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Old 2012-01-06, 05:17 PM   [Ignore Me] #61
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Re: Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS.....


Originally Posted by Coreldan View Post
ADS doesnt have to have anything to do with low TTK, though. BF3 on normal is also too arcade for my taste, hardcore is doable That said, I don't want 1 shot kills or so to Planetside and not saying that, but having ironsights does not mean that the damage model has to be "realistic".

That said, I could never even imagine myself playing Quake, games that arcade hold no value to me. You can't really say either which game takes more skill or if low or high TTK takes more skill, they are pretty much different skill sets.
Well generally yes I can say that the quake series definitely is a lot more skillful then any bf cod game or any of the like. While surely they take more smarts as far as the cross-hair plays in the game, having a steady aim and always on target is definitely a lot harder then 3 shots spraying an MG and getting a kill.
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Old 2012-01-06, 05:19 PM   [Ignore Me] #62
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Re: Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS.....


whatever. ironsights ruule
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Old 2012-01-06, 05:21 PM   [Ignore Me] #63
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Re: Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS.....


Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
Well generally yes I can say that the quake series definitely is a lot more skillful then any bf cod game or any of the like. While surely they take more smarts as far as the cross-hair plays in the game, having a steady aim and always on target is definitely a lot harder then 3 shots spraying an MG and getting a kill.
That's sorta the thing. In quake kinda games the biggest skill is in aiming and that's about it. The skill focuses elsewhere in games like BF/CoD (neither being anywhere near my favourite shooters anyways, though).

When anyone can just as easily "lol 3 shot spray" you to death, the skilled people are those who get the kills without dying themselves. In low TTK games it's more about reactions, twitch aiming, cover, location and even teamwork.

I'm not saying that the "non quake games" require less skill, but to imply that tracking a target is the only thing that requires skill in gaming is wrong too.
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Old 2012-01-06, 05:21 PM   [Ignore Me] #64
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Re: Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS.....


Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
Still that CoD video doesnt really do any justice. Complete different gameplay. Planetside definitely had the arcadey feel to it.


Watch both movies and look at what takes more skill? I personally find the battlefield games boring cause they provide no challenge. Dying in one to 2 shots is extremely frustrating and to accomplish-able by any individual playing the game. To be good at quake or even planetside it didnt necessarily take a lot of time and effort but there was a nice learning curve that always had you challenged. The need for you to want to land every shot as opposed to dumping a clip down an alley way while going prone to spray your enemy down does not appeal to me in any fashion.
Yea i agree with those points, espeically in an MMO setting, iv killed upto 12 people with a clip of low damage lasher rounds(well got the KB) by just spraying...god knows what you could do in PS2 if everybody just fell over in a bullet.

I think having a high TTK in PS2 is going to be necessary because of ping issues and just that there are so many people in a battle.

I think games like brink, Global agenda and The agency have acceptable TTK times for an MMO, they also require more teamwork since people live longer and you can call targets and focus fire, which maybe the case for MAXES.
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Old 2012-01-06, 05:25 PM   [Ignore Me] #65
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Re: Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS.....


Brink also has a pretty decent example of how weapons can be different. There are weapons that can and should be fired outside ironsights and weapons that pretty much require aiming down sights.

It's basically the "MA weapons" of planetside if we look at equivalents that require ADSing in Brink, while both the "light" and "heavy" end of weaponry (SMGs/shotties and like the big ass heavy minigun in Brink) that can and pretty much need to be fired without ADS.

That said, Brink could have a really low TTK when aiming for the head.
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Old 2012-01-06, 05:26 PM   [Ignore Me] #66
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Re: Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS.....


Originally Posted by Coreldan View Post
I'm not saying that the "non quake games" require less skill, but to imply that tracking a target is the only thing that requires skill in gaming is wrong too.
+1 teamwork should always trump skill.
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Old 2012-01-06, 05:26 PM   [Ignore Me] #67
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Re: Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS.....


Originally Posted by xSquirtle View Post
but lets not make this a BF3 or COD game where everyone and their grandma is iron sighted 24/7.
Too be honest I agree with this sentiment. The developers are putting a ton of work into making the setting of Planetside 2 beautiful an immersive along with it's mechanics. Iron sights add to that but can detract from it also because there is never a reason NOT to use iron sights except to move from point a to point b. And in the the9 video the muzzle flash that the weapons seem to have almost blind you when in iron sights.

I think Planetside should use it but you should be penalized enough to where you aren't using it for spray and pray type combat that is the mainstay of the game. It should be used as an attempt to pick off someone over a distance however, much like the bullpup and the 552 from counterstrike, but without the zoom and scope.

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Old 2012-01-06, 05:27 PM   [Ignore Me] #68
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Re: Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS.....


Originally Posted by Coreldan View Post
Brink also has a pretty decent example of how weapons can be different. There are weapons that can and should be fired outside ironsights and weapons that pretty much require aiming down sights.

It's basically the "MA weapons" of planetside if we look at equivalents that require ADSing in Brink, while both the "light" and "heavy" end of weaponry (SMGs/shotties and like the big ass heavy minigun in Brink) that can and pretty much need to be fired without ADS.

That said, Brink could have a really low TTK when aiming for the head.
Well i believe they have said that HA weapons wont have sights, it maybe the case of you can have your rifles and ill take my HA
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Old 2012-01-06, 05:29 PM   [Ignore Me] #69
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Re: Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS.....


Originally Posted by SKYeXile View Post
Well i believe they have said that HA weapons wont have sights, it maybe the case of you can have your rifles and ill take my HA
Makes sense, MCG is a hipfired minigungodmachine, JH is a shottie thus no need for sights either and anything VS might have has a built in aimbot anyways
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Old 2012-01-06, 05:33 PM   [Ignore Me] #70
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Re: Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS.....


Originally Posted by SKYeXile View Post
Yea i agree with those points, espeically in an MMO setting, iv killed upto 12 people with a clip of low damage lasher rounds(well got the KB) by just spraying...god knows what you could do in PS2 if everybody just fell over in a bullet.

I think having a high TTK in PS2 is going to be necessary because of ping issues and just that there are so many people in a battle.

I think games like brink, Global agenda and The agency have acceptable TTK times for an MMO, they also require more teamwork since people live longer and you can call targets and focus fire, which maybe the case for MAXES.
I hear it. It definitely doesnt have to be the TTK of quake that is waaaaaaaay to huge of a ttk for a mmo. I thought planetside 1 had it down pat just needed better coding of course.
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Old 2012-01-06, 05:44 PM   [Ignore Me] #71
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Re: Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS.....


I do not want to see the likes of iron sights in Planetside 2 personally. It slows down the game too much. Twitch based running and gunning is the best and most fun way to play.
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Old 2012-01-06, 05:44 PM   [Ignore Me] #72
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Re: Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS.....


Originally Posted by Sirisian View Post
You made excellent points. However, COD2 - one of my favorite LAN party games - is a bad example of how to use iron sights. There needs to be an actual delay (which can be different for each weapon) that makes the choice of when to use iron sights a matter of skill. In COD2 it was all about quick scoping with all weapons which took away the choice.

In the Planetside 2 video you can see the player firing "from the hip" at 8 seconds then instantly switching to iron sights with no penalty. Doesn't even stop firing. At 14 seconds he's taking long shots without switching to iron sights which should be a valid choice with penalties and advantages. I definitely think moving slower should be one of them if you get an accuracy boost and your CoF goes down faster.

I chose that CoD2 footage just to refute peoples' claims that ADS will automatically make combat slower or somehow less skillful than it was in PS1. I'm not saying "make ADS just like it was in PS2" because as much as I loved CoD2, ADS in that game definitely had its problems (like quick/jump scoping).

I agree that the ADS shown in that PS2 footage needs some work, too. Like you said, instant ADS is IMO almost as bad as no ADS at all. You'll also notice that the firer has almost no recoil at all while using ironsights - another bad game mechanic. And a slower movement speed does make sense, but it shouldn't be reduced to a slow crawl.


Originally Posted by xSquirtle View Post
Every FPS since 2003 has focused on iron sight's. People focus far to much aiming down an iron sight rather then focusing on the battle surrounding them self's. I think the zoom aspect is important for snipers and long rang attacks, but lets not make this a BF3 or COD game where everyone and their grandma is iron sighted 24/7.

By the way; iron sight makes video's really, really lame. As 99% of the video that someone shot is someone looking down an iron sight.

I don't want ppl to have to use ironsights 24/7 either. I don't want either tactic to be forced down our throats. Both playstyles need to be viable choices IMO.


Originally Posted by Coreldan View Post
That's sorta the thing. In quake kinda games the biggest skill is in aiming and that's about it. The skill focuses elsewhere in games like BF/CoD (neither being anywhere near my favourite shooters anyways, though).

When anyone can just as easily "lol 3 shot spray" you to death, the skilled people are those who get the kills without dying themselves. In low TTK games it's more about reactions, twitch aiming, cover, location and even teamwork.

I'm not saying that the "non quake games" require less skill, but to imply that tracking a target is the only thing that requires skill in gaming is wrong too.

Agreed. Quake and the like focus more on dodging ability whilst keeping your CoF on target for extended periods. CoD/BF, etc rely more on quick reflexes, putting your crosshairs on target immediately and rapidly and precisely moving your reticle from target to target, outflanking your opponents and setting up ambushes, etc.

Both game types require a lot of "skill" in order to truly excel. They're just slightly different skillsets.
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Old 2012-01-06, 07:10 PM   [Ignore Me] #73
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Re: Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS.....


I don't care much for iron sights, would prefer not to have them frankly. I have yet to find iron sights more fun or interesting since I first encountered them in online play in America's Army (I think) way back. I felt PS1 did well enough with the shooting system, it was fun and did not hamper gameplay in any way that I could detect.

I don't want too much realism in the shooting aspect of games because, let's be honest, shooting in real life is not *that* fun.

I think this argument is moot tho, the devs clearly intend to have iron sights and I don't expect them to change at this point.
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Old 2012-01-06, 07:22 PM   [Ignore Me] #74
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Re: Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS.....


I say yes for iron sights for immersion/realistic reasons. In reality, you can't expect to make an accurate shot from far range by shooting from the hip. With real guns, that's what you do - you look through the iron sights. To improve the FPS feel/experience, modern FPSs took this direction. I've been playing BF3 recently and I have no regrets.
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Old 2012-01-06, 08:49 PM   [Ignore Me] #75
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Re: Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS.....


Honestly it will really depend on how the developers go about implementing them. There are a lot of sentiments here that I agree with on both sides, yes it slows down combat, it does add to immersion, if done improperly it will end up with everybody in iron sights constantly. However until we really see how the developers actually end up going about them in the game we really shouldn't be judging them quite so harshly. There certainly are a lot of situations that can screw it up, and I'm sure its challenging to find a balance between iron sights and hip fire, but until the game comes out and we see how they implemented the iron sights there really isn't much to say on whether they belong in planetside 2 or not.

Its all about implementation, if they implement the iron sights correctly to maintain a good balance between using the sights or firing from the hip then I say hell yes let them stay as I do like having ironsights myself. But if the opposite is true in that you need to constantly be using them in order to get a kill I would say remove them as that is not planetside.
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