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Old 2004-03-12, 11:31 PM   [Ignore Me] #61
Incompetent
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Half you people don't know that 2/3rd's of the people that use surge have no idea they are warp'n till the hate tells start flow'n, Don't blame them blame the network code and such for not being able to keep up.
So we should just leave it broken because people aren't doing it on purpose?
The Jackhammer is not the Only weapon but most use it, as same applies for the Vs and their Lashers and the TR and their MCG's. NC just keep get'tn hit with n3rf's, sooner or later we are all gonna be shoot'n n3rf guns.
Yes, allow me to cry for the poor pitiful NC, if it keeps going the way it looks like it will you might get a taste of what it's like too be the other 2 empires bitches for a while like everyone else has.
People sure up against me all the time sure they ware but your dump enough to follow it, when they warp the end up and the same position so just wait for em there. Because you lapspics can't get decent kills and complain don't mean u have to ruin the game for the rest of us
If i'm reading that correctly (and i have no idea if i am) it says something to the effect of "You suck cause you can't kill surgiles," to which the appropriate reply is "You suck because you can't kill without surgile." That is possibly the worst arguement either way, and simply reveals that you don't have any better defense.
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Old 2004-03-13, 12:26 AM   [Ignore Me] #62
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Y couldnt they just make the surge drain stamina much faster while you have a weapon out? And another thing, did they ever think of making every new idea or change into a poll that everyone had to answer before they played PS thus get everyone's opinions and not just the ones who complain on the boards.
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Old 2004-03-13, 12:36 AM   [Ignore Me] #63
BDMJ
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I tend to use surge because it is undeniably effective. This is not a nerf caused by its performance, this is a nerf caused by the Devs' inability to reduce the warping through netcode changes. I object to it for this reason. I think this is the latest in a series of shoddy changes made because the devs' are unable to get engine and netcode bugs worked out properly.

1) Hart exploit bug

2) quad shot "fix"

and now the 3) surge nerf

They make these quick fixes because they clearly don't have the resources to deal with such problems in a timely manner. Why is it taking so long to fix the router bug, and why did it take so long to fix the corpse bug, the vanguard cannon clipping bug, the cloaked rexo bug, or the door bug? The answer is they just don't have the man power to add content, fix bugs, or do either quickly.

I'm not going to quit, I will still enjoy the game, and I recognize the limitations of the dev team based on their responses to earlier issues. Of course I will be frustrated, but the fun I derive from playing far outweighs my frustration.
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Old 2004-03-13, 12:39 AM   [Ignore Me] #64
Krinsath
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*sigh* Here we go again...

The surge change is long overdue. Too long in fact. The reason we hear so much whining is due to the large number of players who left BECAUSE of surge, so that now mostly it's the ones who abused it that are left...and now they are angry because their shiny toy is getting taken away.

Here's a clue for those who need one: PlanetSide is, and always has been, about team tactics. Is it possible to be a lone player? In some circumstances, yes...but there will be a myriad of situations that you're ill-equipped to handle. The problem with Surge is that it allowed one player to be EVERYTHING. HA has the ability to do some serious damage to people, pack in a decimator for any MAX you encounter and you can go on a killing spree all on your own, no teamwork required. That, my friends, is the true BS of this equation.

Simply making a no jumping fix still leaves unresolved the problems of inclines. Since EVERY base and EVERY tower is multiple levels, the surgile still has the ability to create an easy warp effect. Combine this with their rather cheesy use of 3rd person to see around corners and they're having their cake and eating it too. Not only can you see the enemy before they can see you, when you DO attack them, there's no chance in hell they can hit you. That problem would still be unfixed by simply taking out the jump.

It's easy to assume the cavalier attitude of "Well, it's your machine...obviously" but guess what...they're paying just as much money as you are for this game. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a high-end machine and Sony would be cutting themselves off at the knees to just go "oh well...sucks to be you guys!" So unless you're planning on upgrading every paying customer to a "good" machine out of your own pocket, STFU about machine specs. If Sony wants to revise their specs (which they should, since they're no where near accurate anymore) and these people no longer meet them, that's one thing. So long as they meet the recommended specs, BS like surge-warping should not be the defining characteristic of their gameplay experience.

Surge was an exploit that was abused heavily. As publicized as it's been for the past few months, there was no way in hell that people didn't know what they were doing and why. When you have a substantial part of your playerbase doing the same thing and having large successes as a result of a well-documented bug, it ceases to be a bug and becomes an exploit. How would the surgers feel if a Jammer grenade killed anyone with Surge active through a bug? They would be mightily pissed if someone just loaded a thumper full of Jammer grenades and went to town. The Devs tried measures to fix the problem without affecting the way the implant did it's job, it didn't work...now they're doing the most effective fix to keep things under control. The Devs did NOT say that this was a permanent thing (though I really don't care if it is or not), and this may be the band-aid to keep the community balanced while the very complex issue underneath is worked on more fully. We could very well see a return to surging with weapon drawn at some point in the future...no Dev has yet said to the contrary, people just wanted to jump to conclusions and start up the flame wars.

Is this a fairly large nerf to the JH community? If you used surge to use the weapon effectively then yes, you're screwed. Many people found that you can just use the JH with appropriate tactics and it works just as well. The JH itself is no less effective, just a crutch to make it so you didn't need support to get you into a position to use it has been removed. For pilots who get shot down, the JH is no longer a weapon they can carry around...if something shot you down though, chances are it was a MAX or a Vehicle...so you'd really want AV at that moment anyway. Being a downed pilot sucks in general, so I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for not being able to surge offensively...if anything that surge should be getting your ass back to base.

The TR are also severely guilty of surgile, and I can't say that I'll be sorry to see them go either. As much as the NC complain, at least their weapons are somewhat effective. The Cycler and MCG are capable weapons...and that ends the list of useful TR weapons. Yes, the Prowler is a nice tank...except that for 10 Prowlers you'll be facing 15 Mags or Vans...same deal with the Marauder. The MAXes are still pathetic. So losing anything that gives killing ability is a bigger nerf to the TR than it could ever be to the NC. Yes, your HA doesn't work so well now...your MA and AV and MAXes and tanks are still *quite* effective.

The VS...well, the less we say about them the better. Hope they're enjoying their brief time in the sun. Fix the damned Pulsar...what good is a short-ranged rifle?

Infiltrators: Yes, the surge is somewhat of a nerf to you. 2.6 will also see the sizable BUFFS with the invisibility factor and the damned gauge being accurate. Sure, they're not so much buffs as long overdue bug fixes, but it's not like you're being crippled. VS infiltrators won't notice much of a change, but damned if the TR and NC ones won't. And if you're a VS infiltrator and feel like complaining...go get five of your Barney Buddies to drop the Lasher...then you can complain
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Old 2004-03-13, 12:49 AM   [Ignore Me] #65
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Originally Posted by Incompetent
Seriously, by the reactions in both this thread and the OF, it is so easy to tell why the devs don't tell us shit. One god damn change gets posted and everyone is pronouncing the fucking apocalypse.

/signed
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Old 2004-03-13, 12:51 AM   [Ignore Me] #66
Krinsath
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Originally Posted by BDMJ
They make these quick fixes because they clearly don't have the resources to deal with such problems in a timely manner. Why is it taking so long to fix the router bug, and why did it take so long to fix the corpse bug, the vanguard cannon clipping bug, the cloaked rexo bug, or the door bug? The answer is they just don't have the man power to add content, fix bugs, or do either quickly.
They make the quick fixes because PlanetSide isn't a calculator where if something doesn't add right, it's straightforward to go into the code and fix it. There is a massive amount of code written by a myriad number of people, some who don't even work there anymore. Sometimes a quick fix to get basic functionality working while underlying issues are examined in depth is far preferrable to just leaving something broken in the product.

Nothing in the computer industry is more difficult than trying to work on a system that somebody else designed. Sure, there are conventions on how things are supposed to be done, but to be completely honest, every system no matter how "to convention" it is carries with it a bit of the programmer who made it. Working on someone else's code takes about three times as long as you have to walk yourself through the coding structures...this is most definately magnified in an application of PlanetSide's complexity.

Now the door bug, for instance, has been explained many times. It was not *a* door bug. It was actually a dozen different bugs that had the same symptom. That's why they'd release a fix, but things still wouldn't work like they should. The bug they worked on HAD been fixed, you were seeing a different one. Kind of like the common cold has the same symptoms, but there are several million different viruses that cause it.

Just because something seems like a simple fix doesn't mean it is. First you have to know what module is breaking, then you need to analyze WHY it's breaking, then you have to devise the code to fix it, then you need to check and make sure that it fixed it, then you have to check to make sure it didn't break anything else. Consider that one bug may involve going to five or six different modules to verify that they aren't causing problems and that you can't have TOO many programmers working on the same project (too many cooks spoil the soup) and time quickly adds up.

Despite popular belief, the Devs are not on the job 16 hours a day...unlike some of you people who play this game evidently.
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Old 2004-03-13, 01:38 AM   [Ignore Me] #67
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First of all - lets keep the name calling and flames out of this - it serves no purpose.

Second to those who are saying, just fix the netcode. Understand that they have been trying to do just that, but we're not dealing with the average FPS game here. You don't have to worry about 8 or 16 objects, the netcode has to deal with 600 objects and all of them with varies states of connectivity and hardware. Quite frankly it's a bloody miracle the game runs at all with these kinds of numbers. There are physical limitations of the code - there is a top end of "trackability" and after numerous attempts by the programmers to find an effective fix, I believe the decission was made to do "something do-able" at least for now - I'm sure the programmers are CONTINUIOUSLY looking to improve the upper end and make it work better but you have to realize there are LIMITS to what can be done. You can't compare this to other FPS games as there ARE NO OTHER FPS GAMES on this scale! I'm a little ticked off at the OF posts by users who call the programmers lazy or too un-caring to fix it the way they "think" it can be fixed.

I'm sure the no-jump was considered but there are other problems to this besides jumping and I'm not convinced that would effect a complete solution. Apparently neither are the devs. I realize this invalidates certain tactics - so have other changes and most times players are clever enough to develop alternate ways to play. I know those NC who use the JH and surge up to their enemies are distressed. I suggest you develop a way to draw the enemy in to you or use a weapon better suited to range until it's time to pull the trusty JH. It doesn't have to be all one way. Rather than whining for another balance change, develop a tactic that allows you to use the weapon as is.

The OF is split about 50-50 on this as far as posts go - however, there are far less intelligent arguments on the negative side in total. Some folks have made construtive and well thought out negative comments - I applaud them - That's what community involvement is all about. To those who are "quitting this f*%#ing game" and "this is the stupidest idea ever" and "you suck devs" can kindly exit stage left (and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out). We dont need you if thats the only way you have to offer your opinion. You are most likely the players who have exploited this at every oppertunity and have forced this change to begin with.

So positive or negative, lets keep it civil and let's be contructive in what we have to say. I assure you one well thought out thread will carry FAR more weight in the eyes of the dev team than 50 flames with nothing but insults and threats to cancel.
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Old 2004-03-13, 01:59 AM   [Ignore Me] #68
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This sucks. I hate the whole idea. Surge is fine right now the warping thing has stopped and only a few use it. Only constructive critism will help to get this idea out now.
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Old 2004-03-13, 05:34 AM   [Ignore Me] #69
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What I don't get is why everyone assumes that MA/Rexo is the way combat should be fought. Surgile is a viable tactic imo, I could very easily spend 3 certs and get rexo/pshield, but as a personal choice I like to move faster and I really don't try to warp, and I have no idea that I am warping until someone accuses me of it. Personally, I have almost never seen anyone truely warping just because of surge, I see rexos doing it too, flying through walls and such, but even then, hardly regularly.

There have been 3 types of grunts I have seen with any regularity, Rexos with MA, Rexos with HA, and surgiles with HA.
http://www.thottbot.com/planetside/2...heavy_assault/
Notice that of all br 10's across servers, 74% of nc with HA have rexo as well.
So of the NC that have Jackhammer, (38%), only 26% of those are activly surgiling.
Will the whiners not be happy until agile is completely useless as a combat armor? There does not have to be one formula for how a grunt has to go into combat. Everyone going in a rexo is just as boring as everyone and their grandmother carrying a lasher.

Hell, if you want to go pure cert-points spent v. cert-points spent, MA rexos spend 5 certs, surgiles spend 6 + an implant, the Rexo deserves to die up close. HA rexos spend 9 certs, I know as a surgile, a good MCG rexo can screw me up bad if he knows i am coming, a decent lasher rexo can do the same thing. If you add personal shield to the rexo, making it a full 3-point advantage then yes, I have a very hard time dealing with Rexos. That means that with JH, now the slowest ttk up close, I have to deal about 400 pts of damage to them before they do 200 to me. Tough, but I manage.

EDIT: Also to all of you whiners complaining about one guy in agile kiling 3-4 people in a row, did it occur to you that 1. They were probably better, 2. They were more prepared, 3. The people were not paying attention and either got snuck up on or acted like deer in the headlights. A sugile jumping on 3 rexos with mcg's drawn paying attention to their surroundings = dead surgile in about a half a second. A surgile jumping on 3 Rexos all picking their ass looking the wrong way should = 3 dead rexos imo.

Imo, close-range combat was good, fast-paced (like it should be) and balenced. (yes, even against the uber-lasher)

In any case, I delt with the JH being nerfed repeatedly and rexos + other HA weapons being buffed, I will deal with being slower too I guess. More incentive for me to never leave my vanguard =\ until the rexobunnies start bitching about not being able to kill those with their ub3r med assault.

Last edited by Eldanesh; 2004-03-13 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 2004-03-13, 07:20 AM   [Ignore Me] #70
Acaila
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Second to those who are saying, just fix the netcode. Understand that they have been trying to do just that, but we're not dealing with the average FPS game here. You don't have to worry about 8 or 16 objects, the netcode has to deal with 600 objects and all of them with varies states of connectivity and hardware. Quite frankly it's a bloody miracle the game runs at all with these kinds of numbers. There are physical limitations of the code - there is a top end of "trackability" and after numerous attempts by the programmers to find an effective fix, I believe the decission was made to do "something do-able" at least for now - I'm sure the programmers are CONTINUIOUSLY looking to improve the upper end and make it work better but you have to realize there are LIMITS to what can be done. You can't compare this to other FPS games as there ARE NO OTHER FPS GAMES on this scale! I'm a little ticked off at the OF posts by users who call the programmers lazy or too un-caring to fix it the way they "think" it can be fixed.
Exactly. The problem isn't the code, it is the fact that not everyone has a T1 line into their living room and the servers aren't hosted each on their own T3 lines. Surge doesn't cause warping, neither does jumping, low data rates is what causes it. SOE looks for the most realistic solution and that is making people move far slower so the gaps in positional updating from incoming data aren't as noticeable.
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Old 2004-03-13, 08:27 AM   [Ignore Me] #71
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Originally Posted by Dharkbayne
Suprise Suprise! You Can Get Rexo, Use A Gauss For Long To Medium Range, Then When You're Close Enough, Get Out Your Jh To Finish Them Off! Wow! So Fucking Hard!
LMAO! Exactly what I was thinking.
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Old 2004-03-13, 08:49 AM   [Ignore Me] #72
Vick
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I dont use the JH, but if you guys have tried it you would see it is only as good as a lasher or MCG in VERY close range. Not from the top of a stairwell to the bottom, not across a spawnroom, you gotta be right on them. Which is why you see so many surgiles, and why the surge change will really hurt the JH.

I only use the gauss, I have 10 load outs, and they all have a gauss. Infact, my main rexo suit is dual gauss rifles. Ive got surgile gauss, pilot guass, standard armor and gauss for boomering spawn rooms, bolt driver and gauss, ACEs and gauss, all kinds of stuff. So trust me when I know about the guass, I will take on anyone with it, the surgilest lasher or the most badass rexo MCGer. I have thousands of kills with it.

I have no problems killing these "warpers" unless maybe they are bunny hopping. I like to use surge to run away, drop boomers, race in and kill a guy then leave, all kinds of stuff I will no longer be able to do. Overall, I just think this is bullshit. I am not exploiting or trying to warp or whatever, I am a good player and I like the extra speed of surge.

Anyway, one last thing, those surgile JH guys are not winning because they warp or have a good gun. They are better players then you, face it.
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Last edited by Vick; 2004-03-13 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 2004-03-13, 09:03 AM   [Ignore Me] #73
DeathEater
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About time. This is an excellent change. I am all for it.
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Old 2004-03-13, 09:23 AM   [Ignore Me] #74
Krinsath
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Originally Posted by Eldanesh
What I don't get is why everyone assumes that MA/Rexo is the way combat should be fought. Surgile is a viable tactic imo, I could very easily spend 3 certs and get rexo/pshield, but as a personal choice I like to move faster and I really don't try to warp, and I have no idea that I am warping until someone accuses me of it. Personally, I have almost never seen anyone truely warping just because of surge, I see rexos doing it too, flying through walls and such, but even then, hardly regularly.
Surgile was a viable tactic until people discovered that it could be abused into gaining an unfair advantage. Abuse it and lose it, effectively. Had people said "well, I won't surge when I get into a base and start changing elevations" then maybe we wouldn't be at this point now. Of course, who in the hell is going to say that? We have people who forget to switch Darklight off, so you can be assured that nobody was bothering to regulate their surge usage.

If you've been around these boards and OF and you bother to READ anything, you knew about issues with surging. While you might not realize that you're doing it once, as soon as the hate tells start pouring in, it should occur to you "Hmmm...even I can warp without meaning to...well, this issue needs to be fixed!" The fact that there is also a guaranteed method of exploiting the bug in the netcode cements it as a needed fix.


Originally Posted by Eldanesh
There have been 3 types of grunts I have seen with any regularity, Rexos with MA, Rexos with HA, and surgiles with HA.
Notice that of all br 10's across servers, 74% of nc with HA have rexo as well.
So of the NC that have Jackhammer, (38%), only 26% of those are activly surgiling.
Yes, and that last one shouldn't be on there. If you're going to be dedicated infantry, and participating in the point of assaults, which is the idea behind being HA, then you need to armor to stop the incoming bullets. It's all CQB, so agility means crap as there is no space to manuever. Outside it could make a difference, but then you forget that HA was not meant to be used as an outdoor weapon. It's a passable outdoor weapon at short range, but the rifles own HA outdoors.

Those numbers are also slightly flawed. Yes, 74% of NC with HA have Rexo, but that does not mean that 26% of them are actively surgling. That number could be as high as 50% with those guys having Rexo for when they need to be in a base defense. There's really no way of telling but to draw conclusions based on that statistic is flawed. Until you go in and measure how many NC players have HA and surge and what armor they're wearing when they use surge and HA, you can't say for certain how many are doing what.

So to review: HA = Heavy Assault. Heavy Assault means Heavy Damage to break open Heavy Defense. Heavy Defense means Heavy Enemy Firepower. Heavy Enemy Firepower means....get an assault suit, not a pilot's jumpsuit.

Originally Posted by Eldanesh
Will the whiners not be happy until agile is completely useless as a combat armor? There does not have to be one formula for how a grunt has to go into combat.
The agile is not useless as a combat armor. It's not totally *useless* as an assault armor, but it's not terribly good at it either...which makes sense as it is the MIDDLE armor (Infiltrator, Standard, Agile, RExo, MAX...gee, funny how it fights right in the middle as the jack of all trades and master of none). You neglict that the most powerful vehicles that a Rexo can pilot is a buggy. Sure, the Enforcer can be a monster, and the Thresher and Skyguard can be annoying, but does any of that compare to that gut feeling when you see a column of battle tanks roll over the hill? Or Flail spam coming in over the horizon? Both of those are the same three certs as the Rexo that they're insta-killing....while in their heavily armored tanks wearing Agile. Forgive me if I don't cry a river for the Agiles out there. You made a choice to drive heavy vehicles or fly aircraft, as a result, your options as assault infantry will be lowered in comparison to those who specialize solely in assault. Why the hell is this a surprise to anyone? MY GOD! Professional baseball players are generally better than the guys who just play on the weekends! NERF MLB!!

Originally Posted by Eldanesh
Hell, if you want to go pure cert-points spent v. cert-points spent, MA rexos spend 5 certs, surgiles spend 6 + an implant, the Rexo deserves to die up close. HA rexos spend 9 certs, I know as a surgile, a good MCG rexo can screw me up bad if he knows i am coming, a decent lasher rexo can do the same thing. If you add personal shield to the rexo, making it a full 3-point advantage then yes, I have a very hard time dealing with Rexos. That means that with JH, now the slowest ttk up close, I have to deal about 400 pts of damage to them before they do 200 to me. Tough, but I manage.
Just a quick clarification for the record as this may be a typo: A Rexo is 300 points, not 400. Add in that it is still possible to die in RExo with armor remaining, and it's not a full 300 ALL the time.

Indoors, where HA was designed to be used, the Agile can still win as now assuming he is not facing a RExo HA...and even that's not guaranteed to be a loss, just not an easy fight. If you're fighting at range, the rifle will win...that's kind of the idea behind a rifle. The Agile in this instance obviously decided they wanted to be able to dish it out more than they could take it. That's a tactical desicion, but it shouldn't be more viable than someone who choose defense. Their armor level is 1 above yours, your weapon level is one above their's...that means it should be an even fight and 50-50 on the outcome. Currently the Surgile have closer to a 70/30 ratio on wins-to-losses in 1v1 circumstances.

Originally Posted by Eldanesh
EDIT: Also to all of you whiners complaining about one guy in agile kiling 3-4 people in a row, did it occur to you that 1. They were probably better, 2. They were more prepared, 3. The people were not paying attention and either got snuck up on or acted like deer in the headlights. A sugile jumping on 3 rexos with mcg's drawn paying attention to their surroundings = dead surgile in about a half a second. A surgile jumping on 3 Rexos all picking their ass looking the wrong way should = 3 dead rexos imo.
Again, the most grievous abuse of surge has always been in stairwells and anywhere else that there is elevation change. Every empire has them, but they jump down stairs while surging as soon as they see an enemy come up and the targets are usually dead before anything can happen. If someone was surging straight and level and gets four or five people, then a case can be made that they were more skilled. When they kill four people without taking any damage as they tend to do in tower battles, then there's a problem. To borrow from your example, surgiles (and in these circumstances, RExo's too...hence why it wasn't just the agile that got the surge nerf) can come down the stairs at 5 guys with guns drawn waiting and the 5 willl still get killed because of the warping and client-side hit detection. The fact that throwing a jammer up the stairs immediately resolves the problem could not more clearly indicate that surge is the root of that problem. Are there tactics out there to counter surge? Sure, but why should people need to develop tactics to counter bugs?

Originally Posted by Eldanesh
Imo, close-range combat was good, fast-paced (like it should be) and balenced. (yes, even against the uber-lasher)

In any case, I delt with the JH being nerfed repeatedly and rexos + other HA weapons being buffed, I will deal with being slower too I guess. More incentive for me to never leave my vanguard =\ until the rexobunnies start bitching about not being able to kill those with their ub3r med assault.
It's still no less fast-paced. The bullets still fly at the same speed. Damage is still dished out and absorbed at the same speed. The only difference is that now you can't fling yourself with reckless abandon at a fortified position without getting gunned down (again...why is anybody surprised when that happens?).

The JH is still the middle HA weapon. The Lasher is still #1 until those fixes get in...the JH is short-ranged, but the MCG has such an insane CoF that you have to be up close to get any production out of it. Up close on a JH user...where might that be a problem...the only real flaw with the JH is that the Sweeper outperforms it due to pellet spread. I've said many times that should be swapped. Hell, you can swap the 1 extra damage point a pellet too. The JH would be quite awesome if it had the Sweeper's pellet spread.

And, for the record, the people who probably want this change the most are the Rexo HA users. If you want to complain about having to spend 6 certs...why should you be able to beat guys who paid 9 certs with any sort of reliability? Sure, skill plays a factor, but if you were to clone people currently, the surgile version would probably win about 50% of the time. That's way too high for that equation. Giving up one armor level PLUS having equal weapons levels should equate to a more 60/40 mix at the very least and 70/30 ideally (remember, the Rexo HA has to deal out two thirds as much damage). In CQB, the kings should be the guys in heavy armor with heavy weapons...what the hell is wrong with people who don't understand this?

Surge was abused, surge needs to go away. Maybe next time someone finds out about something like this and posts for four or five months about it and numerous videos are made documenting the problem, people will go "hmmm, I won't use this till it's fixed" instead of "OMG!! FREE KILLS!"
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Old 2004-03-13, 09:42 AM   [Ignore Me] #75
WritheNC
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TR/VS guys should stop saying, "NC have no right to bitch why don't you see how it feels?" around here.

You could say that on the OF, but most of the people that are NC here were NC to begin with and not some empire hopping wannabe winners.

If the VS stayed winners and had the majority of the population for the next few months I won't be saying you guys don't deserve to complain just because 1500 losers joined you when the Lasher was buffed. That doesn't make any sense.

And the JH would be fixed pretty good if they just gave it the sweeper's hitscan(which is much tighter and the pellets do not fly at wild random trajectories within the scope of the CoF).
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