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Old 2013-12-10, 01:44 PM   [Ignore Me] #46
BlaxicanX
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Re: DEV reddit AMA- "ANT will most likely be the Sunderer with an ANT module" says WH


You probably won't be ABLE to pull an AMS/ANT sunderer. I don't know why that is so hard a concept to grasp.

The ANT module will almost certainly be in the same utility category as AMS, ammo, repair, etc. So that means that you'll be able to choose ONE of those utilities and nothing else. It can't be an ANT and an AMS.

So the only thing it'll still have is guns and a 12-man carrying capacity. Who the hell cares? Guns will be necessary because this isn't Planetside 1- ANY vehicle without guns is a dead vehicle in this game, sans maybe the flash which is so small and fast that it can escape detection.

No one ever uses the 12-man transport capacity for any serious transportation or assaulting, they use the AMS, so the vehicle having said capacity is hardly giving it duel-roles.

Your complaints don't hold water when you look at the reality of the game.
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Old 2013-12-10, 02:11 PM   [Ignore Me] #47
Blynd
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Re: DEV reddit AMA- "ANT will most likely be the Sunderer with an ANT module" says WH


If like to see the AMS ammo repair all in the same option so you can only pick one that would make it more interesting and also the defenders would have to try and work out which one is the ams so its not just an easy there is a sundy go kill it cause its an ams. We all pull ams with ammo or repair it shoud be exclusive.
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Old 2013-12-10, 03:17 PM   [Ignore Me] #48
Carbon Copied
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Re: DEV reddit AMA- "ANT will most likely be the Sunderer with an ANT module" says WH


@Blaxican

I'm sure you're right you won't be able to combine AMS and ANT I didn't say otherwise - maybe when I put ANT/AMS you misread it and not as an alternative. No hard to grasp concepts beyond that of reading.

I was trying to put the point across of increasing the risk/reward for the choices made on the sunderer e.g (equipped with AMS or ANT) I can only seat 5; however if I run my support or battle sunderer (equipped with GSD or similar) I have maximum capacity etc. as well as maybe a dynamic resource cost increasing the "value" that the various utilities equipped hold.
If one random pulls the AMS and drives off - you're right it makes near no difference currently; however down the road (and this is speculating/borderline utopian player base I admit) once continental lattice comes in people are not just spamming S-AMS's where the risk and reward side encourages (but doesn't force) people to look and think about things that are rolling off the vehicle pad to get people to the next place because there will be a greater pop per continent (hopefully).

TL: dr It boils down to the risk/reward aspect not one specific limit of "must have x seats locked" and so forth. There's "does the job" and there's "does the job better" - currently it's "does the job equally well with little thought required outside the box".
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Old 2013-12-10, 03:47 PM   [Ignore Me] #49
HereticusXZ
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Re: DEV reddit AMA- "ANT will most likely be the Sunderer with an ANT module" says WH


Ammo and Repair are Defense slot options. AMS is Utility slot. If the ANT goes to Utility that means you can't have AMS but you can still have either Ammo or Repair.

Sunderer is the ONLY support vehicle in the game, everything else is strictly speaking offensive or defensive. 13 vehicles in the game and only 1 support?

Galaxy and Flash exist only to taxi players and minor offensive options between Wraith module and battle gal.

Liberator, ESF, MBT, and Harasser all exist almost exclusively as offensive options.

Lightning between a HEAT, AP, or HE cannon is used offensively, or Skyguard defensively.

Situations vary from player to player pending the environment there in and the individual playstyle but the fact remains that the Sunderer is the only vehicle in the game that carries a mobile spawn, repairs allies, supply's allies, and can gate shield diffuser or blockade as a battle-sundy.

With the Sunderer being the end all beat all do everything vehicle, shouldn't there be more support vehicles added to balance this grossly giant number of offensive vehicles? Such as making the ANT it's own unique vehicle, there's plenty of appeal with the siege mechanic it has!
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Old 2013-12-10, 05:11 PM   [Ignore Me] #50
Baneblade
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Re: DEV reddit AMA- "ANT will most likely be the Sunderer with an ANT module" says WH


Originally Posted by Malorn View Post
Says me!

I had a good discussion with Kevmo about it a few months ago, we agreed that the ANT made sense as a Sunderer mod and not a standalone vehicle. The reasons are:

1) It adds more value to the Sundy, so all the players who certed one up and have weapons and cosmetics will get more mileage out of their investments. It's essentially a support vehicle, so giving the support vehicle more value made more sense than creating a new support vehicle.

2) The ANT as a standalone vehicle wasn't compelling enough to warrant a new vehicle. If we're going to make it, it needs to be more interesting than just a power transport vehicle, and that feature-creeps it a lot more than is reasonable.

3) We have already created the Sundy as a utility vehicle by putting the AMS module, the repair module, and the rearm module. It makes sense to add to that for other support utility functionality.

And yes, I would like to see some significant cosmetic differences so you can easily differentiate an ANT sundy from an AMS sundy, as well as the difference between a full ANT and an empty ANT. Don't know how far it'll get, but that's the goal.
It would also be nice if AMS/ANT Sunderers and such were not fully combat capable transports with full armaments.
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Old 2013-12-10, 05:21 PM   [Ignore Me] #51
Vashyo
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Re: DEV reddit AMA- "ANT will most likely be the Sunderer with an ANT module" says WH


I too, would prefer some simple vehicle like in PS1. If only for having more vehicle variety in the game and besides sundys the only support vehicle in the whole game.

I certainly hope we get some more vehicles in the future, its been over a year and the only addition has been the harasser. :/
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Old 2013-12-10, 05:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #52
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Re: DEV reddit AMA- "ANT will most likely be the Sunderer with an ANT module" says WH


I need to comment on the Sunderer do all situation. I played planetside 1, and I really like the variety of vehicles, if only for new and exciting things to kill. My only complaint about an ANT sunderer, is that it will take exactly the same amount of effort to kill as any other. Perhaps this is not an overly bad thing, I will have to see on PST.

However since we are bringing back ant functionality, I have a suggestion. Individual Nanite resource pool for vehicles, perhaps even infantry. "But Ogre, are you insane, or what does this even mean?!" I am super glad you asked. At a minimum, vehicles that repair/ resupply should have a bar of "nanites" and as they distribute out their ammo, repairs, AMS respawns, etc, it is depleted. An ANT could refuel this, or you could wander back to a warpgate or whatever point is implemented. Medics and Engineers could run out of nanites to repair and heal and have to backtrack for supplies. The infantry side should be a slower drain, and able to refuel at hacked terminals.

A sub idea is to cut the number of ammo towers, or remove them all together. This par is ignorable but the implications are worth a discussion.

What does this force? the meta. resources. Supply lines. Sure you can zerg, but you cant zerg forever without some logistics, the further you get the more work it takes. Simply parking your ammo sunderer, or repair vehicle, or hiding an AMS, wont last forever. Perhaps for 3-10 minutes at full draw, but you are gonna need ANT support. The time is adjustable to taste, just my own ideas there.

From there we bring in galaxies as a true counterpart in utility. Instead of a whole new airframe, we get a utility module that is something like "mag (magnetic) crane" It would simply allow a galaxy to hover low over a vehicle and pick it up. different tiers for different vehicles. Carried underneath it externally.

Another module could be a cargo bay, land, vehicles drive up and in. I know I'm getting too far ahead of myself, but really. Just a patch dedicated to adding logistics to the game would be greater then any new vehicle or weapon.
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Old 2013-12-10, 05:59 PM   [Ignore Me] #53
Whiteagle
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Re: DEV reddit AMA- "ANT will most likely be the Sunderer with an ANT module" says WH


Originally Posted by Ogre View Post
To finish this one up. You guys, as a community, are really unorganized. You need to get together here, pile up a list of concise questions to ask the devs at the next AMA, and make that happen. "hey how will a sunderer ANT work? Will it have weapons? blah blah blah" instead I see complaints with no solutions offered, no further thought put into them.
Originally Posted by Bobby Shaftoe View Post
The vast majority of people who would bother to put the effort into that have long since stopped playing or bothering... because SOE didn't listen to them anyway and will do their usual stumble along making the mistakes pointed out here months in advance.

PS2 won't change significantly because of SOEs design decisions from the start, tacking on random PS1 mechanics won't work because there is no inter-relation between the mechanics for them to work/be useful/have a real impact anyway.
You see Orge, a large number of us did this kind of critical thinking WAY back in Beta, in fact...

Originally Posted by Ogre View Post
about the Ant sunderer, and planetside in general. I personally feel the game is still very much a paid beta. I enjoy the product enough that I am happy to give SOE my monthly fee. The game has to have cashflow to get better, so whatever. I got the money to burn, not everyone does.

I suspect the future modules will dramatically change how a sunderer looks/ feels. I imagine it looking like a short Semi Truck with an empty bed. What you slap on the back changes what you can do with it. Crew compartment? Get guns. Ant module? Get energy. Respawn AMS? Get a cloak unit. The sunderer will probably go on to have a dedicated two man crew cab up front.
You're suggestion was one of the first threads I made here...

Originally Posted by Malorn View Post
Says me!

I had a good discussion with Kevmo about it a few months ago, we agreed that the ANT made sense as a Sunderer mod and not a standalone vehicle. The reasons are:

1) It adds more value to the Sundy, so all the players who certed one up and have weapons and cosmetics will get more mileage out of their investments. It's essentially a support vehicle, so giving the support vehicle more value made more sense than creating a new support vehicle.

2) The ANT as a standalone vehicle wasn't compelling enough to warrant a new vehicle. If we're going to make it, it needs to be more interesting than just a power transport vehicle, and that feature-creeps it a lot more than is reasonable.

3) We have already created the Sundy as a utility vehicle by putting the AMS module, the repair module, and the rearm module. It makes sense to add to that for other support utility functionality.

And yes, I would like to see some significant cosmetic differences so you can easily differentiate an ANT sundy from an AMS sundy, as well as the difference between a full ANT and an empty ANT. Don't know how far it'll get, but that's the goal.
But Malorn, not only does the Sunderer already do practically everything, adding MORE features are just going to devalue the ones it already has!

Assuming the ANT Tank is going to be a Utility Slot, it's going to compete with AMS and maybe the Gate Shield Diffuser, while further marginalizing the Smoke Screen, Proximity Radar, and Fire Suppression System options.

Now I like that, like the Harrasser, the Sunderer is a rather beastly combat machine when properly crewed, but if it's the go to vehicle for EVERYTHING in the game you are going to create nothing but Sunderer spam.
ANT's not having weapons is there defining Tactical flaw, they either need to avoid detection or depend on the rest of their Faction for protection.

While it would be awesome if you could overhauled the entire vehicle load out system to be more than three poorly implemented Slots, I doubt you guys have the resources or time to do so.

So here is my idea...

You use your current Sunderer ANT model, but tweek it so that it is a stand alone vehicle.
No weapons, seats two, but can use all the cosmetics that the Sunderer can and MAYBE has a bit better handling.
BAM! "New" vehicle!
It's not a perfect solution, but...
Originally Posted by Carbon Copied View Post
  • Seats 12 no matter what utility you put on it - wheres the logistic management, deeper customization and risk/reward of that? If I chose to AMS/ANT my sunderer (as example), shouldn't there be sacrifices to accommodate this and create the "you pull an S-AMS and I'll pull the escort Sunderer?" decision/thinking - the fact it can defend itself and essentially not rely on third party support I believe is what makes it considerably more boring in the first place.
It does provide deeper metagame options due to forced diversity.
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Old 2013-12-10, 08:27 PM   [Ignore Me] #54
Calista
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Re: DEV reddit AMA- "ANT will most likely be the Sunderer with an ANT module" says WH


This game takes economy of scale to a whole new level doesn't it?
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Old 2013-12-10, 10:46 PM   [Ignore Me] #55
Ogre
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Re: DEV reddit AMA- "ANT will most likely be the Sunderer with an ANT module" says WH


While I'll take what I can get, I have a suggestion to our benevolent overlords. If an ant were to be created, perhaps a community sourced model would be cool. Something along the lines of "if you guys want it so bad, make it yourself." Multiple rounds of creation, where the best models out of a bunch are picked and then put up for refinement. Mightbecool.
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Old 2013-12-11, 01:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #56
Calisai
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Re: DEV reddit AMA- "ANT will most likely be the Sunderer with an ANT module" says WH


Originally Posted by Malorn View Post
Says me!

I had a good discussion with Kevmo about it a few months ago, we agreed that the ANT made sense as a Sunderer mod and not a standalone vehicle.

3) We have already created the Sundy as a utility vehicle by putting the AMS module, the repair module, and the rearm module. It makes sense to add to that for other support utility functionality.

And yes, I would like to see some significant cosmetic differences so you can easily differentiate an ANT sundy from an AMS sundy, as well as the difference between a full ANT and an empty ANT. Don't know how far it'll get, but that's the goal.
Please consider making a smaller ANT module for the Harasser (that takes the place of the Rumble seat & possibly gunner as well). Even if it's a smaller capacity... the Harasser is just plain fun to drive... making ANT runs be much more enjoyable.

I think a High-capacity, higher damage soaking, slower moving Sundy ANT, combined with a small-capacity, low damage soaking, but very fast Harasser ANT may make for some interesting play.
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Old 2013-12-11, 01:51 PM   [Ignore Me] #57
Whiteagle
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Re: DEV reddit AMA- "ANT will most likely be the Sunderer with an ANT module" says WH


Originally Posted by Ogre View Post
While I'll take what I can get, I have a suggestion to our benevolent overlords. If an ant were to be created, perhaps a community sourced model would be cool. Something along the lines of "if you guys want it so bad, make it yourself." Multiple rounds of creation, where the best models out of a bunch are picked and then put up for refinement. Mightbecool.
While Community outsourcing is a great way to free up developer resources, this is going to require more than just a model...

You've got animation, programming, sound design, on top of system integration, all which can be a mess even if you are doing it in-house.

Originally Posted by Calisai View Post
Please consider making a smaller ANT module for the Harasser (that takes the place of the Rumble seat & possibly gunner as well). Even if it's a smaller capacity... the Harasser is just plain fun to drive... making ANT runs be much more enjoyable.

I think a High-capacity, higher damage soaking, slower moving Sundy ANT, combined with a small-capacity, low damage soaking, but very fast Harasser ANT may make for some interesting play.
Indeed...

...I'd personally want to see an Airborne ANT as well.
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Old 2013-12-13, 12:22 AM   [Ignore Me] #58
raw
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Re: DEV reddit AMA- "ANT will most likely be the Sunderer with an ANT module" says WH


Originally Posted by Whiteagle View Post

But Malorn, not only does the Sunderer already do practically everything, adding MORE features are just going to devalue the ones it already has!
Couldn't disagree more. In fact, adding the ANT as a module to the sunderer would finally bring some choices & consequences into the game.

Assuming the ANT Tank is going to be a Utility Slot, it's going to compete with AMS and maybe the Gate Shield Diffuser, [...]
Exactly. That's the prime reason the ANT should be on the Sunderer.

Last edited by raw; 2013-12-13 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 2013-12-13, 12:37 AM   [Ignore Me] #59
Whiteagle
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Re: DEV reddit AMA- "ANT will most likely be the Sunderer with an ANT module" says WH


Originally Posted by raw View Post
Couldn't disagree more. In fact, adding the ANT as a module to the sunderer would finally bring some choices & consequences into the game.
Uh, how?

There are already three Utility options you almost never see on a Sunderer because AMS is mandatory and a Gate Shield Diffuser is situationally useful, adding yet ANOTHER required device is not only going to further devalue those three but also make the Sunderer disproportionably more necessary than every other vehicle!

Why pull TANKS if a properly crewed and equipped ANT Sundie is a far superior Armored Fighting Vehicle?
The game will turn into Sundererside if this happens...
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Old 2014-01-11, 02:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #60
Rivenshield
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Re: DEV reddit AMA- "ANT will most likely be the Sunderer with an ANT module" says WH


Originally Posted by Malorn View Post
The ANT as a standalone vehicle wasn't compelling enough to warrant a new vehicle. If we're going to make it, it needs to be more interesting than just a power transport vehicle, and that feature-creeps it a lot more than is reasonable.
/mulls it over

/shrugs

Okay. I'll take your word for it. Yours and yours alone, maestro.

I still have a bad feeling about driving that slow, ungainly, slipping-sliding underpowered parade float of a vehicle from the warp gate to... well, to anywhere. It'll make the ANT runs of yesteryear look like happy fun time. The old ANT was demonstrably faster than a Sundie and the continents were smaller. It was also air-portable. I just can't see how this is going to work.

So I'll take it on faith. Multiple nanite-nodes scattered across the continent, perhaps...?
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