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Old 2003-11-28, 05:08 PM   [Ignore Me] #1
delta
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My simple Grief Modification Idea


Hello,

I use to believe that the Grief Point system was fine, and I still believe that, for the most part, it is. But after gunning in a vanguard for a few hours I now have 1018 Grief Points. This is only from gunning and not a single point of my grief was earned from deliberately attacking a friendly unit. You're probably thinking that I'm a "bad shot", I'm a good shot, and that's where we have the problem. I used to think that people complaining about the Grief System were stupid, and they team killed or weren't good at hitting the enemy. But now I realize that there IS a flaw to it, a major flaw which hurts all gunners of heavy assault tanks.

Two main problems:

The splash damage on the Vanguard is so large that you'll often have to damage a friendly when you hit an enemy tank. There are times when it's best not to shoot at a target if you're friendly unit is too close (the grief system enforces this) and there are times when you SHOULD fire (the grief system punishes you for this).

*If a Vanguard Gunner destroys an enemy tank and the explosion of that enemy tank hits a friendly unit the Gunner of the Vanguard will receive Grief. This makes you think twice about shooting an enemy tank...this ISN'T the way combat should be, why should you be afraid of shooting an enemy? This is one of the reason's you'll often see a damaged enemy AMS in the center of hundreds of friendly infantry, no one will shoot that AMS because they're afraid of receiving Grief.

Example 1:

Situation
Vanguard A and Vanguard B are engaging MagRider A.
Vanguard B and MagRider A are ramming each other. MagRider A has 10% health left while Vanguard B has 30%. Vanguard B is stuck and therefore CAN NOT fire at MagRider A, MagRider A can and is fireing at Vanguard B. The Gunner for Vanguard A knows that he will have to shoot the MagRider. Yes he will injure Vanguard B but he will not destroy it. He WILL destroy MagRider A, thus he will save Vanguard B's life.

Outcome
The gunner for Vanguard A will receive 80-120 Grief Points for SAVING Vanguard B's Life!

Proposed Modification
I propose we modfiy the Grief System so if a unit shoots an bullet and that bullet hits the enemy BEFORE hitting a friendly unit all grief for that shot is VOID.

Example 2:

Situation
MagRider A is about to run over NC Soldier 1 and NC Soldier 2. Vanguard A sees this and fires at MagRider A. He hits and destroys MagRider A but the explosion of MagRider A kills NC Soldier 1 and NC Soldier 2.

OutCome
Vanguard A's Gunner is then awarded for a large amount of Grief. This should NOT be the case because NC Soldier 1 and NC Soldier 2 were going to be killed by the MagRider anyway and Vanguard Gunner A did not intend to injure NC Soldier 1 and NC Soldier 2, this was just a misfortune of combat.

Proposed Modification
The same modification as above should be implemented: I propose we modfiy the Grief System so if a unit shoots an bullet and that bullet hits the enemy BEFORE hitting a friendly unit all grief for that shot is VOID.

Counter Arguments

Some people will say "the Grief system will punish you for occasionally accidentally shooting a friendly, but it is designed so that only deliberate and repititive team killers will suffer".

My response: Not true, this is true for Infantry assaulting other friendly Infantry, but not for Tank to Tank Combat. I fired ONE SHELL at an enemy MagRider, I destroyed that MagRider and recevied 80 Grief Points because it slightly damaged another friendly unit. This means all you have to do is destroy 16 Enemy Tanks who happen to be near another friendly unit, and then you'll get WEAPONS LOCK. That is exactly what happened to me.

Some may say "this could be exploited"

My response: Yes it could, but it would be so difficult it isn't worth it. A team killer would have to align it so that an enemy unit was next to a friendly when he shot him. This is practically impossible...

Closure
The Grief system is designed to punish people who INTENTIONALLY shoot enemy units. It does a very good job doing that, but it is harming the Gunners of Heavy Tanks. This proposal requires no new features, only a minor code modification. "I don't know about you but I won't be gunning for a vanguard anytime soon, and when I do I'm not going to hit an enemy if he is even remotely near another friendly unit." Devs: Is that what you want to hear?

-Delta
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Old 2003-11-28, 05:18 PM   [Ignore Me] #2
Rayder
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When using the word 'an' the letter 'a' is the first letter of the word right after 'an'

Besides that ltitle tidbit of information, this would work.
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Old 2003-11-28, 05:59 PM   [Ignore Me] #3
Hexen
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Sounds good to me.

I reckon you should always get grief if you KILL a teammate though, maybe not as much if you damage an enemy as well. With the 2nd example you gave, the Vanguard could have waitted until the Magrider had run down the teammates if he realised it was too late. Then he could have killed the Magrider still and gotten no grief anyway.

It's perfectly fine to kill enemies and hurt teammates when it saves or helps someone, but you should always avoid outright killing teammates.
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Old 2003-11-28, 06:01 PM   [Ignore Me] #4
Seer
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I can see where you are coming from with the accidental enemy explosions, but I disagree with your assertion that the grief system is primarily in place so that intentional teamkillers are punished. I believe it is just as vital to the game that accidental teamkillers are mindful of the massive amounts of splash damage they are putting out, and are also punished if they fail to control it.
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Old 2003-11-28, 06:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #5
delta
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Originally Posted by Seer
I disagree with your assertion that the grief system is primarily in place so that intentional teamkillers are punished. I believe it is just as vital to the game that accidental teamkillers are mindful of the massive amounts of splash damage they are putting out, and are also punished if they fail to control it.
That isn't my opinion, it's just a counter argument I thought I'd address before it came up.
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Old 2003-11-28, 06:58 PM   [Ignore Me] #6
Gunslanger
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this is not totally in line with your statement, delta, but i another good think (in my opinion) that should be implimented is that grief points going down FASTER. at least while your ONLINE.
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Old 2003-11-28, 07:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #7
delta
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Originally Posted by Gunslanger
this is not totally in line with your statement, delta, but i another good think (in my opinion) that should be implimented is that grief points going down FASTER. at least while your ONLINE.
I agree
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Old 2003-11-28, 07:29 PM   [Ignore Me] #8
Jagd
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The only problem I can see with your modification is that it doesn't take splash damage into account. Your Vanguard shell falls just short of its target, and the splash damage hurts everyone around it, including the enemy. You would still get the grief, even with your new system.

I think the main problem with grief is that it doesn't punish lemmings who run in the way. Basically if there is a tank fight going on, you should get the fuck out of the way. Don't cluster around the enemy tank and shoot your cycler at, back up so your friends can pummel it with tank shells.

What if they set it up so that the first couple of times you hit a teammate THEY get grief, but if you continue hitting them, the grief starts coming to you. I would leave the escalation of grief levels alone, so that if someone runs in front of you they get a little bit of grief and will likely get out of the way. However, when you continue to shoot them the large grief penalties start piling onto your grief level. I think that might work pretty well.
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Old 2003-11-28, 07:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #9
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example 2: how do you know that the soliders wouldn't be able to save themselves. theres always that slight possiblity, and when you kill them in prediction of something, you also kill that possibility. that is what the grief is for.
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Old 2003-11-28, 07:42 PM   [Ignore Me] #10
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a little story: when i was about a month into playing, i got SO sick of people jumping in front of me in zergs. i would wait behind the front lines until people died and there was room for me, and i'd go up and start shooting. what happens, a ton of idiots keep throwing themselves at the enemy and IN FRONT of you. eventually, i got sooo mad, i just said screw it. people that were jumping in front of me, i had no regard for them bad idea...yep, wasn't long before my comet got me a weapons lock. needless to say, i don't use that philosophy anymore

but, when you play alot, your grief doesn't go down enough. granted, i haven't had a weapons lock up since that one and only time, but i remember how SLOW that grief went down-and i still havent' gotten rid of it fully.
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Old 2003-11-28, 08:00 PM   [Ignore Me] #11
Acaila
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I am not a fan of this idea. What is to stop the Vanguard gunner from putting a shell right into an enemy infantry that is in the midst of friendlies? Grief should be recieved for that. Also the effect upon splash damage weapons in infantry combat wouldn't be desirable. It is more incentive for the plasma thumper user to take the shot at the enemies in close range who are being assaulted by HA users, aslong as they hit the enemy first they get no grief. They should get a shit load of grief for such careless and inappropriate use of their weapon.

As a frequent Vanguard gunner, imho the modification they should make is remove grief from the resulting explosion that is caused from destroying an enemy vehicle, not the actual shot itself. The grief system to me is designed to punish griefers and reckless fire, unfortunately it is hard to develop a system which distinguishes betweem reckless fire and a necessary shot.

The splash on a Vanguard is big, but not as big as most people think. Rarely do you have a situation where the grief comes from the shell itself, atleast not for more than 1 shot. It is the explosion from the destroyed vehicle that causes the grief. Just remove the grief from the destruction of an enemy vehicle that splashes friendlies.
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Old 2003-11-28, 09:46 PM   [Ignore Me] #12
Flammey
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I agree with this. If a friendly weapon hits and enemy, the grief shouldn't be there. Just because there are 20 VS soldiers converging on an NC AMS and I happen to be the last shot fired on the AMS destroying it, and the explosion kills those 20 soldiers, why should I get all that grief? Those VS soldiers should have known better than to be so close to an AMS being attacked.

In this way, the system of Grief is broken.

Splash damage is another story entirely.

Last edited by Flammey; 2003-11-28 at 09:48 PM. Reason: added extra sentence
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Old 2003-11-28, 09:55 PM   [Ignore Me] #13
WritheNC
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I agree with the explosion not causing grief, but splash damage should still cause grief, even if it hits an enemy first.

I mean, then you could kill friendly infiltrators hacking enemy vehicles with impunity.
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Old 2003-11-28, 10:02 PM   [Ignore Me] #14
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If only those bastards that run in front of me while im fucking shooting would get grief, Id be happy.
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Old 2003-11-28, 10:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #15
Flammey
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Yeah, splash damage should still cause grief. It is an effect, not a cause. A vehicle exploding is a cause, not an effect.

You might say, Huh? I'll simplify. Splash is an effect of firing a, say 150mm round. A vehicle exploding is the cause of firing the last shot at it.
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