Please do not record death counts.

EVILoHOMER · 2012-05-11, 08:52 AM

They're the worst thing in FPS these days as they cause people to camp and look after their K/D. If you just record other stats like kills, assists and other tasks they've done then that is great. You only need something like an overall skill level stat like what BF3 has, no need to add the number of deaths as well.

The problem is people do not like loss in FPS games and neither do I. There is nothing worse than having to wait longer and longer each time you want to respawn as it makes you want to sit back out of the action more. The same goes for showing the death count as people just love going sniper, camping and looking after it instead of getting objectives.

Planetside 2 will play much better if people aren't trying to look after their k/D ratio and so removing the death count will be a great idea to keep the flow of the battle going.

Kipper · 2012-05-11, 09:20 AM

Speaking as someone who is likely to die twice as often as I kill, if my usual FPS skillz are anything to go by - I must disagree.

How else am I going to know if I'm improving when I look at my stats over time?

"All time" stats are relatively meaningless but a bit of fun to look at, I suspect the most interesting thing will be looking at your stats for the last week/month and hopefully seeing things improve.

I will want to know that not only did I manage to kill more people, but I managed to die less by doing it. I will want to link it to my play-time so that if I play for 10 hours one week, and 5 hours the next - I can still compare KD per hour as opposed to overall KD.

Don't worry, as soon as the API is released, I'm all over it

Gonefshn · 2012-05-11, 11:03 AM

Asking for them not to record your overall K/D is highly unrealistic but I must say I do agree with your statement.

I find I enjoyed shooters of the old days more before you couldn't see an overall K/D count because I just focused on enjoying the game. I personally dislike players in team based games (BF3 sadly is the best example) who play for their K/D. Obviously it's their choice but it often results in people staying put and farming kills at choke points instead of moving forward and pushing objectives. People don't want to run through doors or down dangerous hallways because if they do so most likely they will get pwnd far more often then land a kill by the opposing teams chokepoint campers.

Having K/D can be useful and important, for some of the reasons Kipper mentioned. But I have to agree that simply showing players a Lifetime/Career K/D count changes the way they play the game. Or at least it does for many players. If Score was the only thing that was shown, or objectives completed or something similar, then players would all clammer to complete the objectives instead of find ways to get kills. I do sort of disagree with Kipper because your K/D and seeing your ratio improve over time isn't really showing that you have improved in a game like Planetside. In Call of Duty sure it's about all that matters. However, in Planetside the only way to measure your effectiveness is how you affect the flow of battle and the role you play. The best way to improve I would say is to figure out better strategy and focus on how to work together to acheive the goals. I will concede that improving your K/D and being a better twitch shooter will help you complete goals and objectives. So yes a better K/D can mean you are improving but that sort of improvement will happen whether you know it or not just by playing.

I know having lifetime K/D can frustrate me sometimes because in a small way I can't shake it makes me feel punished for rushing objectives/flags/control points whatever. Not because fundamentally the game is designed so that rushing objectives will get you killed, but because your dealing with other players who will farm at objectives rather than moving in themselves. Even in games without a K/D tracker players will exploit objectives as player magnets and farm kills. But atleast without K/D you don't feel punished for it.

I'd love to return to the old days where the game was just the game and there wasn't a 10 page report on every little detail of how well you are playing but thats a dream that wont come true I am quite sure.

MacXXcaM · 2012-05-11, 11:08 AM

I disagree with the OP.
While I certainly don't play for kills only I do want to have more kills than deaths in order to prove myself that I'm quite a good player.
And I certainly don't camp alot nor do I think that that's a successful technique in Planetside.

Gonefshn
I find I enjoyed shooters of the old days more before you couldn't see an overall K/D count because I just focused on enjoying the game.

Now, when would these "old days" be? I can recall having both kills and deaths listed in Half-Life 1 and Quake 3 Arena if I'm not mistaken.

edit:
Oh, and please note that Planetside unlike any other FPS is a massive and persistent war game. I tend to think that every technique that helps you "win" this war is legal. There's just soo many different possibilities to play an active role in supporting your faction that I couldn't care less about "campers".

Zekeen · 2012-05-11, 11:22 AM

I seriously doubt there will be a death count, so rest assured. The dev team is the kind to show only positives, not negatives.

Purple · 2012-05-11, 11:24 AM

i would not like them to record K/D. for the players who care about their stats they take less risks. i think that during the current game session you should be able to see your K/D but they should not be recorded outside of this.

Gonefshn · 2012-05-11, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by MacXXcaM

Now, when would these "old days" be? I can recall having both kills and deaths listed in Half-Life 1 and Quake 3 Arena if I'm not mistaken.

edit:
Oh, and please note that Planetside unlike any other FPS is a massive and persistent war game. I tend to think that every technique that helps you "win" this war is legal. There's just soo many different possibilities to play an active role in supporting your faction that I couldn't care less about "campers".

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on Half Life 1 or Quake 3 Arena multiplayer. Do you mean they counted your K/D during the match and displayed it during and after the game was over? Or do you mean you could literally look up your K/D total for all the matches you ever played?

Those games may have had K/D counts in the old days, but my point still stands that back in the day it was less common. I used to love Command and Conquer Renegade (The most unrealistic and ridiculous shooter ever) Because it was ALL about playing as a team and coordinating. If you didn't band together with your teammates in that game and attack with coordination you would always have a stalemate. That game counted your K/D during a match but there was no way to see your Lifetime K/D. I found that this helped people focus on winning the match rather than on their own performance as a Kill to Death ratio.

I actually agree with you though on your final statement, you raise a fair point. Since the game never ends camping is actually a much more valid strategy because sometimes the game is as much about keeping people from advancing as it is about pushing forward. Obviously kills matter and contribute heavily to the flow of combat. So I agree every playstyle is valid if not neccesary.

I would only argue one point. People need to be bold and aggresive and push objectives especially in a game like planetside. Though every role is valid and important including campers and defenders etc. You need the brave soldiers who are willing to die to push objectives. Of course your going to have those players either way but having lifetime K/D will certainly take a crop of players away from aggresive risky roles who would otherwise do so.

There are plenty of people out there who will choose not to take risks for the sole reason of preserving their K/D. That is all I am trying to say. While it is a useful and interesting statistic, it by it's very nature puts a focus on your own performance in a game that I would hope is meant to be focused on the performance of your empire.

Xyntech · 2012-05-11, 01:29 PM

Downplaying K/D ratio I wouldn't mind, but I don't think they should take death away entirely as a stat. It should be one of dozens of stats that are tracked.

It's good to try to encourage players not to play too cautiously, but there will always be those players. At some point you have to just stop worrying about it and consider all of the other players.

It's like people who complain about violent video games or movies. While most people are not motivated to commit violence because of them, there will always be a few deranged lunatics who will take them as inspiration. We can't base our society around avoiding provoking an already deranged person into violence, especially considering that something non violent may be just as likely to set them off.

Likewise, we shouldn't have death stats removed entirely just to try to avoid making obsessive players play too cautiously, because they will probably play that way regardless.

Kipper · 2012-05-11, 03:03 PM

If people want to play for their overall KD - if that's what they need, I don't see the issue.

Others will use kills only, still others will go with objectives captured, support roles might go with heals/repairs done and yet others will measure time well spent simply by the amount of fun had. One stat does not rule them all.

Most people will quickly get the idea that Planetside is persistent and be motivated to go attack/defend stuff - and if they don't...so?

Improving your KD doesn't indicate you're a lone wolf either - coordinating in a team should naturally deliver improved scores as you have backup and support.

MacXXcaM · 2012-05-11, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Gonefshn

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on Half Life 1 or Quake 3 Arena multiplayer. Do you mean they counted your K/D during the match and displayed it during and after the game was over? Or do you mean you could literally look up your K/D total for all the matches you ever played?

First one. Actually it's the case in most FPS I ever played. I think Red Orchestra put away with it since it wanted to stress the "team play idea" which always felt artificial to me. People want to know how good they are. Why not let them?

Zekeen
I seriously doubt there will be a death count, so rest assured. The dev team is the kind to show only positives, not negatives.

Why do you seriously doubt it? It's a pretty normal feature in FPS and in fact Higby already showed to us that you can check up your K/D ratio.

I think we need to handle those players who just want to get many kills, they are in every game. Most of us will certainly want to win the battles for bases.

Baneblade · 2012-05-11, 03:40 PM

I think KPD isn't really all that useful a stat in a game like PlanetSide. I would say KPH (Kill Per Hour) would be a more useful stat.

Gonefshn · 2012-05-11, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by MacXXcaM

First one. Actually it's the case in most FPS I ever played. I think Red Orchestra put away with it since it wanted to stress the "team play idea" which always felt artificial to me. People want to know how good they are. Why not let them?

Why do you seriously doubt it? It's a pretty normal feature in FPS and in fact Higby already showed to us that you can check up your K/D ratio.

The only thing I'll disagree with is that people collectively want to know how good they are. I speak as someone who would prefer no K/D ratio. And my best bud who plays all shooters with me including PS1 always felt the same way.

But let me state. I feel including K/D ratio is almost essential because any modern FPS player is going to expect those in depth statistics. The first thing I said in this thread is that I thought not including it was unrealistic. For the game as a whole, regarding bringing in a mass audience and retaining those numbers, K/D is basically essential. Planetside 1 was always a niche game with a cult audience. PS2 intends to break into the masses and I hope it does. My thoughts on K/D ratios are meant to be my opinion and preferences. It's impossible to deny that it's existence causes a good amount of players to play the game with it in mind. But does that make a HUGE difference, no not really. In my perfect world stats and things wouldn't matter and everyone would just play the game. That, however, just isn't realistic anymore and I get that. K/D will be in the game and for good reason.

Kipper · 2012-05-11, 04:37 PM

Right - so - if you aren't interested in stats - don't look at them. Don't try to deny them to people who do want to look at them!

Gonefshn · 2012-05-11, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Kipper

Right - so - if you aren't interested in stats - don't look at them. Don't try to deny them to people who do want to look at them!

Exactly.

Neurotoxin · 2012-05-11, 05:59 PM

I disagree, and I even pull out the 1 star rating to express my disagreement. The most I'd ask for from the PS2 team is a "stat reset" feature for players who are too embarrassed about their KDR.

Some people aren't killers anyway. Medics heal and revive, engineers repair, I'm sure there will be vehicles where the pilot/driver has no guns whatsoever. Not every role in the game is about killing.

Kill to Death Ratio isn't even what I care about. Tasks and / or assists per death means more to me. If I repair 5 tanks that kill 20 people, I've assisted the battle greatly. If I hack an important doorway in the middle of a firefight, that's an important task completed. There should be more to the ratio that represents total player success than merely kills. However, deaths matter in this because there is also a factor of preparedness and situational awareness that goes into playing. Going for cover to fire back at infantry instead of completing the repair task, not rushing headfirst into a covered doorway to try to save someone, these are decisions that a player must make to stay alive while completing various tasks.

Plus I want a heatmap of all player deaths across each continent, in order to see who gets pwnt more in what areas. I suppose that could be a separate function than tracking individual deaths.