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Old 2012-07-20, 09:02 AM   [Ignore Me] #61
Figment
Lieutenant General
 
Re: Dedicated driver certification for MBT


It is completely related, for how can you handle the issue separately if they're in the same game, the same context, the same environment?

If you change something, you affect both balances at the same time. So you can't really handle them separately, but need an integral design vision.


Again, you're looking at the PER UNIT balance and under the consideration that nothing statwise changes between the two situations, you'd be right. Hence why this certification as proposed is sorry to say, ridiculous. It can't be balanced for both situations, your setup can't treat them separately! IF they were different units or IF you could control the statistics of the units under the various manpower circumstances, THEN you can balance for both situations.

Otherwise, you indeed can't. My point is it's not worth discussing or attempting a non-balanceable situation. The suggested certification is therefore worthless as it does not address the solo MBT issue. It doesn't provide a preference playstyle as it just introduces a broken, non-functional, underpowered and therefore non-viable playstyle "choice".


As long as you don't treat manpower seriously or provide serious, significant combat advantages, there's no point in adding it to the game.







To make an analogy, you need a new computer screen. What you need is a larger colour screen because you want to do graphics design.

What you get is a choice between one larger black and white screen or two smaller full colour screens. You want to use the bigger screen, but nobody gives you the option to get one you can actually use, since nobody provides you with a colour screen - even though you know those can exist.

A bigger screen would be excellent for graphic design and would definitely be a prefered size for any graphics artist, but it's absolutely pointless to get a bigger screen without the colour options.

You're giving us the option to get a bigger black and white screen with the "compromise". Your competitor, a guy who works with one smaller colour screen and isn't interested in finding a solution that works for you, then says "fine, just take the bigger, B/W screen, you'll be fine, it's after all bigger, isn't it?" (ie. Ratstomper). We're the ones saying "it's pointless for you to get a larger, B/W screen, because yes it's larger, but you won't be able to compete properly with the other guy until you get one that is both larger and full colour - till then you're better off getting two smaller colour screens, even if it's slightly more costly".

Last edited by Figment; 2012-07-20 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 2012-07-20, 09:45 AM   [Ignore Me] #62
Lumberchuk
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Re: Dedicated driver certification for MBT


Originally Posted by Figment View Post
Lumber, we're not saying that the individual unit gains advantages. We completely agree with you on that. You don't need to repeat your point.

But you lose other advantages and that cancels out very, very swiftly.

Maybe I'm not making myself clear in my posts, if so I apologies. The scenarios I am describing are in regards to a 2 vs 2 player (by your definition) battle. One side has 1 tank with 2 players in it and are using the suggested cert, the other has 2 tanks individually manned. If the drivers are equal skill and the vehicles have equal stats, I believe that the result say 100 battle like this will be close to 50-50. As long as you can keep the two tanks at range, the single 2 person tank should be victorious 90% of the time assuming the tanks handle similar to BF3. The 2 tank team will be victorious in situations that are closer range where they can effectively flank, or if both sides fight statically. This works for a side-grade or cert because it does not add power, it caters to a different play-style. A play-style that many people I think would like to be able to use.


Originally Posted by Figment View Post
Here's a list:

(Dis)advantages of ONE unit with TWO gunners over the same, ONE unit with ONE gunner

Note: A unit is described as any player operated avatar in game: tank, infantry, aircraft, etc. A player is any real life person operating as an unit that will be in game at the same time anyway.

The first comparison is just the effect on the single tank.

PER UNIT (driver=gunner + gunner vs driver=gunner, both in one unit)
Situational awareness per unit: doubled and a little (gunner not needing to watch road, two sets of eyes)
Variety of potential perspectives per unit: Equal
Number of potential units: Equal
Enemy firepower dispersion: Equal
Hitpoints per unit: Equal
Firepower per unit: Doubled
AA options available: Equal (no need to switch)
Resource cost per unit: Equal
Maneuvrability per unit: Equal
Tactical options per unit: Equal
Expected lifespan per unit: Slight increase
Execution of available tactical options: Slight increase in efficiency

ETC.
Yes but that's my point, all it is is a list (and a very nice one at that ), Pure stats aren't the only that matters in term of balance. I think you are severely underestimating the advantage of firing on the move. I could be completely wrong as well since we will need to play the game before we can make a conclusion, but from the looks of it, the tanks operate almost identically to BF3.

In BF3 tank vs tank usually consists of 2 tanks statically shelling each other from long range with use of cover. The reason being is that you cannot effectively drive and shoot at the same time. A mobile tank that is able to zig zag in an open field will be a nightmare to hit, and will be impossible if you yourself are also moving. However in BF3 this is rather useless as you lack the room on most maps to accomplish these manoeuvres, and since you yourself will also be unable to aim efficiently and avoid obstacle.

But again all of this is speculation, and we will have to wait till we get in game before we can judge really (though I still enjoy discussing it because it gives me something to do while I wait for my invite :P).

Last edited by Lumberchuk; 2012-07-20 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 2012-07-20, 09:48 AM   [Ignore Me] #63
Figment
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Re: Dedicated driver certification for MBT


Oh no, I don't underestimate that advantage, but I don't want to blow up that advantage to epic Rambo proportions either.


And leading a target isn't that hard btw. Some players have difficulty in World of Tanks with tanks driving at 67 kph. I've regularly sniped Mosquito's travelling at afterburn speeds with a Fury as they passed by. So I have absolutely no trouble leading such targets. Usualy, in WoT, I hit moving targets on either the first or second shot, my accuracy is around 70% for a normal tank or tank destroyer, because I don't care if I miss a couple shots. Friends of mine have an accuracy up to 80%. Mosts of the misses are down to the cone of fire system (especially while moving yourself), not due to bad leading.

BF3 is porlly compared though because tanks aren't as much throw away vehicles due to not being as massively available or used in numbers in that game. WoT is IMO the better comparison.

Last edited by Figment; 2012-07-20 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 2012-07-27, 04:09 AM   [Ignore Me] #64
Azren
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Re: Dedicated driver certification for MBT


I'm bumping this in hopes for more input.
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Old 2012-07-27, 07:35 AM   [Ignore Me] #65
Lumberchuk
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Re: Dedicated driver certification for MBT


Originally Posted by Figment View Post
And leading a target isn't that hard btw. Some players have difficulty in World of Tanks with tanks driving at 67 kph. Usualy, in WoT, I hit moving targets on either the first or second shot, my accuracy is around 70% for a normal tank or tank destroyer, because I don't care if I miss a couple shots. Friends of mine have an accuracy up to 80%. Mosts of the misses are down to the cone of fire system (especially while moving yourself), not due to bad leading.

BF3 is porlly compared though because tanks aren't as much throw away vehicles due to not being as massively available or used in numbers in that game. WoT is IMO the better comparison.
World of tanks isn't the best comparison either though, situational awareness wise. As soon as a tank is in LOS of any friendly tank you see where he is, this is not the case in PS2, also there is no combined arms to worry about in that game. Not to mention nearly all shots are taken when you yourself are stationary in WoT with the exception of some medium or light tank close range battles.

But I still think we need to test it in game, so if they just put the cert in, it can be balanced in beta. And as for magriders, just switch the guns, make the gun on top the powerful anti tank one and the forward facing one, anti infantry/anti air.
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Old 2012-07-27, 08:31 AM   [Ignore Me] #66
Baneblade
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Re: Dedicated driver certification for MBT


What if it turns out there will be no such certification?
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Old 2012-07-27, 11:58 AM   [Ignore Me] #67
Gonefshn
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Re: Dedicated driver certification for MBT


Originally Posted by Baneblade View Post
What if it turns out there will be no such certification?


for sure
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Old 2012-07-27, 01:59 PM   [Ignore Me] #68
Lumberchuk
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Re: Dedicated driver certification for MBT


Originally Posted by Baneblade View Post
What if it turns out there will be no such certification?
Its very possible that it won't exist and if that's the case oh well. I think you can still switch out the turret on top to be AV to double you anti tank capabilities which will give a designated gunner of sorts but its not really a game breaker for me. Just something I would really like to be in the game.
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Old 2012-07-27, 04:52 PM   [Ignore Me] #69
Baneblade
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Re: Dedicated driver certification for MBT


I've been hearing rumors that SOE pulled the plug on this idea already. I'm not sure if it was because of the Magrider or not.
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Old 2012-07-28, 01:54 AM   [Ignore Me] #70
Rivenshield
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Re: Dedicated driver certification for MBT


Originally Posted by Baneblade View Post
I've been hearing rumors that SOE pulled the plug on this idea already. I'm not sure if it was because of the Magrider or not.
The TR should get it gratis, out of the box. The other two empires should not even be able to cert it.

a) It conforms to what Higby told us in the factions rundown video; that the TR vehicles and weapons systems 'require more players to operate them.' Skip to 0:45:


b) The Prowler's gift is speed. Speed equals mobility. If we're gonna make full use of it, we need to have the *option* of going full tilt while not worrying about driving into trees and off cliffs.

If this makes anyone butthurt, and the fact that we get half the number of tanks for the same number of players isn't 'balancing' enough.... well.... in that case I want a howitzer cert for the Prowler so I can make it more like the Vanguard, and both TR and NC should have pontoon certs so our tanks can float. Then we can all be balanced and equal and stuff.

We need to exaggerate the differences between the empires' equipment so the tactics differ. This is an excellent opportunity to do just that.

Last edited by Rivenshield; 2012-07-28 at 02:00 AM.
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Old 2012-07-28, 01:57 AM   [Ignore Me] #71
Azren
Sergeant Major
 
Re: Dedicated driver certification for MBT


Originally Posted by Baneblade View Post
What if it turns out there will be no such certification?
I'm pretty sure it's not in yet. They can still implement it.
Unless SoE wants to throw dirt in the PS1 players' face, they will implement it.

Originally Posted by Baneblade View Post
I've been hearing rumors that SOE pulled the plug on this idea already. I'm not sure if it was because of the Magrider or not.
Source?

Originally Posted by Rivenshield View Post
The TR should get it. The other two empires should not.

a) It conforms to what Higby told us in the factions rundown video; that the TR vehicles and weapons systems 'require more players to operate them.' Skip to 0:45:

b) The Prowler's gift is speed. Speed equals mobility. If we're gonna make full use of it, we need to have the *option* of going full tilt while not worrying about driving into trees and off cliffs.

If this makes anyone butthurt, and the fact that we get half the number of tanks for the same number of players isn't 'balancing' enough.... well.... in that case I want a howitzer cert for the Prowler so I can make it more like the Vanguard, and both TR and NC should have pontoon certs so our tanks can float. Then we can all be balanced and equal and stuff.

We need to exaggerate the differences between the empires' equipment so the tactics differ. This is an excellent opportunity to do just that.
Well aren't you a charmer? This is an all or nothing deal. It is not for the TR only.
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Old 2012-07-28, 02:03 AM   [Ignore Me] #72
Rivenshield
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Re: Dedicated driver certification for MBT


Originally Posted by Azren View Post
Well aren't you a charmer? This is an all or nothing deal. It is not for the TR only.
Sorry if I sound grabby, especially since this is my first input in a longass thread, but I explained my line of reasoning.
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Old 2012-07-28, 02:09 AM   [Ignore Me] #73
Azren
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Re: Dedicated driver certification for MBT


Originally Posted by Rivenshield View Post
Sorry if I sound grabby, especially since this is my first input in a longass thread, but I explained my line of reasoning.
You explained pretty well how anyone who disagrees with your idea is butthurt.

The blance of this idea was discussed before, read up on the thoughts regarding it.
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Old 2012-07-28, 02:22 AM   [Ignore Me] #74
Rivenshield
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Re: Dedicated driver certification for MBT


Originally Posted by Azren View Post
You explained pretty well how anyone who disagrees with your idea is butthurt.
Sorry if I came off as abrasive. I'll review the thread again.
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Old 2012-07-28, 02:47 AM   [Ignore Me] #75
Gugabalog
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Re: Dedicated driver certification for MBT


Its 3 am so I didnt read the full thread but did read several pages.

I feel the 3 seater should completely supplant the 2 seater, period. Didn't play PS1 here so this isn't vet bias.

Aside from the obvious improvement in accuracy of the main gun, it would punish seat switchers by forcing them to give up their movement to fire. Tanks are not one man machines. Tanks take whole crews to operate. A gunner, a commander, a driver, a secondary gunner, a loader. A 3 man tank is far from demandign too much. It is still a simplification.

I'm too tired to completely flesh out my arguement but I feel this way solely to punish zergers and to not allow them to be effective in a tank. Planetside is coop not lol720codwinbitchezzz!111!

Any and all solo capability should be disadvantaged. Period.
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