MAX Timers - Page 7

ChewyLSB · 2004-02-16, 06:36 AM

The biggest problem with your certs argument is that it's not valid. The devs stated, time and time again, this game isn't based on who's been playing for longer, it's based on who's better at an FPS. If a BR20 with a Sweeper runs at a BR4 wtih a Sweeper, it's going to come down who's better at FPS's.

If someone heard about this situation who hadn't played PlanetSide, he would assume that the Anti-Infantry Platform would win in a 1v1 against an Infantry unit. Of course, that's not true half the time. The MAX is probably going to lose half it's health, since everyone and their mother carries around a decimator. So, a MAX is an effective Infantry killer machine until it meets... a Deci?

Dyentious · 2004-02-16, 08:47 AM

actually after seeing some video's on Eka's video website, i'm changing my stance on this issue heh.

Although I still say it's not the max that is underpowered, it's the deci that is overpowered. Surge is also one of the main culprits in this problem, as it is in many problems. I wish they would take out surge, but that is a whole other issue.

Maybe they should make it so you have to be crouched for a full second before shooting.. after all it's a shoulder mounted rocket launcher, people don't just walk around shootin those things like an mp5

Fenrys · 2004-02-16, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Dyentious

Maybe they should make it so you have to be crouched for a full second before shooting.. after all it's a shoulder mounted rocket launcher, people don't just walk around shootin those things like an mp5

Now THERE is a good idea. Make it aim like the Bolt Driver

Warborn · 2004-02-16, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Dyentious

Those last 2 posts just reinforce what I said before..

you might die a bunch whn you get in a MAX and go run out into the zerg without any strategy, but if you use it with a TEAM, in a PLAN, they are extremely powerful. The really don't need to be any more powerful jsut so you can kick ass without having to use your brain

So when you don't play with a team executing a plan you're playing without using your brain? That's high-larious.

Originally Posted by BadAsh

Nerfing the Deci to require 4 hits... MAX Crash teams will own even harder... the TR will have NO defense... so even the feeble spawn room deci defending won't work... Now MCT MAX players can expect to take a whole cont (12+) bases without dying once. Yeah, that's balance and fairness...

So the MAX should be kept at its current pathetic level because when 40 guys get in a MAX and charge a base it's hard to stop them right now? Games aren't balanced on off-the-wall scenarios like that. Those sorts of occurrences are rare enough to the point that they deserve their own limitations to them, which I think could be done by simply having the zerg recognize and know how to respond to that kind of a tactic. Either way, it's not a point in your favor, because as I already said, they aren't successful because MAXs are so good at killing, they're successful because 40 MAXs with their shields on bumrushing the spawn tubes is not an everyday happening, and people can't react to it well at all.

BadAsh · 2004-02-16, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by ChewyLSB

The biggest problem with your certs argument is that it's not valid. The devs stated, time and time again, this game isn't based on who's been playing for longer, it's based on who's better at an FPS. If a BR20 with a Sweeper runs at a BR4 wtih a Sweeper, it's going to come down who's better at FPS's.

In the context of this conversation that argument is completely valid. Veteran was making a point that infantry can Rambo and a MAX can not. In his example he mentioned having multiple weapons, med, eng, etc. You don�t start with those, you have to earn that versatility. To Rambo as Veteran mentioned requires a BR18. If you don�t have that cert selection you�d die. No Med? You�d run out of health. No eng? You�d soon have no armor. No Deci? Death by max (like 50% of the players experience day in and day out). Not to mention the cloaker kill which the mandatory Darklight implant is needed. You don�t get that at BR1.

So while your ability to aim may give you an edge against a higher BR rated character he will be more powerful in his versatility and implants. Can you still win? Sure, but you won�t yet be able to sustain yourself on the battlefield as well as he can.

BadAsh · 2004-02-16, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

So the MAX should be kept at its current pathetic level because when 40 guys get in a MAX and charge a base it's hard to stop them right now? Games aren't balanced on off-the-wall scenarios like that. Those sorts of occurrences are rare enough to the point that they deserve their own limitations to them, which I think could be done by simply having the zerg recognize and know how to respond to that kind of a tactic. Either way, it's not a point in your favor, because as I already said, they aren't successful because MAXs are so good at killing, they're successful because 40 MAXs with their shields on bumrushing the spawn tubes is not an everyday happening, and people can't react to it well at all.

Warborn... Ok, here is my opinion and how I see things in regards to MAX units...

When I first piloted a Reaver I got killed 8 times before I got my first Reaver kill. I was a complete spaz at the controls and I did not yet know that the missile lock warning meant... run in full AB now! Eventually, I got the hang of it and now I frustrate AA MAX units by knowing their range and flying right outside of it. I typically get several kills each time I get in my Reaver. Usually, my Reaver is lost because I've run out of ammo and decide to just "hot drop" on an enemy tower or base rather than fly back for a reload. I rarely get shot down.

When I first tried the sniper rifle I completely sucked at it. I'm a former RTCW sniper and those sniper rifles are instant hits from across the map and there was no COF. So I missed a lot until I got the hang of it. I figured out where to snipe from, how to find targets, how to lead my shots, etc. After getting smoked by cloakers a few times I learned to counter even that. I got damn good at sniping and counter-cloaker measures.

When I first got into a MAX I got spanked for a while until I figured out how to use the various MAX units (AI and AA). Decis and vehicles spanked me as I charged into battle. In time I learned to be more cautious and pick my fights more wisely. Now I kick ass in my MAX units rather than the other way around.

In the beginning of each of these I could have asked for assistance in the form of buffs or nerfs....

Perhaps the Reaver should be made easier to fly, faster to avoid enemies, and have more armor to resist the near instant AA MAX kills.... OR perhaps I could just learn to use what I have and develop the skill to take down my opponents...

Perhaps with the sniper rifle I could have suggested that the COF be removed to more easily hit moving targets, perhaps I could have asked for 1 shot kill capability because too many targets got hit once and ran off to heal, perhaps I could have asked for special cloaker detection to save me from cloakers... OR perhaps I could just learn to use what I have and develop the skill to take down my opponents be they soft targets in the distance or a cloaker creeping behind me...

Perhaps if I have trouble using a MAX I could ask for nerfs to anti-max weapons or perhaps ask for more armor, speed, more firepower, etc... OR perhaps I could just learn to use what I have and develop the skill to take down my opponents...

In all 3 areas sniping, Reaver piloting, and MAX piloting I got spanked until I developed the skill necessary to use my equipment to my advantage. Now I kick ass without requiring game changes to deliver me the uber-sniper rifle, the uber-reaver, or the uber-max.

This is my opinion of course and I can see you disagree, that's fine. But, my opinion won't change. If I can figure out how to snipe, fly a Reaver, and pilot a max effectively then so can anyone else. FIN

Gigabein · 2004-02-16, 07:42 PM

A deci can 2-shot any max with splash dmg. I've tested it, used it in the field and been the victim of it. I'm asking that it take 3 direct hits from a deci to kill a max. You can still kill a MAX with 1 tube... it will just give AI MAXes a more reasonable chance to survive his encounter with the surgile, audio-amped, peekaboo deci. And don't pretend they don't exist.

Hell, I'll compromise: 2 direct hits and 1 splash dmg. Remove the unimax cert too, if that will curb the flood of lemmings.

Visor · 2004-02-16, 08:30 PM

Maxes are only usefull indoors because of the AV or reaver/tank even indoors they get killed by the deci way too many times.

I dont know why people use the MAX except in small fights where there probably wont be a Deci/AV user.

Warborn · 2004-02-18, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by BadAsh

stuff about me being a bad MAX player and a whiner

I'm a sniper in PS virtually all of the time. I am not a long-term MAX player by any means and don't plan on doing anything with my MAX character beyond simply expanding my view of the game. I've no desire to play a MAX in the long run, and were MAXs to be buffed I, as a sniper, would suffer because of it. So if you think this is me asking for life to be easier, forget it. I'm asking for MAXs to get what I feel they need, despite the fact that I'll no longer by able to take them out with just a Decimator plus my bag of sniping tricks.

But, anyway, back to sniping. You said it yourself, sniping ain't easy. Do you see me making sniping posts asking for sniping to be easier? Have I ever asked for sniping to be easier, even when I just started and hadn't gotten the hang of it, or am I instead vehemently opposed to making sniping easier despite the obvious benefit I'd get from it? Don't assume I'm some whiney little crybaby, or a shitty player, because I'm neither, and I don't make posts which serve no purpose other than to vent my own frustration or make things easier for myself at the expense of the game's level of balance. If anything, this thread was inspired by the guilt I feel everytime I kick the hell out of an AI MAX with a Decimator and continue sniping while he endures his MAX timer.

To make it painfully obvious, I know MAXs die really quickly to infantry with Decimators, not because I die to them often when I play them, but because I'm the one killing them all the time when I'm not playing a MAX. The reason I picked up a MAX and toyed with it for a few weeks wasn't to guage how effective they are. I already know how effective they are, because I've played most facets of Planetside for an extended period since it was released, and have a pretty good grasp of how things work from virtually all angles, including extensive experience in various MAX-killer roles. The reason I picked up the MAX cert was because I know I'm a decent FPS player, and I wanted to feel whether it's as odious to be slaughtered by infantry as it feels like it would be after I massacre a MAX with my Decimator while in my sniper loadout. And I guess the arrogant part of me wanted to see if I could do it better than the MAXs I kill on a regular basis, and maybe break the trend somehow. I certainly don't consider myself a bad MAX player by any means, but I do better realize how laden with unnecessary restrictions compared to their actual ability MAXs are after having played one for a while. Going from a 100% self-sufficient and very successful sniper to an entirely friend-dependent and flimsy MAX unit gave me a better understanding of why so few AI/AV MAXs are in existance. AI MAXs suck (though VS AI MAXs aren't so bad because of their jets), and I think I have enough experience on both sides of the picture to say that with absolute certainty.

So, in conclusion, if your only remaining defense is to criticize my ability as a player and patronize me as a person, I do indeed agree that your role in the discussion at an end. This isn't a question of how good the numerous people who've echoed my thoughts in this thread are. Judging by your stats you're obviously no Planetside god, and I think you're overextending your area of expertise by telling us that MAXs aren't bad, we're just doing it wrong.

BadAsh · 2004-02-18, 12:21 PM

Warborn,

I�m sorry if you feel my last post was directed at you specifically. It�s just how I feel about this issue hence my stressing that it�s just my opinion based on my personal experience with the game. I never called your sniping ability into question, I was referring to my experiences in sniping, piloting, and MAX usage.

To make my point as painfully obvious, clear, etc as possible I�ll summarize it in one paragraph:

MAX units are dependant upon support by intentional design. They can�t heal, repair, or even hack. I can�t think of any bigger hint the developers could have put into the design that could make this design decision any more obvious. MAX units were never intended to solo. As part of an integrated team the MAX is devastating. Making the MAX more powerful so that it can solo would make it exponentially more powerful in a group. This would be much more powerful than intended and would force more MAX units into the field because that would be the only countermeasure. If you are using a piece of equipment for something other than it was intended you can�t expect optimal results. As I�ve stated before if you have a few MAX units in your squad you have a tremendous advantage over a squad that does not have any MAX units. This is how they were intended to be used and this is how they shine. Any other use is folly.

Onizuka-GTO · 2004-02-18, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Dyentious

Maybe they should make it so you have to be crouched for a full second before shooting.. after all it's a shoulder mounted rocket launcher, people don't just walk around shootin those things like an mp5

I agree with that, it sounds like a wonderful idea.

TheN00b · 2004-02-18, 01:07 PM

Listen, I'm not criticizing anyone, and I hope I don't get flamed for this, but what happens if the Deci is nerfed? I mean, despite what is happening right now, i.e. MAXes being easily Decied by infantry, MAXes really are quite powerful, atleast in terms of infantry combat. If the Deci is nerfed, AI MAXes would have the possibility of getting huge amounts of kills during indoor combat. The problem with having AV weapons as of now be fairly worthless indoors is that the Deci is really the only counter to AI MAXes. I'm really unsure about taking that away.
Now, as for the AV MAX, I think it should be buffed. I've been NC for quite a while, have played with the Falcon and against the Dual Cycler and Comet quite extensively, and I find them mildly useless. They can fire quite a few shots, sure, but the shots seem to barely affect main battle tanks and, to a lesser exten, buggies as well. I think that all AV MAXes' weapons should recieve a substantial buff for AV damage, while keeping their AI damage the same.

Warborn · 2004-02-18, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by BadAsh

Warborn,

I�m sorry if you feel my last post was directed at you specifically. It�s just how I feel about this issue hence my stressing that it�s just my opinion based on my personal experience with the game. I never called your sniping ability into question, I was referring to my experiences in sniping, piloting, and MAX usage.

You implied that I was still wet around the ears and needed to give it more time before I could understand the game enough to know that I'm wrong. I realize you didn't comment directly on my ability at any one thing specific.

MAX units are dependant upon support by intentional design. They can�t heal, repair, or even hack. I can�t think of any bigger hint the developers could have put into the design that could make this design decision any more obvious. MAX units were never intended to solo. As part of an integrated team the MAX is devastating. Making the MAX more powerful so that it can solo would make it exponentially more powerful in a group. This would be much more powerful than intended and would force more MAX units into the field because that would be the only countermeasure. If you are using a piece of equipment for something other than it was intended you can�t expect optimal results. As I�ve stated before if you have a few MAX units in your squad you have a tremendous advantage over a squad that does not have any MAX units. This is how they were intended to be used and this is how they shine. Any other use is folly.

MAXs are not devastating as part of a team. MAXs are not devastating, period. If we're going to get into repeating the same old rhetoric then let's just call our discourse closed and move on to other peoples' opinions on this.

Originally Posted by TheN00B

Listen, I'm not criticizing anyone, and I hope I don't get flamed for this, but what happens if the Deci is nerfed? I mean, despite what is happening right now, i.e. MAXes being easily Decied by infantry, MAXes really are quite powerful, atleast in terms of infantry combat. If the Deci is nerfed, AI MAXes would have the possibility of getting huge amounts of kills during indoor combat. The problem with having AV weapons as of now be fairly worthless indoors is that the Deci is really the only counter to AI MAXes. I'm really unsure about taking that away.

How are AV weapons worthless indoors? You can't kill an AI MAX with them before they kill you, but isn't that how it's suppose to work?

Also, MAXs get hardly any kills now. I spend a lot of time watching kill spam, as I like to see the names of the people I'm shooting, and I hardly ever see back-to-back MAX kills. Instead, I see a half-dozen people dying to a Jackhammer, or the MCG, or the Lasher. HA infantry are the ones who own other infantry indoors, not AI MAXs, And that's a fact. And based on my experience, HA infantry, if armed with a Decimator, will smoke a MAX too should he get in the way.

So, if the Decimator were nerfed, the result would be a longer lifespam on MAXs. Enough to make up for their weaknesses? Maybe, especially if it's the crouch-to-fire thing, as I think that's a pretty good idea. But Decimators are not the only things that damage MAXs, and you wouldn't be losing the only counter you have to MAXs. Last time I checked, the Lancer fires indoors, and the Striker and Phoenix both have dumbfire modes. Are they as good as Decimators? No. But they certainly do damage to them, just as armor piercing (aka. those useless yellow things) bullets do.

BadAsh · 2004-02-18, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

MAXs are not devastating as part of a team. MAXs are not devastating, period. If we're going to get into repeating the same old rhetoric then let's just call our discourse closed and move on to other peoples' opinions on this.

I agree that this is our primary difference in this discussion. What you consider as me �repeating the same old rhetoric� I consider you as �ignoring the obvious�.

To me it�s obvious that a MAX was not designed to solo but to be part of a team. Being unable to heal, repair, or hack you require support and therefore can not effectively solo. To me that�s obvious, to you it�s just my �rhetoric�. But, whatever.

Just last night the NC pulled a classic maneuver with a single integrated Infantry/MAX squad. They dropped to a rear Tech plant and dropped the generator. The team consisting or 7 heavy infantry (with adv meds and engineering certs amongst them) and 3 NC AI Scatter MAX (2 dropped and 1 was hacked at a terminal) units proceeded to hold the generator area for a substantial period of time. As the defenders trickled back in from the front lines they were slaughtered wholesale by the MAX units.

Imagine you step into a room with your deci at the ready and you shoot one of the MAX units and then you get shredded. By the time you respawn that MAX is fully repaired and even if he was not repaired how would you know which one to hit again? If you run in with HA at the ready the MAX units destroy you very quickly. If you run in with a Deci you take lots of damage getting 1 shot off. If you survive the first shot and manage to find cover the infantry will butcher you. All the defenders need to do is watch what weapon the attacker comes in with and use their infantry or MAX units accordingly. It�s simple, effective, and brutal.

Anyway, defenders continued to trickle back to defend the base and get the generator back online. After about 10 minutes of slaughter it was finally all over and we managed to get the generator back online. Chatting with a few of the NC guys congratulating them on a job well done I learned that they had a guy keeping a kill count. Their 10 man team got 97 kills before being forced out. This is the power of a MAX/Infantry Team vs. an unorganized �zerg�. They said that on TS they were cursing me, because on 2 occasions I waited for others to attack and ran a flank behind their MAX wall and managed to kill 3 of their adv meds the first time and the second time I managed to kill all 4 (part luck, part patience/skill). This doomed the survivors to attrition. If I had not done this, how much longer would this have gone on? Eventually I suppose they would have run out of ammo and supplies from the sheer killing�

This tactic can be used to guard a downed generator, protect one you don�t want taken down, defend a tower (I can�t even begin to count the seemingly eternal deadlocked tower sieges I�ve been in made possible by a few well placed MAX units with supporting infantry), defend a CC, defend an entrance to the base, etc. Reverse this and your team makes a very effective assault team. Just see the MCT�s on Markov for perfect examples of this. 20+ MAX units with a few support infantry spank bases by bum rushing the spawn rooms. Nine times out of ten and the base is lost. Simply repeat this tactic 12-17 times to take every single base on an entire continent. After it�s all said and done realize that each MAX was only a casualty 2-3 times on average. Having the power to be a front line shock trooper and conquer 12-17 bases and only die 3 times is absurdly powerful. Note the key terms in use here: TEAM and SUPPORT. MAX units require both by intentional design. Fail to take either into consideration and you will experience nothing but frustration.

TheN00b · 2004-02-18, 04:42 PM

How are AV weapons worthless indoors? You can't kill an AI MAX with them before they kill you, but isn't that how it's suppose to work?

So, if the Decimator were nerfed, the result would be a longer lifespam on MAXs. Enough to make up for their weaknesses? Maybe, especially if it's the crouch-to-fire thing, as I think that's a pretty good idea. But Decimators are not the only things that damage MAXs, and you wouldn't be losing the only counter you have to MAXs. Last time I checked, the Lancer fires indoors, and the Striker and Phoenix both have dumbfire modes. Are they as good as Decimators? No. But they certainly do damage to them, just as armor piercing (aka. those useless yellow things) bullets do.

Oftentimes you probably won't be able to destroy very much at all of the attacking MAXes armor. Sure, the Pheonix dumbfire mode is moderately affective against MAXes indoors, but one shot is generally all you get before a quick death, because of the reload. The Striker and Lancer would probably have a much greater problem. As the Striker only currently deals a rather pitiful 75 damage, you could probably get off 1-2 dumbfires before you died, which still lets it wreck havoc on the rest of your friendlies. As for the Lancer, the lock-on time is too demanding, and the combination of having to dodge a MAXes shots and keep a Lancer locked on with any lag at all is quite difficult.

Also, MAXs get hardly any kills now. I spend a lot of time watching kill spam, as I like to see the names of the people I'm shooting, and I hardly ever see back-to-back MAX kills. Instead, I see a half-dozen people dying to a Jackhammer, or the MCG, or the Lasher. HA infantry are the ones who own other infantry indoors, not AI MAXs, And that's a fact. And based on my experience, HA infantry, if armed with a Decimator, will smoke a MAX too should he get in the way.

That may be true in a zerg, as the sheer number of infantry with Decimators and infantry probably easily overwhelm a MAX. However, rather than following the swarm, I often prefer getting in smaller Outfit squads, where we are the ones who start the skirmishes that eventually lead to Pop-Locked continents and zerg-on-zerg battles. Too us, with our small numbers and focus on support skills, the Decimator is quite critical, because a couple of MAXes can band together and sometimes succeed at taking, for example, the only tower on the Continent. Even with the Decimator, we can be overwhelmed: without it, there might be serious problems indoors.