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Old 2012-12-20, 10:22 AM   [Ignore Me] #16
Bardock
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Sadly it seems strategy and teamplay is dead in PS2, the zerg rules all.

Although I have pulled off some great maneuvers together with my small outfit ("Beltain" on Miller), we always end up getting stomped on by the giant zerg boot at some point unless we take a huge stroll around it, which we usually try to do.
(Wrote a long ramble here that generally says the game is broken, but deleted it because I don't want to go too much off topic).

Bottom line: IMO PS2 in its current iteration clearly favours great numbers; zerg or be zerged. Prepare to be assimilated.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:23 AM   [Ignore Me] #17
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by Beerbeer View Post
The problem is server population.

Merging servers would provide for more smaller platoon level action on the periphery of the the main zerg and brighten up activity on multiple continents.

Simple solution.
I'd disagree.
This problem occurs on poplocked continents as well as those not.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:24 AM   [Ignore Me] #18
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


exactly my point about **** and outfits just like them. they need to learn actual skill, not zerg tactics -__-"

Last edited by Hamma; 2012-12-20 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:25 AM   [Ignore Me] #19
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by Beerbeer View Post
The problem is server population.

Merging servers would provide for more smaller platoon level action on the periphery of the the main zerg and brighten up activity on multiple continents.

Simple solution.
Problem is also that you cannot know where is the friendly zerg. So you cannot try to act on the periphery of it.
I hope they'll add a way to know where are the friendly forces on the map, so you can at least try to contribute in a different way than just joining them.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:26 AM   [Ignore Me] #20
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


I always thought that the devs goal was to eventually just have massive outfits fighting each other.
Imagine if they could eventually have these outfits with 666 representatives each starting at their warp gates on a neutralized continent.
They battle it out until there is either one clear winner or a time limit is reached.
All streamed live to those who are willing to fork out for a PPV.
Anything for a $.

There is no room for smaller outfits in that model.

We dont suffer from it as much on Briggs.
We seem to have a lot of very small outfits who are not so much interested in the objectives but farming kills.
To be fair there probably isnt a great deal else for them in the game anyway, even if there was it probably wouldnt change anything for some of them.

I've seen /orders get used a bit for recruitment seeing as that functionality is easier to get that some basic upgrades.

I have no idea how the massive outfits run but is it safe to say that their new recruits are there simply as a controlled zerg?
No real community early on but a zerg you can direct which will in turn pick up others along the way.
In the end just overwhelming points with pure numbers.
Perhaps closer well known members go off and do something a little more tactical or entertaining elsewhere while the zerg rolls.

It could end up being very limited servers with half a dozen continents where the outfits are so large that there is only a few on each faction but they basically are the factions.
There would be enough of them to fill each continent.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:26 AM   [Ignore Me] #21
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by HiroshiChugi View Post
exactly my point about **** and outfits just like them. they need to learn actual skill, not zerg tactics -__-"
How come? There's nothing forcing them to do so... In fact it's more beneficial for everyone to zerg currently. Base defensibility changes along with more effective engineering deployables should help though.
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Last edited by Hamma; 2012-12-20 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:27 AM   [Ignore Me] #22
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


I know where your coming from Hamma, I run a small outfit my self, and find we are going down in numbers. I fail to see why 'Outfits' have been so neglected by SOE in a team game, surely it should have been a core feature, not some tack on addition with the promise of an Outfit expansion with in the next 12 months.

They should have included an in game section that allowed Outfits to advertise, and be searchable, not everyone checks forums, and spam invites don't normally yield good long term members, or a community feel.

There is so much they should have included at launch with PS2, for example:
  • Outfit decals, even if it was some sort of rudimentary system to make them, though being able to upload your own would be great. It would have allowed for outfits to be identified in the field, by simply added two decal slot on vehicles, they would have been room for people to display their outfit colors and personalize their vehicle of choice at the same time.
  • A better Outfit page would have worked too, with the MOTD, then separate slots for Outfit website, and VOIP of choice.

There again even if they had provided it, smaller outfit and non-zergfit, are not where the players are, due to the way the game works, by design or fault, its currently about the zerg, so your stuck either blending into it, or off else where doing stuff to help the empire as a whole, and not being noticed.

My Outfit is good at what we do, we have a very good understanding of the map, and the flow of the battles, and can quickly resolve the fight. The number of old style Tech Plant fights we ending in a few minutes of getting there is high, yet is goes unnoticed.

We too have started the thoughts of disbanding, and joining a larger outfit, so we have more people to play with.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:28 AM   [Ignore Me] #23
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


I think this game is designed for large outfits.. if you make a map that can hold 2,000 players then it just breeds large outfits to handle other large outfits. Not all large outfits are zergs though. 666th Devil Dogs are a large outfit, but they are very tactical using combined arms and Teamspeak. Ghosts of the Revolution and Azure Twilight are both large guilds that use similar command structures,tactics and teamspeak. I think people see large outfits and assume that most of them are zergs.

Part of the problem is that these large outfits are finding that it is a numbers game to a degree and to coupe with that the fastest way to combat other larger outfits is to recruit en masse.

It's an issue that has plagued large scale RvR MMORPGs since DAoC... how do you make large scale PvP events without creating the zerg mentality? I don't think it's something you can really avoid if you have large scale battles as your core design for the game.

I think that is partially why people would like to see more infantry centric objectives because it gives smaller outfits a chance to be on level ground through holding down choke points and possibly using better tactics to pin down larger outfits.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:30 AM   [Ignore Me] #24
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Being from a small outfit myself, a lot of what we do comes from just riding the "outskirts" of the zerg. We have to be very careful picking our next objective so we don't get crushed.

I don't think there is a real game mechanic that's ever been implemented in any game that stops one of human beings most basic instinct of grouping up. That said having more ground to fight over will make those groups spread thinner, so as we get more continents options for smaller outfits will get better IMO.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:30 AM   [Ignore Me] #25
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


There is always a place for small to medium size outfits even in PS2. AA batteries, Flanking the zerg force decimating one side of it. Capping strategic bases of value ultimately pushing the zerg where you want it to go. Ruses essentially.. There is plenty of things you can do.

Outfit X has 150 members in it and I like to consider us a medium size outfit. We are not as big as some of the other outfits on Connery but I like to think we make up for it with Quality skilled players in the outfit that allow us to compete with some of the bigger zergfits. We run with 2 to 3 squads every night for the most part sometimes more.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:31 AM   [Ignore Me] #26
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Well, right now there's one gigantic blob and not much else.

When it was packed, you could pick your fights amongst a variety of fights, of different intensity and population.

It may not be the only solution, but the current situation is all or nothing. Zerg or emptiness.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:31 AM   [Ignore Me] #27
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


The zerg is an effective tactic.

Witness:


Facing a zerg head on, or even hunkered down, is not going to have any different result than what has been demonstrated time and time again in history. One of the things that works as a weakness, is the lack of real time command and control with such a large element. If, for instance, several factional outfits decided to do what actual unit's in an army would do...establish and coordinate defensive lines, determine priority targets for heavy ground and air assets, and use flanking elements to disrupt and isloate the zerg...I dunno. It's something I would love to see.

Problem is, with those smaller outfits, you will have a hard time keeping real time command and control. Noone wants to listen to some other guy in game. Developing and executing startegic campaigns is a very real possibility...to include developing operational plans for the inevitable zerg surge. It requires a lot of factional cooperation on the server, and THAT I just don't see happening.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:35 AM   [Ignore Me] #28
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


What is an outfit?

"Informal An association of persons, especially a military unit or a business organization."

Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/outfit

My idea of an outfit is that it's like a US military division. I do think the idea is that you are to join up and coordinate with the rest of the faction (empire for you new to PS2) in order to take over land. We could probably use some more tools to facilitate or at least educate people on how to coordinate better.

The problem is that the "zerg" (rest of the factlion) won't always agree with each other and the really big issue that I think you and I (in my smaller current outfit) are seeing is that people do not stay around and defend because they are chasing the cert thirst in a reactionary way.

It truly does become a cat and mouse game. Too much offense, not enough defense. Too much re-action, not enough pre-thought action. Personally, I do not mind sitting around defending a point in order to prevent our resources from being cut off. It's a forward thinking non-reactive strategy. You become the thermostat, not the thermometer, in the temperature of battle.

Most people are not so patient and most outfit leaders don't want want their troops getting bored, so we see a lot of running in circles. I recently lead a random public squad and I felt this pressure internally, not from the reactions of my squad members, but in my thoughts, I wanted to give these guys a good fight but also do what was best for the Vanu Sovereignty.

It may be advisable to reward defenders more. Yet, it is upon the outfit, platoon, and squad leaders to balance what's good for their faction with that's fun for the moment. This is emergent sandbox gameplay and I would presume that we don't want any artificial silly defense reward when in the mind of the strategic, their is honor for holding the defense.

What I propose is rewarding the end game objective a bit more. Make it advantageous to work toward the final goal of a continent lock (or even planetary lock). Give people a bit more visual fluff (patches, player stats, etc) and maybe up or vary the rewards besides the 10% reduction on price of infantry, vehicle items.


TLDR:

It's up to the players to balance between defense and offense in an emergent sandbox style of gameplay. Do we need artificial means to accomplish balance? Do we need more tools to help people understand the strategies that help the entire faction? Do we need to reward the end-game more so that the rest of the faction aids the smaller outfits?
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Last edited by AnamNantom; 2012-12-20 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:38 AM   [Ignore Me] #29
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Yeah been going through similar issues with the small outfit I run with. So we decided to join one of the huge ones. We were then quickly disappointed by what we experianced, little more then the actual zerg in terms of utilising strategy/tactics.

So we left and reformed ourselves again and mainly carry out area denial for esf's and counter armour jazz. I suppose you gotta just find your niche.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:38 AM   [Ignore Me] #30
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


The zerg has taken over. My friend and I only get to play a couple of hours a week. So we never get an invite to join anything. We have been playing since early beta. What we are seeing is, PS2 turning into the "zerg wins". There is no answer to this. This will be the state of the game. Now the YouTubers....sad.
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