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Old 2013-05-27, 12:23 PM   [Ignore Me] #76
Shogun
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Re: New player? Share your experience.


back before ps2 beta, people wanted the ps2 bases to be very different from ps1 and they always argumented with the higher number of players in ps2.

but now, that we have all played some ps2, do you still think, the exact ps1 basedesign would clegg up the gameflow? (sure, the bases would have to be inflated a bit to have more room and be in pair with the other gigantic buildings in ps2, but i am talking about the layout, the walls, the backdoors, the capturemechanics and other stuff inside)

i haven´t seen a single fight in ps2, that would not fit into a ps1 base, yet!
and i don´t think there is something wrong with an epic doorway-push.

and if the chokepoints create a stalemate, there is always the option for a generator attack or a drain/siege.

in ps2 there is no defence at all, and every battle ends with a spawncampfest or with the enemy leaving and a boring wait for the timer to complete.

so why is this boring timer stuff still in the game? they stripped all the cool stuff from ps1, but kept the annoying parts!

tl/dr:
do you think ps1 base layout would work in ps2?
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Old 2013-05-27, 03:00 PM   [Ignore Me] #77
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Re: New player? Share your experience.


^ Some of the PS1 bases were often times too hard to get in to when they were being defended. Especially the Interlink and Dropship Center. The new lattice in PS2 is prolonging the fights already and that's a good thing. But making bases like PS1 bases in PS2 might hinder the battle flow way too much which would produce too long of stalemates I think.

What I would like to see however that is similar to PS1 base captures is a mechanic that requires the attacking force to break through to a location near the spawns. This location must be captured in order to win the base. There would still be multiple remote capture points and taking those would make the timer progress towards taking the base. However, even if the capture timer gets to zero you would still have to have control over the main control console (CC) to be able to flip the base. How the spawn tubes and the CC should be setup I haven't thought too much about though. Vary the layouts though for variety of game-play for sure.
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Old 2013-05-27, 04:19 PM   [Ignore Me] #78
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Re: New player? Share your experience.


Originally Posted by Crator View Post
^ Some of the PS1 bases were often times too hard to get in to when they were being defended. Especially the Interlink and Dropship Center. The new lattice in PS2 is prolonging the fights already and that's a good thing. But making bases like PS1 bases in PS2 might hinder the battle flow way too much which would produce too long of stalemates I think.
.
In those bases you needed a 2:1 advantage to ensure victory. You also need to get AMSES in the right place, at least 3.

Once there the assault progressed in bites. First you forced the main room, then the stairs or backdoor and so on. Each area posed a problem and eventually the spawns were attacked and destroyed.

The nature of the bases made the assaults difficult, but at times they also made them epic. Take away one and you take away the other.

Fights in PS2 go the other way, e.g. tower fights. There will be a struggle but once attackers get to the first floor up, it's pretty much over barring reinforcements.

(Last Tuesday I took part in an attack on an interlink and I remembered how much I enjoyed them. Judging when was the right time to make a rush into the main room was tricky but involving, at least for me.)

pps you didn't mention Tech Plants, they could turn into farms for defenders too.

pps you didn't mention Amp Stations ...
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Old 2013-05-27, 07:09 PM   [Ignore Me] #79
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Re: New player? Share your experience.


Nonsense, you just needed an infil with a Routerpad to break those bases.

What zergs took 6 hours to do, me and DrBuggs would break in 15 minutes.
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Old 2013-05-28, 05:19 AM   [Ignore Me] #80
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Re: New player? Share your experience.


Originally Posted by Figment View Post
Nonsense, you just needed an infil with a Routerpad to break those bases.

What zergs took 6 hours to do, me and DrBuggs would break in 15 minutes.
Yea, and jeffbeefjaw and psycho and others...... ah, memories
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Old 2013-05-28, 12:09 PM   [Ignore Me] #81
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Re: New player? Share your experience.


PS1 base layout works with PS1 pops, around 399 per continent. It would not work with PS2's (overly ambitious in my opinion) continental populations.

If you scaled PS1's bases and just added more chokepoints without sacrificing the concept, it could work very well. Instead we have bases that are basically nothing more than temporary FOB's with no real indoor component.
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Old 2013-05-28, 03:05 PM   [Ignore Me] #82
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Re: New player? Share your experience.


Originally Posted by MasterChief096 View Post
PS1 base layout works with PS1 pops, around 399 per continent. It would not work with PS2's (overly ambitious in my opinion) continental populations.

If you scaled PS1's bases and just added more chokepoints without sacrificing the concept, it could work very well. Instead we have bases that are basically nothing more than temporary FOB's with no real indoor component.
scaling to ps2 pops could be done by adding 1 or 2 more doors to get into the bases and of course by inflating the whole building to match the other structures in ps2 and give more space for larger groups. but to be honest i haven´t seen bigger battles in ps2 then in ps1 so far.
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Old 2013-05-28, 04:04 PM   [Ignore Me] #83
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Re: New player? Share your experience.


Originally Posted by Shogun View Post
scaling to ps2 pops could be done by adding 1 or 2 more doors to get into the bases and of course by inflating the whole building to match the other structures in ps2 and give more space for larger groups. but to be honest i haven´t seen bigger battles in ps2 then in ps1 so far.
That's because its a gimmick. Sure you can have 2000 people or whatever on a continent, no that does not mean that you will ever see all 2000 in the same area. The system was designed to keep people spread out because, quite frankly, no one could render that many players.
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Old 2013-05-30, 07:22 AM   [Ignore Me] #84
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Re: New player? Share your experience.


Originally Posted by MasterChief096 View Post
That's because its a gimmick. Sure you can have 2000 people or whatever on a continent, no that does not mean that you will ever see all 2000 in the same area. The system was designed to keep people spread out because, quite frankly, no one could render that many players.
decide!

you can´t say ps1 bases wouldn´t work with ps2s higher populations and say at the same time, that ps2 is designed to spread out more because the higher population wouldn´t render anyways.

i haven´t seen fights in ps2 that would overpopulate bases if they had ps1 layout so far. so i don´t think the argument of ps1 bases not working because of higher pop in ps2 is valid. after all, more real interior means less people to render than in ps2 bases where everything is open.
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Old 2013-05-30, 01:51 PM   [Ignore Me] #85
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Re: New player? Share your experience.


The mistake is considering just layouts and not anything else. For instance, rephrasing the problem as transposing concepts instead of transposing base layouts makes the idea more interesting.

Figment made a lot of great posts with interesting discussion of ideas and concepts.

Saying "let's port this mechanic because it was in PS1!" could fail just as it could work-out. On the other hand, thinking what concept worked in PS1 how/why and adapting the concept to PS2 is be a better way to implement a solution.

ex:
- walls should have a real use for defense
- spawns should not be shellable by tanks
- generators should be protected and provide an alternative way to take control of a base
etc...

Concepts is what counts, not lay-outs.

It also works PS2-to-PS2 ! eg: Why is the crown so successful ?

Originally Posted by MasterChief096 View Post
That's because its a gimmick. Sure you can have 2000 people or whatever on a continent, no that does not mean that you will ever see all 2000 in the same area. The system was designed to keep people spread out because, quite frankly, no one could render that many players.
I agree with this statement. And I'll add that I never felt PS2 to be that "massive".

Last edited by sylphaen; 2013-05-30 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 2013-05-30, 06:15 PM   [Ignore Me] #86
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Re: New player? Share your experience.


I'm agreeing with both of you.

PS2 bragged about 2000 per continent and then designed mechanics to keep fights smaller than PS1, yet made the bases even more open. They didn't make up their mind.
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Old 2013-05-30, 07:22 PM   [Ignore Me] #87
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Re: New player? Share your experience.


That is an unfortunate impression i got over the whole development time of planetside 2; Beyond the idea of having real big battles with a lot of players and using "planetside" as a sort of theme there just doesn't seem to be a true "masterplan" behind it.

That is basically my main gripe with the whole games industry these days; Games are no longer being made with an idea, but with a cash shop in mind. And despite still having the possibility to become a groundbreaking game with original, visionary gameplay and mechanics, planetside 2 falls exactly into that category.
One gimmick (lots of players on one map - which is impressive, no doubt), but no real idea what to do with it and not thinking stuff through on the way. Oh, and of course launching prematurely and having a cash shop.

I know this sounds like bitter ramblings, and it may as well be, but i have seen nothing so far that convinced me there really is some sort of "vision" or "idea" behind Ps2.
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Old 2013-05-31, 06:25 AM   [Ignore Me] #88
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Re: New player? Share your experience.


Originally Posted by sylphaen View Post
Concepts is what counts, not lay-outs.

It also works PS2-to-PS2 ! eg: Why is the crown so successful ?
that´s right. sometimes i don´t use the best words. but the bases in ps1 had a layout with a great concept ( walls with catwalks, only 2 gates for vehicles, backdoor for surprise maxrush,etc.)

ps2 bases just seem to be made to look nice.period. all concepts that matter are afterthoughts that were implemented to correct the initial failure. like the particle lifts and jumppads at biolab platforms.

and to your last sentence:
congratulations soe! you just destroyed the only outpost that worked nice.
the success of the crown just ended. instead of adding a concept from ps1 regarding the break of a stalemate, they took the defensability away by moving the capturepoints right to where the attackers come from.
what a dick move!
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Old 2013-05-31, 06:40 AM   [Ignore Me] #89
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Re: New player? Share your experience.


Originally Posted by Babyfark McGeez View Post
That is an unfortunate impression i got over the whole development time of planetside 2; Beyond the idea of having real big battles with a lot of players and using "planetside" as a sort of theme there just doesn't seem to be a true "masterplan" behind it.

That is basically my main gripe with the whole games industry these days; Games are no longer being made with an idea, but with a cash shop in mind. And despite still having the possibility to become a groundbreaking game with original, visionary gameplay and mechanics, planetside 2 falls exactly into that category.
One gimmick (lots of players on one map - which is impressive, no doubt), but no real idea what to do with it and not thinking stuff through on the way. Oh, and of course launching prematurely and having a cash shop.

I know this sounds like bitter ramblings, and it may as well be, but i have seen nothing so far that convinced me there really is some sort of "vision" or "idea" behind Ps2.
it doesn´t happen too often, but i totally agree with you here. on every aspect!

a simple adaption of ps1 to modern graphics and minor adjustments to the things that didn´t work well would have been a much better game. there was no need to make it bigger! ps1 numbers would have worked on todays machines. ps2 numbers don´t ... again.
and adapting all the lazy mechanics of casual shooters just because they were successful games was the wrong way. ps1 had better systems in place, but it wasn´t as successful as battlefield, so they scrapped those things. but was planetside unsuccessful because of the mechanics? no! just because it was too far ahead of its time and the available tech.

and now ps2 is not only again ahead of the available tech (most of my friends can´t play because of the low fps and i bough a rig exclusively for ps2), it is also stripped of the fun features no other game could deliver.

i stopped buying any SC right after release. because my hope went down, that ps2 can ever live up to my expectations. and i went on to back star citizen instead. the team there still sounds like they have a real vision. and they are independant. maybe crowdfunded games will be the only source of innovation in the future. companies like sony don´t have the balls to develope something unique no more. they all just try to copypaste old stuff from other games that were successful.
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Old 2013-05-31, 10:32 AM   [Ignore Me] #90
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Re: New player? Share your experience.


I didn't know we allways disagree. Well, good that we're on the same page for once then.

Star Citizen is not my type of game, but i totally agree, that seems to be a game with a clear vision behind it. Unlike pretty much all AAA games that come out these days. It's no surprise that the fresh air breathed into video gaming these days solely comes from indie projects (minecraft, dayz spring immediately to mind), where people have an idea and go from there. As opposed to people having a day-to-day job in some video game company where they are all very good with texturing, modelling or coding, but have no clue what to do with it.

The key for the future of this industry lies in video game companies drawing from the creative source of indie devs and incorporating them into their work (and i don't mean ripping them off - i mean cooperating with them).

Last edited by Babyfark McGeez; 2013-05-31 at 10:42 AM.
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