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Old 2013-09-18, 04:30 AM   [Ignore Me] #16
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Re: "E-Sports - Good or bad for Planetside 2?" - ReachCast Episode 52 CQ


For me it will entirely depend on what kind of effect it will have on the normal day-to-day Planetside gameplay. Naturally the devs will claim that it won't have any adverse effect, but what we saw in vanilla SC2 was that there was a much larger focus on esports than casual play (No custom games like in WC3). That ended up actually hurting the game quite a lot.

The good
If esports kicks off then the game will be getting a lot more attention. More attention, more money. Money we would then see invested into PS2.
If the cash rewards become large enough will be see many other competitive outfits form so it's not always just the same outfits battling it out in the end.
It could lead to better level design, balancing and performance changes based on a competitive environment.

The bad

It could divide the community.
It could take dev time away from the actual game.
It could lead to unfortunate balancing based on a competitive environment.
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Old 2013-09-18, 07:18 PM   [Ignore Me] #17
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Re: "E-Sports - Good or bad for Planetside 2?" - ReachCast Episode 52 CQ


E-sports detracts from the game I'd like to see PS2 become. Therefore to me E-sports are bad.
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Old 2013-09-18, 07:27 PM   [Ignore Me] #18
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Re: "E-Sports - Good or bad for Planetside 2?" - ReachCast Episode 52 CQ


Originally Posted by Helwyr View Post
E-sports detracts from the game I'd like to see PS2 become. Therefore to me E-sports are bad.
May I be the bad guy here and say that the current PS2 is more fit for ESport than it is fit for casual gaming?
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Old 2013-09-18, 08:22 PM   [Ignore Me] #19
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Re: "E-Sports - Good or bad for Planetside 2?" - ReachCast Episode 52 CQ


Originally Posted by Helwyr View Post
E-sports detracts from the game I'd like to see PS2 become. Therefore to me E-sports are bad.
Can you explain what you mean by 'detracts'? Is it just an issue of dev resources?

Battle Islands were in PS1 and they're being used smartly for continental lattice here, so I don't get those sorta vague complaints about not liking MLG. Obviously unless SOE host and suck all outfits out the game at once I don't see how it can go too badly wrong (besides a total waste of money for the MLG/machinima deals lol)
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Old 2013-09-18, 10:38 PM   [Ignore Me] #20
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Re: "E-Sports - Good or bad for Planetside 2?" - ReachCast Episode 52 CQ


imo we can't know if it is "good or bad" for PS2 untill we have MLG in, so i will wait until i judge.
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Old 2013-09-18, 11:34 PM   [Ignore Me] #21
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Re: "E-Sports - Good or bad for Planetside 2?" - ReachCast Episode 52 CQ


The concepts of Everquest Next and Planetside 2 pretty much polar opposites, so much so that it's kind of shocking that the two games are being made by the same company, at the same studio.

EQN: An open world "sandbox game", where players literally shape the world around them, while also determining the actions of those within the world (both real people and NPCs).

PS2: A 3 map team death match style shooter game with really big maps, lots of vehicles, no map resets, and no real point.

Not being negative when I say this, but really, I don't see how MLG will make PS2 any worse than it already is. In fact, it might actually give people a reason to play beyond blowing stuff and attending to their Skinner Box (getting certs, which after the first 2000 or so are really damned pointless or getting medals for the sake of doing so...).

You can't build anything in PS2. You can't own anything in PS2. There is no reason to ever become attached to anything in PS2.

So yeah, maybe giving SOME PEOPLE (whom ever they happen to be) some stats to be proud of might actually give PS2 a reason to exist. Maybe. And I say maybe, because there are already so many high quality session based shooters for people to choose from...
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Old 2013-09-19, 12:06 AM   [Ignore Me] #22
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Re: "E-Sports - Good or bad for Planetside 2?" - ReachCast Episode 52 CQ


Originally Posted by NewSith View Post
May I be the bad guy here and say that the current PS2 is more fit for ESport than it is fit for casual gaming?
Not sure if that's a statement or a question? In any case yes I could see it being argued that PS2 currently is better suited for E-sports than for casual gaming. That said it's not an issue of E-Sports vs Casual gaming for me personally, nor am I excited about what PS2 is now, I don't even actively play anymore.

Originally Posted by Root Hade View Post
Can you explain what you mean by 'detracts'? Is it just an issue of dev resources?
I think Dev resources is the reason many others consider E-Sports as negative for PS2, but no to me it's much more than that. No matter how much the Devs claim it won't impact the core game it will. It shapes both all future design decisions and shapes the culture of the game's community. These games can't be made for everyone even with lots of development resources. So when I see the Dev team constantly all hyped up about E-Sports I know they're wanting to make a game for different segment of gamers than myself. That's OK, its their game and it's not like E-Sports fans are any less deserving of having games made for them than anyone else, but I don't think that direction is true to what the Planetside franchise was about, and as I said it detracts from the game I hoped PS2 would be.
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Old 2013-09-19, 07:20 AM   [Ignore Me] #23
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Re: "E-Sports - Good or bad for Planetside 2?" - ReachCast Episode 52 CQ


So as already stated in the other thread I have been involved into "esports" as a player and team-organizer for over ten years and as an admin for leagues and tournaments for about eight years. And while I am still a fan of PS2 (despite my ramblings on WDS) and eSports I just don't see this working out.

For one it's impossible to organize a "professional" team of 48 players. There is a reason why all eSports teams have a max team size of five. That's not a number that comes out of the blue. If you have ever managed an eSports team you will come to notice that it's already a pain in the ass to organize your five guys plus the one or two backup players. I don't see how organizing 48 players and having them being online at the same time without having a huge amount of backup players (as you want to have players who know each other and work well together) will work. Except you make tournaments a once every two months thing. But I really don't know how you want to grow a competitive eSports scene from this schedule.

In addition to that, prize money is always a big thing in eSports. So let's just assume MLG gives out 10k USD as prize money. Which is a lot for a niche game like PS2 (yes, in eSports terms it's a niche game). Then that's about 200 USD for every player, not counting backup players who usually get paid a smaller amount too.
Then you have the problem that eSports relies to a big part on a live audience. And that's for two reasons. For one to get people to come and pay entrance fees, but also to check for "cheating allegations". If a team is able to perform great in front of a life audience people are less like to jump to cheating conclusions. How does one want to make 48 players go to a tournament? If you only send five it won't cut it. If you send all the prize money wouldn't even be enough to pay for the travel expenses. Unless they go up to the 100k prize money category. But then nobody except the two favorite teams would be able to attend because it would be a huge loss for them. Also the tournament would need to provide 96 PCs for people to play on. And that's only for a single game. That's just not feasible. So playing in front of a life audience is pretty much out of the question for PS2 and hurts it's eSports "capabilities" big time.

Also the game currently lacks any kind of spectator tool which allows you to monitor the game on an acceptable level. I don't want to diminish the work people do during the community clash but it shows how bad the spectator cam is as a "professional" spectator tool. Just look at the amount of tools, shortcuts and data games like Dota2 and StarCraft2 provide to the caster. afaik PS2 doesn't even have the ability to go into first person view in a first person shooter (although I heard server mods can do this?). That's like the worst precondition to cast a competitive first person shooter.

And even if SOE can magically fix all these problems there is still the big unknown: will people actually care? If have seen EA putting thousands of marketing dollars into their games for eSports, but once EA didn't want to put more money into them anymore the eSports leagues and ladders died. Almost instantly. People flock to where the money is and I currently do not see how this is going to happen in PS2. There are a few exceptions from this rule like LoL which was able to get a wide audience by filling a niche and was able to expand from that.
But I currently don't see people being all too interested in 48 vs 48 fights. Most games that are big in eSports are because they have a very clear structure and mostly short but fun engagements. It's the thrill of these small engagements that make a good and fun to watch esports title like the dota-like games. Or even Counter-Strike. And I don't see how these situations could be staged in a 48 vs 48 environment and be casted in an entertaining way that attracts viewers who don't know much about the game.

Maybe it will attract some new players but those will soon find out that playing an uncerted toon on Connery will be VERY different to what they have seen during MLG. And that's just another issue I have with the eSports idea: there is too large of a discrepancy between what the MLG mode looks like and what the game for a everyday player looks like. Except they only want people to play on the Nexus. Which I hope they don't. Of course there is a difference between playing a Dota2 match or a Counter-Strike 5vs5 in a public or an eSports environment. But the overall gameplay situation is almost exactly the same. The overall gameplay situation on PS2s continents is not like the Nexus. It's might be similar, but I feel that someone joining PS2 and looking for the Nexus might be very disappointed with what he finds the game to actually be.

But to refrain to the good: The only good thing I can see MLG could bring is new players. And the game desperately needs more as servers like Miller have lost about 50% of their population since June and can barely fill a single continent.
The bad thing is: I don't see how this is going to work out. The whole eSports idea feels shoehorned in and (imho) lacks any kind of direction or idea what they want to do with it except "We have the Nexus, let's do eSports on it". But I am sorry, that's not how eSports works. Maybe in the end it's a big success and I am proven wrong. I would actually be very happy if so. But unless SOE steps up their game and throws hundreds of thousands of dollars towards the MLG and other leagues and tournaments, I see very little chances of this happening.

Last edited by Emperor Newt; 2013-09-19 at 07:22 AM.
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Old 2013-09-19, 11:14 AM   [Ignore Me] #24
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Re: "E-Sports - Good or bad for Planetside 2?" - ReachCast Episode 52 CQ


Originally Posted by ChipMHazard View Post

BAD
It could lead to unfortunate balancing based on a competitive environment.
I disagree I think this is good. It may get the devs out of their spreadsheets and balance things that are clearly broken like Maxes.
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Old 2013-09-19, 11:35 AM   [Ignore Me] #25
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Re: "E-Sports - Good or bad for Planetside 2?" - ReachCast Episode 52 CQ


Originally Posted by Emperor Newt View Post
So as already stated in the other thread I have been involved into "esports" as a player and team-organizer for over ten years and as an admin for leagues and tournaments for about eight years. And while I am still a fan of PS2 (despite my ramblings on WDS) and eSports I just don't see this working out.

For one it's impossible to organize a "professional" team of 48 players. There is a reason why all eSports teams have a max team size of five. That's not a number that comes out of the blue. If you have ever managed an eSports team you will come to notice that it's already a pain in the ass to organize your five guys plus the one or two backup players. I don't see how organizing 48 players and having them being online at the same time without having a huge amount of backup players (as you want to have players who know each other and work well together) will work. Except you make tournaments a once every two months thing. But I really don't know how you want to grow a competitive eSports scene from this schedule.

In addition to that, prize money is always a big thing in eSports. So let's just assume MLG gives out 10k USD as prize money. Which is a lot for a niche game like PS2 (yes, in eSports terms it's a niche game). Then that's about 200 USD for every player, not counting backup players who usually get paid a smaller amount too.
Then you have the problem that eSports relies to a big part on a live audience. And that's for two reasons. For one to get people to come and pay entrance fees, but also to check for "cheating allegations". If a team is able to perform great in front of a life audience people are less like to jump to cheating conclusions. How does one want to make 48 players go to a tournament? If you only send five it won't cut it. If you send all the prize money wouldn't even be enough to pay for the travel expenses. Unless they go up to the 100k prize money category. But then nobody except the two favorite teams would be able to attend because it would be a huge loss for them. Also the tournament would need to provide 96 PCs for people to play on. And that's only for a single game. That's just not feasible. So playing in front of a life audience is pretty much out of the question for PS2 and hurts it's eSports "capabilities" big time.

Also the game currently lacks any kind of spectator tool which allows you to monitor the game on an acceptable level. I don't want to diminish the work people do during the community clash but it shows how bad the spectator cam is as a "professional" spectator tool. Just look at the amount of tools, shortcuts and data games like Dota2 and StarCraft2 provide to the caster. afaik PS2 doesn't even have the ability to go into first person view in a first person shooter (although I heard server mods can do this?). That's like the worst precondition to cast a competitive first person shooter.

And even if SOE can magically fix all these problems there is still the big unknown: will people actually care? If have seen EA putting thousands of marketing dollars into their games for eSports, but once EA didn't want to put more money into them anymore the eSports leagues and ladders died. Almost instantly. People flock to where the money is and I currently do not see how this is going to happen in PS2. There are a few exceptions from this rule like LoL which was able to get a wide audience by filling a niche and was able to expand from that.
But I currently don't see people being all too interested in 48 vs 48 fights. Most games that are big in eSports are because they have a very clear structure and mostly short but fun engagements. It's the thrill of these small engagements that make a good and fun to watch esports title like the dota-like games. Or even Counter-Strike. And I don't see how these situations could be staged in a 48 vs 48 environment and be casted in an entertaining way that attracts viewers who don't know much about the game.

Maybe it will attract some new players but those will soon find out that playing an uncerted toon on Connery will be VERY different to what they have seen during MLG. And that's just another issue I have with the eSports idea: there is too large of a discrepancy between what the MLG mode looks like and what the game for a everyday player looks like. Except they only want people to play on the Nexus. Which I hope they don't. Of course there is a difference between playing a Dota2 match or a Counter-Strike 5vs5 in a public or an eSports environment. But the overall gameplay situation is almost exactly the same. The overall gameplay situation on PS2s continents is not like the Nexus. It's might be similar, but I feel that someone joining PS2 and looking for the Nexus might be very disappointed with what he finds the game to actually be.

But to refrain to the good: The only good thing I can see MLG could bring is new players. And the game desperately needs more as servers like Miller have lost about 50% of their population since June and can barely fill a single continent.
The bad thing is: I don't see how this is going to work out. The whole eSports idea feels shoehorned in and (imho) lacks any kind of direction or idea what they want to do with it except "We have the Nexus, let's do eSports on it". But I am sorry, that's not how eSports works. Maybe in the end it's a big success and I am proven wrong. I would actually be very happy if so. But unless SOE steps up their game and throws hundreds of thousands of dollars towards the MLG and other leagues and tournaments, I see very little chances of this happening.
This is how I see it as well. I just dont see how it can work. Its not that I dont want it to work, or dont care about MLG (I actually would like to compete if it could work out). But as it has been set up, I don't see how it will last beyond one or two seasons.

If MLG were to start today, could you imagine starting up a team and getting 70-80 players on your team just to compete? Exactly. So what do you do, you join an already established team. What that will do is make it so that there will be only a handful of teams that really can compete consistently.
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Old 2013-09-19, 01:03 PM   [Ignore Me] #26
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Re: "E-Sports - Good or bad for Planetside 2?" - ReachCast Episode 52 CQ


Originally Posted by Emperor Newt View Post
Said some awesome stuff....
That's some really smart and important logic, especially with regards to the logistics and costs involved with tournaments. Hard to imagine a "lan party" style thing even being possible with teams of 48.

When Smed clarified last year that his vision of "e-sports" was more like reality tv than MLG, that concept sort of made sense for PS2 as a persistent world MMO. However, since then SOE has completely failed at making the world meaningful to the players, which completely removed any possible "drama" the players could entertain an audience with. Simply put: no one cares what happens on Auraxis, because none of it ever matters.

With that in mind, turning PS2 into a large scale session shooter, through this MLG thing, would at least make something useful out the game. Logistically, it's probably not possible to have physical tournaments, but Internet based ones are certainly viable. Would it be hard to organize more than 48 people per team? Sure, but Buzz and other outfit leaders proved that it's entirely possible within the context of PS2. Just because something is hard doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

It saddens me that SOE didn't make anything at all in PS2 to develop community identities and player associations. Even a concept as simple as giving Outfits the ability to declare an outpost or facility their home base and then only granting Outfit bonuses while that outpost/facility is held by their empire, would have given players a sense of "home" and meaning. Add to that concept the simple addition of granting each outpost/facility one unique benefit when it's your "home base" and all of a sudden Outfits would have a reason to consider where they'd like to situate themselves and care about the state of the world in general.

There were a lot of "little things" SOE could have done, lots of "community building game play systems" they could have added, that would have allowed PS2 to build strong emotional bonds, like Star Wars Galaxies did. SWG was WAY more buggy and annoying than PS2 (though it crashed much less frequently...), yet it was designed in such a way that even a decade later people are espousing how great it was to play with the friends they made. I stressed this long before "Planetside Next" was even in closed beta (ie. I posted it on the PS1 forum), but no one seemed to "get it". Now the population is dwindling and no one outside of the niche of hardcore Planetside fans even cares about PS2... Smed, why did you have to fail on this most important aspect of an MMO? (Community building, in case that wasn't clear).

Anyhow, MLG and the PS4 version may be the last real chance this game has to build some kind of dedicated community that has the potential for growth. It's finally something people might actually give a damn about. (I won't, but I am sure others will).
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Old 2013-09-19, 01:52 PM   [Ignore Me] #27
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Re: "E-Sports - Good or bad for Planetside 2?" - ReachCast Episode 52 CQ


Originally Posted by Tatwi View Post
That's some really smart and important logic, especially with regards to the logistics and costs involved with tournaments. Hard to imagine a "lan party" style thing even being possible with teams of 48.
we already know they are going for squad leaders only. So any possibility of 96 people at LAN was shot down long ago. Even at 5 people in person, theres a lot to ask of outfits to even compete.

Originally Posted by Tatwi View Post
When Smed clarified last year that his vision of "e-sports" was more like reality tv than MLG, that concept sort of made sense for PS2 as a persistent world MMO. However, since then SOE has completely failed at making the world meaningful to the players, which completely removed any possible "drama" the players could entertain an audience with. Simply put: no one cares what happens on Auraxis, because none of it ever matters.
exactly. the level of strategy is more based on the logistics of 48 players, not based on resources, base benefits, etc. Sure its large scale, but its just as shallow as many other games are strategically.

Originally Posted by Tatwi View Post
With that in mind, turning PS2 into a large scale session shooter, through this MLG thing, would at least make something useful out the game. Logistically, it's probably not possible to have physical tournaments, but Internet based ones are certainly viable. Would it be hard to organize more than 48 people per team? Sure, but Buzz and other outfit leaders proved that it's entirely possible within the context of PS2. Just because something is hard doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
The problem is, early on it was easier to get people into outfits. Starting one now to get to 60+ people is nearly impossible. There are too many barriers. What server, what faction, who wants to even be involved in esports, who can be on at the same time, who can be on at the same time as the other teams. My point is, good luck seeing any new outfits - we are stuck with the ones already made.

Originally Posted by Tatwi View Post
...
Anyhow, MLG and the PS4 version may be the last real chance this game has to build some kind of dedicated community that has the potential for growth. It's finally something people might actually give a damn about. (I won't, but I am sure others will).
I love competition. I want it to work. I would love to maybe some day even make my own outfit. But with all of these barriers, my only option is to join an outfit (did) and see how it goes. But lets be real, apart from everything covered in my previous posts, these posts, its very hard to see it working out.
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Old 2013-09-19, 04:37 PM   [Ignore Me] #28
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Re: "E-Sports - Good or bad for Planetside 2?" - ReachCast Episode 52 CQ


Originally Posted by Tatwi View Post
Would it be hard to organize more than 48 people per team? Sure, but Buzz and other outfit leaders proved that it's entirely possible within the context of PS2. Just because something is hard doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
Of course it's possible, but it will be a huge pain to do so and I doubt that many outfits out of those who currently are setting up MLG teams will be able to manage and maintain their teams over an extended period of time. Primarily because organizing an outfit is still a bit "easier" then organizing an eSports team of equal size because it doesn't require everybody to be there all the time. This will be a hell lot of work.

For eSports you need a fixed roster of players which you also need to be online for training in full strength. With 48 players there will most likely always be people missing and you will hardly get the full roster to be online during training. Which results in even more organization to bring backup players in an decide which ones and trying not to piss of others because you choose others more often etc.
While it might not be as bad as if one person in a five person squad is missing it's just way easier to get five people to be online at the same time on a regular basis. Also it's another problem because you want your tournament guys to train together for optimal efficiency. In an outfit it doesn't really matter if ten guys don't show up because of work or whatever. In a competitive environment it does and the more players you have the more likely players will miss training. Also there are other problems big team sizes bring.
In tournaments there usually are roster thresholds which mean that if you are unable to bring a certain amount of your roster you are still allowed to play with your remaining guys if the enemy agrees and if it goes below a certain percentage you lose by default. With the organization 48 players require this might be another problem. Sure, one doesn't have to use these rules but they are there for a reason. Simply to reduce the user of "ringers" (players from other teams) to mess up the system like deliberately exchanging your players with better ones from teams that already were eliminated from the tournament.
This and the "cheating allegations" without playing in front of live audience are some of the big parts of creating a "legitimate" eSports. If I have learned one thing then that without these things a lot of accusations will be made and it only fosters a hostile competitive environment with players accusing each other and that always backfires on the league organization. Especially when money is involved. Those rules simply are some kind of "safety net" you need. eSports is a very hostile and toxic environment. Which is one of the reasons why I "quit" about a year ago. I was just fed up with the kind of environment it tends to create.

In the end I think it would better to compare it to World of WarCraft 40 player raids. And Blizzard rightfully moved away from 40 man raids because only about 1% of players actually experienced those. In a game with millions of players those are still plenty of people but it shows the level of dedication and time this takes to pull of. For 99% this isn't possible and with 48 vs 48 SOE limits PS2 eSports to a handful of outfits, which puts the entry barrier for new players even higher. Neither can they just set up a team with friends, nor will they be likely to join one of the established teams as these already have more or less fixed rosters. And how likely is a "sports" to become big if only a handful of people can actually play it?

If SOE would have made this some kind of promotional tournaments which happen every once in a while for promotional purpose and added prizes like SC for the participating outfits I would have totally understood their thinking and motivations. But not for a "running" eSports. It just more or less defies everything I have come to learn about eSports over the years. Maybe the whole thing will be organized in a completely different way but their current statements look like they want it to be a "traditional" and "running" eSports as Highby stated that they don't want it to be just the MLG tournament every three months and aim at at least a weekly schedule (MLG Announcement Interview). Maybe it will turn out to be a different setup or maybe they are just out there to prove everybody wrong. I wish them the best of luck. But out of experience I remain highly skeptical, at least under the condition that is to become an eSports with an "ongoing and running" model as most games are and not just an isolated tournament thing. I would be happy to reevaluate my opinion when they actually announce more information on this but I can currently only run on the little we know so far.

PS: Sorry ReachCast for detracting this a bit. I just kind of feel I need to get that out of my system

Last edited by Emperor Newt; 2013-09-19 at 05:19 PM.
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