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Old 2012-09-06, 08:22 AM   [Ignore Me] #31
Baneblade
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Re: The Beginning of the End of the Republican Party?


I'm betting election fraud is worse than assumed as well. Just because it isn't reported... doesn't mean it didn't happen.
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Old 2012-09-06, 10:54 AM   [Ignore Me] #32
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Re: The Beginning of the End of the Republican Party?


Originally Posted by Baneblade View Post
I'm betting election fraud is worse than assumed as well. Just because it isn't reported... doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Therein lies the problem.

We are "betting" on the backs of a large percentage of people who will not be able to vote on the possibility that election fraud is "worse than assumed."
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Old 2012-09-06, 02:08 PM   [Ignore Me] #33
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Re: The Beginning of the End of the Republican Party?


Originally Posted by Vecha View Post
Therein lies the problem.

We are "betting" on the backs of a large percentage of people who will not be able to vote on the possibility that election fraud is "worse than assumed."
There's no reason why IDs should stop people from being able to vote.

Unless of course you deliberately make getting an ID impossible for groups of voters you don't want to vote because you're one of two parties who likes to stay in power.

But passes aren't expensive. If they're made to be expensive and for that reason unattainable then you're looking at a corrupt local state government that should be voted out of office asap. Voting is a right, after all, not a bought right.
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Old 2012-09-06, 02:12 PM   [Ignore Me] #34
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Re: The Beginning of the End of the Republican Party?


Originally Posted by Vecha View Post
Therein lies the problem.

We are "betting" on the backs of a large percentage of people who will not be able to vote on the possibility that election fraud is "worse than assumed."
When you see and hear reports about businesses working to get fake ID/driver licenses for illegals, it's not hard to think that it might be a larger problem than known.

There isnt a large percentage, it is extremely small, most places allow them to vote anyways, and they just have to provide other proof, like utility bill and birth cert for it to count. It's held to the side.

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
Voting is a right, after all, not a bought right.
There is no RIGHT to vote in the US.
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Old 2012-09-06, 04:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #35
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Re: The Beginning of the End of the Republican Party?


Originally Posted by Baneblade View Post
I'm betting election fraud is worse than assumed as well. Just because it isn't reported... doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Based on what evidence do you bet that voter or election fraud is worse than reported?
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Old 2012-09-06, 04:31 PM   [Ignore Me] #36
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Re: The Beginning of the End of the Republican Party?


Originally Posted by ziegler View Post
When you see and hear reports about businesses working to get fake ID/driver licenses for illegals, it's not hard to think that it might be a larger problem than known.

There isnt a large percentage, it is extremely small, most places allow them to vote anyways, and they just have to provide other proof, like utility bill and birth cert for it to count. It's held to the side.


Could you please give some evidence proving your "extremely small" statement?(Also would be helpful if you explained what you mean by extremely small. 5% would be a large percentage in my eye. That's a lot of people).



What do fake illegal ids have to do with the voter id law(s)? That there is illegal shit that goes on in this country?



When you show me evidence that proves it is worth disenfranchising even a "small percentage" of people in order to combat voter fraud...then I'll concede.

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
There's no reason why IDs should stop people from being able to vote.

Unless of course you deliberately make getting an ID impossible for groups of voters you don't want to vote because you're one of two parties who likes to stay in power.

But passes aren't expensive. If they're made to be expensive and for that reason unattainable then you're looking at a corrupt local state government that should be voted out of office asap. Voting is a right, after all, not a bought right.
My main problem is that these changes are going on during an election year.

Not everyone follows politics. They aren't sending out letters informing the public on what is required.

Many, many people are without the right form of identification.

Some have IDs that are expired, lost, incorrect address etc. etc.

Some college kids just don't have one.

Some who are older haven't had to worry about it for years.
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Old 2012-09-06, 05:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #37
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Re: The Beginning of the End of the Republican Party?


Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy View Post
Based on what evidence do you bet that voter or election fraud is worse than reported?
Because every other crime is worse then reported and there is no reason to believe election fraud is magically exempt.
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Old 2012-09-06, 05:25 PM   [Ignore Me] #38
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Re: The Beginning of the End of the Republican Party?


Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy View Post
Based on what evidence do you bet that voter or election fraud is worse than reported?
It's a victimless crime. Usually, those happen alot more than is tried and convicted.....take for example...pot smoking...you think only those caught and convicted make up the populace of people that smoke pot? how about prostitution? drunk driving? under age drinking? jay walking? Child molestation?........



http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...voter-id-laws/

is the closest I could find to verifiable cases of voters being denied. 9, out of 21 million....you'd think there'd be a website full of thousands listed....wouldnt there?
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Old 2012-09-06, 06:35 PM   [Ignore Me] #39
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Re: The Beginning of the End of the Republican Party?


Originally Posted by ziegler View Post


http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...voter-id-laws/

is the closest I could find to verifiable cases of voters being denied. 9, out of 21 million....you'd think there'd be a website full of thousands listed....wouldnt there?
I could do the exact same thing you just did with voter fraud.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...s-voter-fraud/

"You'd think there'd be a website full of thousands of voter fraud" to justify stopping those 9 people from voting.

But there isn't.


Also, I posted a site earlier that show statistics of the amount of people in Wisconsin that do not have the right form of ID.


More people vote in the presidential election than they do in primaries.

We will see how many are stopped from voting this November.
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Old 2012-09-06, 07:38 PM   [Ignore Me] #40
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Re: The Beginning of the End of the Republican Party?


There is nothing inherently wrong with requiring picture IDs for voting. All of your arguments stem from the lack of a comprehensive national ID.
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Old 2012-09-06, 08:08 PM   [Ignore Me] #41
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Re: The Beginning of the End of the Republican Party?


If the issue is short term pre-elections changing rules to suddenly require something, fine, that is sad. Your states should not have different rules for federal elections though. They represent the citizens of the nation, not the states.

Btw. It is pretty stupid IMO to have presidential elections, it always leads to just two choices. The way we select our prime minister is by first having proportional elections for parliament. Parliament then creates a government coalition. Then the minister posts are distributed among the parties, usualy proportionaly though there are exceptions depending on how negotiations went. Typically the leader of the coalition's biggest party becomes prime minister. Sometimes they stay fraction leader in parliament and someone else from their party becomes prime minister. Rarely someone from another party is chosen, although it might happen in exchange for more ministrial posts, though that is unlikely. This way you get a prime minister that doesn't face a hostile parliament.

Of course our monarch is above the parties and is not allowed to suggest their prefered party, but till recently they did suggest which coalition formations should be considered first (it is tradition that the biggest party gets to start negotiations, should they fail, the second biggest can try. To ensure something happens even in a splintered landscape, the monarch used to make some suggestions based on the feedback received from each individual coalition member. Not being tied to a party, the monarch can have more strategic information from each party to make suggestions on how to proceed and to apply some pressure or force some openings if it takes too long). Of course monarchs aren't always a good thing, but we're pretty content with the ones we have had so far. They are constitutionalised of course, so the power lies with the populace first and foremost. It is however nice to not have money wasting election campaigns for both presidents and parties and that there are more than two options for prime ministers.

If you elect presidents directly, you always get a first past the post system that leads to just two candidates. Unless you let people give a wider choice by giving them two votes and more choices to pick from then two. That is the system the libdems in the UK want.
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Old 2012-09-06, 09:37 PM   [Ignore Me] #42
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Re: The Beginning of the End of the Republican Party?


Originally Posted by Baneblade View Post
There is nothing inherently wrong with requiring picture IDs for voting. All of your arguments stem from the lack of a comprehensive national ID.

Agreed.

I'm not saying there is something evil behind the ID practice...it is how it is being executed that I begin to take issue.
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Old 2012-09-07, 10:12 AM   [Ignore Me] #43
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Re: The Beginning of the End of the Republican Party?


Originally Posted by Vecha View Post
I could do the exact same thing you just did with voter fraud.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...s-voter-fraud/

"You'd think there'd be a website full of thousands of voter fraud" to justify stopping those 9 people from voting.

But there isn't.


Also, I posted a site earlier that show statistics of the amount of people in Wisconsin that do not have the right form of ID.

More people vote in the presidential election than they do in primaries.

We will see how many are stopped from voting this November.
Except I have explained why victimless crimes go unreported, and even some victim crimes do as well.

I do believe that Tn had a very high primary turn out this year. I know the early voting was higher than normal for sure.
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Old 2012-09-07, 11:44 AM   [Ignore Me] #44
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Re: The Beginning of the End of the Republican Party?


Originally Posted by ziegler View Post
Except I have explained why victimless crimes go unreported, and even some victim crimes do as well.
That is supposition...with no facts that have anything to do with voter fraud, except to be included in the broad category of "crime."

I posted statistics that did have to do with voter fraud(The % of those without the correct form of ID).
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Old 2012-09-07, 12:06 PM   [Ignore Me] #45
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Re: The Beginning of the End of the Republican Party?


Originally Posted by Baneblade View Post
Red=Blue
So you going to vote yellow in November?
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