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Old 2003-04-15, 06:41 PM   [Ignore Me] #46
Wake
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^^^ *COUGH* A-10...flying pig...can fly back home with half of it's wing and a missing engine. *COUGH* B-17...could do the same thing only it was bigger. Anyways...they've made the phoenix harder to use since I first started using it. Yes it is easy to use. But anyone good enuff can avoid the dang thing. If you overshoot your target you won't get a second chance. And...it's very hard to take out an AI MAX of any race with the thing up close. You might get one missile off. Plus guys wore ain't always fair We use the same thing today in the U.S. military. However the one thing I would suggest is to make the missile faster. This makes it really hard to maneuver the missile to take out stuff behind buildings or walls even things like Mosquitos. Oh yeah, mosquitos I've found are harder to take out than anything cept the motorcycles. The mosquito merely has to move like two feet and you'll miss completely. Ok, now I am a pro-phoenix and I do love the dang thing but if you keep it true to the form but either A) Make it take even longer to reload or B) Make it fast enough so that it is harder to aim at moving targets then I think you'll see less people using it.
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Old 2003-04-15, 06:46 PM   [Ignore Me] #47
PR24
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*COUGH*
This is not RL
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Old 2003-04-15, 06:52 PM   [Ignore Me] #48
Happy lil Elf
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You're right, todays aircraft wouldn't stand up to a direct hit from a missile, which is why they go so fast

As long as I have a chance of dodging incoming missiles I'll be fine with it. It just worries me when I hear people saything things like "The TR striker on the other hand is the best AV weapon IMO. It makes all forms of enemy aircraft useless" it worries me as piloting is what I like to do best. Now granted that's probably an overstatement, but still.
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Old 2003-04-15, 06:57 PM   [Ignore Me] #49
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hrm.. I guess it's an overstatement if you stumble on a base where one guy has a striker and he's in the basement or something. The striker is the best AA weapon in the game flat out. Reavers are easy targets because the LOS is generally clear when firing up in the air so the thing gets lock, and it's easy to maintain lock. Mosquitos are comically easy to shoot down, dumbfire 3 missiles into the air and then move your reticle onto the mosquito and all the missiles will home in on the vehicle at the same time and take it out of the sky in what appears to be a one shot hit.
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Old 2003-04-15, 07:00 PM   [Ignore Me] #50
mr_luc
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That sounds like a good balance to me.

If they have AA weaponry, stay LOW and try to avoid missile lock situations. Risks/rewards for piloting. The reward is that, for the Reaver as an example, you can have a run where you kill 10-20 people without dying, just by carpet bombing unprepared infantry.
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Old 2003-04-15, 07:02 PM   [Ignore Me] #51
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After reading this thread it seems that there are two major complaints with the Pheonix. One: indirect fire, and two: that the Pheonix missles get more 'bang for the buck' then those of the other anti-vehicular weapons. Now, I'm not a beta-tester, (I'm one of those people that you're not allowed to give Tobacco, pornography, or beta slots to... ) but I do happen to have a couple of ideas to maybe help solve these issues (and maybe, if I'm a good little boy, the great and powerful beta-testers will carry these ideas to that wonderful place, where the magical Devs will listen to them ).

To solve the indirect fire problem, perhaps instead of removing the indirect attacks altogether, instead make them more difficult. After all (and correct me if I'm wrong) the devs haven't said that there should be no indirect fire, only that they thought that it should require a hefty amount of work and effort, perhaps more effort then it's worth. So, to make it more difficult, I would say make the missile easier to spot. Make the missile bigger, and the flare from the thruster brighter. Have there be an easily visible line connecting the missile and the firer. Maybe even make it travel slower so there's more time to see it, and it's easier to dodge.

And regarding the problem that the missiles themselves are too powerful, I should think that the answer to this one is fairly obvious. Make it so that the missles take more space, or that you can carry less of them in the same space. From what I've seen the Pheonix loads alot like a Bazooka, which means the missile are to big to go in anywhere other then directly into the barrel. The Striker, on the other hand has missiles that are small enough that they can be loaded into a clip in the back. Thus it seems logical that you could carry more Striker missles per invertory space then Pheonix missles. The primary complaint that I see is that the Striker requires more shots to kill something then the Pheonix, so making the latters missles larger should solve that.
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Old 2003-04-15, 07:15 PM   [Ignore Me] #52
Subliminal
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Well my friend you sound like you havent played yet or at least not NC, what nerfing could be done to the phoenix, they already butchered the damn thing to 5 seconds. I think its all a bunch of idiots rockin the boat, I have never heard any dev say that they are nerfing it any further. The chaingun on the otherhand will probably be nerfed in the near future. Id say all they would have to do is make it harder to aim, after all a gun like that wouldnt stay as stable as it does and in its current state any newb and their mother can mow down a normal infantry with it.
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Old 2003-04-15, 07:20 PM   [Ignore Me] #53
LLMerc
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Making the missile easier to see will not help one bit =) Well, not true, it may help an aircraft. However, AMS can't dodge it =) My main beef with indirect fire is inability to defend your AMS. You just can't, other than making a wall of infantry infront of the path of the missile.

As for the striker being too powerfull, pilots are way too smart today. I hardly ever kill a reaver anymore. I hurt it, but almost never kill a healthy reaver. First of all, boosters get you out of lock range in a matter of seconds, long before I can reload. Also, if you see the missile on radar before it hits, you can hit boosters and fly at the same speed (or almost same, as missile, untill you get out of lock range which is when the missiles go into dumbfire mode. Last but not least, duck behind cover, lock is lost, missiles are dumbfire. I've seen all of these used on me. And I like that. However, not being able to lock on a Phalnx turet or anything on a tower balcony sucks and should be fixed =)
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Old 2003-04-15, 07:22 PM   [Ignore Me] #54
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^point. The afterburners on the reaver do allow you to escape the striker range a lot of the time.
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Old 2003-04-15, 08:29 PM   [Ignore Me] #55
Vash
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Given the length of this thing and my bad mood, I'm not sure what else I can really add to this... but I'll at least touch on remarks that I found silly

(disclaimer: The below are opinions generated by a bad mood. It's not my goal to piss off anyone, but if I manage to, I appologize in advance. There will also be a lot of quoting/'post disecting, so if that kind of post annoys you, skip it)


Requiring the Phoenix's shooter have LOS basically makes the weapon useless. Once you pop up, aquire your target and fire, you're basically sniper fodder until you fly your missiles to the target. The Striker, obviously doesnt have this problem since you can run around, dodging fire while your missiles hit home.

3 NC soldiers grab phoenixes and take out the AMS without any work, shooting from the safety of the base
You parked too close and/or out in the open. Try again
It's not like you can kill an AMS with just a handful of Phoenixes either. It takes steady fire even from the Vanguard to kill one.
Also worth mentioning that you cannot see the 'cloak bubble' through the Phoenix's camera.

phoenix can be used against infantry
Yes, but it's a huge waste of ammo. The only infantry worth targetting with a Phoenix are snipers, and even then it's only a feeble attempt to drive them away.

Phoenix is my MAJOR beef with the game, and as some people said, I will not buy the game if it stays as is.
I could say the same about the mini-chaingun, and like the phoenix, I'm sure I'm not alone. As it stands that thing has firepower on par with a MAX.
(I wouldnt actually not buy it, I'm far too addicted to it already )
Also, I dont feel the Jackhammer needs a "significant boost." It just needs to have an effective range greater than 'spitting distance'

First off, the phoenix does more damage with a single rocket than either of the remaining two anti vehicle weapons. It takes 5 strikers to kill a reaver, 15+ for an AMS. carrying 3 crates of striker missiles, I can only take out 2 reavers, 3 maxes and not even a single AMS
First off, that's the whole point. The NC is supposed to do more damage per shot.
Carrying 3 crates of Phoenix missiles, I can only take out 3 reavers, and 3 maxes. I cant comment on the AMS since I've never attacked one without at least half a dozen people (at CLOSE RANGE), often with either armor or air support. But I'd be willing to bet I couldnt 'solo' and AMS with 3 crates either, heh

A side arm would do a MUCH better job than the striker [against infantry].
A sidearm would be better than the phoenix against infantry as well... 9 AMP bullets vs half a dozen phoenixes...

It's the issue of grief points. It's much easier to get grief points while in a close quarters battle, than when you are lobbing rockets over a hill and sniping with the medium weapon which also works well in close quarters.
Lobbing rockets over a hill doesnt capture a base. The Lasher and Chaingun also own the Gauss in CQB.
And if/when the Jackhammer becomes worth using, an auto-shotgun isnt going to magically avoid hitting friendlies either, you know.

A load of NC get up on a hill way to taf to be hit with a CG and fire pheonix's all day long. We where in a tower and the NC where firing from an AMS from a distance away so ammo was unlimited.
They where hitting the door one after another and 3 shots to a full health max and you are dead. Well when you have 4-6 people firing these one after another step in the door once and boom you are dead.
- PR24
Maybe you should've stopped running out the door then? Get a handful of people together to either go out the backdoor or spawn somewhere else and flank their asses. Or how about sending a few reavers on a strafing run on their AMS? Either way you'll likely be successful, considering they're concentrating so hard on your tower's front door

One fact remains, the Phoenix is still artillery, its a weapon that does not require LOS, something that the dev's were against since day one.
I'm personally suprised its still in the game myself - Hamma
Agreed, and if they're going to, they'd better change it pretty damn quick before beta ends... otherwise they'll just be pissing off legions of customers.

Expanding on the whole 'phoenix = artillery' thing, it's entirely too easy to knock out spitfires with it. All you have to do is fly over the wall or through the front gate to knock them out without fear.
I admit I've done this more than a few times myself, and it must be hell for my fellow engineers on the other teams

Though maybe giving Spitfires the ability to shoot down Phoenixes would help the whole artillery issue... <shrug>


Either way, that's enough of that for one post...

Sorry if my opinions rub any of you the wrong way
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Old 2003-04-15, 08:47 PM   [Ignore Me] #56
zMessiahz
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Originally posted by Led
Every empire has their advantage. USE YOURS. If you engage the opponent on their ground on their terms, you LOSE. I used to whine all the damn time about chaingunners too, but you know what? I got smart. I no longer have a problem with them. Plus I can also loot and use them now

/endrant

Do they? And what, pray tell, is the Vanu's advantage as the game stands? No, I have not played. But I can tell you something... I have read endless sniveling posts about how much the Phoeniz is hated. Same goes for the Gauss and Chaingun. Never once have I read about a Vanu weapon/armor/vehicle that is hated. Some poeple claim that a few Vanu weapons are "OK". Some even say the Vanu AI MAX is "pretty good". That statement is usually followed by the boast "but my AI MAX will kill it every time".

So let me ask you again, what exactly is the Vanu's advantage?

Don't take the lame way out and say the jump jets on the MAX. Yes, that is cool and an advantage, but no more so then what the other two empire MAX's can do. It seems the only case of different abilities between the empires that no one bitches about.

I don't mind the idea of fearing the NC AV weapon and Med Assault weapon, nor do I mind fearing the TR Heavy Assault weapon or AI MAX. However, I DO mind the Vanu having nothing that the other two fear.
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Old 2003-04-15, 09:00 PM   [Ignore Me] #57
Led
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The vanu are being adjusted, it is common knowledge. And no, their weapons in their current state are not worthless. They just do not have the glitz other empires weapons have (accuracy on the gauss, bullet spam from chaingun, etc). I have no problem picking up a pulsar from a dead vanu when I run out of ammo, hell it is better than the gauss in close quarters fights. And it is better than the cycler at long range fights.

The lasher also got an upgrade, so to speak. They changed the lashing effect so that it would not hurt people right around the user when he starts firing, I saw more lashers that same day. It is a very nasty weapon in close quarters, I do not discount it at all

The vanu AI max is their shining star, so to speak. A good player in one of those can put on a whole world of hurt.

The vanu will be a force to reckon with when they are finished.
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Old 2003-04-15, 09:04 PM   [Ignore Me] #58
LLMerc
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The only MAX I fear in an outdoor fight is the vanu MAX. If used right =) Most of them decide to use boosters and go up, which only gives me more time to lock on with the striker. The ones that fly at you ... they are the ones that also have a collection of my dog tags.

NC MAX goes down almost too easy when outdoors =) I haven't faced off against a TR one though. Indoors, I'd have to say NC one is the hardest, although I hear TR is prety tough. Vanu is still no laughing batter. And the fact they can go into a base anywhere they wish .... makes for quite a strong oponent. So yes, Vanu AI max is, IMO the best of the 3. It is also the only one with AP ammo
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Old 2003-04-15, 09:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #59
zMessiahz
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Heh. Yes hopefully they will be evened out when they were done. It is my sincerest hope, though, that the Vanu's Shining Star is not something about wich the other empires say "It's pretty good". Not when they moan constantly about the 3rd empire's shining star at least.

As it stands the Vanu AI MAX has respect, but not fear like TR and NC weapons mentioned earlier. Not to mention that the TR AI MAX has the same respect as the Vanu AI MAX.
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Old 2003-04-15, 09:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #60
Camping Carl
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Every empire has their advantage. USE YOURS. If you engage the opponent on their ground on their terms, you LOSE.
Led, you took the words right out of my mouth. If the enemy is being cheap with phoenixes, it's your fault for not thinking of a counter-strategy.

Everyone wants this to be a simple, balanced, deathmatch. But the fact is, in some areas the enemy should have a clear advantage over you, and you over them in other ways. That way, you have to rely on your brain and focus on what your empire is good at, not complain because you aren't perfectly matched with your enemy in all areas.

Except for the vanu tho, they obviously need improvments. But if they speed up the lancer firing a little, and improve the pulsar, there ya go. (but that's just how I'd do it)
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