might have it in this game and for me it has become a bit of a concern, especially after watching Hamma's live stream from a couple of nights ago. The F2P structure of this game worries me in particular. In PS1, you had to pay lots of money to play the game, and if you decided to do nothing but grief, your account would be banned/suspended. If you wanted to get around that, you had to pay a lot money to create a new account, whcih works as a good deterrent as most griefers aren't willing to pay money just to get their kicks.

With this game, it seems like the penalty would be less severe. Even if your account is banned or suspended, what's to stop you from simply creating a new account and being in game again a short while later? Griefers can be surprisingly persistent, if you think most won't be bothered to keep creating new accounts... think again. The only way around this that I can see is using IP bans rather than account bans. Does anyone know if SOE plans to use a system like this, or have some other system that will really deter people from griefing?

Last edited by Jokurr; 2012-08-24 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 2012-08-24, 09:26 AM   [Ignore Me] #2
Comet
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Re: TKers, griefers, and other trolls


They will have active staffers watching this issue and I am sure that if TKing becomes a legit problem where people are doing it on purpose (mistakes happen - Liberator anyone?), they will rework how the system is.

I wouldn't worry about it is the short of the long really.
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Old 2012-08-24, 01:48 PM   [Ignore Me] #3
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Re: TKers, griefers, and other trolls


To be fair, I only watched Hamma's stream for 40 minutes, and I saw one incident that he complained about for 20 minutes. So I'm not sure if its a real problem or if it was an accident.

I really think they can take an average of incidental fratracide amongst the player base and stiffen the punishments for above average incidents.

Perhaps if you slow your rate of cert generation down if you have too many team kills, perhaps even stop cert generation if you exceed a daily limit of incidents?

I wouldn't worry about trying to add the stigma of free to play, players all being dbag griefers, truth is, the massive scope of this games co-op will run those people off faster than you get with mmo's geared for individual minded players(wz's, battlegrounds, e-sports, and the lot) -plus swtor is pay to play, and that was by far the crappiest community I've ever witnessed(I did play a pvp server, but it was still bad)

They will be here at launch no doubt, but six months into the game they will have been ran off.

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Old 2012-08-24, 02:00 PM   [Ignore Me] #4
Mordelicius
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Re: TKers, griefers, and other trolls


Originally Posted by Jokurr View Post
Hello.

Lately I've been thinking about how easy TKers and griefers might have it in this game and for me it has become a bit of a concern, especially after watching Hamma's live stream from a couple of nights ago. The F2P structure of this game worries me in particular. In PS1, you had to pay lots of money to play the game, and if you decided to do nothing but grief, your account would be banned/suspended. If you wanted to get around that, you had to pay a lot money to create a new account, whcih works as a good deterrent as most griefers aren't willing to pay money just to get their kicks.

With this game, it seems like the penalty would be less severe. Even if your account is banned or suspended, what's to stop you from simply creating a new account and being in game again a short while later? Griefers can be surprisingly persistent, if you think most of think that most won't be bothered to keep creating new accounts... think again. The only way around this that I can see is using IP bans rather than account bans. Does anyone know if SOE plans to use a system like this, or have some other system that will really deter people from griefing?
I called this weeks ago. This is standard fare in RvR mmos so noone should be surprised. This is their second biggest threat to the game next to Hacking.

The effect of this griefing will even be magnified compared to some standard RvR game since it's friendly-fire enabled. Normally, player flag-up to enable same faction pk, so there is usually a warning flag you can get attacked.
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Old 2012-08-24, 02:01 PM   [Ignore Me] #5
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Re: TKers, griefers, and other trolls


Don't worry, it will be dealt with. That's not saying you won't go through a bit of a thrashing, but in the long run, it will all workout for the best.
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Old 2012-08-24, 02:09 PM   [Ignore Me] #6
sgtbjack
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Re: TKers, griefers, and other trolls


Originally Posted by Mordelicius View Post
I called this weeks ago. This is standard fare in RvR mmos so noone should be surprised. This is their second biggest threat to the game next to Hacking.

The effect of this griefing will even be magnified compared to some standard RvR game since it's friendly-fire enabled. Normally, player flag-up to enable same faction pk, so there is usually a warning flag you can get attacked.
I don't believe its the second, third, fourth or twentieth problem next to hacking. This is not a threat to the game, it really isn't. Unless people get turned off if it happens to them once. This playstyle is not as productive as it is with everyother mmo/first person shooter out there.

With in game chat connecting everyone on the server, griefers will be pinpointed much faster than you get with smaller group oriented mmo's. I really think hamma over reacted a tad in his stream. Not saying anything bad about hamma, but it happened once, and of course there is going to be a little griefing for live streamers. Hell, channel two news was doing a live broadcast on the bridge here in oregon and I drove by them 4 times hitting puddles lol.

I do agree that they can stiffen up friendly fire penalties a little bit, but I absolutely don't want friendly fire disabled.
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Old 2012-08-24, 02:12 PM   [Ignore Me] #7
vVRedOctoberVv
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Re: TKers, griefers, and other trolls


I concur with Sgt above me.

I completely oppose disabling FF. FF results in completely different player behavior than when FF is disabled. You gain a little, and lose a lot.
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Old 2012-08-24, 02:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #8
Rico Suave
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Re: TKers, griefers, and other trolls


Originally Posted by sgtbjack View Post
To be fair, I only watched Hamma's stream for 40 minutes, and I saw one incident that he complained about for 20 minutes. So I'm not sure if its a real problem or if it was an accident.

I really think they can take an average of incidental fratracide amongst the player base and stiffen the punishments for above average incidents.

Perhaps if you slow your rate of cert generation down if you have too many team kills, perhaps even stop cert generation if you exceed a daily limit of incidents?

I wouldn't worry about trying to add the stigma of free to play, players all being dbag griefers, truth is, the massive scope of this games co-op will run those people off faster than you get with mmo's geared for individual minded players(wz's, battlegrounds, e-sports, and the lot) -plus swtor is pay to play, and that was by far the crappiest community I've ever witnessed(I did play a pvp server, but it was still bad)

They will be here at launch no doubt, but six months into the game they will have been ran off.
Just so you know, In the last 10~15 minutes, he got tk'd about 4-5 times, 2-3 by the same guy chasing him around. And I'm sure they'll have something in place, I'm not to worried
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Old 2012-08-24, 02:20 PM   [Ignore Me] #9
Mordelicius
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Re: TKers, griefers, and other trolls


Originally Posted by sgtbjack View Post
I don't believe its the second, third, fourth or twentieth problem next to hacking. This is not a threat to the game, it really isn't. Unless people get turned off if it happens to them once. This playstyle is not as productive as it is with everyother mmo/first person shooter out there.

With in game chat connecting everyone on the server, griefers will be pinpointed much faster than you get with smaller group oriented mmo's. I really think hamma over reacted a tad in his stream. Not saying anything bad about hamma, but it happened once, and of course there is going to be a little griefing for live streamers. Hell, channel two news was doing a live broadcast on the bridge here in oregon and I drove by them 4 times hitting puddles lol.

I do agree that they can stiffen up friendly fire penalties a little bit, but I absolutely don't want friendly fire disabled.
I'm not saying FF should be removed. It should be monitored closely and the ALTS should be tracked to their main account and have them all banned.
-There will be players using multiple accounts with multiple computers
-There will be players using big transports only to fly all over then crash it
-There will be players infiltrating factions and basically sabotage operations
-There will be players giving out wrong information on purpose
-There will be players "leading" mission with the intention for it to fail.
-There will be players rolling alt guilds just to clog up the other faction's numbers
etc. etc.
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Old 2012-08-24, 02:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #10
sgtbjack
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Re: TKers, griefers, and other trolls


Originally Posted by Rico Suave View Post
Just so you know, In the last 10~15 minutes, he got tk'd about 4-5 times, 2-3 by the same guy chasing him around. And I'm sure they'll have something in place, I'm not to worried
Ahh, up to the point I had watched(which is why I stated I only watched about 40 minutes, cause I didn't want to be a liar lol) I only saw the one liberator fly into his galaxy lol

Which is good, cause aircraft is the best way to grief in this game, but with the resource cap you can't just keep respawning air vehicles to crash into people. I like that they have a resource cap, cause if they didn't you could save up 1 million resources and just crash planes into friendly's all day which would be a piss poor experience.

I'm not sure what the punishment is for team killing is, but since I see warnings every time it happens I can only speculate that they do have some sort of punishment in place(warnings with out spanking never teach kids to behave lol)

I still think the biggest thing to prohibit tk'ing is the in game voice and coordination. If Dbag-69 keeps killing people on his own faction, it will only take minutes to send his name up the chain of command, which can then inform all players on the server to ghost Dbag-69 if they see him, which leaves Dbag-69 raging that he can only play the game for 10 seconds before hes recognized and killed.

My biggest point of contention, is that its beta, so theres no long term ill effects to being a d-bag, but once the game starts all d-bag's will be ran off within months.

COD, and BF and the like focus on small group team play, so if you feel like just being a cock bag, who cares, you hardly ever see the same people anyway, and you don't lose anything for it. This game is different.

If you play other mmo's, like swtor and the like, you can just run your mouth 24 7 because again, no one can do anything about it. There was a d-bag on our server who gummed the chat forum up calling people noobs, and trash for 8 hours a day, but nobody could do anything. If I could've same faction hunted him, I would have griefed the hell out of him. This game, well you can clean trash like that out.

I really do think that tk'ing and being a dbag should lose you certs, making you crappier and crappier
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Old 2012-08-24, 02:35 PM   [Ignore Me] #11
Hosp
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Re: TKers, griefers, and other trolls


(1) Forgive
(2) Flag [for TK]

In conjunction with the old grief system, allow X amt. of flags = auto-lock for 5-mins meanwhile grief still generates normally. Auto-lock slows ability to grief until GMs "Investigate".

To prevent people from abusing the flag system (ie running into friendly fire) limit amount of flags per person to 3 per hour.

Allow Outfits to toggle ability for FF to generate grief from other outfit members. (optional)

New Accounts under L5 cannot Flag. New Accounts will also have increased grief gain. 5x normal gain, and will lose 1x gain until L5 at which point they have the same grief gain everyone else has.

* All values are example values for my concept grief system. Most importantly, STOP CRYING ABOUT IT B4 RELEASE.
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Old 2012-08-24, 02:39 PM   [Ignore Me] #12
sgtbjack
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Re: TKers, griefers, and other trolls


Originally Posted by Mordelicius View Post
I'm not saying FF should be removed. It should be monitored closely and the ALTS should be tracked to their main account and have them all banned.
-There will be players using multiple accounts with multiple computers
-There will be players using big transports only to fly all over then crash it
-There will be players infiltrating factions and basically sabotage operations
-There will be players giving out wrong information on purpose
-There will be players "leading" mission with the intention for it to fail.
-There will be players rolling alt guilds just to clog up the other faction's numbers
etc. etc.
I know it can happen, and I'm not disagreeing with you on what dbags can do, I'm just arguing that the game already has systems in place to deal with most of these issues. Those systems will more than likely be improved as well.

-multiple accounts-SOE could track this, I don't know if they are, but I don't think you can have two factions on one server if I'm not mistaken.
-big transports for crashing-if you crash once, because of the resource cap they have to go play for awhile to be able to buy another one. For beta and streaming shenanigans they don't really care, but in game, its just a dumb strategy and ends up screwing your own gameplay up. This is why I oppose those threads where "driver only" players want the cap removed so they can spawn vehicles over and over again
-if they infiltrate your faction, they have to do it from another server. Why play on another server to screw over a faction you don't even play against?
-wrong info-lol, alot of nice people will give out wrong info, just because their not that bright lol, but I see your point
-if leaders lead missions with the intent to fail, they get nothing for it. Maybe if leaders lost certs for having thier squad fail a mission might help? Not an issue for me, as I play with friends, and I trust them(maybe not my brother, hes an idiot)
-alt guilds-they would have to run on another server, so they wouldn't be able to help their mains in anyway?
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Old 2012-08-24, 02:52 PM   [Ignore Me] #13
Comet
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Re: TKers, griefers, and other trolls


They had FF on is PS1 and all is well. The griefer system works and if things get out of hand for whatever reason, they just tweak the system.
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Old 2012-08-24, 03:03 PM   [Ignore Me] #14
sgtbjack
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Re: TKers, griefers, and other trolls


Originally Posted by DjEclipse View Post
HA! I love you bro.
I'm a really nice guy, but that felt like my 15 minutes of fame, so I had to go for it lol
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Old 2012-08-24, 03:20 PM   [Ignore Me] #15
Comet
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Re: TKers, griefers, and other trolls


And as far as the Hamma stream goes, the bad TKing came at the end when one guy killed him 3 times inside of a minute or two. That kind of TKing should be recognized by the system as it's the same victim in such a short period of time and apply a stiff penalty.
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