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Old 2004-08-20, 12:14 PM   [Ignore Me] #61
Lartnev
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Yeah but it's so much more rewarding when you kill people as an infil
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Old 2004-08-20, 12:17 PM   [Ignore Me] #62
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Originally Posted by Lartnev
Yeah but it's so much more rewarding when you kill people as an infil
It is. Killing somebody having no armor and using a minimal weapon is a much bigger rush than any grunt work I've ever done. It's a true challenge, and I don't want to remove the challenge at all. I just want to keep the spirit of Dark Light where it was originally intended, and increase the cat and mouse game.
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Old 2004-08-20, 01:14 PM   [Ignore Me] #63
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BAD IDEA, and this is coming from a cloaker's prespective. About 5/10 times I'm in an enemy base I'm caught on DL. About 2/10 times I'm in an enemy base I'm killed because of DL. Just cuz you've been spotted doesn't mean you're dead, and if it does for you, then drop cloaking. Cloaking is about knowing how not to get caught and if you do, knowing how to deal with a problem and if you can't, knowing how to run away and live. Everything that your Stealth certs give you I can achieve with Implants and skill.

Originally Posted by Madcow
I just want to keep the spirit of Dark Light where it was originally intended, and increase the cat and mouse game.
Indeed
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Old 2004-08-20, 02:19 PM   [Ignore Me] #64
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Originally Posted by Madcow
Thanks for not reading anything! Have a nice day! Seriously, if you can't be bothered to read what people even put down how in the world am I supposed to see your viewpoint as valid? I don't touch AMP (and talking about circle strafing with an AMP just goes to show you really don't know much about the gun), rarely use pistols, use Boomers pretty much only when I'm forced inside, use Spitfires almost exclusively as a distraction and get almost all of my kills with the knife. So how many of your comments applied to me? Hmmm. Just about none. Yet you were responding to me. Fascinating.
Now that's interesting. I like to think that as something slightly more than retarded apes we're capable of grasping a point whether every nuance is covered to a nauseating deree. Which makes me really wonder why on earth you've chosen to focus on the smaller, less important sort of afterthought section I posted, defending your honor like some Internet samurai. Believe it or not, but talking about how you get kills really wasn't #1 on my agenda. The point I was making is that infiltrators will always have the same gripes provided they're going for the same stuff as the grunts are.

Also, I never used an AMP as an infiltrator, so you're right, I don't have a lot of experience with the gun. But you know what? I kill lot's and lot's of infiltrators who use an AMP to run circles around me at close range, holding down the fire button. So, why do I need to have experience with an AMP as an infiltrator to know that infiltrators sometimes use AMPs and circle strafe around targets when I kill them every other day?

As to your question of why there aren't more cloakers? I'll happily give you my biased answer. Cloaking takes skill. Cloaking well takes lots of patience and lots of skill. The vast majority of Planetside has no interest in challenge, they have interest in killwhoring. Proof of this is the popularity of Dark Light. To hunt down cloakers without Dark Light is challenging, but far from impossible. Using Dark Light allows faster kills and at times incredibly cheap kills, and that attracts the player base.
Not many people play cloakers because ultimately you're just killing infantry like the rest of us, only you have a lot of chance built into it, though that gives you an elitist feeling, as if you're better than everyone else because you can die really quickly due to bad luck, so it still holds some appeal. I do agree though that PS on the whole has a lot of skilless roles, like Reaver pilot and using strikers or other homing weapons.

As for Darklight being something for killwhoring, give me a break. What's the alternative, shoot at a barely visible, fast-moving wisp of a cloaker as it runs around blowing people up with boomers and grenades? It's either Darklight, or having to deal with a really annoying enemy with very few effective ways to fight back, and thus very few ways to defend yourself and avoid being killed by grenades or otherwise.

I'm not looking to 'outkill' a grunt, although I'm sure there are times that I do just that. My job on the battle field is far different than the average grunt. I'm not holding down a stairwell (I can take down the first wave, but beyond that I'm helpless). I'm not rushing into the face of battle. It's a bad comparison, but it's the one you chose. My job is to get to the battle front before the battle begins, to get behind enemy lines giving myself the best opportunity to take out Snipers and AV, as well as optimizing my opportunity to mine gimped vehicles that drop back for repairs. If I'm feeling patient I can run a 4/1 or 5/1 k/d ratio, if I'm feeling less patient it's closer to 2/1 or 3/1. I'm fighting totally different battles than the average grunt though, I'm staying away from situations with large numbers of people in a confined area and therefore am not killwhoring. I'm not impressed by killwhoring. I'm happy to know it means so much to you.
Oh, semantics, it's been such a long time since we've gotten together.

The grunt comparison was to say that infiltrators are simply another type of fodder. This is a generalization of course and it may not apply to everyone, but the vast majority of infiltrators either run up to stationary targets, plant a boomer, and run, or they do a similar activity but use an AMP, and circle strafe instead. They're doing a grunt's job, just in a different method. Or if you want to nitpick, they're on par with snipers instead. Suffice to say though, even by your own admition cloakers spend most of their time killing people for no reason other than to grind the enemy through attrition. Doesn't matter how, but that's what they do, and it's also what grunts, or snipers, do.

But see, the 'inconvenience' that you're talking about is exactly what I'm hoping would happen with the change. I want people to have to commit to going after that cloaker, and the cost could quite possible be them getting blasted by somebody they can't see so well any more. That's perfect, that is a cat and mouse game. That's the reason they built that drawback into Dark Light to begin with, but it's easily gotten around by the flickering that happens.
Darklight might need some modification, but I would hate to see the developers focus on trying to make most cloakers just another group of killwhores, as you put it, alongside most grunts and most snipers. They already do have a lot of success in combat, as cloakers have been sharing without hesitation, and I don't see why they need to have even more if they're already so potent with DL as it is now.

And, changing DL for the worse will not increase the cat and mouse aspect. It'll be the same old thing, just now more boomers will be going off in spawn rooms, or by locked-down MAXs, or more spitfires will be popping up in the middle of infantry attacking a tower or enemy base. There is no cat and mouse to begin with, because the goal of most cloakers is simply to kill enemy soldiers. They're not trying to get somewhere Sam Fischer style and avoid detection, they're trying to run in, kill some doods, and respawn to do the same thing.

Originally Posted by Cauldron Borne
Grunt: Die, Respawn, run out, mash down trigger at nearest enemy target, die, respawn...
I thought you said you've played a grunt before.

Cloaker: Die, Respawn, TRY to sneak back into the field and find a place where his/her talents are most useful. ATTEMPT to pull off his/her objective. If that objective is not to kill something, then MAYBE get a few kills on the side. Get spotted for what ever reason, most likely INSTANTLY die, respawn. IF at any point the cloaker is spotted, he/she must respawn and try to go through the list from the beginning.
A Darklight change wouldn't make that much different. You'd still be going for the same place the grunts are going. You'd still have to deal with people actually at your objective, usually (dropping spitfires and other field work would be a bit safer though). And so long as the objectives of a cloaker don't stray from those of a grunt (blow the gen, hack the cc, hack/destroy the AMS, etc) I certainly don't want to see cloakers made anymore potent. The rarity that cloakers are right now is perfect considering they're just killwhoring for the most part, anyway. If Darklight were nerfed, they'd be doing it even more effectively, and as a grunt I would really rather not be fighting an army of cloakers primarily.

Last edited by Warborn; 2004-08-20 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 2004-08-20, 03:25 PM   [Ignore Me] #65
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There is no cat and mouse to begin with, because the goal of most cloakers is simply to kill enemy soldiers. They're not trying to get somewhere Sam Fischer style and avoid detection, they're trying to run in, kill some doods, and respawn to do the same thing.
Cloakers who do this are kill-spam, plain and simple. They are also a pain in the neck for me. I'm trying to get into a base, he blows or amps somone which quickly alerts his buddies which quickly kill him and chances are, me to. Furthermore, trying to kill whore as a cloaker is just stupid. A cloaker will get killed many times due to stray fire, well placed and hidden mines, TK, etc. before he gets any kill.

The overall problem is the flickering....way too much of it. I'm well hidden in a base that has a low enemy population (I've been in spawn rooms for long periods of time w/o anyone taking notice), but some one with the flickering finger hits his DL for no reason (as I haven't given them reason to suspect yet) and pow, im dead with JH to face or back of the head. DL is simply way too easy to use and way too convient. Simply forcing a mandatory time and stamina use will eliminate the majority of this. Only people who complain are those who love to flicker.

Furthermore, if this creates armies of cloakers...smile...your getting some cheap and easy kills. Turn on DL and spam away. Don't worry, the armies of cloakers will "disappear" real fast.
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Old 2004-08-20, 03:35 PM   [Ignore Me] #66
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Originally Posted by Warborn
Now that's interesting. I like to think that as something slightly more than retarded apes we're capable of grasping a point whether every nuance is covered to a nauseating deree. Which makes me really wonder why on earth you've chosen to focus on the smaller, less important sort of afterthought section I posted, defending your honor like some Internet samurai. Believe it or not, but talking about how you get kills really wasn't #1 on my agenda. The point I was making is that infiltrators will always have the same gripes provided they're going for the same stuff as the grunts are.
Internet samurai? Interesting. Pointless name calling, but interesting. Your point about kills is fairly moot, as I've already mentioned. I hack more towers, I hack more bases, I jack more vehicles than grunts. When I do focus on killing, I'm focusing on a completely different area and taking care of a task that the average grunt would not be able to do, by virtue of my ability to slip behind enemy lines which is much easier with minimum visibility.

Also, I never used an AMP as an infiltrator, so you're right, I don't have a lot of experience with the gun. But you know what? I kill lot's and lot's of infiltrators who use an AMP to run circles around me at close range, holding down the fire button. So, why do I need to have experience with an AMP as an infiltrator to know that infiltrators sometimes use AMPs and circle strafe around targets when I kill them every other day?
The only reason to ever circle strafe with an AMP is because your target is 2-3 bullets from death after you've unloaded a bunch into their back. The CoF on that gun while moving is large enough that you will miss the majority of shots while point blank. Basically, you're killing crappy infiltrators. I'm glad to see that, though, thin the herd a little bit and people will be looking for the rest of us a little less.

Not many people play cloakers because ultimately you're just killing infantry like the rest of us, only you have a lot of chance built into it, though that gives you an elitist feeling, as if you're better than everyone else because you can die really quickly due to bad luck, so it still holds some appeal. I do agree though that PS on the whole has a lot of skilless roles, like Reaver pilot and using strikers or other homing weapons.
I've played every role PS has to offer. I personally find that other play styles can not keep my attention and that I'm able to excel in them with significantly less brainpower and with less of what I would consider skill. Most roles reward twitch reflexes beyond anything else. However, this is not a blank statement to the whole of PS. I also think that Reaver pilots for the most part are skill-less killwhores. That being said, I've seen some great pilots and can certainly appreciate those that continue flying until they get to that point. The downside is that kills are so plentiful while flying that few challenge themselves to get to that point. I personally believe that infiltrator is one of the few PS roles that begins with a steep learning curve, which discourages many from taking up the suit for more than a week or so (I think this is a good thing, mind you). If you want to call that elitist, que sera.

As for Darklight being something for killwhoring, give me a break. What's the alternative, shoot at a barely visible, fast-moving wisp of a cloaker as it runs around blowing people up with boomers and grenades? It's either Darklight, or having to deal with a really annoying enemy with very few effective ways to fight back, and thus very few ways to defend yourself and avoid being killed by grenades or otherwise.
What's the alternative? You are aware we have no armor, right? You are aware 2 plasma grenades will usually do us in, although 1 will disclose our location while you riddle us with the gun of your choice, right? You're also aware that most spam-tastic weapons, led by the Lasher, get the chance to kill us just on the suspicion that we might be around? Those alternatives are just for the more patient cloakers, the less patient ones will disclose themselves and allow you to run them through anyhow. Considering how few bullets it takes to bring a cloaker down, that's a lot of alternatives before Dark Light is brought into the equation. I've said it before and I'll say it again, not everybody is using Dark Light to killwhore. Plenty are. If my saying that makes you feel guilty, you're either misreading what I'm typing or you've got some guilt going on. I won't pretend to know which it is, I don't know you in game at all. If people are using Dark Light because they caught some movement, good for them they deserve the kill. If people are running through random locations flickering the implant, they're killwhoring and bringing the general skill level of the game down.

The grunt comparison was to say that infiltrators are simply another type of fodder. This is a generalization of course and it may not apply to everyone, but the vast majority of infiltrators either run up to stationary targets, plant a boomer, and run, or they do a similar activity but use an AMP, and circle strafe instead. They're doing a grunt's job, just in a different method. Or if you want to nitpick, they're on par with snipers instead. Suffice to say though, even by your own admition cloakers spend most of their time killing people for no reason other than to grind the enemy through attrition. Doesn't matter how, but that's what they do, and it's also what grunts, or snipers, do.
I never said anything about killing enemies to grind them by attrition. When I get behind enemy lines and am able to destroy gimped vehicles that drop back to repair, I think that's an invaluable asset to my team. When I can mine Flails until they disengage and run to repair, my guys can get out of that tower that they couldn't run up the stairs of earlier. When I can knife Snipers or AV guys I'm allowing my team to have a better chance of resecuring a courtyard or base, or taking one. It's certainly possible to be very successful killing while also helping your empire. They don't have to be exclusive of one another.

Darklight might need some modification, but I would hate to see the developers focus on trying to make most cloakers just another group of killwhores, as you put it, alongside most grunts and most snipers. They already do have a lot of success in combat, as cloakers have been sharing without hesitation, and I don't see why they need to have even more if they're already so potent with DL as it is now.
At least you're kind of seeing what we're saying. Most of us aren't saying get rid of Dark Light. The changes I've talked about wouldn't give a massive advantage to cloakers. Honestly, I think the changes I've talked about put the implant where it was originally intended, but that's certainly open to argument.

And, changing DL for the worse will not increase the cat and mouse aspect. It'll be the same old thing, just now more boomers will be going off in spawn rooms, or by locked-down MAXs, or more spitfires will be popping up in the middle of infantry attacking a tower or enemy base. There is no cat and mouse to begin with, because the goal of most cloakers is simply to kill enemy soldiers. They're not trying to get somewhere Sam Fischer style and avoid detection, they're trying to run in, kill some doods, and respawn to do the same thing.
Any changes to Dark Light won't impact spawn room boomer runs as 95% of the people in a spawn room won't have the implant initialized yet anyhow. Regardless, spawn room boomering has slowed to a crawl since the surge nerf. I think you'll have trouble finding people to back you up on that one. Mining locked down MAXs hasn't slowed down a bit. The lockdown takes so long to get off I can still place a mine before the MAX could possibly see me in 3rd person, disengage and get far enough away. They've now changed it to 2 mines to kill a MAX and I would actually encourage them to change it to 3. Sorry if that messes up my killwhore rep.

The reason for not much cat and mouse now is specifically the way the implant plays. If an infiltrator is going to kill, he has to commit early and go in quick. The grunt has nothing to discourage him from using his implant carte blanche, so either way it goes it's going to end quickly. Now if the implant was to lock on for a period of time, I could move about with significantly more freedom from random 'flicker' deaths. If I were to make a bonehead move, somebody would see me and light me up and I'd deserve that. If somebody were to see me in the field, I might have opportunity to try and draw the blind man into fire knowing he was committed to searching just for me for a few moments. Much more cat and mouse.

A Darklight change wouldn't make that much different....If Darklight were nerfed, they'd be doing it even more effectively, and as a grunt I would really rather not be fighting an army of cloakers primarily.
Do you really thing such a minor change would create an army of infiltrators? Maybe at first, but people would quickly drop it when they realize it's not so easy as they like to pretend. However, if you think the change wouldn't make it that much different (as you say), why should you care if the change(s) were to be implemented? If things wouldn't be much different on your grunt end, why should it bother you that those of us on the other end are asking for it?

Last edited by Madcow; 2004-08-20 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 2004-08-20, 04:14 PM   [Ignore Me] #67
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IMO Darklight needs a range decrease and an instant stamina drop when it's first used
Perhaps 20 stamina points
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Old 2004-08-20, 05:32 PM   [Ignore Me] #68
Lartnev
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Originally Posted by Sputty
IMO Darklight needs a range decrease and an instant stamina drop when it's first used
Perhaps 20 stamina points
QFT
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Old 2004-08-20, 05:55 PM   [Ignore Me] #69
_-Gunslinger-_
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DL range is fine. If I flip on surge im out of thier range in like 4 seconds. Now if they have good aim (or a JH) ill be dead otherwise not, eitherway unless I was detected by a flicker its my fault, and I just would considermyself lucky to have gotten away.

What DL needs is a FOV nerf akin to the black edges of your screen when you zoom. Perhaps instead of just blackness it distorts the edges, posibly disorienting the solier.

That and a initial stamina drain of 10-15 is needed to balance DL IMO.

Those implimentations dont effect killwhoring, cloakers are only good at this aganst unaware targets (Snipers, phonix users, ect.). All I want is for a person to have to actually search for me when they use DL. As apposed to hit DL and thirdperson and seeing me instantly.
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Old 2004-08-20, 06:05 PM   [Ignore Me] #70
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Originally Posted by _-Gunslinger-_
DL range is fine. If I flip on surge im out of thier range in like 4 seconds. Now if they have good aim (or a JH) ill be dead otherwise not, eitherway unless I was detected by a flicker its my fault, and I just would considermyself lucky to have gotten away.
DL range is fine sometimes. It gets longer in 3rd person, and even in first person it gives you away further than 35 meters sometimes. Nonetheless, 35 meters can be a long distance sometimes. I think 25 or so would make more sense, but I could live with the range staying the same if some of these other changes went in. Sputty's change would be just as effective as mine I think. Heck, if they put Sputty's into the game I would almost be okay with the implant not costing stamina after you turned it on. The initial hit of 20 would be enough to discourage flickering, an initial hit of 20 and then an ugly stamina drain would be too much.
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Old 2004-08-20, 06:09 PM   [Ignore Me] #71
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I can spot cloakers at 50m w/ DLV.....

everything is a purple haze, except for this faint white outline. Cround, aim, fire, dead cloaker.


And I am considering getting rid of DLV when i hit br18 in favor of:
Adv Target OR Melee Boost (depends on my mood).
Audio Amp
Sensor Shield
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Old 2004-08-20, 06:12 PM   [Ignore Me] #72
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Originally Posted by Meursault00
I had this great reply planned to list why darklight should not be modified. But then I realized that you people who just moan and groan about me being a newbie Rexo user. So I figure I'd express my ideas in a few short statements.

1. You're no James Bond, so don't act like it.

2. Don't insult the largest group players in the game if you want to instigate change.

3. Cloakers are support characters. They alone will not win a battle and they alone will not win a war.

4. Personal stories mean squat. The battlefield is way to unpredictable of any of that to mean anything at all.

Oh, I think it's a bad idea by the way.

1. Yes infils are, if played correctly they can do about anything except tank a hallway full of spam.

2. This has worked before.

3. They can win a battle easily with their actions, if played properly, not the war however.

4. Thats true, but my personal record is 47-0 over the course of 3 hours, this includes about 5 boomer trips, and the boomering of an ams, and killing snipers and such, if he wants to brag let him brag, I believe what he said because I've done about the same thing.
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Old 2004-08-20, 08:03 PM   [Ignore Me] #73
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Originally Posted by Madcow
Internet samurai? Interesting. Pointless name calling, but interesting.
Name calling? Yikes. It was an analogy. Your entire post revolved around you trying to tell me that you're the James MacGuyver of infiltrators and are so leet you're reet, totally ignoring everything except a little footnote in my post.

Your point about kills is fairly moot, as I've already mentioned. I hack more towers, I hack more bases, I jack more vehicles than grunts. When I do focus on killing, I'm focusing on a completely different area and taking care of a task that the average grunt would not be able to do, by virtue of my ability to slip behind enemy lines which is much easier with minimum visibility.
Haha, ok. Yes, there are a couple occassions where a cloaker has been able to do something worthwhile. The odd tower here and there, an unoccupied vehicle hacked for kicks, and so on. But you're doing nothing that I haven't seen grunts do a million times. You really don't have any place in the game, similar to a sniper (and I'm a sniper myself, by the way). We're not necessary. We're just novelties, and we rarely make a significant difference, although snipers are meant to be infantry support, whereas cloakers are... well... I guess they're for the people who don't have the twitch required to grunt. Or they're there for the guys who love doing boomer runs and seeing the kill spam. But really, your role is that of a grunt, you're just very poorly equipped for the job, and so long as the role of cloakers overlaps with that of grunts, I doubt you'll ever be happy. Unless, of course, cloakers are made better at grunting than grunts, in which case I suspect you'd be just peachy.

The only reason to ever circle strafe with an AMP is because your target is 2-3 bullets from death after you've unloaded a bunch into their back. The CoF on that gun while moving is large enough that you will miss the majority of shots while point blank. Basically, you're killing crappy infiltrators. I'm glad to see that, though, thin the herd a little bit and people will be looking for the rest of us a little less.
Well, let's see. The infiltrators who try to boomer me die. The ones who setup spitfires die. The ones who try and knife me die. And the ones who use an AMP die. Maybe I'm just lucky, but there doesn't seem to be any cloaker who is at all good at killing infantry outside a spawn room. It's this that makes me wonder why you guys focus on trying to kill infantry so much. Sure, now and then a few have some limited success, but for the most part you're just bringing a knife to a gun fight, and it's really ridiculous. I never imagined cloakers would be executed so poorly, but maybe one of these days that'll change and they'll get to use their stealth for something effective more often.

I personally believe that infiltrator is one of the few PS roles that begins with a steep learning curve, which discourages many from taking up the suit for more than a week or so (I think this is a good thing, mind you). If you want to call that elitist, que sera.
What's the alternative? You are aware we have no armor, right? You are aware 2 plasma grenades will usually do us in, although 1 will disclose our location while you riddle us with the gun of your choice, right? You're also aware that most spam-tastic weapons, led by the Lasher, get the chance to kill us just on the suspicion that we might be around? Those alternatives are just for the more patient cloakers, the less patient ones will disclose themselves and allow you to run them through anyhow. Considering how few bullets it takes to bring a cloaker down, that's a lot of alternatives before Dark Light is brought into the equation. I've said it before and I'll say it again, not everybody is using Dark Light to killwhore. Plenty are. If my saying that makes you feel guilty, you're either misreading what I'm typing or you've got some guilt going on. I won't pretend to know which it is, I don't know you in game at all. If people are using Dark Light because they caught some movement, good for them they deserve the kill. If people are running through random locations flickering the implant, they're killwhoring and bringing the general skill level of the game down.
It's funny that you'd play-up the infiltrators weaknesses so much when you just got done boasting about how successful you are as an infiltrator, despite Darklight being in the game as it currently is. You are aware that if Darklight were to take a big hit you'd only do better, right?

I never said anything about killing enemies to grind them by attrition. When I get behind enemy lines and am able to destroy gimped vehicles that drop back to repair, I think that's an invaluable asset to my team. When I can mine Flails until they disengage and run to repair, my guys can get out of that tower that they couldn't run up the stairs of earlier. When I can knife Snipers or AV guys I'm allowing my team to have a better chance of resecuring a courtyard or base, or taking one. It's certainly possible to be very successful killing while also helping your empire. They don't have to be exclusive of one another.
The manner in which you kill the enemy doesn't discount your actions from amounting to nothing more than attrition. You are doing exactly what any type of infantry does: kill the enemy. Maybe you use boomers or knives, but you're still inflicting casualties, and that's what grunts do. Perhaps you think there's a distinction, but in fact, there's no more distiction between it than if you were to have been another grunt with an AV weapon destroying the vehicle before it was able to get away to repair. This is one of the more unfortunate realities of the game, as infiltrator is actually what I started out as during Beta, though after a couple months I quickly realized there wasn't much hope for infiltrators to be just another form of grunt.

At least you're kind of seeing what we're saying. Most of us aren't saying get rid of Dark Light. The changes I've talked about wouldn't give a massive advantage to cloakers. Honestly, I think the changes I've talked about put the implant where it was originally intended, but that's certainly open to argument.
As I said, I don't want to see cloakers just the Reavers of infantry, throwing around skilless kills with impunity. Give them jobs other than simply killing things and the jammer grenades will allow the job to be accomplished in spite of Darklight.

Any changes to Dark Light won't impact spawn room boomer runs as 95% of the people in a spawn room won't have the implant initialized yet anyhow. Regardless, spawn room boomering has slowed to a crawl since the surge nerf. I think you'll have trouble finding people to back you up on that one. Mining locked down MAXs hasn't slowed down a bit. The lockdown takes so long to get off I can still place a mine before the MAX could possibly see me in 3rd person, disengage and get far enough away. They've now changed it to 2 mines to kill a MAX and I would actually encourage them to change it to 3. Sorry if that messes up my killwhore rep.
You realize of course that the way cloakers in spawn rooms is usually solved is by someone who's already spawned going down there and using Darklight to kill the cloaker, right?

Also, a few posts ago I think we determined whether you were a "killwhore" or not. After all, what grunt isn't in the game to kill the enemy?

The reason for not much cat and mouse now is specifically the way the implant plays. If an infiltrator is going to kill, he has to commit early and go in quick. The grunt has nothing to discourage him from using his implant carte blanche, so either way it goes it's going to end quickly. Now if the implant was to lock on for a period of time, I could move about with significantly more freedom from random 'flicker' deaths. If I were to make a bonehead move, somebody would see me and light me up and I'd deserve that. If somebody were to see me in the field, I might have opportunity to try and draw the blind man into fire knowing he was committed to searching just for me for a few moments. Much more cat and mouse.
Your example was pretty awful. Drawing them into fire? Is that while you're behind the lines, as you put it, or what?

Do you really thing such a minor change would create an army of infiltrators? Maybe at first, but people would quickly drop it when they realize it's not so easy as they like to pretend. However, if you think the change wouldn't make it that much different (as you say), why should you care if the change(s) were to be implemented? If things wouldn't be much different on your grunt end, why should it bother you that those of us on the other end are asking for it?
People migrate to the easiest, kill-happy professions. That's why there are so many Reaver pilots and HA users. That's why there used to be so many boomer whores running down to spawns with surge. Make infiltrators further encroach on the grunt's territory and you run the risk of making infiltrators more effective at killing infantry than grunts. And as for whether it's minor, you have no idea of how it would pan out. With such an ill-founded alteration I would oppose it based on sheer principle, but in this case I believe an imbalance could be easily created.


Anyway, this discussion is tedious and a repitition of threads ages-old. I'll be keeping my future replies to three words or less.
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Old 2004-08-21, 12:27 AM   [Ignore Me] #74
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Originally Posted by Warborn
Name calling? Yikes. It was an analogy. Your entire post revolved around you trying to tell me that you're the James MacGuyver of infiltrators and are so leet you're reet, totally ignoring everything except a little footnote in my post.
Yawn. Right, there's no insulting going on. Nothing to see here I guess.

Haha, ok. Yes, there are a couple occassions where a cloaker has been able to do something worthwhile. The odd tower here and there, an unoccupied vehicle hacked for kicks, and so on. But you're doing nothing that I haven't seen grunts do a million times. You really don't have any place in the game, similar to a sniper (and I'm a sniper myself, by the way). We're not necessary. We're just novelties, and we rarely make a significant difference, although snipers are meant to be infantry support, whereas cloakers are... well... I guess they're for the people who don't have the twitch required to grunt. Or they're there for the guys who love doing boomer runs and seeing the kill spam. But really, your role is that of a grunt, you're just very poorly equipped for the job, and so long as the role of cloakers overlaps with that of grunts, I doubt you'll ever be happy. Unless, of course, cloakers are made better at grunting than grunts, in which case I suspect you'd be just peachy.
I'm going to type something here, but it really won't be relevant. The reason for that is that no matter what I type, you'll make up what it means and an argument to counter a point I never made. So I may as well just type some words so that you can get along with arguing with your own points.

Well, let's see. The infiltrators who try to boomer me die. The ones who setup spitfires die. The ones who try and knife me die. And the ones who use an AMP die. Maybe I'm just lucky, but there doesn't seem to be any cloaker who is at all good at killing infantry outside a spawn room. It's this that makes me wonder why you guys focus on trying to kill infantry so much. Sure, now and then a few have some limited success, but for the most part you're just bringing a knife to a gun fight, and it's really ridiculous. I never imagined cloakers would be executed so poorly, but maybe one of these days that'll change and they'll get to use their stealth for something effective more often.
Weird, I thought I was McGyver. Since you're able to kill every infiltrator ever, why do you care about Dark Light changes? Holy crap, with you teaching a grunt class and Spee teaching an infil class I think I could rule this game.

It's funny that you'd play-up the infiltrators weaknesses so much when you just got done boasting about how successful you are as an infiltrator, despite Darklight being in the game as it currently is. You are aware that if Darklight were to take a big hit you'd only do better, right?
I'll use small words as I'm holding out blind hope you'll actually read what I'm writing. I want them to encourage skill. I do have success in the game. I still die to skill-less noobs who flicker the implant. I get tk'd a dozen times a night, I'm not calling for a nerf to friendly fire. I get found a handful of times due to my own errors each night, I'm not calling for the removal of Dark Light. Another handful of times each night I'm found by some dipshit who is flickering an implant and is able to completely discount a few minutes of skillful work in moments, not because he suspected I was there but because a quick flick of the mouse wheel is easier than actually paying attention. That's crap, and it brings the skill level of the game down. Would I do better? Not significantly, but if it could remove those overly frustrating deaths at the hands of shitty killwhores I'd be happier.

The manner in which you kill the enemy doesn't discount your actions from amounting to nothing more than attrition. You are doing exactly what any type of infantry does: kill the enemy. Maybe you use boomers or knives, but you're still inflicting casualties, and that's what grunts do. Perhaps you think there's a distinction, but in fact, there's no more distiction between it than if you were to have been another grunt with an AV weapon destroying the vehicle before it was able to get away to repair. This is one of the more unfortunate realities of the game, as infiltrator is actually what I started out as during Beta, though after a couple months I quickly realized there wasn't much hope for infiltrators to be just another form of grunt.
Knock yourself out with whatever you think there. I know what I do, I know what others do. Honestly it's not worth going in circles.

As I said, I don't want to see cloakers just the Reavers of infantry, throwing around skilless kills with impunity. Give them jobs other than simply killing things and the jammer grenades will allow the job to be accomplished in spite of Darklight.
The reavers of infantry? Seriously, you're getting beyond ridiculous. I can only hope you're laughing as you're typing because that's just not even worth the time it took to type.

You realize of course that the way cloakers in spawn rooms is usually solved is by someone who's already spawned going down there and using Darklight to kill the cloaker, right?
Weird, I usually solve it by not rushing to the equipment term and cutting down the running cloaker using no implant and a Suppressor. To each his own.

Your example was pretty awful. Drawing them into fire? Is that while you're behind the lines, as you put it, or what?
Oddly enough, there are different stages being behind their lines. Some are far from friendlies, some are not. Also, I'm not always lucky enough to get behind enemy lines. The example still stands, regardless of your inability to grasp it.

People migrate to the easiest, kill-happy professions. That's why there are so many Reaver pilots and HA users. That's why there used to be so many boomer whores running down to spawns with surge. Make infiltrators further encroach on the grunt's territory and you run the risk of making infiltrators more effective at killing infantry than grunts. And as for whether it's minor, you have no idea of how it would pan out. With such an ill-founded alteration I would oppose it based on sheer principle, but in this case I believe an imbalance could be easily created.
So many boomer whores running to spawns with surge? Even though the percentages who have the infil cert have stayed nearly static from launch (and even dropped for months before the surge nerf)? You're talking out your ass. There is nothing remotely close to cloakers being overpowered now, and the small Dark Light changes certainly wouldn't make some drastic unseen swing. Since you're so interested in balance, I'm sure you protested the extra damage absorption and extra armor when they changed rexo...no? You certed it instead? Interesting.

Anyway, this discussion is tedious and a repitition of threads ages-old. I'll be keeping my future replies to three words or less.
Excellent, perhaps that will allow people who actually read comments to respond to them.
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Old 2004-08-21, 01:08 AM   [Ignore Me] #75
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trying to kill whore as a cloaker is just stupid.
Actually, It's not. If what you're saying is true, sprinting down to the spawn tubes with boomers is stupid. It can be more effective then alot of things. Don't just think cloakers are for hacking, cause they aren't. I'm a 100% cloaker because thats my style of how i play. I get a lot of kills with boomers and i can kill maxes sometimes too.

Another thing they could do is... when you turn on darklight as a grunt you flashing and very easy to see. The cloaker would see this and then run away. Maybe they could have sensor shield counter darklight. So darklight would do nothing if a cloaker would have snesor shield on. That would help majorly.
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