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Old 2011-07-25, 02:26 AM   [Ignore Me] #1
DviddLeff
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My main concern about the class system


The class system I see as overall being a good thing; in PS giving one player too many options turned people into one man armies being able to take down infantry and vehicles well and then heal, repair and use command abilities all with a single load out.

Making players specialise to a specific role at a time will lead to a great amount of teamwork being required, just like in the early days of PS where people were restricted with their certs (imagine a time when only a few people were BR15, let alone 20) and so had to specialise totally.

In my upgrade projects certification overhaul I retained the inventory and cert system, just massively reduced the amount of cert points available so that any one player could only really afford one advanced weapon cert (eg HA or AV), a support role and a vehicle as well as a special armour (MAX, Agile with jump jets or Infil).

However the problem I see is one of specialised squads of players. For example if you have a fast assault squad equipped with jump jets to perform hit and run attacks, will any of them be able to have a support role, or will they be confined to that fast assault role while they use the jump jets? Will they be able to use AV or AA weapons (perhaps weaker, lighter ones than a Rexo may carry)?
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Old 2011-07-25, 02:38 AM   [Ignore Me] #2
Vancha
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Re: My main concern about the class system


A medic with jumpjets? That's the one thing I might play over a sniper...

*Jumps in*
Fear not, citizen! I am here to heal you!
*Flies off*
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Old 2011-07-25, 02:39 AM   [Ignore Me] #3
Bags
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Re: My main concern about the class system


I don't like class system at all. Their cert system in ps1 worked fine until we got half a million certs to spend.
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Old 2011-07-25, 03:01 AM   [Ignore Me] #4
opticalshadow
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Re: My main concern about the class system


Originally Posted by Bags View Post
I don't like class system at all. Their cert system in ps1 worked fine until we got half a million certs to spend.
well the orginal cert system did not contain any package cert deals. every vehicle was its own cert, though guns remained much the same. so there was alot more certs needed to achomplish things. they merged certs when the playerbase declined and the requirement for less soldires preforming more jobs was needed.


the class system sounds free forming enough on paper, but i wish they would give us a video example of their concept.
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Old 2011-07-25, 08:19 AM   [Ignore Me] #5
SKYeXile
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Re: My main concern about the class system


Originally Posted by Bags View Post
I don't like class system at all. Their cert system in ps1 worked fine until we got half a million certs to spend.
I like your use of the my little pony avatar and the homosexuality it represents, i may just have to steal the use of it from you.
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Old 2011-07-25, 08:31 AM   [Ignore Me] #6
cashfoyogash
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Re: My main concern about the class system


The only real way to keep people from mastering it all i think is to make it so there is so much to learn and it take so long to learn that its impossible. Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that. I think SOE took a close look at how EVE did their skill learning set up, we should be ok.
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Old 2011-07-25, 08:48 AM   [Ignore Me] #7
Lunarchild
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Re: My main concern about the class system


Originally Posted by cashfoyogash View Post
The only real way to keep people from mastering it all i think is to make it so there is so much to learn and it take so long to learn that its impossible. Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that. I think SOE took a close look at how EVE did their skill learning set up, we should be ok.
Which happens to be the exact thing I loathe about Eve. It takes six months to be effective at anything means you're not playing the game for six months. I personally hope it takes seconds, minutes or hours to learn the basic skill set for any class, definitely not more.
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Old 2011-07-25, 09:00 AM   [Ignore Me] #8
Warruz
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Re: My main concern about the class system


Originally Posted by Lunarchild View Post
Which happens to be the exact thing I loathe about Eve. It takes six months to be effective at anything means you're not playing the game for six months. I personally hope it takes seconds, minutes or hours to learn the basic skill set for any class, definitely not more.
I think their goal for such a system is to allow you to pick one class and learn it effortlessly and perhaps the starting certs for the other classes, however to get further down certs you will have to focus on one to keep it on track in terms of your BR. To get the others for other classes it will take more time.
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Old 2011-07-25, 11:37 AM   [Ignore Me] #9
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Re: My main concern about the class system


Originally Posted by cashfoyogash View Post
Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that.
In 3 months you can mine 80-90% as good as someone with every mining skill maxed. Which takes MUCH longer.

From how they describe it, You'll be 75% as effective day one at a role in PS2. Maybe missing some sidegrade options that increase your versatility or weapon choices, but you can do the job.


Originally Posted by DviddLeff View Post
I also get the impression that many certs will have to be unlocked as you get more BR, so for example at BR5 you could get access to support certs, BR10 MAX, Infil and Agile armour, etc
Sounds like it to me too. But I also got the impression that BR was going to not be much of a chokepoint at all. I imagine they are leaving it in just so you can't train an alt up much without playing it for a period of time.



Originally Posted by Headrattle View Post
Essentially you have traded the concept that a guy could have Engi/HA/AV/Medic at the same time as long as he has the Level (though not as effective at it) with a guy who can change into any class without reguardless of level (though not as effective at it.) It seems strange to me. You get rid of the options of having some different abilities as long as you are high enough level and certs, and replace it with having all different abilities from level one just not at the same time. See what I am getting at here? Doesn't look good.
I quite like it. You can change classes, but you must go re equip at a terminal. Thats fine by me. PS balance was silly.

"You drive lots of vehicles, so we're going to make you suck when you step out of them"

"You like infantry, so you're going to be farmed by vehicles outside"

PS balance was making you dominate in one area so you could suck in another. It twisted the certs into a rock paper scissors game, where you got to 'win' only part of the time, due to greatly superior equipment options, and put you at a disadvantage the rest of the time.

Thats silly. Its bad balance. Every armor, every vehicle, every weapon should have a role. No single combination should dominate in every situation to the point where thats what everyone picks. There should be a reason to bring MA to a base fight over HA. A reason to bring AV out into the field over a tank.

TF2 has 9 different classes. Do teams always pick just one class? Is there one or two classes that are clearly the best in 95% of the situations? Nope. Everything has a job, and people pick all the classes. Some more than others, sure, and it definitely depends on the environment, but there is always a healthy representation due to usefulness and personal preference.

If classes are balanced, class representation will be balanced. It won't matter if you can switch, because everyone else is switching too. To different stuff, all the time. Your worry that people can switch is a direct result of PSs lack of balance. You assume they will switch to the rexo/av/ha/med/eng class, or the AI max class, because those were clearly dominant in fights indoors, because in PS1, they are totally imbalanced vs any other infantry choice.

Last edited by CutterJohn; 2011-07-25 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 2011-07-25, 12:11 PM   [Ignore Me] #10
Lonehunter
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Re: My main concern about the class system


I remember Higby saying jump jets will only be available to a lightly armored class.

But to the OP, I think we can still be close to a jack of all trades. Like in one class you can pick up a ground vech, air, a specialized weapon tree, some support skills. But you won't be able to advance deep into every tree?

I'm fine with regular infantry being able to get med engi, but those advanced down those support trees will heal/repair much faster, adv med, stuff like that.
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And if you back in 2003 decided you wanted to play RTS games, between then and now you'd have dozens of RTS games you could have played. If you decided to play MMOFPS' between then and now, there were none
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Old 2011-07-25, 03:27 PM   [Ignore Me] #11
Headrattle
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Re: My main concern about the class system


Originally Posted by CutterJohn View Post
I quite like it. You can change classes, but you must go re equip at a terminal. Thats fine by me. PS balance was silly.

"You drive lots of vehicles, so we're going to make you suck when you step out of them"

"You like infantry, so you're going to be farmed by vehicles outside"

PS balance was making you dominate in one area so you could suck in another. It twisted the certs into a rock paper scissors game, where you got to 'win' only part of the time, due to greatly superior equipment options, and put you at a disadvantage the rest of the time.
Not really. You had options. You couldn't be everything ever. You could have a vehicle specialty, and an infantry specialty. And you couldn't do the same thing at the same time and be really effective it. Being a driver and carrying around a glue gun meant that you couldn't carry around a lot of ammo or an extra weapon and you weren't usually in Rexo. You could still do that, provided you had the certs, and then you could do it only at an equipment station.

Thats silly. Its bad balance. Every armor, every vehicle, every weapon should have a role. No single combination should dominate in every situation to the point where thats what everyone picks. There should be a reason to bring MA to a base fight over HA. A reason to bring AV out into the field over a tank.
I will agree that HA dominates the situation now, but before we had so many certs HA wasn't so bad. You didn't have HA because you had othercerts that were just as important. Now you HAVE to have HA. But it wasn't always like that. But it is going to have to have Rock Paper Scissors type balance no matter what. Only now EVERYONE has access to whatever skill they need. All the time.

This isn't TF2, so that is a bad example. Classes in TF2 would not work well in a MMOFPS because in PS2 the types of battles will be more varied. Not the same essentially close range grudge fights that TF2 has.

If classes are balanced, class representation will be balanced. It won't matter if you can switch, because everyone else is switching too. To different stuff, all the time. Your worry that people can switch is a direct result of PSs lack of balance. You assume they will switch to the rexo/av/ha/med/eng class, or the AI max class, because those were clearly dominant in fights indoors, because in PS1, they are totally imbalanced vs any other infantry choice.
But it only became that way because they added the possibility of so many cert points. It wasn't always thus. What you are complaining about is only going to get worse. Is there a heavy indoor battle? Most everyone jumps to HA classes. Is it a heavy outdoor battle? Most everyone jumps to AV or long range AI classes. With classes the game of Rock Paper Scissors will get WORSE, not better.
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Old 2011-07-25, 05:31 PM   [Ignore Me] #12
ShowNoMercy
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Re: My main concern about the class system


Originally Posted by cashfoyogash View Post
The only real way to keep people from mastering it all i think is to make it so there is so much to learn and it take so long to learn that its impossible. Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that. I think SOE took a close look at how EVE did their skill learning set up, we should be ok.
Thats what makes eve so crappy and PS1 so good. The skill gap between a PS1 newb and vet is simply a matter of in game play time and experience. The gap between an eve newb and vet depends on how far apart they started playing and will always exist.
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Old 2011-07-26, 03:38 AM   [Ignore Me] #13
Baron
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Re: My main concern about the class system


Originally Posted by ShowNoMercy View Post
Thats what makes eve so crappy and PS1 so good. The skill gap between a PS1 newb and vet is simply a matter of in game play time and experience. The gap between an eve newb and vet depends on how far apart they started playing and will always exist.
I believe devs also said that no matter what, the maximum difference between a BR Awesome veteran and a guy logging in for the first time will be 15%-20%.

To me this is more balanced than it is now, with free REXO / 3 implant slots / etc... I love the fact that a BR1 can engage and possible win against a BR40, I don't think the devs will mess with that success chance very much.
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Old 2011-07-26, 03:48 AM   [Ignore Me] #14
Vancha
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Re: My main concern about the class system


Originally Posted by ShowNoMercy View Post
Thats what makes eve so crappy and PS1 so good. The skill gap between a PS1 newb and vet is simply a matter of in game play time and experience. The gap between an eve newb and vet depends on how far apart they started playing and will always exist.
Newb: I shot you plentiful times, Veteran. How is it your body does not lay at my feet?!

Vet: I had Personal Shield, defenseless newbie. It drains my stamina instead of my mortality, so that I might survive to fight another day!

Newb: How might I obtain such a mighty tool, oh distinguished Veteran of war?

Vet: From the depositories that imbue super powers at battle ranks 6, 12 and 18!

Last edited by Vancha; 2011-07-26 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 2011-07-25, 12:19 PM   [Ignore Me] #15
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Re: My main concern about the class system


Originally Posted by Bags View Post
I don't like class system at all. Their cert system in ps1 worked fine until we got half a million certs to spend.
I have to agree with this and its just how I feel at this time until I hear more info on it... period
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