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Old 2012-05-07, 10:47 AM   [Ignore Me] #1
Baneblade
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France Rejects Sarkozy and Austerity


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EMMA ALBERICI, PRESENTER: Francois Hollande, France's first socialist president in 17 years, has begun the task of forming his government.

And already Mr Hollande has promised to wind back austerity measures and promote growth to get France out of its financial troubles.

But while the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, has welcomed Mr Hollande's victory, she has ruled out renegotiating the European Union's so-called fiscal pact.

ABC correspondent Lisa Millar reports from Paris.

LISA MILLAR, REPORTER: With the party over, the reality is now sinking in.

VOX POP (voiceover translation): For us, for France, it's an opportunity, especially for education and health, to try and correct social imbalances and poverty in society, so we are happy. But it's going to be difficult given the current crisis and I believe that it will make us feel better.

VOX POP II (voiceover translation): Europe will surely collapse because of him, because Europe is running on the alliance between Sarkozy and Merkel.

LISA MILLAR: The president-elect headed to socialist headquarters this morning to thank supporters.

FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, FRENCH PRESIDENT-ELECT (voiceover translation): The plan for today is to work. Even if the handover isn't yet done, that'll come with time. We're still fixing it. I've got to be prepared. I said I was ready; now I really have to be.

LISA MILLAR: The markets delivered their verdict, falling across-the-board, pummelled by the concerns of uncertainty in both France and Greece.

ROBERT HALVER, BAADER BANK: Faced with the election in Greece and France, there's a real threat that the old debt problems in Europe could face a renaissance.

LISA MILLAR: Until now, Francois Hollande has had little contact with international leaders, but among the first to hear from him will be German chancellor Angela Merkel. After his inauguration on May 15th he'll travel to Berlin to tell her he wants to renegotiate the tough fiscal pact signed by his predecessor. He wants it to focus on growth instead. What happens at that meeting will be critical to the eurozone's stability.

CHRISTOPHER BICKERTON, POLITICAL ANALYST: The real test for Hollande will be to see whether at the European level he can actually fundamentally change the direction that's been taken. And that'll be quite a big challenge. And judging from the ability of previous leaders to achieve something like that, it'll be very tough. Elections seem to have a minimal impact on the direction the European Union policies take.

LISA MILLAR: Francois Hollande will feel the biggest pressure here in France. He's led his supporters to believe that there can be hope and optimism, despite the tough economic times. He'll have to act quickly to install a government and he'll have little time to prove that he's up to the challenges ahead.

He's likely to look for a mix of experience and youthfulness in his cabinet. Among the likely choices, a former prime minister.

LAURENT FABIUS, FORMER FRENCH PRIME MINISTER (voiceover translation): So we all know that we have massive deficits. We know that we have to reduce unemployment and increase growth and revive the public service and find a new contact to the people.

Revive Europe. This is the task. This is the commitment.

LISA MILLAR: A commitment some suggest may be almost impossible to uphold.

Lisa Millar, Lateline.
ABC Lateline

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Old 2012-05-07, 12:26 PM   [Ignore Me] #2
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Re: France Rejects Sarkozy and Austerity


The French. *shakes fist*

THE FRENCH! *shakes fist!*

Also. The Greek!
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Old 2012-05-07, 02:54 PM   [Ignore Me] #3
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Re: France Rejects Sarkozy and Austerity


As far as I'm concerned, Eurozone is gonna collapse regardless of what happens. The sooner France moves back to it's own national currency, the sooner they can start the real recovery process. There is no way France can take on any more than itself right now.

Of course, the problem with the Socialism party in France is that it still operates within the confines of Capitalism. So while some things may get better, any system that is limited by access to money will still be held back from being able to operate at full capacity.
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Old 2012-05-07, 07:20 PM   [Ignore Me] #4
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Re: France Rejects Sarkozy and Austerity


Tbh the French socialists will hurt the European economy quite badly and slow recuperation while sending the bill to the next generation. As usual.

Lending costs money. Apparently this is lost on people (particlarly socialist parties) who just want to get short term votes and results, which then are perceived as a minimum living standard. Meaning it's easy to improve people's lives using government money, but not easy to sober it up if budget management requires it.

Going out of the Eurozone with a country like France would be arbitrarily destroying money. Greece I could imagine, that's a small economy.
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Old 2012-05-12, 03:55 PM   [Ignore Me] #5
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Re: France Rejects Sarkozy and Austerity


When everone stops in business, when everyone stops going to work, when everyone makes no money to be taxed, I wonder how will socialism work.

When there is no money, no jobs ----

Maybe people will start businesses, go to work making and growing stuff, and give everything they make to everyone for free, and no one will want more then their share.

Everyone, will have everything, that everone else has, so everyone will be happy.

And the world will be as one.

France is just ahead of everyone else in Europe socially. It is just evolving into the next level.
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Old 2012-05-12, 06:17 PM   [Ignore Me] #6
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Re: France Rejects Sarkozy and Austerity


Originally Posted by Noivad View Post
When everone stops in business, when everyone stops going to work, when everyone makes no money to be taxed, I wonder how will socialism work.

When there is no money, no jobs ----

Maybe people will start businesses, go to work making and growing stuff, and give everything they make to everyone for free, and no one will want more then their share.

Everyone, will have everything, that everone else has, so everyone will be happy.

And the world will be as one.

France is just ahead of everyone else in Europe socially. It is just evolving into the next level.
On the 7th day, God created money. Right? Wait no, money is a man-made construct. People existed before money. We can do better, too.

Regardless of whether there is money to pay anyone, the means of production already exist in France. Reorganizing society so that everyone has a right to a home, a job, food, clothing, communication, education (that includes internet access), and providing non-transferable Labor Credits to everyone who works or goes to school (domestic housework counts as work) would get rid of the need for money within France. At that point, currency would be used for trading with other countries, or people could exchange their Labor Credits for currency of a country they want to travel to or buy from. And if someone refuses to work or receive education, they just don't get Labor Credits, but they still have a right to everything else.

Now I also want to remind everyone how the current economic crisis in America (and around the world) happened, of which there are many contributing factors.

-First off, wage stagnation since 1968, where wages (as measured by minimum wage) were the highest relative to their buying power. Since then, inflation has increased, consumer price index has increased, and wages did not increase proportionally to this. This means the value of the money people earned since 1968 has decreased, quite significantly in fact.

-Second, that made room for credit to be appealing. The "greatest nation in the world" mentality that everyone can have a car, a home, and a family, became a pressure felt by later generations. As a result of being paid less because of wage stagnation, credit arose as a way to let people buy things they want to buy without having the money to pay for it immediately. Over time, people got paid less, and borrowed more as a result.

-Credit was a major boon for corporations. Seeking ever-increasing profits as mandated by business law in America, they were able to pay the workers less, and save that money to put it in the bank. Corporations extract wealth from the workers, put it in the bank, and the bank loans it to people. This creates a negative spiral for the working class.

-As the banks became more powerful, they lobbied and paid off politicians to get their way in doing business. Making up low-quality, fraudulent, even criminal deals, they managed to imagine a bunch of money that didn't exist and make everyone else believe it was real. As all the bad deals came down, as everyone from individuals to entire countries suffer under the pressure of the bank catastrophe, the banks are still living large, still not being held accountable for any of this. Even though they are bloated, the banks are refusing to loan money.

And that is where we are right now. The workers got screwed, businesses got screwed, nations got screwed, and the banks got bailed out. It seems like money is quite a problem here in America. Maybe we should think of switching to a better system?

Last edited by Neurotoxin; 2012-05-12 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 2012-05-12, 07:31 PM   [Ignore Me] #7
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Re: France Rejects Sarkozy and Austerity


The corporations didn't extract money from the workers, they made profit off their labour, which is the point of a business. Most of the remainder - aside from the alternate system - I can agree with in big lines.

What is needed though is checks to keep excesses and foul play by banks under control. What happens in Europe after the central bank started handing out cheap loans, is interest being made by banks by lending that money and putting it elsewhere to gather interest, rather than loan it on to others.

That sort of thing is either naive and idealistic tunnelvision thinking by the CEB, or incompetence or typical from southern european bank managers: just inflate the economy by printing money! What should have happened would have been strict rules and investment plan on how the money lend by CEB would find its way into the economy, would you do this at all. Instead, they trusted the banks to do as they saw fit, while giving the banks strict liquidity demands (have certain amount of money available in cash). Of course these people would first make more (short term) money for themselves and the bank; it is what they are trained to do and what their contracts reward them for!

Last edited by Figment; 2012-05-12 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 2012-05-13, 03:50 AM   [Ignore Me] #8
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Re: France Rejects Sarkozy and Austerity


Originally Posted by Figment View Post
The corporations didn't extract money from the workers, they made profit off their labour, which is the point of a business.
Reducing workers to a factor in the cost of doing business is what you are talking about. If workers can be paid less, given less benefits, and worked harder, in search of ever-increasing profits, corporations will do it. Wal-Mart is a gleaming example of wage exploitation, they have programs to set their workers up on food stamps because its cheaper than paying them more. Most of the profit and excess that a company earns doesn't go to the labor, but the owners of the means of production, and the investor / shareholders (who are often the owners too).

Someone who can better explain all this is Prof. Richard Wolff. Just start watching his videos, listening to his lectures. You'll get the whole picture explained much better by someone who is a specialist in the subject of economics.

Last edited by Neurotoxin; 2012-05-13 at 03:51 AM.
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Old 2012-05-13, 08:05 PM   [Ignore Me] #9
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Re: France Rejects Sarkozy and Austerity


Form an union.
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Old 2012-05-18, 05:29 PM   [Ignore Me] #10
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Re: France Rejects Sarkozy and Austerity


Letting capitalism run wild and be irresponsible is what caused the economic woes of the 21st century. Tempering capitalism with socialism and government restrictions is the only way forward. Doesn't mean France will necessarily take the right steps, but at least the people aren't buying the bullshit anymore. Hopefully other nations (not the US of course, never'll happen) follow suit in the future and tell their conservatives to fuck themselves and their predatory capitalism, greasing the wheels of industry with the broken livelihoods of the citizen body.
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Old 2012-05-18, 07:39 PM   [Ignore Me] #11
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Re: France Rejects Sarkozy and Austerity


I like that....blame Capitalism.

Communism crashed and burned.

Socialism is currently crashing and burning.

But lets blame Europe's woes on Capitalism.
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Old 2012-05-18, 08:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #12
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The system that allowed the banks to make sneaky and underhanded deals that are still required to be enforced and paid off is what caused this. Communism and Socialism would likely do away with banks, or reduce them to be strictly a place where individuals and businesses can safely deposit money and have it returned when they need it.

Communism has rarely been seen in it's proper state for long. After the revolutionary leader dies, it often becomes more of a deformed worker state. Still, Russia was mostly full of poor dirt farmers before the revolution. After the revolution, amid battles with counter-revolutionaries sponsored and waged by 14 foreign nations, they were able to get everyone literacy and education while developing the infrastructure to defeat the invasion by Germany during WWII.

Paris Commune would have worked if the remaining French army and Prussian army didn't spend the next 3 months murdering them all in cold blood to restore capitalism in France.

Cuba is cooking on the top burner given the embargo on them, they have the best medical education and organic farming techniques in the world, nobody is homeless or hungry, and prisons are reformatory institutions instead of dungeons like in America (you can even get a degree in nursing while in prison there). Despite what US media tries to paint, they do actually have a direct democracy in Cuba.
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Old 2012-05-18, 08:42 PM   [Ignore Me] #13
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Re: France Rejects Sarkozy and Austerity


Nepotism and living above ones standards and irresponsibility caused all of this.

American Banks and banks in southern Europe in particular on the capitalist side, too large governments on the southern Europe side. As well as visionaries of an unified Europe before parts that joined had actually matured. People looking at nations like Greece and thinking their economy and discipline were just as solid, properly diversivued and trustworthy as those from northern Europe, for all are equal...

There is a lot more blame to spread around but what we need now is an economical answer and a realistic long term plan. And most of all, enforced budgetary discipline.

Last edited by Figment; 2012-05-18 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 2012-05-18, 09:01 PM   [Ignore Me] #14
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Re: France Rejects Sarkozy and Austerity


Capitalism has its evils, but economic bubbles aren't generally one of them. The credit system needs to go. The idea that people can (and should) live their entire lives in debt is atrocious.
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Old 2012-05-19, 03:22 AM   [Ignore Me] #15
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Re: France Rejects Sarkozy and Austerity


The banks are simply lending in a predatory fashion to nations through the central banks (cartels). It's not about left or right, socialism or capitalism, they are simply nationalizing private liabilities and privatizing national assets. It's just a scam. Then they invent the red vs blue political shell game so the people don't unite against it. It's painfully obvious.
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