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Old 2013-10-31, 11:47 PM   [Ignore Me] #16
BlaxicanX
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Re: Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser


You shouldn't be able to C4 a harrasser anyway. That's like complaining about not being able to C4 an ESF.
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Old 2013-11-01, 12:21 AM   [Ignore Me] #17
OCNSethy
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Re: Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser


Originally Posted by Mordelicius View Post

Nanoweave and Snipers


- I'll wait for the actual post, but these Snipers complaining about nanoweave want low risk/high reward situations. Snipers are already kill-streakers. The current system is fine. All these guys do is deploy spam until they get to a high cliff, high mountain, high building, top of tower, top of antenna, top of tree, then snipe with impunity with very low risk and high rewards. And they still want some more?
Please dont bunch us all in the same basket there Mordelicius

Some of us work very hard to get to that great spot. Personally, I cant be arsed deploy spamming, waste of good shoot'in time, really.

Having said that, I agree with you regarding nanoweave. Its fine as is.

I will be interested in what they are proposing also.
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Old 2013-11-01, 07:16 AM   [Ignore Me] #18
Dodgy Commando
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Re: Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser


You don't have to necessarily plant C4 on a target for it to be effective...

That being said, I was not aware mines did not detonate fast enough to destroy Harassers. Possible lag/sync issue?

Glad they are looking into balancing the Harasser weapons to fit its playstyle without allowing it to encroach on other ranges. A sound approach that doesn't require too much new work it would seem.
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Old 2013-11-01, 11:28 AM   [Ignore Me] #19
VikingKong
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Re: Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser


Originally Posted by BlaxicanX View Post
You shouldn't be able to C4 a harrasser anyway. That's like complaining about not being able to C4 an ESF.
Which is precisely why people brought it up. A buff to something that's nigh on impossible is not a buff.


I still say mid-fight repairs for a supposedly "hit-and-run style" vehicle makes no sense. Where's the running come into it? They have less reason to run than any other vehicle.
Still, at least they're doing something.
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Old 2013-11-01, 01:18 PM   [Ignore Me] #20
Badjuju
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Re: Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser


Originally Posted by Mordelicius View Post
Alot of these proposed Harasser changes make no sense. It proves the Devs are out of touch with the actual live gameplay.

- Harassers do not get damaged by Mines (they are too fast). By the time the mine explodes, they are already away from the damage radius. How many AV mines have I wasted on these things defending a Sundy/Pathways etc. Too much. They are not effective at all.

- C4 on Harassers. If PS2 has a Shingeki no Kyojin movement system, this would be useful, but only fools would allow their Harassers to get C4ed. They move too fast, by the time you switched to C4, they are already far away. They can go at full speed at all times, why go slow? The reason why LAs easily C4 tanks and Sundy is because they are normally stationary targets.



Harassers need a real nerf


- Make vehicle repair optional on defense slot (armor or repair-on-the-go. pick your sidegrade, not both)

- Armor need to be significantly reduced. It's a BUGGY not a tank. A buggy. That's why it has speed. It has damage avoidance vs. direct damage mitigation. Imagine if my beloved Flash has this much armor. You know how long a Flash can take down a tank even from a backside using Basilisk? Stop trying to turn a buggy into a tank upgrade. Their speed and change-of-direction at will is more than enough. They are hard to hit because it's difficult to predict which direction it will go (couple that with their speed) and you have a hack-mode vehicle.

- They need to be damaged upon vehicle or infantry collision.

- Marauders H need a nerf too. It's a C4 projectile. They have to significantly reduce ammo and damage/radius. Compare it to Anti-infantry Bulldog. This thing is ridiculous.

- I hear Harassers have no modified directional damage. They need be more vulnerable at the sides and back just like tanks.

- Make them more vulnerable to flipping. My scout Flash is hard to drive. These Harassers fly all over the place and not even flip.

- Vulcan H needs a real nerf. It's an powerfully upgraded Basilisk. It's good against vehicles, infantry, and aircraft. Think Basilisk sidegrade not upgrade. If it's good a AV, it has to tickle us infantry not kill us in a millisecond. Aircraft damage has to be reduced too.

- Damage must be significantly reduced especially at range. They can hit you at their speed. You can't hit them at that speed. Significant, it has to be significant. If they can't be hit at long range, they shouldn't be able to damage anything at long range.

Have the Developers even fought or encountered a Harasser, much less a Harasser spam? They pick the fights, they escape when they want to. They can ambush you if they want to (you can't escape), you can't ambush them if you want to (they escape easily). That's the problem. There's no dps in any form that can damage it enough before it can skedaddle out of view/range.


Nanoweave and Snipers


- I'll wait for the actual post, but these Snipers complaining about nanoweave want low risk/high reward situations. Snipers are already kill-streakers. The current system is fine. All these guys do is deploy spam until they get to a high cliff, high mountain, high building, top of tower, top of antenna, top of tree, then snipe with impunity with very low risk and high rewards. And they still want some more?

They don't need to fix what's not broken. All these buffs to Vulcan, HE etc. weren't necessary at all in the first place. All they did was break stuff for months. Just go to any Youtube videos of Snipers killing nonstop and you'll see there's nothing to fix.
I destroy harassers with c4 and and tank mines all the time, its really not that hard. Every point you bring up is extremely exaggerated so trying to make any kind of argument with you is probably a waste of my time.

My favorite however is how harassers never flip lol! You obviously have not spent any significant time in a harasser because they flip all the time as if they had a loaded spring underneath them just waiting to go off after the slightest bump. Sounds like an amazing idea though. Lets balance vehicles by making them incredibly prone to flipping upside down and exploding.

To be able to make balance arguments you need to have spent considerable time gaining perspective from both sides. It's obvious from your post that you have not done that.

Last edited by Badjuju; 2013-11-01 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 2013-11-01, 01:33 PM   [Ignore Me] #21
maradine
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Re: Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser


Originally Posted by VikingKong View Post
Which is precisely why people brought it up. A buff to something that's nigh on impossible is not a buff.


I still say mid-fight repairs for a supposedly "hit-and-run style" vehicle makes no sense. Where's the running come into it? They have less reason to run than any other vehicle.
Still, at least they're doing something.
Yeah, this is actually my least favorite thing about the Harasser. I think it (and a bunch of other things) could be fixed by increasing the seat swap time, though.
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Old 2013-11-01, 01:33 PM   [Ignore Me] #22
Badjuju
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Re: Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser


Originally Posted by VikingKong View Post
Which is precisely why people brought it up. A buff to something that's nigh on impossible is not a buff.


I still say mid-fight repairs for a supposedly "hit-and-run style" vehicle makes no sense. Where's the running come into it? They have less reason to run than any other vehicle.
Still, at least they're doing something.
You can take out harassers quite easily be preemtively placing c4 or even baiting them onto c4. Your c4 doesn't need to be on a harasser to do a ton of damage, and now that damage is getting a boost. The purpose of the change is as stated. To make careless drivers pay even more for getting too close.

Personally I like that harassers can repair while moving. They take allot of damage very quick, and will now be taking more. I think people underestimate how quickly a harrasser can be burned down, even by a squad of infantry who is focusing small arms fire. The way harrasers function now really makes them a great team based vehicle where good crews will stand out against others, and most importantly it makes them incredibly fun.

Sounds like some good changes overall to tone them down just a bit.

Last edited by Badjuju; 2013-11-01 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 2013-11-01, 04:42 PM   [Ignore Me] #23
Laakus
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Re: Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser


Since I spend the majority of my time Harassing I'd like to share my thoughts on this. First, the minor changes like prox radar in the defense options is not exactly huge because when it comes down to it, Im still gonna run comp armor 90% of the time for my buggy. I know that it helps tanks out much more, but like I said, I'm in it for the harasser aspect.

Now to the more important stuff, nerfing our range, I mean, if I went to the trouble to cert out the 2.0x scope, actually have the luck to see a lightning that far off in the distance like on a mountain (that one inbetween crown and xroads comes to mind) and shoot at it in a timely manner cause the saron goes all over the place if you just spam it. I dont think it should be nerfed, I have to stay relatively still for my gunner and that tank still has a chance to hit us back....

Third, have the Dev's ever tried to take on a Vanguard as a harasser when they have BAD coordination let alone GOOD coordination. Its damn hard to do, so buffing their damage and forcing me to get closer than I'd like ( I try to stay at least 75 to 100 meters away, it forces the Vanguard/Prowler to rely on his secondary gunner to kill us and gives us 50/50 odds) is just kinda mean considering I lose over half my life with 1 main shot and an enforcer shot. I mean, depending on luck they have to get 3-4 shots, where as the harasser has to unload 3-4 clips, and thats butt shots which are hard to come by.

As far as infantry, I feel like its balance already as well. Hello striker, goodbye half my health on the buggy. I dont know what that guy who said that we dont blow up to tank mines was smoking because at night, on a bridge or anything like that, Ive died multiple times to them. C-4 is much rarer, but it happens when Im hanging around tech plants picking off infantry while I wait for the cap, and dont get me started on flipping, just thinking about flipping causes it to happen. In fact Im 50/50 in terms of death to flipping as I am with tanks, its annoying but you get over it.

On a final note, if we have a 3rd guy in the back healing us, we deserved to be a little stronger than a tank, think about it. Were still technically the weaker vehicle in terms of armor, we still only have 1 gun to fight back with, we still have to perform as a team, over 2 man vehicles, and its not like the repair gun lasts forever. The driver still has to maneuver in a way that keeps him relatively safe, oh and the third guy will probably get shot out half the time, and if you manage to get all 3 thats 3 kills AND a buggy, its a goldmine of certs. Thats my rant on how I think Harassers are already balanced, most of you will disagree, but Im ok with that, cause I said my peace....
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Old 2013-11-01, 05:04 PM   [Ignore Me] #24
Sardus
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Re: Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser


Ugh, I was really hoping that the ZOE would be one of the first things that they tweak after the optimization patch.

But any kind of balance patch is a good one. So glad to see they are working on them.
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Old 2013-11-02, 12:54 AM   [Ignore Me] #25
Mordelicius
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Re: Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser


Originally Posted by Badjuju View Post
I destroy harassers with c4 and and tank mines all the time, its really not that hard. Every point you bring up is extremely exaggerated so trying to make any kind of argument with you is probably a waste of my time.

My favorite however is how harassers never flip lol! You obviously have not spent any significant time in a harasser because they flip all the time as if they had a loaded spring underneath them just waiting to go off after the slightest bump. Sounds like an amazing idea though. Lets balance vehicles by making them incredibly prone to flipping upside down and exploding.

To be able to make balance arguments you need to have spent considerable time gaining perspective from both sides. It's obvious from your post that you have not done that.
Right. You'd want me to believe that Harassers that are hard to hit as it is with fast, projectile weapons can be C4ed just fine lol. What are you going to do, wait on a tree for hours until some really slow and clueless Harasser passes by?

Also, these Harassers just literally swoop over tank mines. They are that fast. If Tank mines and C4 counter Harassers, the outrage against it will be lesser. Just look at all the Tank/Sundy drivers who curse on LAs C4ing them. The difference is those two are almost always STATIONARY when getting c4ed. So no, I believe you're the mistaken one. And do you happen to be TR? Because, TR Vulcan/Marauders are insanely OP. You have to be NC or even Vanu to truly appreciate the devastation they cause.

As for Harassers flipping, lol, yeah if you're flying it 15-20 feet in the air like an acrobat it may flip. Even in those situations, it's rare that they flip. It's far too stable and it has like crazy shock absorbers too. Compare it to my Flash which will flip in a tiny bump. And if you flip on the side (not upside down), you can't exit a Flash (exits are blocked).

You're free to pick apart my arguments as much as you like. If you disagree with it, then post your counterpoints. Post it as long or as short as you like.

PS. We playtested the Harassers in the PTS before it even came out. Do you want me to quote my 'review' of Harassers in April's PTS tests? My point then was basically it was OP and it will essentially replace tanks.
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Old 2013-11-02, 01:00 AM   [Ignore Me] #26
Mordelicius
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Re: Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser


Originally Posted by GreyFrog View Post
Compare the Marauder to the M40, not the Bulldog, and I'm not convinced its as OP as everyone thinks.

As far as I can tell they are making most your changes.
Fury? SURE! Compare how many TR use Marauders in lieu of the Fury.

And compare NC or VS Fury users to TR fury users.

There's a chart out there by Maradine or another person. TR don't even use the Fury because they have a far upgraded version called the Marauder.
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Old 2013-11-02, 01:52 AM   [Ignore Me] #27
maradine
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Re: Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser


I got out of the chart business, but I do provide gems from time to time -

Average daily TR Fury-H users, global, 50 day set: 94.
Average daily Marauder-H users, global, 50 day set: 837.
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Old 2013-11-02, 03:12 AM   [Ignore Me] #28
HereticusXZ
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Re: Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser


Yes Harassers flip, frequently, PS2 Vehicle physics are awkward to say it kindly.

Saron, Vulcan and Enforcer are all and should be OP, That's the nature of Faction Specific Weapons to be stronger then the common stuff which is why it makes them difficult to balance. No one is more OP then the other, they all destroy most any vehicle fast in 2 clips or less and rape infantry.

Did you know they can snipe to? Infantry usually don't notice this inside there safe Infantry only zones but vehicles render at 800m+. Enforcer' pretty accurate at range, Saron if you fire slowly can to, Vulcan struggles with accuracy after 450m in my experience but if you single shot burst and adapt for bullet drop it can compete... Then there's the Halberd which is suppose to be for long-range. My point is the Harasser can snipe with powerful weapons!

Take these powerful weapons and mount them on a vehicle with a small profile that drives faster then most weapons can shoot and you have a obnoxiously hard to hit target on average that you have no chance against 1v1 because of it's small profile it will usually ambush you and get the first hit on you which is all it needs to kill you. Unless you gang up on it with a squad or ambush it with the first hit when it's not looking.

It's kind of obnoxious that a Harasser, this dinky little buggie, pending on it's Composite armor level can endure 3-4 AP main cannon shots from a MBT and repair on the move... I wish Nanite Auto Repair could repair my Tank while I'm under attack...

Yes! Make the weapons roles more defined with range differences and Yes! Make the harasser marginally more vulnerable to damage because of it's obnoxious speed, small profile, and Ability to repair on the move.

All this talk of Speed with Powerful attacks, I wonder when they will address ZOE again...
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Old 2013-11-02, 04:18 AM   [Ignore Me] #29
Jax Blake
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Re: Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser


Hmm wonder what Maradine's stats have to say about average kill per user for fury and maruader, doubt it's that far off.
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Old 2013-11-02, 06:19 AM   [Ignore Me] #30
Plaqueis
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Re: Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser


I'll just drop this here

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...=sharing#gid=0

They're a month old, but i doubt anything has changed.
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