MAX Balnace Part 4: Everything AI - Page 3

bpostal · 2013-07-07, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by Wahooo

I call bullshit. VR doesn't count.

I've played YEARS of TR max with lock down. It is very situational and the downside to the mobility can be out right rage inducing if you are caught at the wrong time.

Keep in mind, we don't have towers like we used to. Ahh...those were the days.

TheAadvark · 2013-07-07, 07:46 AM

Picture this , your a TR MAX you find a nice spot. The enemy push will begin soon. You have some squad engineers and your locked down.

NC maxes come into view they pop their shields their engis's hide behind them, light assaults come from above in every direction , grenades, rocket launchers, C4 etc. before you know it all your engineers are dead, your at half life and you need to move 2 feet to the left to somehow make an escape , then you have to undeploy by the time the animation is done your dead.

The problem with lockdown is that we need an entire squad or more watching our backs, repairing us, and even healing our engi's. It takes such a coordinated effort to keep our maxes up, while yours doesn't (VS and NC) not to the same degree anyway.

The one place THE ONE PLACE our lock down kicks ass is just inside the landing pads on bio labs. Every one is funneled to us and we don't need to worry about our backs and light assaults are all outside.

Not saying anything about the NC max or the VS max , but stop saying lockdown is so great, it is absolutely fucking not.

War Barney · 2013-07-07, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by TheAadvark

Picture this , your a TR MAX you find a nice spot. The enemy push will begin soon. You have some squad engineers and your locked down.

NC maxes come into view they pop their shields their engis's hide behind them, light assaults come from above in every direction , grenades, rocket launchers, C4 etc. before you know it all your engineers are dead, your at half life and you need to move 2 feet to the left to somehow make an escape , then you have to undeploy by the time the animation is done your dead.

The problem with lockdown is that we need an entire squad or more watching our backs, repairing us, and even healing our engi's. It takes such a coordinated effort to keep our maxes up, while yours doesn't (VS and NC) not to the same degree anyway.

The one place THE ONE PLACE our lock down kicks ass is just inside the landing pads on bio labs. Every one is funneled to us and we don't need to worry about our backs and light assaults are all outside.

Not saying anything about the NC max or the VS max , but stop saying lockdown is so great, it is absolutely fucking not.

Picture this, the light assaults die very quickly to the lockdowned MAX when they come out of cover, the shields go down pretty quickly with rockets to the fact and the MAX is moving slow as hell while putting down no fire themself anyway. The attack falters as your main pusher isn't doing any damage just trying to soak it up and the only way the shield helps is if you hide behind it so you can't shoot either.

MrMak · 2013-07-07, 11:19 AM

Ficture this. At lcose range a MAX with a grindor or a scatergun with extended mags will still kill the lockdown max faster. Especialy that at those ranges the shield will easily survive long enaugh and even the charge wil lbe nenught to get behind you. At ranges where lockdown gives an advantage the NC heavies love you for standing still and eating rockets.

Lockdown is a great tool againstsquishies, but by itself it is more of a vunerability than an advantage.

Buts lets just ignore facts and keep repeating your flawed preception of reality till it becomes true.

I mean after the magrider got hit with the nerf bat the Vanu kept repeating that they are the weakest and ugliest faction untill they made it come true.

Rumblepit · 2013-07-07, 11:45 AM

im sorry but having a player sit in vr shooting targets and doing math wont get you the results needed to provide balance in game. the in game data shows tr maxes are lacking, this is what the devs said, not some player in the VR,no offence chewy.extract the numbers from the API and you will see TR pull more maxes, they get less kills per max than any other faction,and they dont live as long as other maxes... this is why they need a buff. chewy dose one of these threads every time there is talk of a max nerf/buff.
and every time we see the same results......... NC maxes need to be buffed.

im sure many nc and vs max fan boys will say all of tr just need to l2p, these people are stupid and they have a agenda.

let the devs balance the game, the have detailed data that gives them insight to do so.

bpostal · 2013-07-07, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by War Barney

Picture this, the light assaults die very quickly to the lockdowned MAX when they come out of cover, the shields go down pretty quickly with rockets to the fact and the MAX is moving slow as hell while putting down no fire themself anyway. The attack falters as your main pusher isn't doing any damage just trying to soak it up and the only way the shield helps is if you hide behind it so you can't shoot either.

You don't fight against the NC a lot do you? Especially in Biolabs.

Chewy · 2013-07-07, 05:14 PM

(I shouldn't have waited so long to get back to this)

Originally Posted by MrMak

Those diferences are less than a second at close ranges except for the grinder.

Should also be noted that Scattercannons and Mattocks with extended mags would probalby have similar TTK to the grinder while the VS and TR guns would brarely benefit that much since their reloads are faster andm from what ive seenm they usualy use one mag anyway.

Also seems peculiar the Mattock without slugs actualy outpreforms everything except the Blueshift at 15 meters by a good margin.

They could use some minor tweaking to do a little extra damage agaisnt maxes but apart from that they are far from useless especialy in their neiche.

1- No cert option should be forced on one and one only faction to have a balance. Extended mags are a forced 1,000 certs on any NC MAX that without them the MAXes are of very little use compared to other factions MAXes that don't have to spend a single cert. Outside of getting the weapons NC MAXes have a mandatory 1,000+ certs before they can be used in the role they are made for. TR and VS MAXes have no such limits.

2- Slugs make Mattocks worse for 0m-20m for MAX v MAX and Mattocks share the smallest COF with Scattercannons. So it is safe to assume that slug numbers will be the same for each.

Mattock TTKs with shot and slug.
Order Shot, slug
0m- 6.3--7.13
10m- 6.32--7.13
20m- 7.72--12.26
30m- 13.26--12.93

Originally Posted by maradine

I'm having difficulty understanding how NC max weaponry is so allegedly underpowered and yet the same weaponry is the primary statistical killer on the ground. You don't get to start a post with "DAMN YOUR STATISTICS I DECLARE THEM INVALID" with much hope of not raising a few eyebrows. This incongruity needs to be explained before I take any of this seriously.

Post those stats you speak of and they best not be from PS2-stats.com. That site makes it impossible to get current data. Back at launch when NC MAXes earned their hate no one had C4, armor, or anything the needs certs to counter MAXes. Then we have the fact that everyone was an idiot at launch and never bothered to learn how to attack the way PS2 requires.

Originally Posted by MrMak

I love how you keep exagerating everything out of propeortions. Especialy how that 15% (At Max Rank) fire rate boost for bursters makes the lockdown MAX "absolutely terrifying". All while completly dismissing any weeknesses the enemy may have. Its realy classic forumside when you think about it.

And a proper test is not ZOE and Lockdown vs Slugs. Its ZOE vs Lockdown vs Aegis and then slugs having the same tests done as all the other guns along with all the guns being tested with extended mags.

NC maxes dont need "fixing" becouse they are not "broken". The only thing that they might need is slight tweaking against other MAXes and a fire rate buff to the hacksaw. And even THAT needs more extensive testing than just shooting buckshot at up to 20 meters.

Edit: Did some quick testing.

Slugs bring the TTK down to about 10 seconds at 20 meters for the Mattock and 11ish for the Scattergun.

Also Extended mags bring point blank TTK for both the Scattergun and Mattock to the same level as the grinder. The reson the Grindar has such a big difference is that it has 2 extra shots which enable it to kill an enemy MAX without relaoding. Extended mags give the same aility to the Scattercangun Mattock and even Hacksaw boostign their point blank TTK to the point where the other MAXes cant even compete.

Just to do these stock v stock tests took 96 of them. 3 MAXes, 4 weapons, 2 targets, and 4 ranges. 3*4*2*4=96. To account for cert options would make that number grow to the hundreds and thousands FAST. Just to account for abilities would mean you would have to add 2 more MAXes (3 stock, 1 ZOE, and 1 lockdown) and adds 1 more target for just NC, 2 for just TR, and just 1 for VS.

Ignoring the new targets and you have 5*4*2*4=160 tests. To add the new targets from abilities changing a MAXes stats I think would look like so. NC needs 1*4*3*4=48 tests. TR needs 1*4*4*4=64 tests. VS needs the same as NC, so 48. That (I think) brings the number of tests to 320. Oh wait, I forgot about the how lockdown and ZOE goes for infantry! That brings up the test number to around 352. Remove the old 96 tests as they are done and you have 256.

256 new tests to record, edit, and upload. That is a full time jobs worth of work just for 3 abilities and only doing it for level 5 and not 1-4. Then you have armors to account for and use of support players or smart use of cover! Is the point getting across here? Or do I need more details?

Also see my points on slugs above.

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

im sorry but having a player sit in vr shooting targets and doing math wont get you the results needed to provide balance in game. the in game data shows tr maxes are lacking, this is what the devs said, not some player in the VR,no offence chewy.extract the numbers from the API and you will see TR pull more maxes, they get less kills per max than any other faction,and they dont live as long as other maxes... this is why they need a buff. chewy dose one of these threads every time there is talk of a max nerf/buff.
and every time we see the same results......... NC maxes need to be buffed.

im sure many nc and vs max fan boys will say all of tr just need to l2p, these people are stupid and they have a agenda.

let the devs balance the game, the have detailed data that gives them insight to do so.

If I knew how to do that I would. I have ask MANY times how to do that and no one has told me how OR have bothered to post the stats themselves that I can recall. Other than Cupboy that is and we lost his work thanks to asshats.

If you think this is so easy THEN DO IT! Either tell me how to pull the data or do it yourself. Till then you have brought nothing but personal opinions. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has at least one and most times they smell the same.

Assist · 2013-07-07, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Wahooo

But I AM saying you were one who was saying the NC maxes weren't OP when they were for months after release till the shotgun nerf... same nerf that hit the mercys BTW which hit the pocket of a lot of TR BTW.

Right now the TTK differences in situations MAX on MAX encounters happen is pretty damn close, back to the balance the game has in most situations. Whoever shoots first gets the kill.

Indeed.

I appreciate him taking the time to do all the tests, but just as before when he was defending the hell out of the hacksaws, I'll take his conclusions with a grain of salt. We all play against the NC MAX and we know how well it does. I'll take my own personal expeirence of 34 days and factor that into how 'bad' the NC MAX is, needless to say I don't see that as even a remotely pressing issue.

Chewy · 2013-07-07, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Assist

Indeed.

I appreciate him taking the time to do all the tests, but just as before when he was defending the hell out of the hacksaws, I'll take his conclusions with a grain of salt. We all play against the NC MAX and we know how well it does. I'll take my own personal expeirence of 34 days and factor that into how 'bad' the NC MAX is, needless to say I don't see that as even a remotely pressing issue.

You say that as an infantry and vehicle player, not a MAX player.

MAXes should be better than infantry, same can be said for vehicles as they have costs far outside of infantry. But when it comes to MAX fights even back at launch NC MAXes didn't have a chance at the ranges TR and VS MAXes can sit without worry. I defended NC MAXes back then because they have SHOTGUNS and shotgun need to be shotguns. If a shotgun can't do shit at CQC (like it is now without fully certed weapons) then there's no chance at any other range.

Im a support and MAX player. MAX is my 3rd most played class at 64 hours including vehicles. You may have 15 hours in a MAX on your main account but you have done nothing with that class. MAX v infantry isn't the big problem it is one but not the main, MAX v MAX is. And if NC MAXes can't handle TR and VS MAXes then what chance does our infantry have against them?

War Barney · 2013-07-07, 06:33 PM

You see chewy, its people like them which make me think humanity is going to destroy itself. You give them maths, actual maths aquired from lots of testing and they say *well I'm going to take that with a grain of salt*

It just makes me smash my head on the table and scream WHAT!! this is maths! you can't take maths with a grain of salt its sodding maths!. You can take him just saying *I think NC MAX are underpowered* with no tests with a grain of salt but lots of testing with the maths you CANT TAKE WITH A GRAIN OF SALT ARE YOU INSANE.

These people are just impossible to reason with, I honestly don't know if they are retarded or just are terrified of the NC MAX being fixed. I'm hoping its the terrified one cos if its the retarded one then it scares me that people so dumb are allowed to own a pc let alone use one unsupervised.

You are best off sending your results directly to SOE cos letting this community look at them is about as helpful as showing the results to your pet dog, hell the dog would probably make more sensible remarks than some of these people are.

Yes I am a bit angry tonight after some more idiots in-game being insanely stupid as usual but my points still stand. You CANNOT try to say chewy is wrong until you do your own maths. If you want to do that well I played a VS MAX and killed about 20 people before I died so your MAX is OP! I don't need maths I have experience, same for TR MAX I played that and killed a TON of people before I died so its OP! again I don't need no maths I have the power of personal experience with no proof at all! As for NC MAX its hard to get even 1 kill! PERSONAL EXPERIENCE POWER ACTIVATE! as such what I say is true despite no evidence!.

Wow that IS fun! did you also know I have personal experience of using all Vs guns to kill everybody from 10k range in 1 shot so they all need a nerf, same for TR, but NC guns do 1 damage a hit from my personal experience so they all need a boost. BY THE POWER OF PERSONAL EXPERIENCE I AM CORRECT!! no proof needed I said its personal experience so I'm right!.

Yes I went a bit insane there but thats about as insane as you idiots are being by trying to say *well ye you did a load of testing and did the maths but I'm going to deny it anyway and say its the opposite based on no evidence of any proof at all except saying it*. So seriously shut the hell up and go do the maths or just shut the hell up.

OCNSethy · 2013-07-07, 07:02 PM

Just my 2 cents worth...

Thank you Chewy for actually sitting down and going through the moves and collating the data. For me as TR, its given me some useful insight into the weapons I use on my Max and the effective distances I can use them.

As for the rest of the debate, people will use the data or not... I have no feelings either way.

bpostal · 2013-07-07, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by War Barney

...this is maths! you can't take maths with a grain of salt its sodding maths!...

We're not dismissing the "maths" out of hand. The point that some of us are trying to make, and that Chewy (If I'm reading his post correctly) has also pointed out is that there is a metric fuckton (10^10) of testing and variables that needs to be done before you can look at straight numbers.

Just to do these stock v stock tests took 96 of them. 3 MAXes, 4 weapons, 2 targets, and 4 ranges. 3*4*2*4=96. To account for cert options would make that number grow to the hundreds and thousands FAST. Just to account for abilities would mean you would have to add 2 more MAXes (3 stock, 1 ZOE, and 1 lockdown) and adds 1 more target for just NC, 2 for just TR, and just 1 for VS.

Ignoring the new targets and you have 5*4*2*4=160 tests. To add the new targets from abilities changing a MAXes stats I think would look like so. NC needs 1*4*3*4=48 tests. TR needs 1*4*4*4=64 tests. VS needs the same as NC, so 48. That (I think) brings the number of tests to 320. Oh wait, I forgot about the how lockdown and ZOE goes for infantry! That brings up the test number to around 352. Remove the old 96 tests as they are done and you have 256.

256 new tests to record, edit, and upload. That is a full time jobs worth of work just for 3 abilities and only doing it for level 5 and not 1-4. Then you have armors to account for and use of support players or smart use of cover! Is the point getting across here? Or do I need more details?

That looks like a whole hell of a lot of variables. Variables that need to be accounted for before you can take anything without that grain of salt you were talking about War Barney.
But while we're on personal insults, I can almost bet that you're so stupid that you look at a sample survey and say 'Yep, this is what everyone believes. +/- 5%'.

TLDR: Chill out, as I said before balance is always ongoing. SOE has more 'maths' and data at their fingertips than any of us. That is the data they use to balance the game. You're not coming off as enlightened War Barney, you're coming off as a loudmouth, overbearing zealot.
I'm not saying Chewy's wrong. He's put more work into this than I ever could. But there's much more work and 'maths' that need to be done before you can call this data definitive.

Chewy · 2013-07-07, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by bpostal

That looks like a whole hell of a lot of variables. Variables that need to be accounted for before you can take anything without that grain of salt you were talking about War Barney.

I'm not saying Chewy's wrong. He's put more work into this than I ever could. But there's much more work and 'maths' that need to be done before you can call this data definitive.

I'll agree that with that. Without everything there is nothing but questions.

My point of view is that if stock is off then how can things be right after options? All 3 factions share everything MAX but ES abilities and weapon type. ES abilities are debatable till the end of time, that's what make them an option and a real choice. But weapons types are something else.

The point of a shotgun is to make point blank kills easier at the cost of range. And the point of a HMG is to be able to spew lead at will and cover as much area as possible. There should be no balance between them in their given roles. Shotguns should rule in CQC and HMGs everywhere else. That's why those weapons are made and the meaning to their existence. That is not so now. It was like that at launch but not anymore.

Fact is if you balance shotguns to HMGs in CQC then you kill the meaning of shotguns. I HATE shotguns! They are a weapon type that feels like a monster in their role but can't be used outside of that role. I need to be versatile or my MAX can't protect my troops and I think of them as crocodiles. A thing looks scary as fuck and something you do not fuck with in the water! Drag them out of their element, make them waste energy, or risk being bit. Once that lizard is on land then the only worry is the one shot if you get close to the mouth or a lucky tail hit.

That is why I hate shotguns. They do one thing well and only that one thing. If you fail the fast kill then you have but one chance to use a backup or it is death. Fail that and you're in some guys boat off to be skinned for boots and luggage.

Wahooo · 2013-07-07, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by War Barney

*Angry Tears*

I think you need to take a break from forumside for a while kid.

LoliLoveFart · 2013-07-07, 09:22 PM

Well this thread went about how I expected.
My PERSONAL opinion is that Shotguns on Maxes should be NS, they are just too hard to balance against HMGs, they will either be instant death (game launch) or a little worse but still damn powerful in cqc like they are now. Give the NC some HMGs and put the shotguns as NS, sure there will be tears (when isn't there) as the NC adjust.