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View Poll Results: Would you like a single person mech in the game? (Please read the thread before posti
I don't like single person bipedal mechs and don't want them in the game 153 75.37%
I want single person mechs, but don't like this implementation. (Explain below) 11 5.42%
I support this implementation 28 13.79%
Other Reason (Explain below) 11 5.42%
Voters: 203. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-07-22, 01:46 AM   [Ignore Me] #76
Senyu
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Re: New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2


MAX suits are good enough for me for the "mech" feel.
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Old 2011-07-22, 02:01 AM   [Ignore Me] #77
Sirisian
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Re: New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2


I'm not going to say I agree with treerat's long winded posts. BFRs were seriously flawed. This thread is more focused on just creating a regular balanced mech that's fun to use and not a multi-user chore.
Originally Posted by Senyu View Post
MAX suits are good enough for me for the "mech" feel.
The mech feel is swaying back and forth as two mechanized legs move your forward. You really don't get that from a max. A max is just a different armor for a specific purpose to be a very defined weapon system and do it well. It allows players to sit at doors even moving in and out at will.
Originally Posted by Talek Krell View Post
One of us certainly is.
If you're not going to bother supporting a point then it's fine to admit you were wrong comparing a mech to an infantry unit, but don't be a poor sport.
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Old 2011-07-22, 09:55 AM   [Ignore Me] #78
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Re: New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2


Originally Posted by Malorn View Post
Please, you may not like me or my outfit, but don't make shit up. We were not incompetent noobs and we were quite quick to adapt to BFRs as much as was possible in that early insanity in late 2004. This little story you describe never happened. When we rolled vanguards we always focus-fired BFRs (and every other vehicle for that matter) for the simple ridiculous reality that a single vanguard's damage could be out-healed by the shield of a BFR. You had to focus fire to kill them and everyone in Liberty who drove and gunned a tank was painfully aware of that fact. We understand the basic and fundamental concept of focus-fire in games and have for about two decades, thanks.
First, I disliked you and your outfit no more or no less than I did my own. That incident only served to illustrate my point that the underlying problem with BFRs was less a problem of game mechanics and more one of the small & vocal minority who happened to constitute the majority of the forum population not adapting their tactics to the situation. As for that incident itself, you can believe what you want since I can't change what you wish to hear and I was laughing too hard to take screen shots at the time (assuming I had figured out which key took them). However I still have a good laugh remembering how those tanks (if you were leading them or not, or even if it was a Liberty + PUG) kept charging headlong into the worst possible match up for them without regard to using basic tactics. To me, that just confirmed that no matter how well-regarded by a server, how well placed on the scoreboard, and how vocal in it's superiority an individual or unit is, they are still more than capable of throwing anything resembling sense and discipline to the wind given the right incentive.

Oh and your Darwinism comment. What do you think your statements about BFRs are? Just because the small group of highly vocal "vets" (a term you use to describe yourselves that carries an immediate "we are better than you" context) found something imbalanced doesn't mean the majority of players did. I certainly didn't find them so, and had the (mis)fortune to run into a number of others across all the servers who even though they didn't pilot BFRs personally had no problem disabling or destroying them either. Personally, I think you are accusing me of using the same argument that underlay a lot of the "vets" arguments, yet not accepting that maybe your own arguments are equally flawed. Something commonly described as "pot calling the kettle black". At least in my view, I'm little a better because while I disliked a number of things (surgiles, the dominance of HA, endless zergs of aircraft), I didn't let it reach the point where I would damn anything that even carried a hint of those ideas simply out of the need to lash out at them.

Originally Posted by Malorn View Post
Ground-vehicle behavior they would have just been a role overlap. Instead they were given regenerative shields and jumpjets, two things which fundamentally changed vehicle combat and broke vehicle balance in the game. Really those are the two things that made them terrible. Had they just been 2-seater "heavy tanks" with more armor and no shields so any damage they took was permanent like any other vehicle then they probably would have been fine and we could have weathered the storm.
I think you just proved my point. You talk about regenerative shields, but ignored that vehicles operating with the Amp station benefit would also have as shield with some regenerative capability plus carry a great deal more armor for the cost. As for the jump-jets; those were confined to one version (the one with the lightest armor and firepower of the two "advanced" types), and were already a well-established part of the game (seeing as every VS MAX had already used them). If anything I would have thought an NC would have appreciated finally having that same ability to bypass walls with something besides aircraft. Really the only "new" aspects for BFRs was the ability to damage specific parts by targeting specific areas and shields that were selective in which types of weapons they stopped instead of all-or-nothing prospects. Even more interesting, you continue to miss the reason why shields were given (with the attendant graphical work required) instead of extra armor. BFRs had those shields so they would be able to combat their primary targets (vehicles) yet remain highly vulnerable to their primary counter (close-assault by infantry). Instead people like you complained until the shield was lowered (reducing the BFRs ability to fill it's primary vehicle hunter/ killer role) and the armor increased (reducing the effectiveness of the BFRs primary counter). In that way, you only have yourself and others like you to blame for the balance nightmare that BFRs became because it was partially your stream of complaints that resulted in the Achilles heel of the BFR getting extra armor.

You also ignored my point that role overlap already existed in Planetside. As an NC you saw it every day - Sweepers were functionally the same as Jackhammers and filled the exact same role while varying only in details (smaller clip, bit better CoF, and a little less damage) and yet you rarely (if ever) complained about that. Heck, if we extended your argument against BFRs or other "mechs", why have ANY new equipment at all since all the roles are already covered. Even your LMG arguments are hypocritical if you apply your own statement to them; PS2 already shows weapons with capability for suppressive fire in the form of masses rifles so why would be we need something like an LMG when the capability is already filled. Could it because those differences in detail provide strengths and weaknesses that differ from the other units filling that role?

Frankly Malnorn I'm actually surprised in a fashion. I had originally thought you would have grasped the limits and advantages of BFRs and similar units quickly and have incorporated them into your methods even if you personally disliked them. I see now though that you are no different from the members of SG and other "elite" units; once you found something that worked you slammed the door to new ideas and reinforced them with unthinking hate.
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Old 2011-07-22, 10:01 AM   [Ignore Me] #79
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Re: New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2


Originally Posted by Sirisian View Post
I'm not going to say I agree with treerat's long winded posts. BFRs were seriously flawed. This thread is more focused on just creating a regular balanced mech that's fun to use and not a multi-user chore.
Long winded? Sigh, now I see what is meant by people not wanting to listen to a debate or idea and instead only caring about the 10-second sound bite. Looks like I'm the one picking up the tab at the gangs next outing.

I could have summed it up as "Malnorn, stop being a hypocritical jackass and if you don't like BFRs say so then leave the thread." I however prefer to at least give some of my reasoning behind my positions.
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Click here to go to the next VIP post in this thread.   Old 2011-07-22, 10:44 AM   [Ignore Me] #80
Malorn
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Re: New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2


Amp station shielding isn't in the same ballpark as the BFR regenerative shielding. Like a firecracker to C4.
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Old 2011-07-22, 10:58 AM   [Ignore Me] #81
Redshift
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Re: New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2


Originally Posted by Treerat View Post
I think you just proved my point. You talk about regenerative shields, but ignored that vehicles operating with the Amp station benefit would also have as shield with some regenerative capability plus carry a great deal more armor for the cost.
Amp shields don't regenerate....
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Click here to go to the next VIP post in this thread.   Old 2011-07-22, 11:06 AM   [Ignore Me] #82
Malorn
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Re: New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2


Originally Posted by Treerat View Post
First, I disliked you and your outfit no more or no less than I did my own. That incident only served to illustrate my point that the underlying problem with BFRs was less a problem of game mechanics and more one of the small & vocal minority who happened to constitute the majority of the forum population not adapting their tactics to the situation.
Yes, a "vocal minority" is why 80% of the people (according to the poll in this thread) dislike the idea of mechs.

And that incident did not illustrate anything. For all you know the person you observed was drunk as his computer not really paying attention to the game. He may not have even been Liberty. You saw what you wanted to see and drew broad generalized conclusions without causal evidence nor a significant sample.

As for that incident itself, you can believe what you want since I can't change what you wish to hear and I was laughing too hard to take screen shots at the time (assuming I had figured out which key took them). However I still have a good laugh remembering how those tanks (if you were leading them or not, or even if it was a Liberty + PUG) kept charging headlong into the worst possible match up for them without regard to using basic tactics. To me, that just confirmed that no matter how well-regarded by a server, how well placed on the scoreboard, and how vocal in it's superiority an individual or unit is, they are still more than capable of throwing anything resembling sense and discipline to the wind given the right incentive.
Your implication that we are somehow incompetent and incapable of adapting to gameplay based on your one vague and admittedly imprecise recollection is just slanderous.

Oh and your Darwinism comment. What do you think your statements about BFRs are?
Truths.

You also ignored my point that role overlap already existed in Planetside. As an NC you saw it every day - Sweepers were functionally the same as Jackhammers and filled the exact same role while varying only in details (smaller clip, bit better CoF, and a little less damage) and yet you rarely (if ever) complained about that.
I commented on it from time to time and even mentioned it in my manifesto. I actually prefer the jackhammer to have different barrel types like the scatmax which would enable the user to make range vs dps tradeoffs that would differentiate it from the sweeper as well as make it competitive with the MCG & lasher at longer ranges.

Just because I don't comment on every role overlap doesn't mean I like to see it. The subject of the thread is mechs, not "role overlap in Planetside." I like to stay on topic.

Frankly Malnorn..
Misspelling my name once can be written off as a typo. Now you're just being a disrespectful dick. Your conclusions about me specifically are also incorrect.
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Old 2011-07-22, 11:39 AM   [Ignore Me] #83
NivexQ
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Re: New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2


From the screenshots of Planetside 2 that have come out so far, it seems most people have noticed that there will be a more fluid motion when walking over rocks and other obstacles. Well, this is the exact reason legs work better than tracks. Things with feet have more maneuverability. They can climb over the mountainous, rocky terrain shown in the wintery screenshot. They would be PERFECT for Planetside 2's new engine. THIS is a reason for BFRs to be in Planetside 2. Bear in mind, BFR just means "Battle Frame Robotics". I'm not talking about the current implementation of them, i mean new ones. Possibly four legged mechs that could/would be controlled by 3+ people.

I'll read this thread once more, and if the hate continues i'm just gonna ignore it from then on, because it's getting ridiculous. Stop with all the hate, it's a game.
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Old 2011-07-22, 11:42 AM   [Ignore Me] #84
Redshift
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Re: New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2


Originally Posted by NivexQ View Post
From the screenshots of Planetside 2 that have come out so far, it seems most people have noticed that there will be a more fluid motion when walking over rocks and other obstacles. Well, this is the exact reason legs work better than tracks. Things with feet have more maneuverability. They can climb over the mountainous, rocky terrain shown in the wintery screenshot. They would be PERFECT for Planetside 2's new engine. THIS is a reason for BFRs to be in Planetside 2. Bear in mind, BFR just means "Battle Frame Robotics". I'm not talking about the current implementation of them, i mean new ones. Possibly four legged mechs that could/would be controlled by 3+ people.

I'll read this thread once more, and if the hate continues i'm just gonna ignore it from then on, because it's getting ridiculous. Stop with all the hate, it's a game.
Why do we want something that can walk over rocks with no issue? the rocks are there to stop vehicles ..... you know so we can play infantry without being farmed 24/7, the whole game isn't about vehicles
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Old 2011-07-22, 11:43 AM   [Ignore Me] #85
2coolforu
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Re: New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2


Firstly trying to back up your point with 'Survival of the Fittest' is bullshit, so we have a forcing mechanism which you are selecting as BFR's and an existing population - the 'minority' of vets (even though pops were at their highest pre-BFR and crashed due to them). So let's analyze this, due to the BFR's populations dropped and directly afterwards the game was effectively dead until they were nerfed. Seeing as the measure of 'success' of a game could be the number of players the change was almost certainly a detrimental one as it alienated the majority of Planetside's playerbase.

However it also presupposes that you should just deal with any change and not prevent or remove said change, so with this logic we should just 'deal with' climate change, mass extinction events, oil spills etc etc. Because clearly these problems shouldn't be addressed or dealt with, we just need to adapt to living with them otherwise you are just a big whining baby right?

I also love your comparison with vehicle AMP shields, a vehicle shield charges at 5 armor per second pre-nerf crouched BFR shield regeneration was closer to 150-200 APS which can nullify the DPS of multiple infantry with ES AV weapons or the DPS of an MBT. Not only that but vehicle shields were only 20% of a vehicles base health and did not come as standard. A BFR shield had the hit points of a tank and then had its underlying armor which was also around that of an MBT with its recharge rate added on.

But the problem with BFR's did not just stop at their stupendous survivability, they also required only one crewman to be as effective as multiple fully manned MBT's which effectively filled the same role, they could be anti-everything with quick-switching between AA, AI and AV giving quick adaptability to any situation. They could kill aircraft more effectively than a Skyguard yet have the survivability of an MBT and the ability to fly up the the highest camping spots. They could kill tanks better than an MBT yet required only one crewman and could repair themselves. They could kill infantry as effectively as any other vehicle and were less affected by them than any other vehicle, if infantry is being attacked by a Vanguard then one man carrying a jammer will totally neutralize the threat however a BFR could still fire even while jammed and also had the ability to fly away from any fight if it was a flight variant.

Even now after being repeatedly nerfed more than any other vehicle in the game they are still the most prevalent land vehicle out there which goes to say something about how effective they are.
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Old 2011-07-22, 11:52 AM   [Ignore Me] #86
captainkapautz
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Re: New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2


I don't know if anyone brought it up yet, but if it's Mechs people want, then why not play Mechwarrior?

I personally think Bipedal Robots just don't fit in with Planetside, neither with the original nor with it's upcoming successor.
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Old 2011-07-22, 01:03 PM   [Ignore Me] #87
Sirisian
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Re: New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2


Originally Posted by captainkapautz View Post
I don't know if anyone brought it up yet, but if it's Mechs people want, then why not play Mechwarrior?

I personally think Bipedal Robots just don't fit in with Planetside, neither with the original nor with it's upcoming successor.
Yeah I brought it up already as an example of a mech in the original post. Thus my Battletech comment which is where the mechs in Mechwarrior come from mostly. I'm kind of confused about your comment though. You mean people should go play another game? This thread is more geared towards creating a mech that would fit into the Planetside 2 gameplay. A better argument would be "go play BF 2142 which had a both infantry and vehicles (and a mech) in it in 64 player battles". Mechwarrior's infantry in multiplayer was more of a joke. Not to mention the size difference was huge. Mechwarrior is a totally different game really. The idea is to pull in sweet ideas and vehicles though to make Planetside 2 awesome. I could easily pull someone into the game with just "oh yeah you can fly planes like in BF2, and you can pilot a mech if you want" and they'd be like impressed probably.

Regarding not liking mechs, I understand. Some people find them silly.
Originally Posted by Treerat View Post
Long winded? Sigh, now I see what is meant by people not wanting to listen to a debate or idea and instead only caring about the 10-second sound bite. Looks like I'm the one picking up the tab at the gangs next outing.
Sorry. I didn't mean to offend you. I read your posts, but you tend to write in a verbose way. Online people don't want to sit and read a huge amount of text. Keeping debate points quick and clear is much more effective.

Originally Posted by Redshift View Post
Why do we want something that can walk over rocks with no issue? the rocks are there to stop vehicles ..... you know so we can play infantry without being farmed 24/7, the whole game isn't about vehicles
They're trying to keep combat 50% indoor and 50% outdoor give or take. However, a great deal of outdoor play is vehicles. I think it would be cool to have some seriously awesome vehicles in the game. If a vehicle isn't awesome I don't think it should be in the game. (Which is very subjective, but I think most people think bipedal mechs are cool).

Originally Posted by NivexQ View Post
Bear in mind, BFR just means "Battle Frame Robotics". I'm not talking about the current implementation of them, i mean new ones. Possibly four legged mechs that could/would be controlled by 3+ people.
Odd. You're the second person I've seen that's mentioned a four legged mech with multiple people. Someone in the IRC channel wanted one. Honestly I'm not sure how to make it fun controlling a mech with that many people. You end up with someone not getting kills usually and in the end just end up leaving empty seats that aren't absolutely necessary (like the almost pointlessness of the liberators tail gunner).

Last edited by Sirisian; 2011-07-22 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 2011-07-22, 01:16 PM   [Ignore Me] #88
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Re: New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2


Originally Posted by Traak View Post
Mechwarrior was a popular game in the days of yore when PS was launched. I think they were trying to attract the disenchanted MW players with the BFRs. I think Microsoft had announced no more MW games, ever.

Problem is, MW was a simulator that was very well done, where you fought OTHER customizable 'mechs. BFRs were not. Not simulators. Not customizable to any great extent. Not fighting other BFRs (they prefer to pick on softies, and run away shrieking if anything near their weight comes along), and not well done.

BFRs drastically decreased the quality of the game.

Completely OT but is your a Mech fan.

http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/
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Old 2011-07-23, 01:08 AM   [Ignore Me] #89
opticalshadow
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Re: New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2


well first off, max suites are already single user mechs.

but i dont want another version. i dislike single person vehicles because they inhibit teamwork, and promote random people doign un co ordinated things.

that said, im not closed to the idea of even multi person mechs, what made BFR's so bad was that they ignored the arms econmy of the game, and gave orginally far to much power for one or two people compared to every other thing in the game, and then later on, became giant useless targets. their whole design in ps1 was poorly thought out and for them to work would require a major overhaul, scrapping the orginals entirely.

in the end though id rather see a more uniqie vehicle then a mech all together.
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Old 2011-07-23, 01:37 AM   [Ignore Me] #90
exLupo
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Re: New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2


Originally Posted by Malorn View Post
Yes, a "vocal minority" is why 80% of the people (according to the poll in this thread) dislike the idea of mechs.
Forumgoers for any game are always a minority segment of the playerbase as a whole, regardless of how vocal they may be.

Walking tanks, irrespective of name or implementation, are, as was said, a toxic asset. The BFR affair has ruined that mindspace for the vocal minority who will, as history has shown (bad PR items in any game), create multiple threads every day and stink up the forums. It doesn't matter how well the offending asset was done.

SOE cannot afford to voluntarily incite a threadnought when they have so many other exciting avenues they could dump dev cash into. Walking tanks of any kind in PS2 would probably make a ton of new players happy but would be a giant "Fuck You" to the majority of PS1 flag wavers. There's no reason to stir up trouble when you have a thousand other directions to head.

That, imo, comes before any discussion of how well it could be done, what place they would or would not have in PS2* or even what kind of market share you may attract if they're in game.

It's too late at this point for PlanetSide's IP to have a walking tank. There are plenty of other mech games out there, old and new, for people who want that kind of gameplay and art style.

@Sirisian - Multi-leg mechs are boss. I really liked the arty frames in Chromehounds.

*(as I've dumped elsewhere, I think that super-units, regardless of limitation, have no place in this scale of game)
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Last edited by exLupo; 2011-07-23 at 01:40 AM.
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