Gameplay: Variable Fighters - Balanced Transforming Walker/Aircraft (Think Viking from SC2)

[Zekeen]

Originally Posted by Rexdezi

better traction... than a TANK?? NOTHING has better traction than tracks. NOTHING. Certainly not bloody legs.

I don't think you understand how tracks work. Really, tracks are like across between legs and wheels. It's a constant placement of track plates in order to move, it's a lot like walking, but it is still run by wheels turning them. Occasionally the ground gives way, and as a result, the tracks DIG into the ground, giving it trouble with traction. It also has trouble on softer ground types. Legs get better traction because they don't move on the ground, they step over it. Legs are far slower, but have far better traction than tracks, because they don't move, they lift, move, drop, repeat.

Originally Posted by Zolan

Starting to sound like BFRs with wings... and we all know how much everyone hated BFRs.

I talked quite a bit on this if you'll reread my post. A BFR was a god mode vehicle. It had the best guns, best armor, had shields, and could fly. It was basically the idea of a "boss mode" vehicle, but everyone could use them at once. That's why it screwed up. If a vehicle is WEAKER than a Lightning, then it isn't a BFR. It's more of a mobility standard with less speed for versatility.

Well, I now know to never post any ideas without concepts anymore. People start thinking it has something to do with something it doesn't.

[Rexdezi]

Originally Posted by Zekeen

I don't think you understand how tracks work. Really, tracks are like across between legs and wheels. It's a constant placement of track plates in order to move, it's a lot like walking, but it is still run by wheels turning them. Occasionally the ground gives way, and as a result, the tracks DIG into the ground, giving it trouble with traction. It also has trouble on softer ground types. Legs get better traction because they don't move on the ground, they step over it. Legs are far slower, but have far better traction than tracks, because they don't move, they lift, move, drop, repeat.

I don't think YOU understand how tracks work. They work by having the largest amount of surface area to increase traction. Tracks are unrivaled in the amount of traction they get. You try walk through a sand dune... the softer ground you mentioned... There is NOTHING better than tank tracks to get theough. You walk through it in your shoes or even your imaginary walker... you will sink into the sand, whereas the tank that weighs a fuckton and a half more than you, will just power on by you.

legs better than tracks? what have you been smoking kid?

[VoodooJanus]

But now consider the forest: your tank can't drive across the fallen log easily without destroying it (in the game, this is impossible) while the walker can simply step over it. I think the problem is that the OP didn't mean 'traction'.

Legs however do have a good advantage over treads when crossing difficult ground. Rarely would they get stuck on a rock, for instance. Or when navigating narrow passes: treads tend to lose out because they NEED larger amounts of surface area to function, even though in softer soils they have an advantage because they have access to it.

It's an admirable idea, and could be done properly. I think they should function first and foremost as an Anti Infantry unit, then as an AV unit.

[Sirisian]

Sounds like a nice balanced design that would be fun. I've been rather disappointed with their choice of only including real world vehicles in the game and not using any of the science fiction concepts to their fullest. Starhawk was brought up before in the mech threads. . Sounds similar to what you're describing with the Starcraft 2 vehicle.

[Zolan]

Originally Posted by Zekeen

I talked quite a bit on this if you'll reread my post. A BFR was a god mode vehicle. It had the best guns, best armor, had shields, and could fly. It was basically the idea of a "boss mode" vehicle, but everyone could use them at once. That's why it screwed up. If a vehicle is WEAKER than a Lightning, then it isn't a BFR. It's more of a mobility standard with less speed for versatility.

Well, I now know to never post any ideas without concepts anymore. People start thinking it has something to do with something it doesn't.

The idea is fine, it's just that it's filling a gap that it can't fill without being good at both air and vehicle combat like BFRs were. If it's pretty much a Reaver with legs and is competing in both air and ground combat, dedicated air and ground vehicles will utterly destroy it. Not to mention the easy kills for infantry with lock-on missiles and flak weapons, if it would move at lower speeds as was suggested.

[Toppopia]

I rather like the MechWarrior 4 mech designs, such a fun game, and i wondered if they were making a MechWarrior 5, nope. They are making a MechWarrior MMO, lol. Trying their hand at the big leagues. Hope it doesn't fail.

On Topic: Or the style vehicles the Japanese have in Red Alert 3, all the crazy ones that have 2 functions. Normally 1 ground 1 air. Crazy stuff.

[Red Beard]

Originally Posted by Zolan

Starting to sound like BFRs with wings... and we all know how much everyone hated BFRs.

So, is there a reason you dislike BFR's besides the fact that they were imbalanced?

[Rexdezi]

Originally Posted by VoodooJanus

But now consider the forest: your tank can't drive across the fallen log easily without destroying it (in the game, this is impossible) while the walker can simply step over it. I think the problem is that the OP didn't mean 'traction'.

However, a tank can very easily get passed that fallen log, if the log is thin enough yeah it will just be annihilated under the 50 or so tonne behemoth driving over it, if its a hundred year old tree or whatever, and could withstand that weight, I still see no reason why the tank couldnt get across.

Legs however do have a good advantage over treads when crossing difficult ground. Rarely would they get stuck on a rock, for instance. Or when navigating narrow passes: treads tend to lose out because they NEED larger amounts of surface area to function, even though in softer soils they have an advantage because they have access to it.

Think of when you walk across rough terrain, have you ever twisted an ankle on a loose rock? Think about if that walker places his foot down on something loose, it comes away, all the hydraulics and pistons in that foot are severed. The whole walker is now a liability. Walkers are the WORST kind of transport imaginable on rough terrain

It's an admirable idea, and could be done properly. I think they should function first and foremost as an Anti Infantry unit, then as an AV unit.

.

[Talek Krell]

Originally Posted by Zekeen

A mech is sometimes called a vertical tank however, and works better in tight quarters and it's elevator gives it better aiming though it becomes a bigger(taller) target. It can utilize cover better, and generally is noted for better traction as it has no treads or wheels.

Originally Posted by Zekeen

I can assure you that such a machine has a place and use beside any tank. I think these ideas through, and I spent an hour drawing out sketches to see what the bodies of each form would look like and if it had any plausibility in placement during a transformed mode.

Your assurances seem to based on made-up performance data gleaned from a misunderstanding of physics and having spent some time making fanart, so I'm not especially reassured on either the subject of this specific idea or the concept of mechanized walkers in general.

Maybe if you just told me what this place that they have is instead of just insisting that it exists? Why, precisely, do we need these?

[Zekeen]

Originally Posted by Rexdezi

I don't think YOU understand how tracks work. They work by having the largest amount of surface area to increase traction. Tracks are unrivaled in the amount of traction they get. You try walk through a sand dune... the softer ground you mentioned... There is NOTHING better than tank tracks to get theough. You walk through it in your shoes or even your imaginary walker... you will sink into the sand, whereas the tank that weighs a fuckton and a half more than you, will just power on by you.

legs better than tracks? what have you been smoking kid?

Ok, I see what's going on here. We're looking at different traction zones.

I concede to you on the idea of ground area, I had forgotten that, yes you are right. But I am also talking about traction when it comes two other things. Skidding and Torque.

A tank at high speed can still skid. It may have great tracks, but it weighs so much that the momentum can make it difficult to turn correctly. But that's only at high speeds, and a mech wouldn't be able to go that fast. A mech would have a higher acceleration though, just a much lower top speed.

A tank has a MUCH harder time going uphill than a mech, which would be able to reposition the torso and use legs to step up better and gain balance. The game WILL have Torque btw, you can change out mods for better speed or Torque, so a fast tank would have trouble going up an incline. In the end, a mech would be very good for a hilly region, being much more stable fighting uphill.

Originally Posted by Talek Krell

Your assurances seem to based on made-up performance data gleaned from a misunderstanding of physics and having spent some time making fanart, so I'm not especially reassured on either the subject of this specific idea or the concept of mechanized walkers in general.

Maybe if you just told me what this place that they have is instead of just insisting that it exists? Why, precisely, do we need these?

You want a freakin resume or something dude? You need to chill out, your attacks are starting to be personal, so just stop before you lodge that stick up your ass any further up. You're going off on this like a mecha killed your parents. Be a bit more constructive instead of trying to show me down as some sort of idiot who doesn't know what he's saying. It's degrading. I know quite a bit more than you think I do. If you think the idea isn't working out, why not point out the specifics.

The place is a fast response ground assistance craft that can turn faster on land than a tank can in order for it to avoid enemy fire. Elevated firing position to fire over smaller obstacles that a tank cannot hit (or firing over the tank). Better torque for uphill combat. Vertical positioning to allow it to use cover better. It's not about being a lone killer, it's about being backup, and that's what it can do.

Also, it's fun. If it's not game destroying and it's fun, why should we NOT have it? Add a bit of sci-fi to the game vehicles other than the Vanu. I'm not suggesting anything tall, just 10-12 feet tall. It'd fit in design and gameplay.

[Talek Krell]

Originally Posted by Zekeen

You want a freakin resume or something dude? You need to chill out, your attacks are starting to be personal, so just stop before you lodge that stick up your ass any further up. You're going off on this like a mecha killed your parents. Be a bit more constructive instead of trying to show me down as some sort of idiot who doesn't know what he's saying. It's degrading. I know quite a bit more than you think I do.

I am just going to quote yourself back at you.

Originally Posted by Zekeen;745181I

f you wouldn't take everything as an implied insult maybe you wouldn't feel so attacked.

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Originally Posted by Zekeen

The place is a fast response ground assistance craft that can turn faster on land than a tank can in order for it to avoid enemy fire. Elevated firing position to fire over smaller obstacles that a tank cannot hit (or firing over the tank). Better torque for uphill combat.

The problem is that we already have a variety of vehicles that do this. The Lightning is designed as a fast moving support vehicle, and the Lib can already do everything that you've specified for this (that makes sense) but better, and without ever needing to make the transformers noise.

We are not blessed with limitless resources here. Everything that gets put in this game consumes time, money, and the opportunity to spend those on other things. And I take exception to your statement that the NC and TR vehicles aren't sci-fi. Putting legs on something doesn't make it futuristic.

[Rexdezi]

Originally Posted by Zekeen

Ok, I see what's going on here. We're looking at different traction zones.

I concede to you on the idea of ground area, I had forgotten that, yes you are right. But I am also talking about traction when it comes two other things. Skidding and Torque.

A tank at high speed can still skid. It may have great tracks, but it weighs so much that the momentum can make it difficult to turn correctly. But that's only at high speeds, and a mech wouldn't be able to go that fast. A mech would have a higher acceleration though, just a much lower top speed.

A tank has a MUCH harder time going uphill than a mech, which would be able to reposition the torso and use legs to step up better and gain balance. The game WILL have Torque btw, you can change out mods for better speed or Torque, so a fast tank would have trouble going up an incline. In the end, a mech would be very good for a hilly region, being much more stable fighting uphill.

A tank has a harder time going uphill than a walker? Seriously?
Thats gotta be the stupidest thing Ive heard all day.
Watch this:

imagine a walker trying to get up there... they'd fall backwards, or their feet would slip out from beneath them and theyd faceplant the hill.

even YOU would have trouble with regular feet.

Walkers do not have great mobility. A tank would even get up stairs better than a damn walker!

The ONLY type of walker with greater mobility is those from the 40k universe, the Titans... and thats only because they can step over buildings n shit...

[The Degenatron]

Originally Posted by Zolan

Starting to sound like BFRs with wings... and we all know how much everyone hated BFRs.

Who's got two thumbs and hates the idea of giant robots in Planetside?

This guy right here.

[VoodooJanus]

No, my apologies, I wasn't clear enough: I wasn't talking about going OVER a log for crossing a creek/river etc, but rather that tanks have the unfortunate tendency to bottom out in the presence of large glacial rocks, sturdier logs and the like. In those situations, a walker has some advantage, because although they have less ability to move in adverse conditions, they also have a less set tread pattern, which allows them to avoid such obstacles due to an increased turning radius and the ability to sidestrafe, on top of the fact that they are (this is all of course hypothetical: no real walker exists to my knowledge aside from that man-powered thing) more capable of getting over small, uncrushable (like rocks) objects, less wide than a tread pattern, but taller than the bottoming out capacity of a traditional tank.

In game (which is really where we should be talking about,) a walker has a ton of advantages as they can get into areas that would be traditionally only accessible by infantry, such as dense forests, thin canyons and possibly the outer-most area of bases (leaving the true interiors to be occupied by infantry-only combat.) If they provide a good Anti Infantry platform, they could be an attacker's version of a max suit increasing mobility in exchange for less specialization (no anti air capabilities) and less armor. In addition to that: they'd make for a nice addition to an air attack, because they'd be able to break off from the group and get to any Anti-air sources that are unreachable by liberator/galaxy guns but too far removed to be worth doing a troop-drop.

I know how people think of BFR's, because I quit playing Planetside 1 after they introduced them. This guy's idea however is pretty neat: I see it as a slighly larger, more mobile version of a MAX suit, somewhat like the short-lived exosuit from the first Spiderman movie, with high mobility in exchange for less armor and vehicle-equivalent respawn timers.

[Geist]

The thing about variable fighters is that that role is already filled by VTOLs. If it wanted to, it could hover in the same spot as a walker, and kill everything, then fly away. So far the only advantage I hear is that it has as much armor as a Lightning and you can customize the armor on our VTOLs, so it's a moot point.