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Old 2012-07-01, 05:27 AM   [Ignore Me] #76
Figment
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Re: Reality check -- playing PS1 for the past three days


Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
Reading this discussion, I'm finding the deeper, beneficial meaning in opening up PS1 to all the vets that held on so dearly to the "good ol' ways" while bashing every little change to PS2. They can see why PS2 is being designed the way it is now, and are having their eyes opened to just how big a mistake reintroducing Planetside 1's gun play and mechanics would be in today's day and age. It simply would not appeal to the masses like it needs to do be the great game we all want it to be.
On some points like gun play sure, on others, not so much. It also shows the flaws of PS2 because you can see things like how poor the Galaxy is at approaching a base and staying in its vicinity, compared to an AMS. You can see how important it is you have every single man available to defend a hack point and not be spread out over 20 different hack points in a large area and on top of that whatever spawnpoint you managed to capture or bring (Galaxy).

Rose-tinted glasses make everything look better, but then when you take them off...
And does that apply to you regarding the flaws of PS2 as well? There are loads of PS2 fanboys who whether they do or do not play PS1 do NOT see the flaws of PS2 design.

Planetside 1 really was flawed in too many ways. Yeah, we remembered the GREAT fights we had... the bulk of our FPS' were the strafe and shoot type of games back then.

Today, after all of the modern age games we've had time to experience, PS1 plays like crap in comparison. Infantry combat really did boil down to HA, as MA was useless at ranges where it should have shined, and even in optimum ranges, it didn't do the damage it needed to. There was little to no reward for playing smart or well, just having the better ping and keeping a cross-hair over the target.

There's a reason a lot of the people in this thread doing a 180 in their opinion on how great many of PS1's mechanics were are only now playing again due to the free reactivations: they quit once before, but forgot why.

Unfortunately for me, I can't really play PS1: it locks up or crashes after a random amount of time. I wasn't exactly feeling too involved in firefights either. Impacts had all the feedback of someone shining a pen light in my direction from 40 meters away, and I'll be damned if I ever felt like I was actually making any kills despite 200ms. Never mind that the cycler sucks balls yet sounds and feels the best regardless.

It is a fun game in short bursts, but not something I'm willing to pay $15 a month for anymore. Especially with random crashes that I don't feel like hassling over.

Still, it's nice to see that some people can now see where some of us other vets are coming from in supporting the lower TTK's and other modern mechanics in PS2. They, coincidentally, don't dumb-down anything. PS1 by comparison is in fact the dumbed-down game, but only because 8 years ago this was actually fairly high-quality game-play. A lot has changed since then, both in technology and in expectations.
It's nice that you say people do 180s, but then most people are biased on both accounts and never looked objectively at this game or PS2. It's nice some people realise basic flaws, but at the same time they still don't see more important flaws.

Did you see Higby drive his Marauder and crash into trees?

Just wait till he has to gun as well with a unit eight times it's size in PS2 (bigger height/width and length)! It will be hilariously bad to watch and you could see it at E3 already with all the tanks without gunners crashing into rocks, buildings, each other and of course the cactii.

PS1 shows units should be designed for up to three players in a combat role, four if you're pushing it. Beyond that A-B transportation only. Combat units though are best for units of up to three-four players. It shows that it's easy to get gunners, as long as they feel useful (usualy unlike in the Raider or Prowler) and it also shows that players gravitate towards heavy firepower (HA, MAX) and fast, agile and flexible equipment (aircav). It shows the basic strategies of how people will use these things in combinations in PS2, yes even if you don't know the exact TTK.

PS1 also shows what is so good about ES units with regards to ease of identification of vehicle role and empire. It also better amplifies aesthetic design in the sense of sensory cues (you know when people got into a/your vehicle and in what spot because a door opened for instance). You see how important it is to have clear identification of which seats are occupied.

I also liked how T-Ray and Matt commented on the entry animations looking so nice (and giving such a nice emersion feel), which they probably noticed particularly due to playing PS2 which doesn't have that at all. Similarly, it's noticable how there are no backpacks in PS2 to loot, which can also be considered a step back. Etc etc. I hope you won't try to turn this into a "now you can see all the flaws and hail our new developer gods"-thread, because all the GOOD things from PS1 are ALSO in full display.

If anything, it gives everyone a chance to refresh what they did and did not like and verify if something stood the test of time. However, if you're only going to use this time to bash PS1 design, you're wasting an opportunity to get out as much feedback as you can.

Meaning from what I've seen between PS1 and PS2 E3, intuitive communication is on many levels still better in PS1, because short cuts in development resources and number of players on the map optimization decisions are made in PS2.

PS1 shows the impact of Galaxy Gunships on game play, and even more if these come en mass. This is a huge lesson for PS2 I hope people pick up on.


I also do hope that you realise that cone of fire management in PS1 was way more important than other games and that players who kept playing throughout are getting loads of easy kills because they can and the others can't control their CoF anymore. Of course that affects how gun play is experienced as well: if you've become rather crap at and unused to it, you are more likely to blame your tools. One should be careful to not make rash decisions.

Some outfit mates of mine been accused with hacking for simply running through a number of people in a row, just through cof management of a JH, MCG or Lasher and then getting healed/repaired by buddies and himself in between engagements.

As fast as you die now in PS1, also try to imagine how fast you will die in PS2 with more enemies and a faster TTK.


There's a lot more to learn from PS1 and yes, it shouldn't be a carbon copy, but one should be careful of only learning one-sided lessons by looking at it through rose-teinted PS2/"modern" goggles.

Last edited by Figment; 2012-07-01 at 05:33 AM.
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Old 2012-07-01, 05:35 AM   [Ignore Me] #77
HenchAnt
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Re: Reality check -- playing PS1 for the past three days


I was on during EU hours as NC (support, CE and AA certs), and it was quite nice.

While the lack of outfits meant that things were done quite a bit less efficient than they used to a few years ago, there were quite a few open squads that tried to get things done in a focused way.

While CR5 were often contradictory (like when TR and VS were invading Searhus at the same time), there were also respected regulars like Pointman who got things into order.

And most of the time, we had at least one AMS at the current target base, one or two Lodestars near the current hot spot and most bases with some basic CE defense. When playing AA max, I often had another AA max in view range so we could cover each other.

What was sometimes lacking was organized ground vehicle action. Especially on Friday, the Magrider was popular with the NC because he could be driven solo.

So while things could of course have been better, they were still far from bad.


But playing Planetside again also showed its shortcomings in basic game mechanics, especially infantry combat. Inside, its a HA meatgrinder with lots of door and stair camping. Outside its a snipe fest while being farmed by air cav.

So I'm really looking forward to Planetside2, with a better weapon balance and a shorter, more fun, TTK for both infantry and vehicles.
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Old 2012-07-01, 06:56 AM   [Ignore Me] #78
ringring
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Re: Reality check -- playing PS1 for the past three days


Nice post Figgy....
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Old 2012-07-01, 08:24 AM   [Ignore Me] #79
Littleman
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Re: Reality check -- playing PS1 for the past three days


Originally Posted by Figment View Post
-Lot's o' misdirected text-
Wow... sounds like you missed reading half the thread. There's a reason for 1 person vehicles. No one should have to spam VNG in vain. Of course a tank/gunner team is better, in PS2 they get to roll out on their own however. Then again, some may prefer to trust their own aim than rely on some random to shoot at what they need to shoot at, and accurately. Joining an outfit is not the fix all: they can have pretty $#!%%& players too.

CoF management IS NOT hard to handle... it's stupidly easy, especially with a JH... MA just SUCKS in comparison to HA at short ranges, and at longer ranges, your TTK's drop so drastically it makes MA almost not worth using. Too much ammo put down range for too little positive result.

It's common practice to fight, recover, fight, recover. Doesn't change that the gun play in this game, for the most part, is pretty mind numbing due to long TTK's and the way the game and weaponry works as a whole.

Remember next time, opinions are one's own. I'm more interested in criticizing PS1 regarding the hot button topics on this forum for PS2. They didn't include galaxy gun ships, nor did I experience said gun ships in my attempted return before another lovely CTD. I think the forum base already agreed E/E animations for vehicles would be nice to have in PS2. Little reason to use PS1 to back that up. As for back packs, SOE has long since already stated they want empires to remain strictly themselves, so no looting mechanics. Weapon modifications can probably get your cycler close to acting like a gauss rifle though. Have fun with that.
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Old 2012-07-01, 09:46 AM   [Ignore Me] #80
Figment
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Re: Reality check -- playing PS1 for the past three days


Nice how you use the term "misdirected", mr righteous.

Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
Wow... sounds like you missed reading half the thread. There's a reason for 1 person vehicles. No one should have to spam VNG in vain.
Uhm, yeah they do have to spam "in vain"? Otherwise they get too much power per player as individualist players? The problem though isn't spamming in vain, it's not organizing your own group of players and expecting to lure randoms into your units. That's an organizational and distrust issue of the player vs its gunners, not a unit design issue.

People simply don't want randoms to gun or gun for random drivers as those are more likely to be crap at their role. It's a trust issue and a privacy issue (only play with people you know). So by making people more individual... you're saying they'd get to know eachother better and this would eleviate the problem, especially by making each individual driver stronger, but also crappier because of the distractions of shooting? Hah. Right. Awesome logic. Not.

Further discouraging organization only makes teamplay worse. But hey, didn't think about that, did you? On the individualist bandwagon are we?

Of course a tank/gunner team is better, in PS2 they get to roll out on their own however. Then again, some may prefer to trust their own aim than rely on some random to shoot at what they need to shoot at, and accurately. Joining an outfit is not the fix all: they can have pretty $#!%%& players too.
Yes, they can have crap players. So get into another outfit or train them. Your point is "people might suck" and conclude "stop working together with people in a MMO" is the best solution?

Ooookay.

CoF management IS NOT hard to handle... it's stupidly easy, especially with a JH... MA just SUCKS in comparison to HA at short ranges, and at longer ranges, your TTK's drop so drastically it makes MA almost not worth using. Too much ammo put down range for too little positive result.
You should play more and do better observations. People spam Gausses continuously without cone of fire control (dosing rate of fire) and then wonder why they get pwned and blame the Gauss.

FFS man. Don't base your argument on your own experience only. Loads of people cannot control the CoF of their weapons and it's very easy to see who can or cannot. And yes, with a shotgun it's easier: it means let people get in close.

Loads of people use shotguns at too long ranges for PS1 and get pwned. >__>

It's common practice to fight, recover, fight, recover. Doesn't change that the gun play in this game, for the most part, is pretty mind numbing due to long TTK's and the way the game and weaponry works as a whole.
Didn't I say something at the start of my long post? Hmm where was it... Let's see... Oh here it is, the very first line of text:

Originally Posted by Figment
On some points like gun play sure, on others, not so much.
Oh dear, I wonder what that could mean.

Remember next time, opinions are one's own. I'm more interested in criticizing PS1 regarding the hot button topics on this forum for PS2. They didn't include galaxy gun ships,
They did...

nor did I experience said gun ships in my attempted return before another lovely CTD.
That... is really down to your hardware and drivers and incompatibility issues.

I think the forum base already agreed E/E animations for vehicles would be nice to have in PS2. Little reason to use PS1 to back that up.
As I said it just verifies the good bits. So how is that misdirected again? I never said it was a NEW point, did I?

As for back packs, SOE has long since already stated they want empires to remain strictly themselves, so no looting mechanics. Weapon modifications can probably get your cycler close to acting like a gauss rifle though. Have fun with that.
Actually what they said was they didn't know if they'd put it in because they didn't know how to best deal with sidegrades. Meaning how to let or prevent someone from using an enemy gun with a specific sidegrade or people bypassing the sidegrade system by having someone supply friendlies or enemies with sidegrades they shouldn't have access to.

The staying strictly to themselves is not true either, as they created a lot of NS equipment.


And for the record, even if they would decide to keep things strictly to themselves - mostly to reduce the amount of textures needed - this too is a design decision that is allowed to be questioned btw.

Last edited by Figment; 2012-07-01 at 09:49 AM.
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