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View Poll Results: Dual wield pistols for PS2
Yes 15 14.71%
No 72 70.59%
Have to see it first in beta 15 14.71%
Voters: 102. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 2012-04-02, 12:54 PM   [Ignore Me] #106
Hypevosa
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Re: Dual wield pistols yes or no?


Originally Posted by Bravix View Post
Pistols aren't supposed to be a primary weapon though, they SHOULD be weaker than other weapons. They're pistols.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't be useful, just not AS useful.
That's why you're giving up a primary weapon though to just have 2 pistols - or did you miss that part of the idea?
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Old 2012-04-02, 01:50 PM   [Ignore Me] #107
Sirisian
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Re: Dual wield pistols yes or no?


Originally Posted by Hypevosa View Post
It takes more skill to hit a moving target the size of pop can once at a few hundred yards than to hit a moving punching bag twice. I'd also argue it takes more skill to hit a pop can that's standing still at a thousand yards than the moving punching bag twice at the same distance unless they're constantly changing accelerations, in which case it becomes 100% luck on the second shot since you're just making a bet as to where they'll be in the second it takes your bullet to travel there.
I understand what you want and I suggested it a while back. Proportional damage based on range. Another person also suggested that one-hit kills would only be possible on moving targets. Putting those together in a believable system would be tolerable. The problem I have is using a weapon outside of it main function. That is using a sniper at close range and hitting someone in the head. That plays into the "luck" category for most players where the distinction between twitch skill and a random shot is ambiguous.

I don't want to derail the thread, but basically the one-hit kill concept takes a lot of gameplay changes to make it work in a fair way.

Originally Posted by Hypevosa View Post
Your 2 hit system becomes one of luck, not skill at the distances I'm hoping to reach out and touch someone's nose from, that's why I have quarrels with it.
Hitting something once from a far range could be luck or skill. Hitting something twice is less about luck and more about skill. You really need to take into account if a target is moving. You make an assumption that the player is already zigzagging. That's not going to be the case. Even in the GDC video we saw a lot of cases where a player is just sitting at at a doorway. Being able to line up your cross-hairs at a doorway at height level and fire bullets in randomly for your "skilled" hits is too tempting in a game like Planetside. Which is precisely why if you played the first you'd realize why the bolt driver was designed as a 2-hit weapon.

That and to a person that is just running across a field and is one-hit that isn't skilled shot. It's on the level of fun in an FPS as getting hit by a flail randomly with no way to respond to it.
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Old 2012-04-02, 02:58 PM   [Ignore Me] #108
Hypevosa
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Re: Dual wield pistols yes or no?


Originally Posted by Sirisian View Post
Hitting something once from a far range could be luck or skill. Hitting something twice is less about luck and more about skill. You really need to take into account if a target is moving. You make an assumption that the player is already zigzagging. That's not going to be the case. Even in the GDC video we saw a lot of cases where a player is just sitting at at a doorway. Being able to line up your cross-hairs at a doorway at height level and fire bullets in randomly for your "skilled" hits is too tempting in a game like Planetside. Which is precisely why if you played the first you'd realize why the bolt driver was designed as a 2-hit weapon.

That and to a person that is just running across a field and is one-hit that isn't skilled shot. It's on the level of fun in an FPS as getting hit by a flail randomly with no way to respond to it.
Hitting something the size of a pop can once from a thousand yards is an extreme level of luck. Hitting someone a second time (who realizes they're being sniped) is 100% luck if they aren't in a situation where their movement is restricted since you're always just guessing as to how they'll attempt to dodge your shot. The video earlier in the thread showed people on a restricted walk way for example, whose movements are fairly predictable for that reason (it also showed a recoil-less rifle with no need for target reacquisition, and not the rifle I'm wanting for 1 hit ability). The videos I've seen of PS2 have involved a ton of open spaces, meaning alot of random movement for dodging, and the second shot being all about getting lucky.

Getting 1 hit is only a problem if you're stupid and keep acting like there isn't a sniper around. Stand still for a long time where you just died? you deserve to die again. Keep attempting to shoot at them from behind cover despite them being too far away? you deserve to die again. Keep trying to be a lone wolf who's loud and obvious? Yep.

A squad of players is enough people to keep any sniper busy but unable to stop the flow, and all it takes is one good counter sniper to put them out of business quickly. People who learn the lay of terrain will also be an effective counter for snipers since they can get behind them or close enough to smoke them out for a kill or run them off. A single person in an air vehicle could also be called on for support if necessary.

In a one on one perspective, 1 hits may not seem fair, but looking at it from a global perspective with the sheer number of players and the sheer number of options that will thwart or even end the threat of an effective sniper, it shouldn't be a problem unless no one is thinking or communicating.
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Old 2012-04-02, 04:22 PM   [Ignore Me] #109
Talek Krell
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Re: Dual wield pistols yes or no?


Originally Posted by Hypevosa View Post
If it's 2 hit kills, I guess I'll just find a partner and we'll practice putting rounds into people together
I'm glad we were able to come to an amicable agreement on the matter.

I can tell you're a person that enjoys a real challenge, and I'm sure you'll find that working as a member of a sharpshooter team will pose difficulties in communication, coordination, sustained accuracy, timing, and enemy identification and movement prediction far above and beyond simply aiming your cursor at the right place and instantly killing a guy who couldn't reasonably have been expected to know you existed.
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Old 2012-04-02, 06:33 PM   [Ignore Me] #110
Bravix
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Re: Dual wield pistols yes or no?


Originally Posted by Hypevosa View Post
That's why you're giving up a primary weapon though to just have 2 pistols - or did you miss that part of the idea?

No, I guess I just missed the part where there's any logic behind that.

Since you seem to agree that pistols shouldn't be as good as a primary weapon, why would you give up your primary to have two (relatively) weak pistols at substantially decreased accuracy?
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Old 2012-04-03, 01:42 AM   [Ignore Me] #111
Hypevosa
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Re: Dual wield pistols yes or no?


Originally Posted by Talek Krell View Post
I'm glad we were able to come to an amicable agreement on the matter.

I can tell you're a person that enjoys a real challenge, and I'm sure you'll find that working as a member of a sharpshooter team will pose difficulties in communication, coordination, sustained accuracy, timing, and enemy identification and movement prediction far above and beyond simply aiming your cursor at the right place and instantly killing a guy who couldn't reasonably have been expected to know you existed.
As long as there's actual communication, and our pings aren't horrendous, it really shouldn't be hard at all and will amount to 1 hit kills - we are talking about hitting a punching bag now and not a pop can.

Originally Posted by Bravix View Post
No, I guess I just missed the part where there's any logic behind that.

Since you seem to agree that pistols shouldn't be as good as a primary weapon, why would you give up your primary to have two (relatively) weak pistols at substantially decreased accuracy?
In the close range game I see it as dropping a shield and killing faster when in close range (not mid range) than an SMG since the accuracy of the SMG is for naught within 15 feet, and dual wielding at that range shouldn't result in tons of missed shots. A shotgun would still be more effective, but you lose its usefulness once the target has begun to flee, where having the dual pistols you could still ping them due to the higher firing rate, and switch to single faster than putting away a shotgun for the kill shots once they're far enough away.

Basically, the shotgun dominates close range, the dual pistols dominate close range changing to midrange, and smgs dominate midrange. The dual pistols kinda fill the transition between close and midrange due to their capabilities.
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Old 2012-04-03, 09:23 AM   [Ignore Me] #112
Hmr85
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Re: Dual wield pistols yes or no?


I can tell you right now. If I am going to play the close to mid range game. I am going to be using either a Shotgun or a SMG. The dual pistol are completely useless and honestly serve no purpose when you have 2 other weapons in the game that can not only fulfill both those roles in the game but do it better.
If you wanna dual wield pistols go back to COD.
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Old 2012-04-03, 12:03 PM   [Ignore Me] #113
Sirisian
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Re: Dual wield pistols yes or no?


Originally Posted by Hmr85 View Post
If you wanna dual wield pistols go back to COD.
Were pistols in the game you're thinking of useless compared to other weapons? Genuinely curious on their implementation compared to say a shotgun. Were they completely overpowered that everyone used them or were they underpowered to the point no one ever touched them?
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Old 2012-04-03, 12:35 PM   [Ignore Me] #114
Bonius
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Re: Dual wield pistols yes or no?


The benefit of dual-wielding pistols is instantly neglected by any other weapon on the field unless you're wielding 2x the equivalent of desert eagle, wich still looks pale in comparison to any common SMG, assault rifle or shotgun.

Shotguns have higher damage output
SMG's have higher rate of fire and range
AR's have higher rate of fire and range

The only situation I can see dual-wielding being a near-viable option is in extreme CQC, in wich case the combination would be vastly inferior to toys like the flamethrower, shotgun/VS equivalent and the one-shot-kill knife.
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Old 2012-04-04, 04:42 PM   [Ignore Me] #115
Hypevosa
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Re: Dual wield pistols yes or no?


Originally Posted by Hmr85 View Post
I can tell you right now. If I am going to play the close to mid range game. I am going to be using either a Shotgun or a SMG. The dual pistol are completely useless and honestly serve no purpose when you have 2 other weapons in the game that can not only fulfill both those roles in the game but do it better.

If you wanna dual wield pistols go back to COD.
If you can't understand the trade-offs and benefits I've already elaborated on throughout the thread, I won't be able to make you see through the brick wall you've put between yourself and the idea.

I'd rather use dual pistols than a shotgun, unless we're talking about an AA-12 style automatic shotgun, because I feel I can dance around someone with a slow firing rate enough to kill them before they kill me in that situation. I also think they would be better than an SMG at that range (again, assuming higher caliber), and, if I get the jump on them, I can probably drop their shield and just finish them off by switching to using one pistol if they move too far away for the dual wielding to be effective.

I also would just feel more satisfied than using a shotgun for close range - I've always enjoyed employing agility and acrobatics in close range combat to dupe people.

COD has nothing to do with my want to dual wield pistols (I actually never bothered to get akimbo upgrades in COD), I just see it as having merit in this universe, and I think it would be fun.
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Old 2012-04-04, 07:00 PM   [Ignore Me] #116
Metalsheep
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Re: Dual wield pistols yes or no?


I believe Counter Strike did Dual Wielding way before CoD, as well as a few games like 007 and Perfect Dark. But the real game that brought Dual Wielding into common FPS's is Halo 2 i believe. And In almost all of those games and shooters since (Goldeneye and Perfect Dark exempt, since you could Dual Rifles sometimes), Dual Wielding has always been overshadowed by Rifle weapons that fill their Niech better than dual wielding. Dual wielding would be a useless feature to add to Planetside 2 unfortunately. The close quarters fighters will be sporting REXO and their HA weapons, or a MAX suit. And the other lighter classes will have some form of Shotgun or SMG, instantly eclipsing the effectivness of Dual Wielding most weapons.

If we have a 1-shot instant knife, it will eclipse every CQB weapon in the game anyways.
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Old 2012-04-05, 04:12 AM   [Ignore Me] #117
Hmr85
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Re: Dual wield pistols yes or no?


Originally Posted by Hypevosa View Post
If you can't understand the trade-offs and benefits I've already elaborated on throughout the thread, I won't be able to make you see through the brick wall you've put between yourself and the idea.

I'd rather use dual pistols than a shotgun, unless we're talking about an AA-12 style automatic shotgun, because I feel I can dance around someone with a slow firing rate enough to kill them before they kill me in that situation. I also think they would be better than an SMG at that range (again, assuming higher caliber), and, if I get the jump on them, I can probably drop their shield and just finish them off by switching to using one pistol if they move too far away for the dual wielding to be effective.

I also would just feel more satisfied than using a shotgun for close range - I've always enjoyed employing agility and acrobatics in close range combat to dupe people.

COD has nothing to do with my want to dual wield pistols (I actually never bothered to get akimbo upgrades in COD), I just see it as having merit in this universe, and I think it would be fun.
The spread on the shotgun is going to kill you long before you even get a chance to get enough shots off on somebody. I noticed that your are a VS player. Let me put it this way. Expect to see lots of NC players running with the JH (Jack Hammer) in close range combat inside the Facilitys. I can tell you right now your not going to win.

Another thing I think you need to take into consideration. This isn't going to be 1v1 like your typical BF or COD game. Its not gonna be just one guy sitting there by his lonesome. Its gonna be 10+ guys realistically all with JH's in their hand ready to make Swiss cheese out of you. The dual pistols really have no place in this game. I'm trying to look at it from your point of view but they just have no place. There is no role for them to filll that isn't already taken. You already have other weapons for close to medium range that are going to be a lot more effective. You don't bring pistols to a indoor fight, you bring a shotgun. You don't have to be as accurate and the spread on the pellets are a lot more forgiving.

If your doing CY fighting your gonna bring a SMG or your primary AR. It just going to kill better. You also need to remember that the bulk majority of the players you see inside the facility's in CQB are going to be wearing REXO and MAX armor. They are not going to be easy to take down. Why limit your self to 2 pistols that are doing mediocre damage to these guys when you can carry a bigger boom stick that's gonna get the job done more efficiently.

Last edited by Hmr85; 2012-04-05 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 2012-04-05, 04:37 PM   [Ignore Me] #118
Hypevosa
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Re: Dual wield pistols yes or no?


Originally Posted by Hmr85 View Post
The spread on the shotgun is going to kill you long before you even get a chance to get enough shots off on somebody. I noticed that your are a VS player. Let me put it this way. Expect to see lots of NC players running with the JH (Jack Hammer) in close range combat inside the Facilitys. I can tell you right now your not going to win.

Another thing I think you need to take into consideration. This isn't going to be 1v1 like your typical BF or COD game. Its not gonna be just one guy sitting there by his lonesome. Its gonna be 10+ guys realistically all with JH's in their hand ready to make Swiss cheese out of you. The dual pistols really have no place in this game. I'm trying to look at it from your point of view but they just have no place. There is no role for them to filll that isn't already taken. You already have other weapons for close to medium range that are going to be a lot more effective. You don't bring pistols to a indoor fight, you bring a shotgun. You don't have to be as accurate and the spread on the pellets are a lot more forgiving.

If your doing CY fighting your gonna bring a SMG or your primary AR. It just going to kill better. You also need to remember that the bulk majority of the players you see inside the facility's in CQB are going to be wearing REXO and MAX armor. They are not going to be easy to take down. Why limit your self to 2 pistols that are doing mediocre damage to these guys when you can carry a bigger boom stick that's gonna get the job done more efficiently.
See, I'm coming from an infiltrator's perspective with the dual wield. I want to get in close and find lone people or a small group of 2 or 3 on patrol and take them out, and the camo would let me get close enough for that to kill them up close and finish them off if they run. A light assault who made proper use of their vertical space might also be able to get the jump on such patrols (pun intended), and will futher be able to make good use of it since they have the special grenades that obscure peoples' ability to find them and retaliate. It's the reason I mentioned earlier that having slight mobility bonuses such as no turn speed limit and a very small speed bonus (like 5%) and having a 2.5x larger ammo count would be needed to really make it viable.

In a fight where you have a squad, and you have people on the multiple weapon types, the dual pistols don't really have much advantage aside from perhaps suppression if the hits are heavy enough compared to the smg to make it something you want to avoid - but for the guy you send in as a distraction, or your lone wolf, or the person who simply likes to ambush people, it could be very enjoyable.

I'm also assuming we don't have an instant melee button though, and have to specifically select a knife if we want to engage in melee combat - otherwise that makes the dual pistols less effective if someone can just spam a melee button.

In terms of my play, I want to do 2 things. I will likely focus as an anti-air fighter pilot, and focus on being a sniper when I'm on the ground. I like being a guardian to other players - I was that guy that would pick up the hunting rifle in left 4 dead because it gave me the best ability to save people from hunters and smokers. I may also dabble in being a heavy assault guy since those look like they may be fun - and I've a history of being a rather good tank driver in other games, and really enjoyed being the driver of the 3 person VS suit in lost planet 2, so I may pick up tank driving too depending.

Last edited by Hypevosa; 2012-04-05 at 04:39 PM.
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