ESF Air to Air Feedback for Devs - Page 4

Falcon_br · 2013-05-10, 12:38 AM

I already thought in a new liberator, one with 3 gunners with the weapon to the sides.
Bigger them the standard liberator, but smaller them a galaxy, not for much.
Can only be deployed on tech plant and warp gates, same cost of the galaxy.
2 heavy weapons, one medium, like 2 dalton or 2 zephyr, or 1 each and the last one with the same weapons of the tail gunner of the liberator, but more smaller ground weapons, like a m60, a high velocity Vulcan, a dual link kobalt, who knows! I just know this game need more dual link weapons!
With a so heavy air support, with increase range because the weapons are on the side, air support will be more necessary, because it can't defend itself against chasing ESF, and they can kill most ground anti air because they are on the move with increase range and firepower.
Of course flying over a amp station with 6 turret and 3 maxes will still kill you fast, so you must circle it around and kill one anti air each time.

Gatekeeper · 2013-05-10, 03:58 AM

Originally Posted by CraazyCanuck

I think a few things need to happen before any further improvements to the air game can be had. Here’s what I had in mind.

Increased ceiling threshold. Switch Skyguard and Max burster. Make the skyguard's the true ground A2A threat while decreasing the range of the Max. Next they need to get rid of duality weapons platforms and allow focused combat for ESF. Get rid of Hovering ESF & Liberators, increase overall airspeed and introduce stalling. Allow only Gals the ability to hover, and its ability to do so is only a short period of time to execute accurate hot drops.

Change flares to munitions based platform with a magazine and reload time. It can be certed for improved capacity and reload time. Show incoming missiles on radar within a radius around your aircraft.

ESF A2G - rocketpods are gone and instead an A2G focused esf has two options for secondary.
1) Napalm/Plasma (call it what you will) (AI) - narrow area effect carpet, good damage against infantry and very weak damage vs armor/turrets. It has dot effect providing an area of denial. Small carry capacity. Certs can be used to improve area of effect and perhaps the length of the dot.
2) A2G AV lock on missiles. Short lock on, Fire and Forget missile. Limited capacity similar to the napalm. Excellent damage versus ground armor/turrets. Little damage against surrounding infantry caught in the explosion.

ESF A2A – 3 options
1) Dumbfire – equivalent to lolpods as they are now but focused dmg vs other aircraft. Improved velocity and dmg, but smaller carry capacity. Flares have no effect.
2) Medium Range A2A – lock on as they are right now without the 50% failure chance and improved velocity.
3) Long Range lock on – slower then medium range (equivalent to what the medium velocity is right now), takes longer to lock, smaller carry capacity but heavy hitter. ESF can avoid if aware enough. Meant as a liberator/gal hunter.

Nose Gun - 3 Options (these weapons will be very effective for their chosen target, and weak against all others) – AV (Tank Buster), AI (kobalt equivalent), AA (rotary/hailstorm)

Liberator – get rid of the Dalton and Zephyr. How and the hell does the aircraft even flying properly with those big heavy guns rotating around on that belly? Nose gun option is strictly AA or AV. Keeps the Tank buster but also has the option for a Rotary/Hailstorm equivalent.
Belly gunner is changed to Bombadier with various payload possibilities to allow them to focus on a particular target. Could allow a limited carry capacity for various types of bombs AI/AV/specials to be certed and carried to improve its versatility.

Specials can be various things - Napalm, AV bombs, Nanite Bombs to drop on friend armor with a large AE repair over time and its infantry equivalent. Larger versions of infantry flashbangs that work on infantry and vehicles/turrets, or improved smokescreens or their equivalent to hide friendly movements. Acid bombs that provide area denial in a larger area that effects infantry and armor both. A2A turret/mines that deploy and hover in place for a set duration.

Tail Gunner – Improved angle and rotation depending of the turret weapon chosen but. Turret Options
1) Burster AA gun
2) Medium or long range Missiles
3) Bulldog

Edit: dang lost a good chunk of my post.

Good ideas, although I think some of those would require a bit much work and so probably aren't practical in the short term.

IMO the key element that needs fixing in PS2 air-combat is the fact that certain weapons and certs are far too versatile and useful, and eclipse everything else (rocket pods, rotaries, flares).

What we need are more specialised options that force people to adopt certain roles and make them strong against particular targets - while being weak to others. We also need the default loadouts to be stronger, so that other options are genuinely sidegrades not upgrades.

My suggestions:

Split rocket pods into AI and AV varients. Make them weak against other ground targets. Make them utterly useless against air.
Remove afterburners completely unless fuel tanks are fitted.
Make nose-guns more specialised - defaults should be primarily AV, secondarily AA. Rotaries primarily AA, secondarily AV. PPA, etc. primarily AI, secondarily AV.
Make Dalton terrible against infantry. Make Zepher terrible against armour. Make Shredder ok against both. Prevent belly gun from firing when Lib isn't flying level (no more belly guns as AA).
Fix A2A missiles so they actually work reliably and are useful. I don't care if some pilots don't like lock-ons. Tough.
Make flares a secondary weapon. Give them ammo instead of a cool-down. Keep their cert cost about the same (i.e. cheap).
Highlight incoming missiles on radar and in HUD. Add warning sound that gets louder/more frequent as they close in.
Buff Lib tail-gun AA. Make it able to shoot down incoming missiles with some skill and team-work.

Dougnifico · 2013-05-10, 04:18 AM

Non-VTOL interceptor needed!

Overall, I think A2A should get a good buff. If it reaches a certain point, then G2A defenses can be buffed. I think A2A should be the principal way of killing aircraft. Its so much more fun than flak batteries and SAM missiles.

Obstruction · 2013-05-10, 09:39 AM

What we need are more specialised options that force people to adopt certain roles and make them strong against particular targets - while being weak to others. We also need the default loadouts to be stronger, so that other options are genuinely sidegrades not upgrades.

what you're actually saying here is nerf ESFs so that people

1. only dogfight at the flight ceiling or snipe off liberators

OR

2. get blown up by EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME

you really don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

besides i heard in the next update they're just going to replace all MBT and liberator weapons with rumble seats for burster maxes.

Gatekeeper · 2013-05-10, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Obstruction

what you're actually saying here is nerf ESFs so that people

1. only dogfight at the flight ceiling or snipe off liberators

OR

2. get blown up by EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME

you really don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

besides i heard in the next update they're just going to replace all MBT and liberator weapons with rumble seats for burster maxes.

Yeah, I don't think that it what I was saying. What I was saying is that I'd like "ground-attack ESF" to be one specific role and "air-superiority ESF" to be another. And for ESFs within those roles to have some variety.

As opposed to the current situation where almost all ESFs seem to run with a rotary, rocket pods and flares - and are thus strong against air, infantry and ground vehicles and all the bloody same.

I appreciate that forcing ESFs to specialise would limit their power somewhat, and I'd be happy to see G2A nerfed a bit to compensate (especially Bursters). IMO the reason why AA has been constantly buffed and buffed again over the last 6 months is because rocket pods are so freaking overpowered and omnipresent and everyone hates being farmed by them.

So let's nerf them, make other strategies viable, and tone down the AA to match - everyone's a winner!

Obstruction · 2013-05-10, 10:07 AM

people won't play nerfed shit is what i'm saying. you think it will play out your way but you aren't cynical enough for game design.

phungus · 2013-05-10, 01:08 PM

So many people who don't fly ESFs commenting on this thread and giving advice.... Also alot of stupid/hard headed people demanding a complety redesigned "fixed wing" flight model that is never going to happen... This forum is just as bad as the Sony ones if this thread is any indication.

As someone who actually flys an ESF, alot there isn't much I can come up with that the devs can't on their own. However here are the main relevant issues for A2A fighting:

Issue 1: No 3d radar/minimap

This is the primary reason air to air sucks, aircraft are stuck with 2d radar designed for infantry combat. If ESFs are to focus more on aircraft and less on ground targets then they need a minimap/radar that actually encourages this behavior instead of discouraging it. Also the radar utility itself is only good at finding infantry, it is useless air to air.

Issue 2: AA MAXes instantly establish air supremecy anywhere they spawn

If ESFs are to have an air supremecy role then air to air ESFs need to have an actual purpose. Right now with AA MAXes working how they do this just isn't a practical. It's always better to grab AA MAXes in an area to clear the air and establish air supremecy.

Issue 3: Mosquito speed

OK, Mosquito speed isn't bad itself, it provides flavor for the factions and I still think the sythe is better. However giving all factions the ability to utilize a high speed interceptor unit will help alot in evening out the airgame and allow for players in all factions to be aircraft hunters. I would really like to see a high speed intercepter, with say a 275 kph base speed - such a craft would need to not have a secondary and be stuck with a nose gun.

Issue 4: Southern Indar's flight ceiling

You can't fly on southern indar without taking flak damage from what seems like omniprecent sources. I need the ability to get above ground flak!

Issue 5: lack of A2A options, and A2Am are broken as is

There are plenty of sources to find good ideas for A2A weapons, but yes having another option then a broken fire and forget lock on would be nice. Personally I just want a high velocity heavy hitting dumbfire rocket.

Issue 6: A2A combat doesn't properly credit kills.

Seriously whoever the fuck dev that still thinks it's a good idea to give everyone a single button instant "kill deny" and "XP deny" button is a moron and shouldn't be designing a game, period. Humans are emotional creatures driven by emotions, if A2A combat is going to more often then not result in frustration instead of satisfaction from an emotional standpoint - even when a battle is won - then people aren't going to fly Air to Air very often. Just fucking fixing kill credits for bailers and intentional crashers would do alot to encourage ESF pilots to focus more on air combat. This is just goddamn common sense...

Issue 7: Flares are mandatory

Why even have a utility slot? Except for very experienced TR pilots with over 200 hours who can use radar, everyone else must use flares. No other utility is viable for anyone except highly experienced TR pilots who don't have to deal with strikers, and even then the one other utility "radar" you see some mossys utilize is purely for infantry farming...

SolLeks · 2013-05-10, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

Yeah, I don't think that it what I was saying. What I was saying is that I'd like "ground-attack ESF" to be one specific role and "air-superiority ESF" to be another. And for ESFs within those roles to have some variety.

As opposed to the current situation where almost all ESFs seem to run with a rotary, rocket pods and flares - and are thus strong against air, infantry and ground vehicles and all the bloody same.

I appreciate that forcing ESFs to specialise would limit their power somewhat, and I'd be happy to see G2A nerfed a bit to compensate (especially Bursters). IMO the reason why AA has been constantly buffed and buffed again over the last 6 months is because rocket pods are so freaking overpowered and omnipresent and everyone hates being farmed by them.

So let's nerf them, make other strategies viable, and tone down the AA to match - everyone's a winner!

Wile I like the over all ideas in your thread, I still think all aircraft should be able to defend themselves from other aircraft.

What you are suggesting sounds like if we made HAs only able to take a SMG if they have a rocket launcher, and if they want a LMG, then they would have to take a non AV / AA weapon. (tba I kinda like this idea to cut down on how much AV /AA infantry can have, and hell ya Jackhammer + EM6 loadout).

Kail · 2013-05-10, 05:19 PM

Not strictly new ESF weapons, I was thinking today that it would also be cool to have ES abilities for the ESFs.

TR - Lateral Scramjets
Causes the Mosquito to immediately barrel-role to the left or right (based on the lateral direction the aircraft is moving); distance should be two to four mosquito-width's or so, enough to safely evade.

VS - Phase Displacer
Teleports the Scythe forward. Distance should be two to four Scythe-lengths or so, enough to safely evade.

NC - Shield
Basically the Vanguard shield, with timing / cooldown tweaked to suit ESF combat. Sorry NC, I didn't have any bright ideas that could compete with shielding.

The goal with each is to provide a different kind of air defense. Might be interesting if Flares were removed and their effect added to each ESF ability (ie, activating any of those three breaks lockons, and prevents lockons while active - in this case NC get the stronger ability against lockons since roll & teleport are only "active" for a second or two)

Corewin · 2013-05-11, 06:33 AM

ESF vs ESF Combat IS FINE. We are looking for things that ADD to this element, not cheap BS that caters to bad pilots with bad aim. Take it from someone who is considerably skilled at flying in this game, dogfights are bar none the most rewarding aspect it has going for it. Lets not screw that up.

Weapons
Guns
Rotaries are fine. They fill the close in high dps roll well.
The default guns fill a niche of there own. Decent damage, with accuracy at range.
Ground based primaries are still a bit borked, but at least they are making some headway on re imagining them.

Secondaries
As some have mentioned before. A2AM needs to be reticule based. Missile tracking should be lost when an aircraft has left a designated "lock" circle on the hud. A mixture between the NC Max's Raven and AV Mana turret. Damage would need to be reduced significantly. (Or widen turn radius) Ammo reserves could be readjusted to compensate. (The only way I would condone a buff of the current A2AM, would be if Flares are completely revamped to be Ammo based.)

Rocket Pods could possibly be turned into A2GM pods. Requiring a lock and keeping enemy vehicles in a circle similar to the A2AM suggestion. Would certainly cut back on spam, and keep them focused on vehicles rather than Infantry.

Arguably, just that one change from rocket pods to A2GM ala Hellfire/TOW. You make create a need for a specific target to be picked out and "engaged" rather than "spammed". Making reload speeds on this rather lengthy would also help. (This is honestly just an excuse to keep infantry out of the crosshairs of pods, but a more or less workable one)

Real changes that need to be discussed.

I want to hear suggestions on what a Galaxy could be fitted out to do, that would make it a high value target to seek out, rather than avoid because you'd just be wasting ammo on it. Maybe an AWACs Gal. Or the ability to move vehicles at the expense of the 11 passenger seats.

OR

Raising the flight ceiling by 1000M. (2000M in total)
Adding clouds.
Moving all control points tied to Aviation resources up to 1300M.
Control of them is determined by Air superiority. (More friendly aircraft within a 500M radius)

TL

R
Air needs a rethink in the objectives department. Not the application. (for the most part)

Ohaunlaim · 2013-05-12, 07:23 AM

As for the Galaxy I think a number of options might be interesting to have.

1. Long range air radar that also lowers lock-on times against aircraft by up to 0.5 seconds for friendly units.

2. Medium range ground radar (vehicle only) that also lowers lock-on times against aircraft by up to 0.5 seconds for friendly units.

3. Squad spawn generator allowing squad members to spawn into the galaxy in-flight or landed, with a very high spawn timer.

4. Air and ground re-arm system for use in-flight or landed (comparably larger range than sunderer version for the aircraft re-arming).

5. Vehicle transport ability based on size/weight/other. (for example... up to 1 Sunderer, 1 MBT, 2 Lightnings, 3 Harassers, or 6 Quads)

6. Just-under-medium-range, low-power, jamming generator to mess up enemy mini-maps (only?) for a short duration. (Aiding in hotdrops.)

7. Galaxy booster pods for quick getaways or insertions.

Shamrock · 2013-05-12, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by CraazyCanuck

I think a few things need to happen before any further improvements to the air game can be had. Here’s what I had in mind.

Increased ceiling threshold. Switch Skyguard and Max burster. Make the skyguard's the true ground A2A threat while decreasing the range of the Max. Next they need to get rid of duality weapons platforms and allow focused combat for ESF. Get rid of Hovering ESF & Liberators, increase overall airspeed and introduce stalling. Allow only Gals the ability to hover, and its ability to do so is only a short period of time to execute accurate hot drops.

Change flares to munitions based platform with a magazine and reload time. It can be certed for improved capacity and reload time. Show incoming missiles on radar within a radius around your aircraft.

ESF A2G - rocketpods are gone and instead an A2G focused esf has two options for secondary.
1) Napalm/Plasma (call it what you will) (AI) - narrow area effect carpet, good damage against infantry and very weak damage vs armor/turrets. It has dot effect providing an area of denial. Small carry capacity. Certs can be used to improve area of effect and perhaps the length of the dot.
2) A2G AV lock on missiles. Short lock on, Fire and Forget missile. Limited capacity similar to the napalm. Excellent damage versus ground armor/turrets. Little damage against surrounding infantry caught in the explosion.

ESF A2A – 3 options
1) Dumbfire – equivalent to lolpods as they are now but focused dmg vs other aircraft. Improved velocity and dmg, but smaller carry capacity. Flares have no effect.
2) Medium Range A2A – lock on as they are right now without the 50% failure chance and improved velocity.
3) Long Range lock on – slower then medium range (equivalent to what the medium velocity is right now), takes longer to lock, smaller carry capacity but heavy hitter. ESF can avoid if aware enough. Meant as a liberator/gal hunter.

Nose Gun - 3 Options (these weapons will be very effective for their chosen target, and weak against all others) – AV (Tank Buster), AI (kobalt equivalent), AA (rotary/hailstorm)

Liberator – get rid of the Dalton and Zephyr. How and the hell does the aircraft even flying properly with those big heavy guns rotating around on that belly? Nose gun option is strictly AA or AV. Keeps the Tank buster but also has the option for a Rotary/Hailstorm equivalent.
Belly gunner is changed to Bombadier with various payload possibilities to allow them to focus on a particular target. Could allow a limited carry capacity for various types of bombs AI/AV/specials to be certed and carried to improve its versatility.

Specials can be various things - Napalm, AV bombs, Nanite Bombs to drop on friend armor with a large AE repair over time and its infantry equivalent. Larger versions of infantry flashbangs that work on infantry and vehicles/turrets, or improved smokescreens or their equivalent to hide friendly movements. Acid bombs that provide area denial in a larger area that effects infantry and armor both. A2A turret/mines that deploy and hover in place for a set duration.

Tail Gunner – Improved angle and rotation depending of the turret weapon chosen but. Turret Options
1) Burster AA gun
2) Medium or long range Missiles
3) Bulldog

Edit: dang lost a good chunk of my post.

Some nice ideas here, +1 from me too

phungus · 2013-05-12, 01:47 PM

Nice to see actual ESF pilots posting now.

I'm surprised no one has commented on the two primary issues I adressed with my above post:
1) No 3D minimap/radar - the tactical information given to ESFs is designed for infantry combat, this is the primary reason ESFs find themselves focusing on ground targets. Give ESFs a functioning 3d radar and A2A would be far more viable.
2) Game mechanics deny kills to A2A ESFs more often then any other class/vehicle - this highly discourages A2A gameplay as every player who decides to go A2A with their ESF often find themselves being punished with frustration rather then rewarded when they actually win an air battle.

I know neat new flashy weapons are what people want and focus on, however these are not the primary causes of ESFs mainly focusing on ground instead of air targets. If players who choose to focus on air targets with ESFs were actually properly credited with kills and given their pavlovian reward instead of getting punished for going A2A then A2A would be much more viable. Also a proper 3d radar is imperative, especially for new pilots (spare me the "l2p" argument, we are talking about how to improve the game and get ESFs to focus more on A2A combat, not trying to puff our chests out and talking about how awesome we are that we can use inferior and inefective tools to still get the job done).

Those are the two main reasons A2A isn't as enjoyable as A2G, surprised no one has even acknowledged either issue...

Whiteagle · 2013-05-12, 06:37 PM

I have to ask phungus, how are you expecting them to do a 3-d mini-map?

From what I remember from Second Life, those kinds of displays are a lot more resource intensive then then the X-Y-Rotation over a map picture we have now.

Gatekeeper · 2013-05-13, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by SolLeks

Wile I like the over all ideas in your thread, I still think all aircraft should be able to defend themselves from other aircraft.

What you are suggesting sounds like if we made HAs only able to take a SMG if they have a rocket launcher, and if they want a LMG, then they would have to take a non AV / AA weapon. (tba I kinda like this idea to cut down on how much AV /AA infantry can have, and hell ya Jackhammer + EM6 loadout).

I'm not saying a ground-attack ESF should be incapable of defending itself against an air-superiority ESF, just that it should be at a disadvantage. A good pilot with an anti-ground setup might still win against an inexperienced interceptor - but by choosing to be strong against ground targets, he makes it harder for himself to win against air.

I guess the way to think about it is more like choosing what class of infantry you want to play, or what range category you want to be strong in. Is it better to take a shotgun or SMG, or a sniper-rifle or LMG? Whatever you do, you always make yourself weak to something else. The trouble with rocket pods currently is you're not making any trade-off - A2A missiles are crappy and buggy, and there's nothing to stop a ground-attack fighter just taking flares to negate them anyway.

Originally Posted by Ohaunlaim

As for the Galaxy I think a number of options might be interesting to have.

1. Long range air radar that also lowers lock-on times against aircraft by up to 0.5 seconds for friendly units.

2. Medium range ground radar (vehicle only) that also lowers lock-on times against aircraft by up to 0.5 seconds for friendly units.

3. Squad spawn generator allowing squad members to spawn into the galaxy in-flight or landed, with a very high spawn timer.

4. Air and ground re-arm system for use in-flight or landed (comparably larger range than sunderer version for the aircraft re-arming).

5. Vehicle transport ability based on size/weight/other. (for example... up to 1 Sunderer, 1 MBT, 2 Lightnings, 3 Harassers, or 6 Quads)

6. Just-under-medium-range, low-power, jamming generator to mess up enemy mini-maps (only?) for a short duration. (Aiding in hotdrops.)

7. Galaxy booster pods for quick getaways or insertions.

I like the idea of some more options for Gals outside of different guns - it would be nice to give them a proper role on the battlefield. The idea of long-range radar is good - making the Gal a genuine strategic target that the enemy really needs to take down. To cement this aspect, make long-range radar Gals show up on enemy radar at the same distance - so they know they need to come and kill it!

My idea for a Gal upgrade is to let it function as an AMS again - but to only allow it to 'deploy' while hovering at a certain height above the ground - with troops who spawn there hot-dropping from it straight onto the battlefield below.

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

I have to ask phungus, how are you expecting them to do a 3-d mini-map?

From what I remember from Second Life, those kinds of displays are a lot more resource intensive then then the X-Y-Rotation over a map picture we have now.

The best idea I can come up with for a simple semi-3d radar upgrade is to make the mini-map work more like GTA, where the blips themselves point up or down to show you whether they're above you or below you. Not sure how we'd marry that to the current indicators that show the direction the enemy is facing though. Could have it as an option to toggle between the modes maybe?