Game theory: PS2 base design without /jetpacks/ and Liberator /cannons/

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Rothnang

I think this is something base design can address, like by having walls that aren't open everywhere, but instead have murderholes to fire out of without giving LAs a thousand ways inside. I mean, LAs should have maybe twice the access points as other troops, not unlimited access.

Sure murder holes limit the amount of windows an LA can enter the base through (and people can exit the base from), problem with that is that murder holes limits the freedom of movement for defenders as well and if you have a roof that can be reached, the LA can still just skip over it. You can't fire at aircraft through murder holes, you can't fire down at tanks that are moving through murder holes. You need walls with merlonned areas, but those are per definition accessible by LA.

Plus, even the murder holes that exist today are easily accessed by LA to fire inwards. Cleared many CCs that way.

There is no solution to address this sort of 3D defense against 1080º vectors from the outside. Even domes just provide LA with a camping position on top over entry points (see Bio Lab).

The only way you can funnel LA and make their jetpack relatively useless is by having indoor areas where they can't use their jump ability and have to move through the same door choke points as everyone else. But the buildings are too small and too lacking in depth and linearity to have that.

Alternatively, the only way to keep LA out of high positions is to have higher buildings than their jetpack can reach (and with the hugthewallbug I don't believe there are many places that keep LA out, just slow them down).

[Rothnang]

I don't think people should be having particularly good success firing at aircraft out of buildings.

I mean, you pretty much never deploy a MANPAD inside of a building in real life for two main reasons:

1. A building is not bomb proof in real life, quite the opposite. If you're inside of a structure you're a huge target, way more likely to die in the blast because of falling debris, or collapsing floors.

2. Firing a rocket launcher inside of a building is a massively shitty idea because of backblast, and none of the PS2 launchers seem to have a soft launch system.

Amusingly enough, Air Defense Infantry in real life wants to be deployed in all the places that are the very worst places to be against air in PS2.


While I don't think the game needs to simulate those factors, I don't see it as a problem at all if the buildings themselves are constructed in such a way that they aren't perfect places for air defense.


Reducing the size of windows has worked pretty well for most buildings in the game so far. I don't see why it wouldn't work for the battlements of walls.

The fact that you can over the walls so easily is because Auraxis' architects are too obsessed with interesting shapes to contemplate maybe not giving attacking LAs a convenient ledge to rest on while they scale your stronghold.

[BlaxicanX]

If LA's lost their jetpacks, the class would be even more irrelevant than it is now, which is saying something. It's already a niche class that people play basically just because. It fills no actually nescesarry role, like the Infiltrator, and unlike the holy trinity of HA/Medic/Engy.

edit- Also, lol @ LA's with C4 being "a problem" for tanks. C4'ing a tank as a Light Assault is the riskiest thing you can possibly do in this entire game, because if anyone sees you, the tank, people wandering around the tank, etc, it's completely over. You're just dead, and there's nothing you can do. Even if you get to the tank, you have to pray to God that no one sees you, or the tank driver doesn't switch to 3rd person view, because the throwing mechanics for C4 is such unwieldy ass that you can kill an LA easily in the time between laying down the C4 and actually pressing the trigger.

Yeah, 2xC4 ganks tanks, and it damn well should, because running up to a tank and trying to blow it up by hand is one of the least-efficient forms of Anti-armor out there, especially in a world where anyone can play as a Heavy Assault, and fuck up a tank from 200 yards with ease.

[Sledgecrushr]

Not only does the la need a jetpack. But the la needs some other utility as well. This is a class that really needs some more love.

[Rothnang]

Originally Posted by BlaxicanX

C4'ing a tank as a Light Assault is the riskiest thing you can possibly do in this entire game, because if anyone sees you, the tank, people wandering around the tank, etc, it's completely over.

How is there any risk involved? You respawn for free when you die. The C4 is still on you if you didn't get to drop it. The only way there is any risk in this is if you MISS with your C4 and it blows up without killing the tank.


That said, I have no problem with C4 when I drive a tank, because it's avoidable. Getting killed by C4 is punishment for not paying attention, there is no situation where you get C4ed in a tank that you couldn't have avoided while still being able to join in the fight.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Rothnang

I don't think people should be having particularly good success firing at aircraft out of buildings.

[...]

While I don't think the game needs to simulate those factors, I don't see it as a problem at all if the buildings themselves are constructed in such a way that they aren't perfect places for air defense.

Of course, just saying that this opens the buildings and bases up to any jetpacker.

Reducing the size of windows has worked pretty well for most buildings in the game so far. I don't see why it wouldn't work for the battlements of walls.

Ballustrade has a different role.

The fact that you can over the walls so easily is because Auraxis' architects are too obsessed with interesting shapes to contemplate maybe not giving attacking LAs a convenient ledge to rest on while they scale your stronghold.

Definitely a huge issue in that respect. If they just reduced the max height of the jumpjet and removed most the extra stuff on the outside of walls, it'd be a big difference already. Same with all the small ledges on building sides you can use as stepping stones.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by Figment

What I find interesting is how many people think they or others couldn't live without a jetpack, yet don't seem to realise just how powerful and impacting an ability like this is. Without LA, walls and high ground would be a much greater defender's strength. Distribution of defenders would immediately be much more focused and fights would be much more push forward, push back oriented without LA. Just think of how an AMP station would change or even how currently indefensible outposts would be much harder to take. LA is the reason that a small squad can't use chokepoints in a building, because it is LA that gets behind them or uses a window against them.

Originally Posted by Rothnang

I think this is something base design can address, like by having walls that aren't open everywhere, but instead have murderholes to fire out of without giving LAs a thousand ways inside. I mean, LAs should have maybe twice the access points as other troops, not unlimited access.

Have to agree with Roth on this point Fig.
Coming from my Second Life Military Experiance, limited boost Jump-packs are far from the worst things to deal with in FPS Base Design, such as buoyancy modifiers that allow one to bound 200 meters in the air as though they were a helium-filled balloon person.

Problem is we got a bunch of shitty prefab shacks that an art team thought LOOKED like good Bases, but never bothered to play-test these structures to see how they would work mechanically within the game.

I've got a sneaking suspicion Malorn is behind some of the overhauled layouts on the Test Server like NS Refinery, since those focus more on using simpler building assets to construct functional Shooter Maps instead of the same damn building copypasta'd in slightly different direction.

Throwing a wrench into a Light Assault's Jet-packing isn't really all that hard to do from a defensive design stand-point, you just have to put obstacles in their way that make them waste fuel.

Hell, an extra single thin wall set far enough apart from the main one that they can't jump from one top to the next will ruin their day, landing them in a no-mans-land kill-box with no immediate means of escape.

[p0intman]

Originally Posted by Figment

It's irrelevant whether this is going to happen or not, nor whether you would like it or not. Let's ignore that for now and just concentrate on how you think it would play out, objectively.

"What would happen in relation to base design and gameplay if one of the following changes was made?"


1. Light Assault:
- Jetpacks removed
- Sprint boost added ("Surge")
EDIT:
(- No firing while surging)

2.1 Liberator:
- Cannons removed
- Bombhatches added

2.2 Liberator:
- Cannons restricted to very small downward angles
- Reduced rate of fire
- Liberator restricted in maneuvrability (especially stall angles)


Q1: What would become easier?

Q2: What would become harder?

Q3: What other roles/units would increase in importance?

Q4: What would happen to general population behaviour?

Q5: What would happen to the playstyles of these units?

q1: base defense and fights would become more fun, light assault wouldn't be able to just bypass defenses at a whim.
q2: assaulting towers. light assaults could also no longer jump around during a fight and c4 vehicles
q3: nearly all other units might actually have a purpose. gal gunships would become popular.
q4: people may actually be able to have fun in a large fight without being overwhelmed by hovering lib-spam, libs might actually have to move around while bombing
q5: the lib pilots playstyle might actually become more interesting as they would be forced to strafe a position and *fly* instead of hover around an area.

[Rothnang]

I actually think the PS2 base designers are doing an amazing job, most of the problems we have are in fact not caused by them doing a bad job, but them doing too good of a job with the wrong intentions.

They have kept every base pretty much entirely fair and designed every base in such a way that you can't just bottle up all comers in one spot and keep them out forever. Generally speaking it's a well implemented design for a shooter.

The problem we're seeing is that when people are outnumbered they tend to go on defense, and find that they aren't really getting any serious advantage out of fighting on their home turf. That's frustrating to people because it gives you that sense that quantity beats quality way too easily in the game.

[BlaxicanX]

Originally Posted by Rothnang

How is there any risk involved? You respawn for free when you die.

This is a video game. There is no such thing as actual risk. Oh, you don't like waiting 5 minutes for your Liberator to respawn? Who cares, it's just a game, if not's like you die IRL.

Please spare me the "no risk" argument. All risk in a game is arbitrary.

[Rothnang]

Originally Posted by BlaxicanX

Oh, you don't like waiting 5 minutes for your Liberator to respawn? Who cares, it's just a game, if not's like you die IRL.

I am dying in real life. We're all dying. If you get too old it's light out, so as a matter of fact, having my time wasted is fractional murder.

[BlaxicanX]

You go to Hell when you die, so it's not so bad.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by Rothnang

I actually think the PS2 base designers are doing an amazing job, most of the problems we have are in fact not caused by them doing a bad job, but them doing too good of a job with the wrong intentions.

They have kept every base pretty much entirely fair and designed every base in such a way that you can't just bottle up all comers in one spot and keep them out forever. Generally speaking it's a well implemented design for a shooter.

Uh... no... They are not.

They pretty much created Outpost by copy and pasting the same half a dozen structures in a rough circle, then plopped a Control Point and a Spawn Building down.
If we were doing Single Instance Maps with roughly 100 players, maybe that would work, but we're not...

Originally Posted by Rothnang

The problem we're seeing is that when people are outnumbered they tend to go on defense, and find that they aren't really getting any serious advantage out of fighting on their home turf. That's frustrating to people because it gives you that sense that quantity beats quality way too easily in the game.

No, the problem is the Bases and the very field itself were TOO open...

Now don't get me wrong, I understand wanting to prevent turtling, but this is clearly an issue if they are putting further Continent development on hold so they can fix this.

When a Vehicle Horde can not only push in whatever direction they want on the map, but also roll though all except the most hardened of your Defenses, of course you are going to feel that it's just a Numbers game.

Is the new Lattice helping?
On a Strategic Level, YES, you can no longer avoid Points of Resistance by passively flowing around them.

But on a Tactical Level there is still much that needs to be done so that when we ARE forced to fight one another, it's more then just a contest of "Who brought the most X."